Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vinkman on February 22, 2010, 10:25:11 AM
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Ords bunkers seem very easy to destroy. A simple short machine gun burst will blow one up. I think this makes it way too easy for GV to harass bases. Not TAKE bases but harass them. A single flak or Tank spawns near the base and drives over and shoots the ords out (or they are shot out by a single plane). This forces machine gun/ cannon attacks to clear him out which result in many dead planes before someone gets him. Often a good fight between two bases can turned on the appearance of a single Wirble. The whirb start picking off fighters on take off, there no ords to stop him and multiple planes are often disctracted from getting back in the air fight focus on a lone whirb. This causes too many fighters to have to remain low at there own base, which allows the airborn enemy to migrate to the base and cap it. Or pilots are forced to get out of planes and get in GVs with the same result. Option 3 is to take off from another base (usually a sector or more away and fly back with ords, only to have the GV re-up in seconds. And the same can be said for Fleets. One fleet plane comes in and straifs out the ords, and the fleet can attack and bomb with impunity.
I understand that folks like GVs but it seems to me that the balance is out of whack when ords are so easily taken out.
does anyone else think the ords bunkers should be harder?
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Nope.
Ord bunkers, same as a town building, 250 pounds of explosive.
Now honestly, I've gone back and forth on this one. Of all the things on the base, the ord bunkers should be a little tougher maybe, but certainly not anything like doubling it to 500lbs. Maybe 300? No wait, I'm arguing for the other side here.............. :bolt:
Nope.
:rolleyes:
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Nope.
Ord bunkers, same as a town building, 250 pounds of explosive.
Now honestly, I've gone back and forth on this one. Of all the things on the base, the ord bunkers should be a little tougher maybe, but certainly not anything like doubling it to 500lbs. Maybe 300? No wait, I'm arguing for the other side here.............. :bolt:
Nope.
:rolleyes:
Town building can be shot out with machine guns. What exactly do you mean by 'Nope'?
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So can Fighter Hangers........... And every other thing in the game.
I'm just saying that bunkers, troops, fuel, town buildings are valued at 250lbs. The .50 in an M3 can knock an ord bunker down sure, but it's going to take a while relative to 4 Hispanos. Even say an F6F with 6 .50 cals is going to need 2 passes (depending on E & convergence of course)
So "nope" refers to the idea that they are probably tough enough.
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Hardness of the ords bunkers don't matter much because 90% of player in AH don't even understand the importance of destroying them. They leave ords up and take a CV right up to a base and then wonder why the CV got sunk. You can save the CV or stop an attack in it's tracks by just simply porking ords at a air base and then porking the troops and supplies at the connecting V-base so the air base can't be resupplied. One P-51 can pork all ords at a larger air base or all troops at a V-base. This is even more important to do if your side is out numbered. This most times actually makes for an even bigger fur ball situations because they will be forced to use tanks in place of bombs to kill a town. This makes for better GV action while more fighters are upped to fend off IL-2s that are killing their tanks you can up a fighter to kill off the GV fighter cover. If you leave ords up they just bomb down the base kill ack and town and take the place from under you. Try this next time you want to take a CV in for a base capture or you want to save a base from being taken it works and you only need two or three heavy P-51s to do it.
R-105
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So can Fighter Hangers........... And every other thing in the game.
I'm just saying that bunkers, troops, fuel, town buildings are valued at 250lbs. The .50 in an M3 can knock an ord bunker down sure, but it's going to take a while relative to 4 Hispanos. Even say an F6F with 6 .50 cals is going to need 2 passes (depending on E & convergence of course)
So "nope" refers to the idea that they are probably tough enough.
With the strategic importance of Ords, 250 is not enough. You have to take all the town buildings so multiply 250lbs time 20-25 buildings. Troops and fuel do not matter when defending the base. Ords are a key factor in the base's ability to defend itself, like hangars. They should be as tough as a hangar.
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EEK...... dam you Vinkman, :furious , now you got me going the other way on it again............ LOL
You make a rather valid point about it. But now how about this..... What if we doubled/tripled the amount of ord's at every air base..........?
Either that or we make them a little bigger and make them say 1000lbs.............
