Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Simba on April 21, 2010, 04:50:40 AM
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Top-scoring ace of the First World War Manfred von Richthofen was shot down and killed in his Fokker Triplane 92 years ago today. Who fired the fatal shot remains in dispute - unlike in AH, when you usually know who got you.
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he would be pretty darn :old: by now :O
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Its also my Birthday Woo Hoo!! Single Malt here i come. Old enough to know better and young enough not to care
ok hijack over lol
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If ya ever want to read a good book about him try to find Richthofen- A true History of the Red Baron by William E Burrows
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-Penguin
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Mazel Tov. :salute
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If ya ever want to read a good book about him try to find Richthofen- A true History of the Red Baron by William E Burrows
I was lucky enough to have done an extensive bit of research on Manfred. It was also a gift to have shared a number of phone calls with Dale Titler (author of "The Day The Red Baron Died") who's exhaustive research and cultivating personal relationships with as many surviving witnesses as possible put together one heck of a book.
It was true Kismet when I met "Anna", the von Richthofen family gardner in Schweidnitz, on a flight from Frankfurt to Chicago (O'Hare) in April of 1979. It was one of the most intrigueing conversation I have ever been lucky to have.
:salute Manfred.
ROX
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Top-scoring ace of the First World War Manfred von Richthofen was shot down and killed in his Fokker Triplane 92 years ago today. Who fired the fatal shot remains in dispute - unlike in AH, when you usually know who got you.
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Well, it's been shown that Brown didn't score the kill on the Red Baron as he's been credited with.
ack-ack
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I thought it was pretty widely accepted now that he was brought down by an Australian ground gunner.
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As I've posted elsewhere, there's two film clips on which von Richthofen appears at, of all places, a Holocaust museum (due to the young Goering also being on the film).
http://resources.ushmm.org/film/search/index.php
Search on Richthofen - should be two clips, both shot by Anthony Fokker. Various other aces also appear, including Voss. Good shots of DVIIs and Dr.Is in the air, DVIII and captured Spad on the ground, as well as von R's 61st victim, Algy Bird, and the wreck of the latter's Sopwith Pup.
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I thought it was pretty widely accepted now that he was brought down by an Australian ground gunner.
I think a good CSI unit today would find different results if there was any of the physical evidence still in existence. Unfortunately the body was reduced to bones at the time vonR was moved home for reburial (his skull came many years later when it was found by P.J. Carisella). The bullet disappeared at the time of the autopsy (or shortly before) leading to more and more rumors as time went on. We know about where the bullet is but it would be difficult and expensive to retrieve it (not to mention taking possibly many years to accomplish). Its not worth knowing that much.
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It was true Kismet when I met "Anna", the von Richthofen family gardner in Schweidnitz, on a flight from Frankfurt to Chicago (O'Hare) in April of 1979. It was one of the most intrigueing conversation I have ever been lucky to have.
Schweidnitz today is called Wroclaw (Poland). It must have been fascinating to hear how she escaped from behind the iron curtain (which didnt fall until 1990).
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We know about where the bullet is but it would be difficult and expensive to retrieve it [...]
:huh
please explain. Is that a quote or do you (!) mean you know where the bullet is, regarding to "we"???
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I thought it was pretty widely accepted now that he was brought down by an Australian ground gunner.
Just last night History Channel replayed the Unsolved History episode about the death of the Red Baron. It's sad that the Australian gunner that is now believed to be the one that shot down the Red Baron died a penniless drifter in 1925 without knowing his place in history.
ack-ack
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Yep, it's pretty hard for anyone in a plane to have been the shooter because of several reasons.
Mr.Brown certainly didn't have any problems in claiming the fame of it though...
I was in a perfect position above and behind. ... neither plane, (Richthofen or May) was aware of me ... I had dived until the red snout of my Camel pointed fair at his tail. My thumbs pressed the triggers. Bullets ripped into his elevator and tail planes. The flaming tracers showed me where they hit. A little short! Gently I pulled back on the stick. The nose of the Camel rose ever so slightly. Easy now, easy. The stream of bullets tore along the body of the all-red tripe. Its occupant turned and looked back. I had a flash of his eyes behind the goggles. Then he crumpled - sagged In the cockpit ... Richthofen was dead. The triplane staggered, wobbled, stalled, flung over on its nose and went down. The reserve trenches of the Australian infantry was (sic) not more than 200 feet below. It was a quick descent. May saw it. I saw it as I swung over. And Mellersh saw it.
http://www.indysquadron.com/id112.html (http://www.indysquadron.com/id112.html)
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:huh
please explain. Is that a quote or do you (!) mean you know where the bullet is, regarding to "we"???
