Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Impakt on March 16, 2010, 12:45:00 PM
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I ask that when you post your personal attacks that you at least read carefully what I have written so you understand what I am saying. The HO in this game has taken on a moral dimension. If one HO's someone one is both morally bankrupt and unskilled in ACM. NOTE: I agree that the game would be boring if the HO were the preferred tactic, and that it is a risk fraught tactic that is best avoided and only used in certain situations. I do HO in these situations. I HO very sparingly and usually fly by, and duck (important: by dodging I CAN"T be HO-ed). So, on to the situations.
(1) When an HO isn't an HO. Many people don't seem to note the difference between a shot coming from the front quarter that isn't really an HO. If I can pull the trigger and hit you but you CAN"T get you guns to bear ---then you weren't HO-ed you were "front quarter deflection shot". One has to watch out for snap shots and late shots. Some 190 pilots are damned good at these and I <S> them. I think I have ducked under their nose but a burst removes the back of my plane.
(2) Plane type HO's. I tend to avoid getting in front of 110s, N1ks, Typhoons, F4U 1-Cs. I make it a point NOT to. I don't fly straight at them hoping the pilot will wave as I pass. I play because of my interest in WWII---I don't like games online, and I play no other. Read the Osprey books on WWII AC----they are FULL OF HO ATTACKS. See the Hurri Aces book---a guy in a Hurri I Ho-ing 110s (he got 2 before bailing). The HO was part of real life P-40 and P-38 tactics vs most IJ AC. Here is what I do. If my plane has a significant advantage I will take the HO shot. Especially if my situation is only going to deteriorate---ie enemy friends ib, or plane match up. For example---I like the P-40 E---if I'm Bnz-ing a Zeke---I take any firing solution offered---since with time I will lose E and the advantage turns to him as it becomes a turn fight. The durability of the P-40 and the range lethality of 6 x 50 cals ---I think gives me an edge over Zeke H2H.
(3) Situational HOs
I fly alone in a squad of one (insert insult/ joke here). If I am being hopelessly swarmed with no hope of flight or help ---I will take ANY firing solution---hell I gotta kill more than one person---no time to tool around while the other guy nails my six. So, I would think that here it behooves the gang to avoid my nose. In a CV furball with similar #s I don't HO---unless it is a buff IB to CV. Some large squads like the Muppets and Jokers seize bases with impressive efficiency and lethality. A cloud arrives and one does what one can to resist. In this situation I will HO. Why? Because each killed con has to restart at a base that isn't HERE so I'm helping my side hold the base because I CAN RE-UP HERE. Another situation where I HO---a "must kill" one. I came to a V-base in a Tempest with TwinTail in an A-20. To my great chagrin not only was he too slippery to kill (I did some ping damage) BUT he had me losing E and was damned close to killing me. Not only that he had killed some troops on ground as they ran and new troops were IB. I had an audience of 10 guys in GV's shouting: "c'mon Impakt kill that A-20". So, with 60 rounds left I gave up the BnZ and flew straight at him determined to have some result. He flew straight at me too and HO---he died and then I did. In my mind legit due to the base capture situation (he was only con and me only friendly plane). Finally, in this game I tend to BnZ (in WBs I turned/ burned), and HERE people fly straight UP at you. Now if the con is wobbling (ie he is stalling at peak of climb and I'm in a nice, stable, high speed dive---I will shoot the HO shot IF other situational factors say that I must---ie enemy friendlies IB and no time.
So---if I HO you these are the reasons why. I don't do it often, and if you doubt that look at my K/D whcih would imply that I'm either lucky or a great shot (neither). I wrote this since Rud3boy asked me on 200: "why do you HO?" As promised, I have answered the why and the when.
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Good points, I mostly agree.
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Hard to argue with most of what youve written, good logical points
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ditto, worth posting :aok
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If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO. However we aren't, you get a new life and a shiney new plane every sortie. HO's take no real effort or skill, which is why they are looked down upon. It's a dead give away, no pun intended, that you're fighting someone with little skill or just plain desperate. If you anticipate it you can usually gain an advantage fairly quick. It's more of an annoyance than anything.
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Good post Sir. No arguments here.
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Front deflection shot, the only thing that will not result in a front deflection shot opportunity is for both planes to ram each other spinner to spinner. By that reasoning are you saying it would be ok to ho me because I broke to avoid the collision? This is especially true at very low speeds/e states in a fight turning nose to nose.
Sorry a lot of your reasoning just doesn't add up, I too fly alone mostly due to me being UK and my squad being US but I can still face the situations you have listed here and I do not need to HO. Its all been written before a thousand times, imo its the calling card of suck, if someone HOs you or attempts to HO you then I'd HO definitely.
Your entitled to your opinion I guess its just a perspective thing but I don't think listing your reasons why here will stop people telling you that you suck or whatever after HOing them as they are also entitled to their opinion/perspective.
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(4)Geographical HO If one is a resident of IdaHO ...
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A true story from a few weeks ago:
player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?
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Saturday Night at A139, the Rooks had been attempting to capture this field. They couldn't, because the "Generals" used flawed logic. But it was funny watching someone in a Hog-1a into the field off of their CV at about 10k. I'd get co-alt in my La7, he'd run, turn after I broke, then fire first in the HO. I'd pull the trigger at 200 (he managed one bullet hole) and twice this exact thing happened. I got bored to wait around for the 3rd time.
If someone fires HO, my trigger will be pulled. If they get shot down, they'll grab another plane and vice versa.
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I ask that when you post your personal attacks that you at least read carefully what I have written so you understand what I am saying. The HO in this game has taken on a moral dimension. If one HO's someone one is both morally bankrupt and unskilled in ACM. NOTE: I agree that the game would be boring if the HO were the preferred tactic, and ...when.
Uh, yeah, those are words.
Hey, who is this HO-bag?