<S> Vinkman <S>
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Hardness of the ords bunkers don't matter much because 90% of player in AH don't even understand the importance of destroying them. They leave ords up and take a CV right up to a base and then wonder why the CV got sunk. You can save the CV or stop an attack in it's tracks by just simply porking ords at a air base and then porking the troops and supplies at the connecting V-base so the air base can't be resupplied. One P-51 can pork all ords at a larger air base or all troops at a V-base. This is even more important to do if your side is out numbered. This most times actually makes for an even bigger fur ball situations because they will be forced to use tanks in place of bombs to kill a town. This makes for better GV action while more fighters are upped to fend off IL-2s that are killing their tanks you can up a fighter to kill off the GV fighter cover. If you leave ords up they just bomb down the base kill ack and town and take the place from under you. Try this next time you want to take a CV in for a base capture or you want to save a base from being taken it works and you only need two or three heavy P-51s to do it.
R-105
I agree, in that what you describe is what ends up happenning, but I don't think that's better furballing. Good furballing is equal numbers of planes in a sustained fight over neutral territory. I think The IL-2s being attacked by bandits over their own field is Capping. This is where the enemy is over your base vulching and picking. 20-30 pilot's fun can be affected by a single GV showing up and wreking havoc. All because ords are just too soft. Make em harder and the planes have a chance to react to the GV while they still have the ability to do so.
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EEK...... dam you Vinkman, :furious , now you got me going the other way on it again............ LOL
You make a rather valid point about it. But now how about this..... What if we doubled/tripled the amount of ord's at every air base..........?
Either that or we make them a little bigger and make them say 1000lbs.............
<S> Vinkman <S>
<S> LLogan. That would work too, it's just that they would have to modify all the maps. So in the short term, toughening them up would be faster/easier.
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make them say 1000lbs.............
That makes sense. It is way too easy for a single plane to take out ords. Concrete should be way tougher than the pup tents the troops are napping in. Added to the fact that there are double the number of troop tents compared to ord bunkers (which makes it harder for the defense to pork). It can take a single fighter well under 10 minutes to kill ords at a base but much longer for one guy to resupply the base. It is more difficult to kill all of the enemy troop tents (compounded by the usual #s advantage the attacking force has to defend it's own fields). The current set up favors the attackers IMO.
I fly solo 99% of the time, so I'm biased towards the defense. :P
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But, they're full of explosives..... :x
The easy fix is just add more ord bunkers. Although, I like the 300-400lbs of ordinance to kill them vs. 250.
wrongway
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Ords bunkers seem very easy to destroy. A simple short machine gun burst will blow one up. I think this makes it way too easy for GV to harass bases.
Before the introduction of the 37mm Il-2 and the 75mm B-25H I would have agreed with the last sentence, but now not anymore.
But I have another thought on this problem. For me it's not the fact that "only" 250lbs are sufficient to blow an ord bunker (or town building) up. A 250lbs bomb is quite an amount of *boom*. - It's the fact that cannon & MG damage is vastly scaled up vs structures: a single .50cal round is worth 1 pound of bomb damage, a 20mm round 4 pounds, a 37mm (Ostwind) 15.6
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Before the introduction of the 37mm Il-2 and the 75mm B-25H I would have agreed with the last sentence, but now not anymore.
But I have another thought on this problem. For me it's not the fact that "only" 250lbs are sufficient to blow an ord bunker (or town building) up. A 250lbs bomb is quite an amount of *boom*. - It's the fact that cannon & MG damage is vastly scaled up vs structures: a single .50cal round is worth 1 pound of bomb damage, a 20mm round 4 pounds, a 37mm (Ostwind) 15.6
I'm not against having to bomb them to destroy them, even if that means 250 lbs worth, because someone still has to fly in heavy to take them out. Perhaps then, instead of upping the limit, the bullet round can not be scaled up for an ords bunker. I wonder if HTC can selectively scale them up or if all buildings need to be treated the same.
Either way, good point Lusche, that would be another way to approach the problem.