P.J. Carisella did the research and found the man (McCarty) from Australia that confessed to having the bullet (he was an orderly at the autopsy of the Baron). McCarty took the bullet while souvenir hunting on the body. The bullet had emerged from the body just below the left nipple and hit the Barons wallet but did not pass through or into the wallet. The bullet was damaged (bent) and there was very little blood present. Now this was the interview of McCarty many years after the Baron died and was conducted by another Australian gunner from the same unit.
McCarty cleaned out his home of all 'ancient' records following the death of his mother and burned records and souvenirs (including the bullet) from the war in a rubbage heap behind his home. I would think it would still be possible to retrieve that bullet but only if there has not been substantial construction on the site.
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I was in a perfect position above and behind. ... neither plane, (Richthofen or May) was aware of me ... I had dived until the red snout of my Camel pointed fair at his tail. My thumbs pressed the triggers. Bullets ripped into his elevator and tail planes. The flaming tracers showed me where they hit. A little short! Gently I pulled back on the stick. The nose of the Camel rose ever so slightly. Easy now, easy. The stream of bullets tore along the body of the all-red tripe. Its occupant turned and looked back. I had a flash of his eyes behind the goggles. Then he crumpled - sagged In the cockpit ... Richthofen was dead. The triplane staggered, wobbled, stalled, flung over on its nose and went down. The reserve trenches of the Australian infantry was (sic) not more than 200 feet below. It was a quick descent. May saw it. I saw it as I swung over. And Mellersh saw it.
http://www.indysquadron.com/id112.html (http://www.indysquadron.com/id112.html)
Sheesh , what a picktard :)
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Just last night History Channel replayed the Unsolved History episode about the death of the Red Baron. It's sad that the Australian gunner that is now believed to be the one that shot down the Red Baron died a penniless driver in 1925 without knowing his place in history.
They got it wrong of course. According to the most likely scenario (offered up in 'perfect' forensic scenario) it was Gunr. Popkin that actually killed the Baron. Popkin said many times he didnt care who it was that actually killed the Baron but that it was only important that the 'Hun' that was killing 'our boys' was dead (paraphrased). All of the gunners thought it was cheeky of Brown to have claimed the kill and Brown himself at the time said it was his superiors that insisted he do so.
From the angles offered in all the diagrams I have seen of the gunner positions and the flight path of the Baron... none of them could have fired a shot that came from the lower right quadrant and passed a bullet through the back and chest of the Baron. However after the crash of the Tripe several riflemen had the opportunity and to any of them it would have been 'just another German.' I believe this has remained a mystery only because it was wished to be a mystery at the time.
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Sheesh , what a picktard :)
Tabloid type jornalism by a writer and not an interview of Brown himself. Brown never said this.
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Tabloid type jornalism by a writer and not an interview of Brown himself. Brown never said this.
Please elaborate?
It could well be just words put into his mouth but I'd like to know how you are so certain about it?
From Wikipedia:
Brown himself never spoke much about what happened that day, claiming "There is no point in me commenting, as the evidence is already out there".
So it could well be that that describtion is work of a "journalist". Anyway. It's pretty clear that it must have been pretty clear for Brown that he wasn't the shooter but he certainly didn't make huge effort to set people straight...
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I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication that was commisioned without Browns knowledge or permission.
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I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication that was commisioned without Browns knowledge or permission.
Ok, in other words you aren't certain. :)
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What part of 'I am certain' do you not understand? Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it.
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What part of 'I am certain' do you not understand? Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it.
Not to be an a-hole but...Clinton & Lewinsky...Iraq and WMDs...depends on who you believe.
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I will take the word of the primary vonR researcher (Carisella) and Brown over any tabloid type publication.
EDIT: Look this is really easy to understand. This type of 'paperback' fiction was very typical following the war. Paperbacks were cheap (about $0.10 per book) and the public was very hungry for tales from the air war. The writer that created that bit of fiction didnt talk to anyone that was actually there and ad-libbed the entire story. Brown never said that.