Actually, you get no quibble from me. I've died enough and killed enough on the FQ deflection to know it's real and can be inflicted on or to with impunity - and yes, they're an RW feature, historically. I try to avoid them for the fact that my gunnery seems to necessitate that I not match it evenly against someone else's.
BTW, as for that moral dimension, it's crap, IMJ, and there's smply no winning the argument. I don't play other games either and am a history buff. I almost always fight - even against bad odds, and consider myself a student of ACM (albeit a humble one). Thus, I go into fights looking to learn, not mindlessly HO. That said, that nose-on merge is a reality, and anyone too dumb to try to use it or, failing that, to avoid it deserves whatever they get.
Uh, yeah, what the HO-Bag said.
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A true story from a few weeks ago:
player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT? <----- :D
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I was in the WW1 arena on the first night of its release and came across this fellow out there at 1.5 distance and for the life of me I couldn't tell if he was coming or going. After a while the 1.5 turned into a 1.0 and I thought to myself "Self, this is gonna be a fight!". After some more time went by the 1.0 turned into 1000. a little while later it turned into 800. Because I was itching for some gun sounds I started tapping the trigger for short bursts. Every few hundred yards I'd shoot another little burst. After a while I saw rounds generally going past me from the incoming con. He was shooting back yay! After we did this for a few more seconds we were about 100 yards out and at this time the con dived under me out of sight. I looped over and around coming down on top of this con and flamed him up pretty easily getting the pilot kill. Next thing you know...almost at the speed of light he typed over open "Why the ho?" I replied "why not"....then I got the "tards like you Sir are ruining this game" at which time I elected not to engage the guy in intellectual combat since I would clearly not win. Instead, I went and played the game for a few more hours before calling it a night. Had a blast :)
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Nice Post.
I backed off the idea of HOing is a terrible thing. 98% of them time I will not HO but now I am more agressive and If I have a solution a millisecond b4 the other plane does, then I will take the shot. Otherwise if I wait for the sportsmanlike pilot, that will never come and I will be jumped by his friends.
If I get HO'd, it's not the end of the world. That means I was in the wrong spot to begin with. :old:
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(4)Geographical HO If one is a resident of IdaHO ...
I was raised for thirty five years in
Idaho and can still tell the difference between potatos!
The one in bad makeup on the corner is form idaHO !! :x
P.S. I agree with all points !
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I don't care who, what, when or how. If you are dumb enough to come head on then you are going to get shot at. Also if I happen to only have a snap shot at the front of your plane then you will get shot at...yes I shoot head on and will continue doing so for as long as I am paying for my time in the game. My $ = my game play...you start paying my sub then I will play how you want me to.
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Situational HOing eh? I'm still against it.
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Seems a pretty reasoned thread and I tend to agree.
1) I think this is the best possible definition of what constitutes a Head ON situation. I think most HO arguments are from people who disagree on definitions and they just end up arguing semantics (actually you can substitute just about any subject and most of them end up being semantic arguments because people don't accurately define what they're actually arguing but that's besides the point here :)). If one plane has a solution and the other cannot get one before the merge then it's a front quarter shot. Otherwise you may as well say anything in front of the 3/9 line is a head on because it's impossible to say "a HO is anything in a 20% cone from the nose".
2) While I don't think the HO should be the first choice for anyone and is a tactic of desperation some people seem to not take this point into consideration. Why oh why would I want to HO if I'm in a P-51? A plane that in most situations can exit the fight and control the fight because of it's speed. The historical argument makes less sense to me because the stakes aren't even remotely similar, I think there are times when a HO makes sense, but I can't think of any case where it should be the first choice regardless of the plane I'm flying and what the other guy is in.
3) Situational considerations are where the decisions are made in my book, it's almost never my first choice but it may be what I feel to be my only choice depending on the situation. If I just had a knock down drag out fight with someone that left me low and slow I may take a HO shot if a A6M bounces my 38G, I may not still depending on my mood but I can certainly understand if the 38 would try one in this scenario. I'll also take the HO shot if I'm engaged with multiple people, to me the HO is no less dweeby than the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, guy who dives in once I'm already engaged. :)
I'll also add case #4 - sometimes I'm just lazy or in a foul mood. :D
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That was a good post I'd have to agree.
People need an outlet for their frustrations and blaming someone else on a failed merge helps them feel better about suckage/lack of acm. You can pretty much single out the HO whiners..lol there's like 20-30 of them. Its kinda funny to see someone complain about getting HO'd multiple times in a night when I don't seem to be encountering the same problem. Makes me think they bring it on themselves.
Other than that I agree a HO is situational.
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A true story from a few weeks ago:
player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?
Funny. We once had an honor-system vending box at Parklane Towers here. At first, people got their candy, chips, whatevah, and paid into the little slot box. Soon receipts in the slot box started coming up a little short. Some time soon after that, it turned into a free-for-all and both the snacks AND the money disappeared.
I always envisioned that, after the announcement that receipts were coming up short, some bright spark decided that he wouldn't be made a chimp - and so decided to preempt the competition by looting both stock and cash.
Of course, the system was shut down within days after being pillaged wholesale. So much for the honor of my officemates.
In any case, it's a decent illustration of what I call, "the race for the bottom". At that point, you just need to go with it and dwell there.
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If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO. However we aren't, you get a new life and a shiney new plane every sortie. HO's take no real effort or skill, which is why they are looked down upon. It's a dead give away, no pun intended, that you're fighting someone with little skill or just plain desperate. If you anticipate it you can usually gain an advantage fairly quick. It's more of an annoyance than anything.
I'm with the bear on this one.
- oldman
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If you are dumb enough to come head on then you are going to get shot at.
:)
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... Some large squads like the Muppets and Jokers seize bases with impressive efficiency and lethality...
:huh
:rofl :rofl
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Lol, I missed that one within the wall of text.
