Author Topic: Nissan's upcoming electric car  (Read 2345 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 08:01:01 AM »
To bad...

Electric cars are currently pollute more than a similar gas powered vehicle if the electricity comes from carbon producing power plants. Even so, the electric batteries take enormous amounts of energy (usually carbon based) to produce. A few solar cells would a good option but that would take extra charging time.

Strip

don't forget all the crap created in the construction of the batteries.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 08:20:03 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf


Nissan Leaf.

Less pricy than the stupid Volt .. but still too pricy to make it dominant in the market.


Speaking as muyself and NOT as a corporate spokesperson...

One word: Gay...

Two more words: commercially unfeasible

Four more words, an acronym, and a three-word parenthetical: performs worse than its IC counterparts (in all respects)

As a veteran of the Ranger EV, BX179 (cancelled), USPS ECRV, and Focus FCEV programs, I can tell you about fifty bazillion reasons why these things are a politically correct but otherwise completely foolish pipe dream.

Let's start with power density, shall we..? How about the inherent advantage of not having to carry your own oxidizer..?

However, if you're the type of technopeasant who thinks these to be a good idea (they aren't - indeed, aren't even especially green for m a closed-loop perspective), I encourage you to buy/lease one. If Nissan is like Ford, they'll subsidize you so that you don't get all crabby about the bill of goods you just bought.


Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 08:21:51 AM »
Canada also has a LOT of hydro, would seem to be a good plan for up there.

As for the US, well I'd like to see the figures.

Sure you may get some oil being burned to move coal to a generating plant.
But according to one ad I saw on TV it was 436 miles per ton of cargo per gallon of fuel.

Now you really figure that is polluting more than a 14 mph car?

Obviously wind, solar, hydro are the way to go. And the country is gearing up for it.
North Dakota has a chance to lead the country in wind, but we have to build the transmission lines first.
Can have all the power in the world, but without the infrastructure its useless. That takes time to build.

Also solar is taking big steps forward, but again, it takes time to get it R&D'd, get it into a product, and off to market.




forget about transporting the stuff. if i recall, coal burns dirtier than pretty much anything......
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 08:55:22 AM »
I wanted a source that sais that an electric car pollutes more than a similar gas powered vehicle.

Have you forgotten the extra conversion step used to generate the electricity? Perhaps you've gorgotten about the manufacturing required. If you think of cost as a rough proxy of energy involved, it starts to make a little more sense. Batteries are costly  -in the extreme. Even lead-acid is pretty expensive when used for motive power - figure $12k-15k for a modern pba battpak, and another several thousand for energy management and motors. It only goes up by orders of magnitude for things like NiMH, much less LiIon. Ecostar, from the early 90's, used a Sodium-based "hot" battery (near 300 degree operating temp). The results were somewhat predictable.

Try this: http://ideas.repec.org/p/cdl/itsdav/ucd-its-rep-01-16.html

Bottom line: you don't get there from here today - not wiithout more commercially viable batteries. That's the fundamental probelm - batteries are lousy energy storage devices when compared to petrochemicals, at least as used. One of the big advantages of IC, as noted before, is that it draws its oxygen from the atmosphere. The battery carries it internally.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 10:18:09 AM »
One big advantage that electric car have in term of energy useage is that they can convert kinetic energy BACK to electricity. The only real gain of stupid hybrid cars over normal fuel engines is when they break and recharge some of the energy back to the batteries. The energy still comes from fossil fuel being burnt in a normal engine in hybrids.

The whole hybrid idea is stupid. A pure electric car get its energy from the grid. The power to the grid may come from various sources, so greener than others, but in a power plant there is the capability to treat the by-products better (at least in principal). I don't know about energy conversion efficiency, but I hope it is better for a power plant than an internal combustion engine. Hybrids still burn fuel like a normal car and are just stupidly complicated by having a redundant engine. Not to mention that the miles per gallons is not better than what you get from simply driving a slightly smaller car.

If one insists on "self recharge" option, get an electric car with a small power generator in it - you don't have to produce the electricity at a power required to maintain long cruise - you charge it when stationary or extend your range by charging as you drive. It also saves the whole transmission of the combustion engine to the wheels - instead you have two wires that go to the electric engine. The RPM is independent of the driving speed so the generator can always work in optimal RPM regardless of what the car is doing = less pollution. If the generator is small you can decide to take it out of the car for regular short commutes and have a full electric car - save weight, save energy, get better performance, get more cargo space. Want to drive far? put it back in, connect two wires and the exhaust and you have a long range "hybrid". Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.

Electric car makes sense. Electric cars with generators makes more sense. Hybrids makes no sense.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 10:21:36 AM »

The whole hybrid idea is stupid. A pure electric car get its energy from the grid. The power to the grid may come from various sources, so greener than others, but in a power plant there is the capability to treat the by-products better (at least in principal). I don't know about energy conversion efficiency, but I hope it is better for a power plant than an internal combustion engine.

Maybe, but it's still another step - from input fuel to the plant (usually fossil) to electric, to kinetic... The IC goes straight from fossil to kinetic. Conversion processes being what they are, that's a big hit.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 10:23:28 AM »
If one insists on "self recharge" option, get an electric car with a small power generator in it - you don't have to produce the electricity at a power required to maintain long cruise - you charge it when stationary or extend your range by charging as you drive. It also saves the whole transmission of the combustion engine to the wheels - instead you have two wires that go to the electric engine. The RPM is independent of the driving speed so the generator can always work in optimal RPM regardless of what the car is doing = less pollution. If the generator is small you can decide to take it out of the car for regular short commutes and have a full electric car - save weight, save energy, get better performance, get more cargo space. Want to drive far? put it back in, connect two wires and the exhaust and you have a long range "hybrid". Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.