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Or maybe even remove the ability for anything .50 cal or smaller to cause damage.......... :eek:
Cannons, rockets or bombs only. :cheers:
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or just up a tank............ or hop in one of the field guns
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Get off your lazy ars and fly from another field and kill him.... or better yet kill him with a Hurri IID or a B25H or an IL-2 with there guns before he get to the field. All above listed aircraft can kill ANY tank if used properly with just its GUN
If your too lazy or slow or, or too poor a player to kill a GV with the available options you derserve to get spawn camped on the runway for the 15min it takes a VH to come up after its taken out.
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Instead of hardening the ammo bunkers why not just add more? Scatter oh, say 75 or 80 around the field. They can't possibly take them all out. It cuts down on the resupply thing too. :D
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Just to put it in perspective how fast these 250lb are gunned down:
Single .50 = 18 seconds
6 x .50 = 3 seconds
2 x Hispanos = 2,5 seconds
4 x 151/20 = 1,5 seconds
You get the idea. It's a non issue.
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Kill the ords to stop the hordes!!. Keep in mind that you have to be careful what you wish for. If we hardened the ammo bunkers today, you might be able to bomb them GVs or CVsharrasing you. Tommorow though, whats gonna keep them guys off of keeping your hangers down because its too tough to kill THEIR ords?'
Many o' times Ive seen the hordes pack up and move off to some other target because you killed their ords, "I cant kill them hangers, Im certainly not gonna fight em"
Honestly, how many times you hear the cries of "NOONE EVER PORKS", now. Imagine if it were to be more difficult.
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Get off your lazy ars and fly from another field and kill him.... or better yet kill him with a Hurri IID or a B25H or an IL-2 with there guns before he get to the field. All above listed aircraft can kill ANY tank if used properly with just its GUN
If your too lazy or slow or, or too poor a player to kill a GV with the available options you derserve to get spawn camped on the runway for the 15min it takes a VH to come up after its taken out.
That's fine until a flak shows up. One on one and the odds are not in your favor. Unless you can fly on a rope and nail them from way out.
Kill the ords to stop the hordes!!. Keep in mind that you have to be careful what you wish for. If we hardened the ammo bunkers today, you might be able to bomb them GVs or CVsharrasing you. Tommorow though, whats gonna keep them guys off of keeping your hangers down because its too tough to kill THEIR ords?'
Many o' times Ive seen the hordes pack up and move off to some other target because you killed their ords, "I cant kill them hangers, Im certainly not gonna fight em"
Honestly, how many times you hear the cries of "NOONE EVER PORKS", now. Imagine if it were to be more difficult.
They can bring bombs from more distant bases if you take down their ords. They will still bomb you. But, if the bunkers are tougher, you can better fight wirbles and (much more importantly) kill the troops on the attackers field. Killing their troops is much more significant and sends them looking for an easier target.
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(Ostwind) 15.6
That needs checked.
It takes (and has always taken) 20 rounds from an Osti to drop a town building.
It has to between 12.5 and 13.4 ish.
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That needs checked.
It takes (and has always taken) 20 rounds from an Osti to drop a town building.
It has to between 12.5 and 13.4 ish.
A town building has a hardness of 0.3125 (x1000lbs)
312.5/20=15.625
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Maybe the key word here is Bunker. That usually refers to an underground or reinforced concrete structure. So should it be ordinance storage area instead with little or no added protection other than built up berms.
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A town building has a hardness of 0.3125 (x1000lbs)
312.5/20=15.625
Ahh that is right.
I had forgotten about the damage multiplier for smaller ord.
(i.e. 4x250lbs or 2x500lbs do more damage than 1x1,000)
My bad.
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Hate to disagree with Lusche (usually causes me to look foolish) but I'm with Lute on this one. I just tried it offline, 20 rounds from the Osti took ~13 seconds.
That needs checked.
It takes (and has always taken) 20 rounds from an Osti to drop a town building.
It has to between 12.5 and 13.4 ish.
A town building has a hardness of 0.3125 (x1000lbs)
312.5/20=15.625
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Aren't we talking about the Ostwind in this specific example?
Ahh that is right.
I had forgotten about the damage multiplier for smaller ord.
(i.e. 4x250lbs or 2x500lbs do more damage than 1x1,000)
My bad.