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there are times that i do a HO shot either by...1) it is a vertical situation and at time you just can not pull off on it. or 2) there are times that it looks i am coming on their six but realized they are coming at me. and 3) they do a turn on me, but for i can pull the triger, they end up HO at me.
I hate HOing and there are a lot a AC out there that there is no reason to be HOing
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Very well thought out post and well said. :aok
the nose to nose merge is the tough situation here. I've noticed the veteran players, and those looking for ACM challenges in the MA can be identified by the nose to nose merge. They will nose down as if in the DA, which is the understood technique for a 'fair' merge to put the fight on equal footing, a preference of mine. The trouble is reading the opponent. Too often I attempt to enter this 'fair' merge only to have the bandit pull up over the top of me an shoot me in the cockpit or shoot my tail off. Hmmm did I miss read that? So on the merges now, I always feel the hesitation of trying to figure out if this is going to be a merge and a dog fight or if he's going to shoot me on the merge....
Never get it right. :pray
So now I just assume it's going to be HO and avoid head on merges. Apologies to those looking for DA style nose to nose merges, but it's just too hard to figure out in the MA.
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So now I just assume it's going to be HO and avoid head on merges. Apologies to those looking for DA style nose to nose merges, but it's just too hard to figure out in the MA.
Was this fella in MW who opined loudly one recent evening that everytime he went head to head with this other guy he ended up getting HO'd. Apparently some well intentioned trainer in the TA had told this guy never to fire on the merge, that it was unsporty. Well, Duh. I told the guy this wasnt the Dueling Arena and that he should expect to get fired on anytime enemy guns crossed his path. In the MA anything goes. Rules be damned.
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Those points made seem like common sense to me. 's what I've been doing without being able to put the situation(s) in words.
This thread should be stickied :aok
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Was this fella in MW who opined loudly one recent evening that everytime he went head to head with this other guy he ended up getting HO'd. Apparently some well intentioned trainer in the TA had told this guy never to fire on the merge, that it was unsporty. Well, Duh. I told the guy this wasnt the Dueling Arena and that he should expect to get fired on anytime enemy guns crossed his path. In the MA anything goes. Rules be damned.
Kind of how I play. I assume anyone I come in contact in with the MA is a skilless noob that will HO me the first chance he gets. I make decisions based on worse case scenarios, not hopeful ones.
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Very well thought out post and well said. :aok
<snip>
Never get it right. :pray
So now I just assume it's going to be HO and avoid head on merges. Apologies to those looking for DA style nose to nose merges, but it's just too hard to figure out in the MA.
I know how it is man, I've given up on the 'fair merge' as well. :(
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If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO. However we aren't, you get a new life and a shiney new plane every sortie. HO's take no real effort or skill, which is why they are looked down upon. It's a dead give away, no pun intended, that you're fighting someone with little skill or just plain desperate. If you anticipate it you can usually gain an advantage fairly quick. It's more of an annoyance than anything.
You're playing a different game than the OP and I are playing. Most people on the forums seem to be playing your game. Most people in the MA seem to be playing ours. In our game, impressing you by showing off our uber ace ACM skill is of zero importance. The problem with HOing in our game isn't that it looks bad or lacks elegance or isn't sporting, is that it's usually a high risk, low percentage shot. What the OP is (correctly) saying is that when circumstances make that untrue (a 110 vs. a Zeke) or tactical considerations make it worth the risk (you're defending a base and can just reup if you lose, the other guy will have to fly 20 miles), that practical reason not to take it, the one that matters in our game, goes away.
There are also some irrational but IMO valid reasons: I will always take ANY shot, including a HO, I get at a 262 because I hate them and they deserve to die, and because the loss of his jet and all those perks will ruin his day a lot more than losing my N1K or F6F five times in a row will ruin mine. I'd gladly ram a 262 for the same reason if it weren't well nigh impossible.
Front deflection shot, the only thing that will not result in a front deflection shot opportunity is for both planes to ram each other spinner to spinner. By that reasoning are you saying it would be ok to ho me because I broke to avoid the collision?
No, if the victim had the opportunity to take a shot and didn't it's a HO. The front quarter shot isn't on an initial merge, or a subsequent re-merge after a long extension, it's where one pilot gets his nose around quicker and is still close enough to take the shot before the other guy possibly can, or after you've roped somebody and they're still pointed more or less up at you but they're obviously stalling and will not be able to bring guns to bear.
(Of course the first type immediately turns into a HO situation if you don't kill him with your first shot, so you'd better be sure you can. But I would still distinguish a shot that you should be able to make but is high-risk if you blow it, from a shot that is high-risk even if you execute perfectly.)
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Some large squads like the MuppetsCLAIM JUMPERS and Jokers seize bases with impressive efficiency and lethality. A cloud arrives and one does what one can to resist.
since when have the muppets been BIG? haha insert claim jumpers and ur good :rofl
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A true story from a few weeks ago:
player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?
:rofl :rofl
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Great points and all are pretty much true. Sometimes I take some pretty risky shots in perk rides (ie I have HO'ed planes before in a 262, hoping that my speed flying by them is just to fast for them to get a shot on as they come around) and lived.
At least you don't get called for being a HOer in an Ar234. I guess it IS a HO shot since I had guns on him, and him on me, but that's just plain stupid. :lol
I remember shooting Dallas's Chog in my Chog from the dead 6 position (he was flying level) and got PM after PM saying how I was a weak HOer and had no skill.
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You're playing a different game than the OP and I are playing. Most people on the forums seem to be playing your game. Most people in the MA seem to be playing ours. In our game, impressing you by showing off our uber ace ACM skill is of zero importance. The problem with HOing in our game isn't that it looks bad or lacks elegance or isn't sporting, is that it's usually a high risk, low percentage shot. What the OP is (correctly) saying is that when circumstances make that untrue (a 110 vs. a Zeke) or tactical considerations make it worth the risk (you're defending a base and can just reup if you lose, the other guy will have to fly 20 miles), that practical reason not to take it, the one that matters in our game, goes away.