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I understand Chalenge...but I was actually referring to Brown...is it not possible that to maintain some semblance of popularity/dignity that he "retracted his statement"?...as easy as it was to write a novel it was just as easy to make claims contrary to what was quoted since there was no way to record the interviewees voice.
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I think its much more likely that Brown stuck to his previous statements. Originally he said that he had a brief shot at extreme range and later witnessed a red Tripe having crashed. He put in that account and was awarded the kill by the RAF. Note that he never at any time claimed to have killed the Red Baron. He even spoke to the Australian gunnery crews and stated to them that he believed they had gotten the Baron.
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What part of 'I am certain' do you not understand? Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it.
And what part of the "please elaborate you can't understand?? I asked why you think the way you do and just said "I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication".
Why was it so hard to say: "Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it." ...in the first place???
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And what part of the "please elaborate you can't understand?? I asked why you think the way you do and just said "I am certain about it because those words come from an action publication".
Why was it so hard to say: "Carisella spoke to Brown about that very quote and he said he never gave it." ...in the first place???
Both ways of answering say the same thing.
I guess you dont understand or didnt understand what I was saying when I said 'action publication' (meaning dime novel). Anyone that has looked at the Baron controversy in any depth knows that there has been more fiction written about Brown than about Richthofen. 'He said this' or 'he said that' when in reality he always said the same thing. The reason Brown finally went into 'There is no point in me commenting, as the evidence is already out there" mode is because people would ask and then report what they pleased and not what Brown actually said.
Newspapers today do the same thing.
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Schweidnitz today is called Wroclaw (Poland). It must have been fascinating to hear how she escaped from behind the iron curtain (which didnt fall until 1990).
Świdnica is the new post-war name given to it by the Polish government after most all German residents had fled before the Russian Army on the Eastern Front near the end of the war. Wroclaw is a totally different town, but most believe is the city of BIRTH of Manfred and possibly others of the von Richthofen family.
Here are some decent chunks of our conversation:
(She had evidently arrived at the airport at Frankfurt very early like I did and checked her luggage early because her's was the last luggage to come off the conveyer with mine. She had this HUGE black steamer trunk that HAD to weigh well over 100 pounds and there was NO way a fine lady of her age could be toting it around so I kept advancing it up the line for her--she was very nice about thanking me for doing it. Turns out the trunk was not only her stuff for a 2 month stay with her daughter's family in Evergreen Park, IL, but choked full of gifts for all her grandkids.)
She spoke no English and I noticed her accent was a tad different than I had heard before, so--to make pleasant conversation, I asked here where she was from. She seemed to brush it off and said "you would never know where it is, none of the young people know...it's not even a part of Germany anymore." I asked, "are you from Silesia?" You should have seen the look on her face! " Why yes, I am!" she said. I said, "Are you from Schweidnitz?" Her jaw dropped and she turned all but white. "Why should you ask such a thing? Who told you to ask that of me!" She actually took a stern tone and looked a bit "cheesed off" to say the least. I was horribly afraid I had offended her in some way.
I started to apologize if I had offended her and she softened her tone and asked again "How do you know of Schweidnitz?" I tried to explain that that was the place the von Richthofen Estate was...and before I could even get any further she actually cut me off and she asked "What do you know of the family von Richthofen?" I explained I had done quite a bit of research on the parents and children and started to mention the silver cups Manfred had made to celebrate each air victory until (then she cut me off again) .."until the silver ran out..." she said. I agreed that that is what I had heard. She looked me in the eye and just blurted it out..."I am Anna, the gardener." I didn't quite know what she was saying. "I am Anna, the gardener for the Family von Richthofen." I was shocked! What were the odds?
When I asked her about Manfred, she had this quirky smile on her face when she talked about him (I got the feeling she had some sort of young girl crush on him back then). She said she was about 17 or so during the closing year or so of WWI. I said I had heard that I had heard Manfred was more serious and that Lothar was more of a jokester. "Kwatch!" she said, don't you believe that!" she said. "Manfred was just as playful." She then related a story about how she looked forward to times the brothers came home on leave, although she said she usually didn't see them much. She told me a story about doing some gardening and being so focused on what she was doing did not notice Manfred sneaking up on her. "He pinched me on the (backside)" she said, almost blushing like a school-girl. "One didn't think about him being famous, although he most certainly was."