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Hate to disagree with Lusche (usually causes me to look foolish) but I'm with Lute on this one. I just tried it offline, 20 rounds from the Osti took ~13 seconds.
What has the time to do with this?
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What has the time to do with this?
Think he mighta confused himself with 15 and 13...thinking you were talking time or something...no clue.
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A single flak or Tank spawns near the base and drives over and shoots the ords out (or they are shot out by a single plane). This forces machine gun/ cannon attacks to clear him out which result in many dead planes before someone gets him. Often a good fight between two bases can turned on the appearance of a single Wirble.
So up a Panzer or T34 and kill the Wirbel. Problem solved.
On the other hand, yeah, a coordinated assault by armor, Wirbels, and planes killing the ords, VH, and ack can shut down a field if the defense isn't rapid and strong enough. I don't see that as a problem. But a single Wirbel? Never, except possibly an undefended small field.
Option 3 is to take off from another base (usually a sector or more away and fly back with ords, only to have the GV re-up in seconds.
The GV doesn't re-up anywhere near the field in seconds. Depending on the spawn and the distance between the fields, it's likely to take him longer to drive in from the spawn than it takes you to get there with ords.
I do think the HE equivalency of everything below 37mm is too high.
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Give Spikes a beer........ :cheers: I am so darn stupid today.
Think he mighta confused himself with 15 and 13...thinking you were talking time or something...no clue.
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Instead of hardening the ammo bunkers why not just add more? Scatter oh, say 75 or 80 around the field. They can't possibly take them all out.
Do it. I dare ya'.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/34-strat.jpg)
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:aok
Do it. I dare ya'.
<S> ThndrEgg <S>
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Do it. I dare ya'.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/34-strat.jpg)
Heheh....owned :)
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Nope.
Ord bunkers, same as a town building, 250 pounds of explosive.
Now honestly, I've gone back and forth on this one. Of all the things on the base, the ord bunkers should be a little tougher maybe, but certainly not anything like doubling it to 500lbs. Maybe 300? No wait, I'm arguing for the other side here.............. :bolt:
Nope.
:rolleyes:
Considering that in WWII ord and fuel was normally kept at dumps and not bunkers except back in the states.
If anything, technically they are too hard to blow up in game. Not too soft.
They are fine the way they are
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Heheh....owned :)
heheheehhehehe my post was a joke heheheeheehehehe :rolleyes: Your owned claim is a fail which in fact means i owned you :D heheeheeheehehehhhh
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heheheehhehehe my post was a joke heheheeheehehehe :rolleyes: Your owned claim is a fail which in fact means i owned you :D heheeheeheehehehhhh
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-LKYPsCAZHs/SrNSlpIDdtI/AAAAAAAAAKo/_4QpYcH75Yw/s320/chill_pill.jpg)
The fact that Egg has something to counter even the extremist of things is funny.
Oh yeah I forgot. Hehehehehe. :rock
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Ummm..maybe up a tank to deal with a tank when ords are down? Just a thought.
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oh..yeah sorry Spikes :o :bolt:
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Hate to disagree with Lusche (usually causes me to look foolish) but I'm with Lute on this one. I just tried it offline, 20 rounds from the Osti took ~13 seconds.
Lusche is correct atually.
He is basing it off a 1,000 lbs doing 1.0 in damage which is where the .3125 comes from.
The way AH deals with ord is...
A single 250lbs bomb WILL kill a town building even though the town building is .3125 because a 250lbs bomb does not do 1/4 the damage of a 1,000lbs. It does more.
i.e.
4x250lbs bombs do closer to 1200lbs of damage vs. 1x1,000lbs bomb.
1x2,000lbs bomb actually does LESS damage than 2x1,000lbs bombs.
The 1,000 lbs is parity. i.e. it does 1.0 damage in the AH settings.
Smaller bombs do more damage and larger do less.
Which is why it only takes 1 250lbs bomb to drop a town building even though the building hardness is .3125.
(are we all confused yet?)
I need to see if I have that thread saved that explains it better.
(anybody have it?)