There are also some irrational but IMO valid reasons: I will always take ANY shot, including a HO, I get at a 262 because I hate them and they deserve to die, and because the loss of his jet and all those perks will ruin his day a lot more than losing my N1K or F6F five times in a row will ruin mine. I'd gladly ram a 262 for the same reason if it weren't well nigh impossible.
No, if the victim had the opportunity to take a shot and didn't it's a HO. The front quarter shot isn't on an initial merge, or a subsequent re-merge after a long extension, it's where one pilot gets his nose around quicker and is still close enough to take the shot before the other guy possibly can, or after you've roped somebody and they're still pointed more or less up at you but they're obviously stalling and will not be able to bring guns to bear.
(Of course the first type immediately turns into a HO situation if you don't kill him with your first shot, so you'd better be sure you can. But I would still distinguish a shot that you should be able to make but is high-risk if you blow it, from a shot that is high-risk even if you execute perfectly.)
Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have and I do think I know how it works. If you feel the need to rely on that type of thing, as many do, by all means take the shot. I'll kill you shortly after and it will all be for naught. It's really as simple as that.
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since when have the muppets been BIG? haha insert claim jumpers and ur good :rofl
I have to agree. I may see three or four together. not over a dozen like Claim Jumpers.
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Very well thought out post and well said. :aok
the nose to nose merge is the tough situation here. I've noticed the veteran players, and those looking for ACM challenges in the MA can be identified by the nose to nose merge. They will nose down as if in the DA, which is the understood technique for a 'fair' merge to put the fight on equal footing, a preference of mine. The trouble is reading the opponent. Too often I attempt to enter this 'fair' merge only to have the bandit pull up over the top of me an shoot me in the cockpit or shoot my tail off. Hmmm did I miss read that? So on the merges now, I always feel the hesitation of trying to figure out if this is going to be a merge and a dog fight or if he's going to shoot me on the merge....
Never get it right. :pray
So now I just assume it's going to be HO and avoid head on merges. Apologies to those looking for DA style nose to nose merges, but it's just too hard to figure out in the MA.
They aren't nosing down to create a "fair merge" , they are nosing down to create an advantage over you (vertical separation) and probably also to make they HO shot they think you are likely to take a little more difficult. Generally speaking if you see someone dive and gain E into a merge , they will not be HO'ing you, if they fly straight at you - start dodging
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A true story from a few weeks ago:
player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?
lol.. thats about as funny as when i shot down a noob the other day...
1) he ho'd me
2) I flew up and reversed, dove in on his six and hit him with a tater from his high 6.
3) He complained that I ho'd him.
or another funny stupid situation, where I came in high on a base where I was the only friendly around & there was a swarm of 'red guys' circling the field hoping to vulch people. so...
1) dove in from alt, and started shooting them down
2) After doing so, I was called out for 'picking'.. :confused:
I guess the dweeb def for picking is smart fighting a 10v1 situation....
so it goes... another day of AH
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Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have and I do think I know how it works. If you feel the need to rely on that type of thing, as many do, by all means take the shot. I'll kill you shortly after and it will all be for naught. It's really as simple as that.
Behold the hubris.
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If you HO me, you'll likely get a facefull of antitank ammunition. Not so well advised. :D
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Thanks almost all very civil replies which is more than anyone could ask. I might add just a few clarifications.
(1) I try not to merge H2H. I am NOT anything but average at ACM so I plead guilty to being mostly a alt weenie/ picker. I do enjoy the CV to Cv furball and there I try and duck/ dodge the H2Hs. I've just been surprised at the number of people FLYING STRAIGHT AT ME (to exaggerate in a D3A vs my 190a8) no matter what the situation, and often upside down so they can split ess. Anyway---I don't advocate it or fly right at people, but it seems to happen a lot.
(2) As to time in game---true I started here in 2008. Was in WBs in very minor way at start (97-99) and for a couple of years before coming here. So, if being an "old hand" makes you feel good---well good.
(3) I did not mean to say that the squads mentioned were "big" in an insulting way---that is why I said "impressive efficiency and lethality."
:salute
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Thanks almost all very civil replies which is more than anyone could ask. I might add just a few clarifications.
(1) I try not to merge H2H. I am NOT anything but average at ACM so I plead guilty to being mostly a alt weenie/ picker. I do enjoy the CV to Cv furball and there I try and duck/ dodge the H2Hs. I've just been surprised at the number of people FLYING STRAIGHT AT ME (to exaggerate in a D3A vs my 190a8) no matter what the situation, and often upside down so they can split ess. Anyway---I don't advocate it or fly right at people, but it seems to happen a lot.
(2) As to time in game---true I started here in 2008. Was in WBs in very minor way at start (97-99) and for a couple of years before coming here. So, if being an "old hand" makes you feel good---well good.
(3) I did not mean to say that the squads mentioned were "big" in an insulting way---that is why I said "impressive efficiency and lethality."
:salute
I am but a student but I have learned that in a co-alt merge the guy going for the HO is usually an easy kill - mostly because he's putting himself out of position for the rest of the fight. This situation comes up over and over again in the WW1 arenas - and there as in the MA it's the guy who doesn't go for the HO is the guy who I'm going to have a hard time with.
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Behold the hubris.
Behold the clueless
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If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO.
Actually, most people would do just about anything possible to not put themselves in front of a gun barrel if this were "for real"...
<S>
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sometimes you really dont have much choice. if youre intercepting bombers, ho may be nessescary, and if im in a b25h deacking a field, and someone flied head on to me, conveniently putting himself in the line of fire of my package, im going to unload on him, knowing this bird is not maneuverable, and if he gets on my six, im screwed since hes got more lead shooters than me, and its even worse when my gunner is asleep on the juob and hogging the place so I cannot man the guns
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Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have
Sure, and you've spent a LOT more time on the forums. I could tell without looking by the way you didn't bother to actually read, much less take in, any of the posts you responded to and just went straight for canned patronizing knee-jerk # 37 in true Old Fart fashion, just like I'm sure you do every time this and many other subjects come up.