Electric car makes sense. Electric cars with generators makes more sense. Hybrids makes no sense.

self recharge = serial hybrid... You have to upsize the battery with the attendant weight penalty.

Electric car only makes sense if battery technology improves radically.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 10:32:53 AM »
self recharge = serial hybrid... You have to upsize the battery with the attendant weight penalty.

Electric car only makes sense if battery technology improves radically.
Yes, that is why what I said does not exist yet:
Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.
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Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 10:46:51 AM »
I'll pass.... ordered this for my Daughter. Should be arriving in 3 weeks.

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Offline john9001

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 10:58:46 AM »
is it a berlinetta?

Offline saggs

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2010, 12:34:27 PM »
Examples please.

Ok: I don't have any statistics, and I'm to lazy to find any, ;) but I am a thinker.  As I see it here is how it breaks down, first production, an electric car requires just as must steel (frame, chassis, body), petroleum products, (plastic interior, foam seats, carpet) and rubber (belts, hoses, tires) as does a internal combustion car of similar size.  The production of all of these products are rather high as far as the pollution they put out.

So Electric and Combustion are the same so far.  Now the differences.

Combustion cars have an engine made from iron or aluminum usually.  Electric cars have a motor made with a whole lot of copper and magnets.  The mining/smelting of iron/aluminum/copper all pollute a lot.

So they're still even.

Now a combustion car has a gas tank, not much to it, a electric car has a whole bunch of probably NiMH or NiCD batteries.  Nickel mines, and nickel smelting are every bit as polluting as iron is.  Nickel mines are usually huge open pit mines (like copper) which tear up thousands of acres of land, and the smelters chuck out tons of air pollution.  Also when the car wears out, or crashed those batteries are very hazardous to dispose of, you just throw them in a landfill and the acid is libel to leak out and pollute ground water.

So on this one a combustion car definitely pollutes much less.

As for power your either sucking oil out of the ground refining it, and burning it right in the vehicle.  Or you using oil, coal, nuclear, wind whatever, they all still create pollution and problems and your just moving it to another location.  I've heard that burning oil to make electricity energy is more efficient then burning it to create combustion energy.  So the electric probably pollutes less here.

So they are tied again. 

Plus consider this, assume everyone in the US replaced all their gas/diesel cars with electric cars tomorrow.  Do you think the current electric grid could handle it?  Of course not.  We would need to build dozens and dozens of new power plants all over.  We'd just be replacing the pollution created by oil drilling/refining, with pollution from electric power plants.  Except not really because not all of the oil goes to cars.  Some goes to Semi tractors needed to move all the goods we move, some goes to home heating oil, some goes to airlines, some goes to production of plastics, foams and carpet.  So we'd still need lots of oil, in addition to dozens of new power plants.

Those who think an electric car has less negative impact on the environment are deluding themselves.

I do not think we have the technology that will break us off oil in the long-term yet, if we do I haven't seen it.  Hybrids and electric cars are just silly gimmicks to me.  I laugh at Toyota bragging because their Prius gets 45 mpg.  BIG WUP, my buddies 1986 VW Rabbit diesel gets 55 mpg and that's 25 yr old diesel technology, the new turbos are much more efficient.  I think a new diesel VW Golf gets 65+ mpg.  But why they won't/can't sell more diesel small cars in the US is a rant for another day.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »
That's not bad.

I'd gently correct you on a couple of points.

First, it's not as efficient to convert coal or natural gas to electricity, then to kinetic as it is to convert a direct product of fractional distillation (octane) to kinetic. The first is a two-step conversion with losses in each step. However, it is true that it's easier to capture emissions at a few large sources than millions of smaller ones. However, modern catalytics are orders of magnitude better than early smog controls. Indeed, many IC's now qualify to ULEV standards.

Second, battery life tends shorter. I know this one firsthand because, about ten years ago, I was responsible for setting up the closed-loop system around Ranger EV packs. We were getting, at the time, about 2 years out of a lead-acid pack and 3 out of NiMH. After that, you need to remanufacture and reinstall. That's costly and requires a veritable industrial complex to process the waste and to recapture the pack materials for reuse. That's energy intensive.

I'd point at IC as better - and if it wasn't, it wouldn't be less costly. Energy and effort cost - and usually higher energy and effort input translate to higher resource usage. The only difference is in emissions and modern emissions controls are so much better that I think you give up very little on the back end.

Now, ask me about waste heat and how reusing wasted exhaust heat makes hybrid a much better idea than it is right now... I've been trying to sell this idea and have a very good presentation surveying state of the art in onboard ernergy recapture via Rankine cycle heat recovery. Alas, unsaleable here... for reasons I'd best not explore here.

That aside, when you look at the current thermal efficiency of the IC engine (and how approximately as much input energy goes out as waste heat as is captured to useful mechanical energy), you'll recognize that it can be made significantly more efficient - i.e., 100 years of development and it ain't there yet.


So, any VC chasers out there who'd like to help write a biz plan to get a little MEDC funding?
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Offline saggs

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 01:16:43 PM »
That's not bad.

I'd gently correct you on a couple of points.

No problem, like I said I'm no expert, just a thinker, and my thinking tells me that electric cars are just a marketing gimmick to catch gullible people who want to "save the planet".

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2010, 01:19:41 PM »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Nissan's upcoming electric car
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2010, 01:23:22 PM »
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