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Hardness of the ords bunkers don't matter much because 90% of player in AH don't even understand the importance of destroying them. They leave ords up and take a CV right up to a base and then wonder why the CV got sunk.
I rarely see the ords at the base closest to the CV being the issue... I know _I_ don't usually up to kill a cv from the base it's attacking, I take off perhaps 2-3 sectors away in 234's or some such... I see more cv's getting killed from multiple sets of bombers from many sectors away, or from shore batteries than low ju88's, ki67's, 25's, or heavy fighters suiciding on it..
you have a point though, if considering pt spawns :)
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So up a Panzer or T34 and kill the Wirbel. Problem solved.
I made the point that getting pilots out of planes into GVs was a negative.
The GV doesn't re-up anywhere near the field in seconds. Depending on the spawn and the distance between the fields, it's likely to take him longer to drive in from the spawn than it takes you to get there with ords.
I didn't mean it re-ups right at the field, I realize they have to drive from the spawn. But the pilots needs to land, change fields, get new ords, and fly all the way back.
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Yes he is, as usual...... I was thinking seconds for some dumbarse reason....... :uhoh
Lusche is correct atually.
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Lusche is correct atually.
He is basing it off a 1,000 lbs doing 1.0 in damage which is where the .3125 comes from.
The way AH deals with ord is...
A single 250lbs bomb WILL kill a town building even though the town building is .3125 because a 250lbs bomb does not do 1/4 the damage of a 1,000lbs. It does more.
i.e.
4x250lbs bombs do closer to 1200lbs of damage vs. 1x1,000lbs bomb.
1x2,000lbs bomb actually does LESS damage than 2x1,000lbs bombs.
The 1,000 lbs is parity. i.e. it does 1.0 damage in the AH settings.
Smaller bombs do more damage and larger do less.
Which is why it only takes 1 250lbs bomb to drop a town building even though the building hardness is .3125.
(are we all confused yet?)
I need to see if I have that thread saved that explains it better.
(anybody have it?)
wuttt :headscratch:
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wuttt :headscratch:
found the thread.
LINK (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261263.msg3245265.html#msg3245265)
These are the hardness settings:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/objhard.jpg)
The gun and rocket power can be found here (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm)
Regarding bomb strength, I'd have to dig through my notes to put together a full list. Just from info I have readily on hand:
2,000lb = 1.8197 vs hardness value (off the top of my head if that's not it it's close)
1,000lb = 1.000 vs hardness value
500lb = .568 vs hardness value
250lb = .315 vs hardness value
What I find interesting is how this changes what typed of bombs you should pick when flying a buff. (or should)
Take the B-17 as an example.
16x 250lb bombs
12x 500lb bombs
6x 1000lb bombs
16x 250lb bombs do 5,040lbs of damage.
12x 500lb bombs do 6,816lbs of damage.
6x 1000lb bombs do 6,000lbs of damage.
You do more damage with 12x 500lb option.
Factor in the drones and you get 2,448lbs of damage extra taking the 500lb over the 1000lb.
Another great example is the B-24.
12x 500lb bombs
8x 1000lb bombs
4x 2000lb bombs
12x 500 lb bombs gives you 6,816lbs of damage.
8x 1,000lb bombs gives you 8,000lbs of damage.
4x 2,000lb bombs gives you 7,278lbs of damage.
If you pick the 4x 2,000lb bombs option, factoring in the drones, you get 21,834lbs of damage.
If you pick the 8x 1,000lb bombs option, factoring in the drones, you get 24,000lbs of damage.
So in a B-24 the most bang for the buck is the 1,000lb bombs.
I USED to up the B-24 w/ the 2,000lb bombs. Not gonna do that now 'cause I loose over a full 2k bomb worth of damage vs. the 1K option.
Found a good Google Doc. that was uploaded that shows this in a table.
LINK (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKpccpc7avsUR9EpBj_b2UA&single=true&gid=0&output=html)
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found the thread.
LINK (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261263.msg3245265.html#msg3245265)
What I find interesting is how this changes what typed of bombs you should pick when flying a buff. (or should)
Take the B-17 as an example.
16x 250lb bombs
12x 500lb bombs
6x 1000lb bombs
16x 250lb bombs do 5,040lbs of damage.