And like many other veteran forum champions, I notice you don't get much stick time in these days either. Maybe you should find another hobby that still engages you. Aside from being a forum blowhard, I mean.
Anyway, if I meet you in the MA and you're in a 110G2 and I'm in a Zeke or Brewster, and you get one chance to HO and don't do it, you'll be contemplating your courtly honor and the sad lack of it among those darn kids today all the way to the ground - not because of my skill, because of your fooolishness and overestimation of your own skill.
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Actually, most people would do just about anything possible to not put themselves in front of a gun barrel if this were "for real"...
<S>
You never watch "dogfights"?
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Sure, and you've spent a LOT more time on the forums. I could tell without looking by the way you didn't bother to actually read, much less take in, any of the posts you responded to and just went straight for canned patronizing knee-jerk # 37 in true Old Fart fashion, just like I'm sure you do every time this and many other subjects come up.
And like many other veteran forum champions, I notice you don't get much stick time in these days either. Maybe you should find another hobby that still engages you. Aside from being a forum blowhard, I mean.
Anyway, if I meet you in the MA and you're in a 110G2 and I'm in a Zeke or Brewster, and you get one chance to HO and don't do it, you'll be contemplating your courtly honor and the sad lack of it among those darn kids today all the way to the ground - not because of my skill, because of your fooolishness and overestimation of your own skill.
Lol, unlike you I have a life outside the game. Other than running your mouth, what else do you do? A little too sensitive for this game or the forum for that matter.
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Lol, unlike you I have a life outside the game. Other than running your mouth, what else do you do? A little too sensitive for this game or the forum for that matter.
Just because you're insensitive doesn't mean the rest of us desire to be talked down to.
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Just because you're insensitive doesn't mean the rest of us desire to be talked down to.
I was only talking to one person, not you.
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I was only talking to one person, not you.
That's what PMs are for, if you're worried about it.
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That's what PMs are for, if you're worried about it.
I'm not
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I'm not
Okay.
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Okay.
Glad we cleared that up :D
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Behold the clueless
One can only hope your HO evading skills are better than your wit. :rofl
But most likely, they aren't, and thus your presence here.
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One can only hope your HO evading skills are better than your wit. :rofl
But most likely, they aren't, and thus your presence here.
So then why respond to Bear at all?
:devil Bear.
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Let me see. There are 35 pages in reference to Hoing. That does not include other searches such as HO, Hoer etc. I would think that there are more interesting things to talk about. Get over it and play the game or go play a first person shooter. Then you can complain or explain Head Shots.
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So then why respond to Bear at all?
:devil Bear.
I guess because he started it. :D
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I just don't understand all this consternation. I mean, the revealing garb, the offer of immediate gratification for cash, the slim chance of a venereal disease...
What's not to like about the Ho?
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No, if the victim had the opportunity to take a shot and didn't it's a HO. The front quarter shot isn't on an initial merge, or a subsequent re-merge after a long extension, it's where one pilot gets his nose around quicker and is still close enough to take the shot before the other guy possibly can, or after you've roped somebody and they're still pointed more or less up at you but they're obviously stalling and will not be able to bring guns to bear.
(Of course the first type immediately turns into a HO situation if you don't kill him with your first shot, so you'd better be sure you can. But I would still distinguish a shot that you should be able to make but is high-risk if you blow it, from a shot that is high-risk even if you execute perfectly.)
People see little difference between a HO and a 'front quarter shot' especially on a 1st merge thats what they will try and explain it away as, depending on the situation I'll take a front quarter shot ie the speed of the opponent if they have taken a longer path to avoid a collision I will not. The point I was making is that if we are flying say straight and level and I move to the side to avoid a collision it is not ok to say it wasn't a ho because you didn't have your guns on me (which is what a lot of people seem to think)
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I do not advocate nor do I practice HO in a co-alt, level merge of two planes. I suppose if a C-202 came right at my 110G or B25H ---well I'd think hard about accommodating the death wish. I've had some nice lengthy fights 1 v 1 isolated (one with PDX 22---very good stick--IMO) comes to mind. I've also done some incredibly inept, and embarrassing idiocies ---usually when I rush to help, or rush to kill (ripping wings, augering, etc). So, yes it isn't much fun to begin a duel with a blazing HO pass, BUT that isn't what I was talking about---AND such encounters are damned rare when I'm on. I DO ASK on F-12 if I see an apparent "duel" : "do you want me to stay out." And I have a standing request that it may be useful to post here: if you see me engaged with an enemy COME HELP KILL HIM. For me this is a WWII sim not a macho/ peacocking/ duelling arena---so in WWII you came and helped and destroyed the enemy. IMO, a BIG part of SA is awareness of the tool coming to ruin your duel and bounce you. I do find the "moral outrage" at ANY HO somewhat amusing---often the same people have little gaggles of wirbels that they drag over should they start to lose their "fair fight," not to mention the non ACM stick stirring, neg G stuff that I continue to suspect may make a hash of ANY gunnery solution as a matter of the games ability to calculate it.
With regard to Boozeman---he is an old squadmate and a valued friend. Highly intelligent, a deadly stick (especially in WBs where he also won several races), and he knows a lot about the planes---so he may have chimed in friendly support--- so don't take it too personally.
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Pervert talks a lot of sense about front quater shots (1st page) totaly agree with him, and this happens a lot to me i guess im too fair and get taken advantage alot in the MA`s maybe to nice of a guy i dunno.