I asked her about how how it was she got out when the Russians came. "We had heard the Russian "great" guns for some days, and the rumors were they could break through at any time". She told me that mother von Richthofen had hastily stuffed some items in a car and that they had decided to travel West, specifically towards the American lines, who drove she didn't say. She said the family specifically offered her to go with them. They ended up around the Baden-Baden area when the war was over and she had appreciated the "ride" the family had given her.
She didn't say where she lived at the time, but she didn't mention anything about moving away from the Baden-Baden area after that. She did hint that some of Manfred's WWI war years friends did keep in touch with the family, I think she was hinting at Gen. Karl Bodenschatz, but did not mention him by name. It was kind of implied.
She flew through customs and I put her bag on a porter's cart who took it from there. After I had a tad of customs problems (I was carrying an Isreali orange in a lunch packed by my German "mom" who packed for me to eat on the train, and had to surrender it to the customs official who promptly began peeling it and eating it as he walked away when I was cleared).
When I came out of customs she was still waiting there for her daughter's family to pick her up. I promptly introduced her to my girlfriend (and future wife) and my father who came to pick me up. My father was courteous but spoke no German and had never heard of von Richthofen. My girfriend said she was proud to meet her in her limited German then promptly told Anna what her birthday was. Anna smiled and winked and that was the last I saw of her--off to Evergreen Park, IL to see her daughter and meet her grandchildren, presumably for the very first time.
What are the odds?
I have always been grateful for that 30 minutes stuck at the end of the customs line at O'Hare with Anna.
ROX
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Very cool ROX. :aok
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Wow, great story Rox, thanks!!
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Facinating ROX, thank you!
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Actually, I have always considered it the "jackpot" of a slice in time to meet someone who had a direct link to someone I had studied so much about. There could have been no better luck.
ROX
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I believe 'Anna' lied to you Rox.
The groundskeeper in Silesia was a man (mentioned in many letters and affects of the family) and if you have read anything about the Baron you will recall that he got after little Manfred for several destructions of the landscape. It was common to have male employees outside and females inside during Manfreds time. The reverse would be contrary to the thinking of the Aristocrats and especially the Richthofens. Further along it would have been an affront for Manfred to have touched a woman or girl of lower class (at the earlier age yes but he certainly would not be pinching a woman like you described). It was a completely different time and not familiar to anyone of our 'age' at all.
The family moved to western Germany in 1945 while fleeing from the Russians and if I recall correctly (I am still waiting for the family historian to return my email) they moved into the 5th floor of an apartment (no garden). But regardless 'Anna' told you she was working for the family in Manfreds era as the 'gardener' and thats not possible. By the mid-1960s (I believe 1961 for his sister and 1963 for the mother) the Richthofens of his era were all dead except for Bolko who died in 1970. I believe Bolko lived in Wiesbaden in a one level apartment near the cemetary at which all family members are now buried.
Manfred is the one individual I know of who has had four funerals.
Sorry to rain on your parade and connection to history but there it is.
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The two exceptions of course would be the 'head of servants' which is also known as the 'Butler' in our society and the personal 'batman' (manservant).
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I believe 'Anna' lied to you Rox.
The groundskeeper in Silesia was a man
she said she was 17, maybe her father was the head gardener. as far as the "proper" way for a man to conduct himself in "different" times, how would u know if he strictly followed this social code? maybe he liked to have himself a lil squeeze every now and then. It was certainly taboo for slave owners to sleep with slaves back in a different time, but it sure happened, didn't it
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You live in a different time thats for sure. :rolleyes:
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You live in a different time thats for sure. :rolleyes:
funny thing, we live in the same time. maybe you can't see that from 30k.... :bolt:
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That really adds to the discussion.
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You live in a different time thats for sure. :rolleyes:
^^^^^so does this.....
i was simply pointing out an alternative to your "rainy parade" but hey man, i forgot that you don't get it wrong. excuse me for my misstep
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Look its real simple even for a 'gifted' one like you. If you cant contribute to the thread and all you can do is insult people and act like a loon then just keep it zipped.