12x 500lb bombs do 6,816lbs of damage.
6x 1000lb bombs do 6,000lbs of damage.
You do more damage with 12x 500lb option.
Factor in the drones and you get 2,448lbs of damage extra taking the 500lb over the 1000lb.
Another great example is the B-24.
12x 500lb bombs
8x 1000lb bombs
4x 2000lb bombs
12x 500 lb bombs gives you 6,816lbs of damage.
8x 1,000lb bombs gives you 8,000lbs of damage.
4x 2,000lb bombs gives you 7,278lbs of damage.
If you pick the 4x 2,000lb bombs option, factoring in the drones, you get 21,834lbs of damage.
If you pick the 8x 1,000lb bombs option, factoring in the drones, you get 24,000lbs of damage.
So in a B-24 the most bang for the buck is the 1,000lb bombs.
I USED to up the B-24 w/ the 2,000lb bombs. Not gonna do that now 'cause I loose over a full 2k bomb worth of damage vs. the 1K option.
Found a good Google Doc. that was uploaded that shows this in a table.
LINK (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKpccpc7avsUR9EpBj_b2UA&single=true&gid=0&output=html)
Intersting that it is set up that way.
I assume the 250 lbs bombs give you more scatter, such that you actually hit and destroy more buildings when attacking a town. If a 1000 or 2000lb bomb lands, what is it's blast radius? And will this cause multible 'heavy' bombs to have more overlap in their blast radii resulting in less damage than spread out smaller bombs.
Perhaps the score variation you site is an effort to compansate for that. It would be hard to get all those 250lbs bombs to hit a hangar, but if I were bombing a town, I'd want to greater spacial distribution.
So wouldn't the 'Damage' score is based on what you actually hit as well as what you drop? that probably needs to be factored in to what bomb load you take to a particular target.
Of course AH could have a code where ords dropped in the boundry of a town count toward damage ponts, or are distributed to buildings. But I hope not, that would be hokey.
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I just can say I discovered this effect very early in my AH life (2nd tour) when I noticed that by using 6x500lbs instead of 3x1000lbs I significantly increased my success rate at dropping hangars.
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makes sense, blast effect is roughly proportional to the sqrt of the charge mass
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51 flies in at 10 k, ignores all who want to fight, strafs down 1 ord bunkers..flies through ack at 500mph, comes back gets the other ord bunker... by now 3 people chasing him, he ignores. 3rd pass hes pretty much done for, flies into the radar guns blazing.
1 guy, in 1 plane nobody can catch, more or less shuts down the entire field so far as being able to properly defend it or launch any sort of offensive (bomber/jabo) attacks from it. Of course he dies, but that doesent matter, no pentalty for death. He ups and does it again at the next base on his list
kinda dumb, and happens day in and day out.
people who whine about sneaking bases should take heed, this is one of the reasons its done that way.. if you try and start a "mini war" , a real fight to take a base, in short order the above is exactly what happens and 1 guy has shut the entire thing down in about the lamest fashion possible.
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51 flies in at 10 k, ignores all who want to fight, strafs down 1 ord bunkers..flies through ack at 500mph, comes back gets the other ord bunker... by now 3 people chasing him, he ignores. 3rd pass hes pretty much done for, flies into the radar guns blazing.
1 guy, in 1 plane nobody can catch, more or less shuts down the entire field so far as being able to properly defend it or launch any sort of offensive (bomber/jabo) attacks from it. Of course he dies, but that doesent matter, no pentalty for death. He ups and does it again at the next base on his list
kinda dumb, and happens day in and day out.
people who whine about sneaking bases should take heed, this is one of the reasons its done that way.. if you try and start a "mini war" , a real fight to take a base, in short order the above is exactly what happens and 1 guy has shut the entire thing down in about the lamest fashion possible.
On the other hand you want to talk about lame gamepplay? typically get 50 people steeamrolling base after base through not skill but overwhelming numbers and the side with significantly fewer people only way of stopping or at least slowing them is for one plane to come in and blow everythign up that they need to steamroll.
Make the ords harder to pork and all you do is help the hordes which are already helped wayyyy too much.