Also some people think its OK to nose down and hose other players who are trying to duck out of a HO, if i didnt duck it would have been a HO but seeing as im ducking it isnt a HO so its ok?? :headscratch: really annoying people, I never ever HO on the first merge if i see you fire you bet i will return the favour ten times over :D
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Why bother learning ACM if you're willing to simply joust at the onset of every engagement? I'll answer that--because the majority of players value the kill more than the fight. The problem is that a while back, the majority of the playing community frowned upon HO shots. These days, the majority thinks the end justifies the means. I've accepted that. I'll still call you out on 200 for doing it, and I'm prepared to receive some sort of "bite me" response. That's just the way the MA's go.
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Why bother learning ACM if you're willing to simply joust at the onset of every engagement?
ACM is the tool box you utilize to avoid the jousters frontal aggression, reverse on them, and shoot them down with. Whats the problem again? By simply spanking these jousters over and over again you motivate them to improve. OTOH: By being a whiny, dull, predictable mouthpiece on open channel you merely promote and encourage whiny feminine menstrual behaviors in men. This is bad.
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ACM is the tool box you utilize to avoid the jousters frontal aggression, reverse on them, and shoot them down with. Whats the problem again? By simply spanking these jousters over and over again you motivate them to improve. OTOH: By being a whiny, dull, predictable mouthpiece on open channel you merely promote and encourage whiny feminine menstrual behaviors in men. This is bad.
Bingo. Raising the question, is HO'ing simply bad policy, bad politics, or both?
You seem to say it's a bad policy. I tend to agree for reasons I gave before but will reiterate: my gunnery isn't worth matching 1:1 and I'm also usually flying bad rides for HO'ing.
In any case, per usual, the solution to bad policy is to expose it to competition.
I sold some blow to buy a ho'
Then the ho' walked out th' do'
Now I ain't got no ho'
and no mo' do'
and worst of all
I'm fresh outta blow.
Man, I'd like to get me a stable of ho's and sell 'em onna shtreet.
Then I'd be like an Indian because Arapahoe inna mouth when she don't give me my money.
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Generally a ho is a bad ACM, it gives up position and its easy to spot. Now that being said, I dislike hos for 1 main reason, I like to fight! Ho shots shorten the fight, and thus I feel ho shots are for people who are searching for instant gratification or are out matched in skill and thus have nothing else in their toolbox of moves to use.
That being said, I have ho'd people when I see an outnumbered situation developing, knowing full well that I will soon be ganged by 4+ people. Which by the way, I also find lame because again, being all about the fight, there is not much of a fight in a 4v1 or greater. But for many, sadly, instead of trying to improve their skills, they run away or do other dweeby tactics such that they can feel 'accomplished'.
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Most players don't even set foot in these forums so all the arguements in the world are not going to change game play. Lets just get out there while we can and have fun, ok we get HO'd sometimes, planes are free up another and go kill them instead of complaining here.
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Impakt: " If I happen to HO you.........."
Impakt: "...........and you are an experienced player, I will miss and you will quickly acquire a gun solution and kill me."
[Paul Harvey voice] And that's the rest of the story. Paul Harvey, good day. [/Paul Harvey voice]
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Whats the problem again?
The majority of the time I get HO'd is while I'm engaged with someone else, or directly after I recover from winning a 1v1. Its just one of those deals where you roll out and are pointed directly at the next guy. At that point, he has a choice whether to go hot during your merge or not. If he doesn't, he can maneuver for the kill using ACM. If he does, he blasts you with his 4X20mm bird, and goes and finds his next victim. That's what I'm talking about. I can deal with the solo, DA-style conventional merge. I'm talking about those situations when a nose-on shot...I don't know why I even try...never mind.
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You just nailed the reason why I dont play in the LW arenas. Its like rats in a box.
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Its like rats in a box.
mmmm.... Rats in a box....
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mmmm.... Rats in a box....
...is that a take out option at IHOP?? with gravey?? :O
...sorry - couldn't resist :neener:
...cheers eh! :D
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I guess because he started it. :D
Actually you did. Karaya, I don't think he even got your meaning lol.
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The 2% of the people who read the forums aren't going to change anything, this is true.
What I have trouble understanding when it comes to the HO vs Not HO and the 'Stay out of my duel!' mentality, is it's pretty contrary to what the MA is about, isn't it?
The MA, supposedly, is about taking enough bases for your side to win the war, right? Pretty much the most effective way to do that is by bullying the other side off their bases so you can capture it, right? That's generally done with numbers clashing overhead, not with a bracket of one on one duels to decide who gets to keep the base, right? Leaving the 'nobody bombs or troops' arguments aside...
Regardless of 'Honor' or what have you, the main objective of the arena is to push the other side around. If everybody in one of the countries upped an armada of Typhoons in front of B24s and C47s, and HO'ed everything in sight, they'd roll the map PDQ. Effective? Certainly. Fun and exciting? Not particularly. (Though it would be quite the sight to see...)
It just seems to me that the MA is designed around pushing the other side around more so than rewarding those with the most outstanding ACM capabilities. Certainly, killing people through superior ACM is a good way to go about things, but it is not always the most effective or efficient, depending on the situation. In the last week, I've been on the receiving end of some very effective demonstrations of what 3 or 4 fast cannon armed planes in the right hands can do to keep a field suppressed once it's deacked. Vulching? Sure. It's also awfully hard to mount an offensive from that field at that point.
Wiley.
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Impakt: " If I happen to HO you.........."
Impakt: "...........and you are an experienced player, I will miss and you will quickly acquire a gun solution and kill me."
Apparently, you didn't read anything I wrote, and hence it is pointless to rebut this. I am neither an inexperienced player nor amongst the elite or even the very good--- with that said it isn't always that easy. I have never understood why SOME (few I hope) people in this game are so given to excessive pride and rudeness. Another sign of the collapse of civility in our society I suppose. One CAN argue forcefully, passionately, and even wittily for one's ideas and against what I have written, but it shouldn't have to be an ad hominem insult.
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The 2% of the people who read the forums aren't going to change anything, this is true.
What I have trouble understanding when it comes to the HO vs Not HO and the 'Stay out of my duel!' mentality, is it's pretty contrary to what the MA is about, isn't it?