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Look its real simple even for a 'gifted' one like you. If you cant contribute to the thread and all you can do is insult people and act like a loon then just keep it zipped.
i was commenting on the thread. YOU were the one to get off topic. go back 6 posts and reread. i didnt comment to insult anyone. i'm not sure what you're getting at, but you sure seem butt-hurt. how can u tell someone not to throw insults while u throw insults?? "gifted" indeed.......
getting back to the OP.....did Von Richtofen fly just the Tri-plane, or did he fly others as well?
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fight! fight! fight!
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See... you really dont know anything about the man.
Yes your comment directed at the mans morals is what I responded to... and you did go directly to insult with your 30k comment. Dont even try to polish over it. And this 'gifted' polish your spreading is more masked insults. Its not a terrible thing to read a few books and pick up on a few things.
vonR started in bombers as an observer but got private training from his pilot (he called him the 'driver') and failed his initial flight examination at least once. He was flying the Roland C.II (as pilot) when Boelcke came looking for pilots. vonR was embarassed to present himself (thinking it too forward) for fighter service to his idol and so Boelcke went to him. Probably it was the forward firing machine gun mounted on his Roland (and adjusted to fire over the propellor) that offered evidence to Boelcke that vonR had what a fighter pilot needed. He flew fighters starting with the Eindekker and moving on to the Tripe much later. He actually flew a lot of fighters during his career and had decided to change to the D.VII but he was killed before deliveries. He actually had one of only three (unarmed) Albatros C.IX built that he used to travel around the country.
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See... you really dont know anything about the man.
Yes your comment directed at the mans morals is what I responded to... and you did go directly to insult with your 30k comment. Dont even try to polish over it. And this 'gifted' polish your spreading is more masked insults. Its not a terrible thing to read a few books and pick up on a few things.
vonR started in bombers as an observer but got private training from his pilot (he called him the 'driver') and failed his initial flight examination at least once. He was flying the Roland C.II (as pilot) when Boelcke came looking for pilots. vonR was embarassed to present himself (thinking it too forward) for fighter service to his idol and so Boelcke went to him. Probably it was the forward firing machine gun mounted on his Roland (and adjusted to fire over the propellor) that offered evidence to Boelcke that vonR had what a fighter pilot needed. He flew fighters starting with the Eindekker and moving on to the Tripe much later. He actually flew a lot of fighters during his career and had decided to change to the D.VII but he was killed before deliveries. He actually had one of only three (unarmed) Albatros C.IX built that he used to travel around the country.
not trying to polish anything over. we all know how you fly(insult), theres no polishing over that.
I never pretended to know anything at all about the guy, except that he had 80 kills(?) and that they made good pizza named after him.
and u were the one to call me "gifted" i simply responded to that by calling you "gifted" back. pretty clever huh?
if i have an insult for you, believe me, i won't try to mask it. and i certainly won't try turning the whole back on you once i've stated said insult.
TY for the info btw, i asked because i wanted to know.
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Well at least some people in the game have enough brains to know flying when they see it (unlike what you do).
Red Baron pizza is an insult to vonR so if thats all you know about the subject you should probably read instead of posting.
Say what you want your squelched. :aok
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Well at least some people in the game have enough brains to know flying when they see it (unlike what you do).
Red Baron pizza is an insult to vonR so if thats all you know about the subject you should probably read instead of posting.
Say what you want your squelched. :aok
lol we all love you Voss. see ya at 30k buddy :cheers:
P.S. by flying do u mean buzzing around 10k over fights and running your buns off at the first sign of danger? if thats what you meant by flying, you're absolutely right. I guess I just don't know anything about flying. :x
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Hi Im an idiot and I never miss a chance to prove it to everyone.
Kiss me Im lonely!
Fixed.
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I believe 'Anna' lied to you Rox.
I have no reason what so ever that her story was in any way untrue.
When I posted it, I firmly believed that the griefers would make any and all sport of it as a falsehood and was correct at the responses.
At the time of this by hugely by luck meeting an almost 80 year old and frail woman's word was taken as fact as who was she speaking to? A reporter with some axe to grind or some 18 year old kid who was helping her with her luggage?
I'd take her word over the griefers on this board any day.
ROX
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:salute
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Fixed.
I thought you squelched me, Voss! for a second you had me thinking you might have thrown the hook.... :uhoh
P.S. what do you have against Red Baron pizza?? is it some C.I.A. thing?