The MA, supposedly, is about taking enough bases for your side to win the war, right? Pretty much the most effective way to do that is by bullying the other side off their bases so you can capture it, right? That's generally done with numbers clashing overhead, not with a bracket of one on one duels to decide who gets to keep the base, right? Leaving the 'nobody bombs or troops' arguments aside...
Regardless of 'Honor' or what have you, the main objective of the arena is to push the other side around. If everybody in one of the countries upped an armada of Typhoons in front of B24s and C47s, and HO'ed everything in sight, they'd roll the map PDQ. Effective? Certainly. Fun and exciting? Not particularly. (Though it would be quite the sight to see...)
It just seems to me that the MA is designed around pushing the other side around more so than rewarding those with the most outstanding ACM capabilities. Certainly, killing people through superior ACM is a good way to go about things, but it is not always the most effective or efficient, depending on the situation. In the last week, I've been on the receiving end of some very effective demonstrations of what 3 or 4 fast cannon armed planes in the right hands can do to keep a field suppressed once it's deacked. Vulching? Sure. It's also awfully hard to mount an offensive from that field at that point.
Wiley.
the "war" is there to promote AIR COMBAT plain and simple.
The "war" is and should always be secondary.
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the "war" is there to promote COMBAT plain and simple.
The "war" is and should always be secondary.
I agree with you Ink, but had to correct you.
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The game is about fun.... there is nothing fun about getting ho'd or ganged by an excessive number of cons.... its just plain boring. For some the game is about the challenge and the excitement associated with it, for others its an ego trip.... there is no challenge in ganging, there is no challenge, in hoing.
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Apparently, you didn't read anything I wrote, and hence it is pointless to rebut this. I am neither an inexperienced player nor amongst the elite or even the very good--- with that said it isn't always that easy. I have never understood why SOME (few I hope) people in this game are so given to excessive pride and rudeness. Another sign of the collapse of civility in our society I suppose. One CAN argue forcefully, passionately, and even wittily for one's ideas and against what I have written, but it shouldn't have to be an ad hominem insult.
I'm not sure Steve's comment was meant as an insult. Mine certainly wasn't. The problem with "text" is it doesn't always convey intent. You presented a well thought out arguement, but this is a touchy issue and will always be a point of contention.
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the "war" is there to promote AIR COMBAT plain and simple.
The "war" is and should always be secondary.
A reasonable statement. The standard behavior in the MA seems to point to the majority feeling differently though. I just don't see how it's reasonable when there are 2 forces 20 planes strong in an area to expect people to politely pair off into 20 'honorable duels'. Frankly, that's not anywhere near as exciting as a furball, IMO.
Wiley.
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Ace's High is about air combat......Yes, the GV's are there but, that is all secondary. The war is probably third.....IMO.
As far as the HO is concerned I 100% agree w/ Impakt. I HO as well but, that is just one of many ways to win a fight. I prefer to use the way that will win the fight and not damage my plane with the exception being some of the things Impakt stated.
If I know I'm flying against fragile zekes.... and I'm flying an F4F; I'll set my convergence farther out HO and break when I get to 400. It's very hard to hit me w/ the zekes poor ballistics cannons and the 7mm popgun doesn't do much. After all I can't turn and can't slow down vs. the zeke. If I don't have altitude to B-n-Z and, don't have help with me I don't have too many options.
It seems to me most of the people that are pissed at the HO should really be pissed at themselves for putting themselves in the situation in the first place. And, I agree it is sometimes made a moral issue in the MA..... That's BS.....
Another few weeks or so from now this subject will come up again and we'll rehash it. It will never end............
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never mind... moving on..
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My name is wagger and I am a HOer. :cheers:
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A reasonable statement. The standard behavior in the MA seems to point to the majority feeling differently though. I just don't see how it's reasonable when there are 2 forces 20 planes strong in an area to expect people to politely pair off into 20 'honorable duels'. Frankly, that's not anywhere near as exciting as a furball, IMO.
Wiley.
heck no a good "furball" is awesome just like a good 1vs1
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heck no a good "furball" is awesome just like a good 1vs1
Yep, I find both a good time. It does kind of suck when the furball peters out and you're the only green guy around, but hey that's how you get better. :D
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Ace's High is about air combat......Yes, the GV's are there but, that is all secondary. The war is probably third.....IMO.
As far as the HO is concerned I 100% agree w/ Impakt. I HO as well but, that is just one of many ways to win a fight. I prefer to use the way that will win the fight and not damage my plane with the exception being some of the things Impakt stated.
If I know I'm flying against fragile zekes.... and I'm flying an F4F; I'll set my convergence farther out HO and break when I get to 400. It's very hard to hit me w/ the zekes poor ballistics cannons and the 7mm popgun doesn't do much. After all I can't turn and can't slow down vs. the zeke. If I don't have altitude to B-n-Z and, don't have help with me I don't have too many options.
It seems to me most of the people that are pissed at the HO should really be pissed at themselves for putting themselves in the situation in the first place. And, I agree it is sometimes made a moral issue in the MA..... That's BS.....
Another few weeks or so from now this subject will come up again and we'll rehash it. It will never end............
Make up your mind, combat is FIGHTING, HOin is just killing, and has absolutely NO fighting involved. :rolleyes:
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See Joe as long as they get a kill they think it's a fight.
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:cry Sad isn't it? :frown:
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Fugitive you complain so much it is really hard to respect anything you say.
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Apparently, you didn't read anything I wrote, and hence it is pointless to rebut this.
Then why are you?
I am neither an inexperienced player nor amongst the elite or even the very good--- with that said it isn't always that easy.
I didn't make any comment on your skill/experience whatsoever. Zip, nada not one. Did you read my post?
I have never understood why SOME (few I hope) people in this game are so given to excessive pride and rudeness. Another sign of the collapse of civility in our society I suppose. One CAN argue forcefully, passionately, and even wittily for one's ideas and against what I have written, but it shouldn't have to be an ad hominem insult
There's not a single insult of you in my post.. anywhere. Zip, nada, not one. Please, grow a few layers of skin, yours is way way too thin.
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(2) Plane type HO's. I tend to avoid getting in front of 110s, N1ks, Typhoons, F4U 1-Cs. I make it a point NOT to. I don't fly straight at them hoping the pilot will wave as I pass. I play because of my interest in WWII---I don't like games online, and I play no other. Read the Osprey books on WWII AC----they are FULL OF HO ATTACKS. See the Hurri Aces book---a guy in a Hurri I Ho-ing 110s (he got 2 before bailing). The HO was part of real life P-40 and P-38 tactics vs most IJ AC.
And probably a good reason why there are more dead pilots who won the MOH then live ones.
Remember in WWII there was such a thing as acceptable loses. As is evidenced by the way some recon missions were set up.
You sent a patrol out. If they didnt come back you knew there were enemy in that area. Soldiers and pilots were expendable commodities in WWII
It was a valid tactic yes. but it was also an extremely stupid one
Course you only hear the stories of the ones that lived to tell about it. I wonder if the dead ones could talk if they still say it was a "valid tactic"
Think about it. here you get to die over and over again.
If your life were really at risk in this game would you still opt for a HO unless you were vastly outnumbered or out of other choices?
If you had to leave the game for the rest of the week every time you died even. I wonder how many would still use the HO as the shot of choice?
I can agree to a certain extent with most of the circumstances you mention and am only commenting on the one I quoted.
The vast problem here if it can be called that is so many use the HO as their shot of first choice.
I can site one classic example that happend two nights ago. I was trying to RTB bingo ammo and low fuel in a D9 when I came across a high spit. He had both alt and E on me. By most reasoning he should have been able to best me. but he kept going for the HO shot over and over again while I was going for the maneuver on the merge. Each time I ended up either dodging him or behind him. Had I had ammo thee were no less then 5 times I could have easily killed him (aint that always the case when your bingo ammo? LOL)
Eventually a couple of friendies showed up and chased him off.
This guy wasnt even trying to get a position on me the HO was his shot of first choice as that was the only set up he was trying for.
I eventually called out to him telling him "If you had spent as much time worrying about your maneuvering as you did trying to set up your HO. You probably would be landing a kill right now."
Condoning the HO in game because it was a valid tactic in WWII is bad form. Because those who consistently use the HO as their first shot of choice never get any better until they learn to abandon that tactic
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You know you say you're for the fight. Then hold up historical data stating th HO was part of real life to justify HOing in the game That argument doesn't hold water. You can't compare what we do for recreation, to war. War in real life wasn't about the fight it was about surviving.
In AH what's the worse thing that's going to happen to you? Heaven forbid you might learn something and become a better cartoon pile-it. Now that would be a tragic fate.
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Actually you did. Karaya, I don't think he even got your meaning lol.
Yeah, I did call you out first. But you started to respond like a jerk. Can we agree on this? :cheers:
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My name is wagger and I am a HOer. :cheers:
Nice to meet you!
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I didn't make any comment on your skill/experience whatsoever. Zip, nada not one. Did you read my post?
There's not a single insult of you in my post.. anywhere. Zip, nada, not one. Please, grow a few layers of skin, yours is way way too thin.
Oh sure you did. Don't pretend innocence.
You put words in his mouth that say he is NOT skilled enough to survive the failed HO attempt against an experienced player, which pretty much implies he is skillless.
Yet another rude worthless reply, which results in bad mood.
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...is that a take out option at IHOP?? with gravey?? :O
...sorry - couldn't resist :neener:
...cheers eh! :D
IHOP? I think it is, if IHOP stands for "I HO Persistently".
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the "war" is there to promote AIR COMBAT plain and simple.
The "war" is and should always be secondary.
"should"... hmm...
a normative word, raising more questions than it answers...
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I havnt read anything in this thread yet...........
It doesnt take 2 to HO, only merge
:noid
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Yeah, I did call you out first. But you started to respond like a jerk. Can we agree on this? :cheers:
It had nothing to do with hubris, insert anyones name where I said "I". You missed the whole point. So no I don't agree.
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Oh sure you did. Don't pretend innocence.
You put words in his mouth that say he is NOT skilled enough to survive the failed HO attempt against an experienced player, which pretty much implies he is skillless.
Yet another rude worthless reply, which results in bad mood.
Where exactly did you read this? Take that huge chip off your shoulder and I'm sure that "bad mood" will improve. :D
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It had nothing to do with hubris, insert anyones name where I said "I". You missed the whole point. So no I don't agree.
How about this:
Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have and I do think I know how it works. If you feel the need to rely on that type of thing, as many do, by all means take the shot. I'll kill you shortly after and it will all be for naught. It's really as simple as that.
and later
Lol, unlike you I have a life outside the game. Other than running your mouth, what else do you do? A little too sensitive for this game or the forum for that matter.
You sure did not miss any chance to put yourself into the spotlight, didn't you?
Where exactly did you read this?
Between the lines.
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Fugitive you complain so much it is really hard to respect anything you say.
I'm sorry I don't post up to your standards. I just call them as I see them. Take it for what it's worth.
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How about this:
and later
You sure did not miss any chance to put yourself into the spotlight, didn't you?
Between the lines.
You still miss the point apparently. Insert your name if you like.
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Wow...Since we have this much converstaion about HOing...start one about why hiding cvs is ridiculous!!!!!!
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Wow...Since we have this much converstaion about HOing...start one about why hiding cvs is ridiculous!!!!!!
Go ahead.
Or can't you do your own dirty work? :noid
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all you need to do in a Head On is roll out, usually your enemy is moving too fast to keep with, and when you roll out do a fast loop you're suddenly on their six and shooting...