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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: bigjava_4stormo on April 21, 2010, 10:08:33 PM

Title: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 21, 2010, 10:08:33 PM
i wish a italian bomber

i put here the most significative italian bomber
axis need some new bomber....

S.M ( Savoia Marchetti) 79 "Sparviero" (Sparrowhawk)

"The Savoia-Marchetti S.79 "Sparviero" (Sparrowhawk) was the most representative (and photographed) Italian bomber of the World War II. Originally was designed as a fast passenger transport aircraft. The three-engined, torpedo and medium-bomber was easily recognizable due to having a distinctive fuselage "hump", and was well-liked by its crews who gave it the nickname Gobbo Maledetto ("damned hunchback"). The S.79 first saw action in the Spanish Civil War, and remained in service in Italy until 1952."

Savoia Marchettis S.79 flying over the Otranto's Channel in 1941
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/sm79_otranto_1941.jpg)

Two pictures on an odd accident between an Italian Savoia Marchetti S.79 and a Junkers Ju 88. In the photo sharing site where the pics come from (http://www.flickr.com), the funny title was "Love in in the air"
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/s79_ju88.jpg)


(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/s79_ju88_2%20.jpg)

some other nice photo and description

http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale03.htm




Cant Z 1007 "Alcione"   (The alcione is a good omen bird supposed to nest when the sea is calm)



 The Cant Z.1007 was developed from the Cant Z.506 seaplane, an aircraft that had established many world records in the late 1930s. It was a land-based version and incorporated many improvements, especially on the powerplant. Filippo Zapata, the father of many aerodynamically streamlined aircraft, designed the Z.506. As a land-based bomber, it was better than other machines already in service with the Regia Aeronautica and therefore, a first series of 32 were ordered, and designated Z.1007 Asso, after its 619 kW (830 hp) Isotta-Fraschini Asso inline engines.
The Asso engines had annular radiators so their profile was similar to radial engines that would be fitted later. The first prototype flew in March 1937, but lacked an improvement in performance compared to the Savoia-Marchetti S.79 "Sparviero", even with 430 km/h (270 mph). Improvements were made with Piaggio P.XI engines, capable of 750 kW (1,000 hp) and the Z.1007bis went into production in 1939 displaying more capability than all previous Italian bombers.
Info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.1007



Cant Z.1007 bis "Alcione" twin tail of the 191st Squadrion, 86th Group, 35th Wing B.T. (land bombers) started from Brindisi for a bombing mission over the Grecian hinterland (1024x713)

(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/cantz/cant_z1007bis_191sq_86gr_35st_bt_grecia.jpg)


(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/cantz/cantz_1007bis_59a.jpg)








Fiat BR. 20 "Cicogna"  (Stork)


In 1934, Regia Aeronautica requested Italian aviation manufacturers to submit proposals for a new medium bomber. The specifications called for speeds of 330 km/h (205 mph) at 4,500 m (15,000 ft) and 385 km/h (239 mph) at 5,000 m (16,500 ft), a 1,000 km (620 mi) range and 1,200 kg (2,600 lb) bomb load. Although Piaggio, Macchi, Breda, Caproni and Fiat offered aircraft that mainly exceeded the speed requirements (but not range), not all exhibited satisfactory flight characteristics or reliability. Accepted among the successful proposals, together with the tri-motor Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 and Cant Z.1007, was the BR.20 "Cicogna" designed by Celestino Rosatelli. In fact, "BR" stands for "Bombardiere Rosatelli" (Rosatelli Bomber)


(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/fiat_br20.jpg)

  The   Fiat BR.20 SN.22621 243-2 of the 243rd Squadron forced down at Woodbridge, Suffolk, Battle of Britain. An officer holds wine and biscuts found in the Italian plane   

(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/br20_mm22621_243-2_woodbridge.jpg)

more photos
..........................

http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale04.htm
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Yossarian on April 21, 2010, 10:24:03 PM
You may want to change the title of this thread.  "Spaghetti bombers" is at best undescriptive, and at the very least....well yeah  :P

Also, nice post, but you should include some more figures on the plane (i.e. its speed, max altitude, etc).

+1, anyway :)
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Rino on April 21, 2010, 10:24:13 PM
     Well now we know where MC-202s come from  :D
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: AirFlyer on April 21, 2010, 10:49:53 PM
The P. 108 would be awesome, I doubt we'll ever see it though.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: caldera on April 21, 2010, 11:29:06 PM
The SM79 is so ugly the Ju-88 put a bag on her head.   :)


+1 for Spaghetti bombers.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Ardy123 on April 22, 2010, 12:27:51 AM
+1  :aok
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 22, 2010, 04:59:44 AM
You may want to change the title of this thread.  "Spaghetti bombers" is at best undescriptive, and at the very least....well yeah  :P

Also, nice post, but you should include some more figures on the plane (i.e. its speed, max altitude, etc).

+1, anyway :)

Yossarian have pointed rigth
spaghetti bomber is undescriptive
....but works like advertisement.....

Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79 Sparviero
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/it_bomber/italian_torpedo_bomber_sm79_savoia_marchetti.jpg)

(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/8/5/1053583.jpg)
Specifications:

Dimensions:
Wing span:    69 ft 6 1/2 in (21.2 m)
Length:    53 ft 1 3/4 in (16.2m)
Height:    13 ft 5.5 in (4.1 m)
Weights:
Empty:    16,755 lb (7,600 kg)
Operational:    24,192 lb (11,300 kg)
Performance:
Maximum Speed:    270 mph (434 km/h)
Service Ceiling:    23,000 ft (7,000 m)
Range:    1,243 miles (2,000 km)
Powerplant:
Powered by three 559 kW (750 hp) Alfa-Romeo 126 RC.34 radials. Later three Piaggio P.XI RC40 1,000 hp 14-cylinder radial. The twin-engined S.M. 79B variety. Romania built the 79JR under license with two 894 kW (1,200 hp) Junkers Jumo 211Da liquid-cooled engines.
Armament:
It carried a 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT gun firing ahead from the roof of the cockpit humpback that enabled bullets to clear the nose propeller; a second firing to the rear from the hump; a third aimed down and to the rear from the gondola under the rear fuselage; and often a 7.7 mm firing from each beam window. this needing a crew of at least five. The bombardier occupied the gondola with his legs projecting down in two retractable tubes during the bombing run. Up to 1,000 kg (2,205 lb) of bombs were carried in an internal bay; alternatively two 450 mm (17.7 in) torpedoes could be hung externally.

wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.79

film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cl69qp5O78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq3B6Lv-lc0




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cant Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher)


(http://www.hyperscale.com/images/cantz1007artwork_1.jpeg)
(http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/Regia2/cantz1007-5f.jpg)
Data from  The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II[8]

General characteristics

    * Crew: 5
    * Length: 18.35 m (60 ft 2.5 in)
    * Wingspan: 24.80 m (81 ft 4.5 in)
    * Height: 5.22 m (17 ft 1.5 in)
    * Wing area: 70 m² (750 ft²)
    * Empty weight: 9,396 kg (20,715 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 13,621 kg (30,029 lb)
    * Powerplant: 3× Piaggio P.XI RC.40 radial engines, 745 kW (1,000 hp) each

Performance

    * Maximum speed: 458 km/h (245 kn, 285 mph)
    * Cruise speed: 338 km/h (183 kn, 210 mph)
    * Range: 1,795 km (969 nmi, 1,115 mi)
    * Service ceiling: 7,500 m (25,000 ft)

Armament

    * Guns:
          o 2 × 12.7 mm (0.5 in) Isotta-Fraschini Scotti or Breda-SAFAT machine guns
          o 2 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns
    * Bombs:
          o 1,200 kg (2,645 lb) of bombs internally. 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) externally on underwing hardpoints. Or a combined load of 2,200 kg (4,900 lb) of bombs internally and on external hardpoints.
          o 2 × 450 mm (17.7 in) 800 kg (1,800 lb), torpedoes

wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.1007




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: 321BAR on April 22, 2010, 05:59:53 AM
sounds great if i get my M-18 first :aok
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 22, 2010, 06:39:51 AM
The Fiat BR.20 Cicogna (Italian: "stork")


the BR was sell to japan, jugoslavia and romania air force
a rare image of the br 20 that italy sell to japan army befor WWII began

(http://kits.kitreview.com/images/boxart.jpg)

(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/br20jb_1.jpg)

Specifications (Fiat Br.20M)

Data from The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II[16]

General characteristics

    * Crew: 5
    * Length: 16.68 m (54 ft 8 in)
    * Wingspan: 21.56 m (70 ft 8.75 in)
    * Height: 4.75 m (15 ft 7 in)
    * Wing area: 74.0 m² (796.5 ft²)
    * Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,330 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 10,100 kg (22,270 lb)
    * Powerplant: 2× Fiat A.80 RC.41 18-cylinder radial engine, 746 kW (1,000 hp) each

Performance

    * Maximum speed: 440 km/h (273 mph)
    * Cruise speed: 340 km/h (211 mph)
    * Range: 2750 km (1,709 mi)
    * Service ceiling: 8,000 m (26,250 ft)

Armament

    * Guns: 3× 12.7 mm (.5 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns
    * Bombs: 1,600 kg (3,530 lb) of bombs




film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2eP8t6GiU

wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_BR.20
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: kingcobradude on April 22, 2010, 12:45:27 PM
+1 on all 3
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Krusty on April 22, 2010, 12:56:54 PM
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/s79_ju88.jpg)

Now we know where Ju-52s come from!!
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: onan on April 22, 2010, 01:26:17 PM
I like them all, would be nice to see some different EW bombers.

+1
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Saxman on April 22, 2010, 01:34:51 PM
Not a bad idea for the future, but we have a few other Axis bombers (G4M and He-111) that had SIGNIFICANTLY bigger impacts on the war that are missing and are badly needed first.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: waystin2 on April 22, 2010, 01:38:32 PM
+1.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 22, 2010, 02:08:39 PM
Not a bad idea for the future, but we have a few other Axis bombers (G4M and He-111) that had SIGNIFICANTLY bigger impacts on the war that are missing and are badly needed first.


ok all agree that axis haven't few bombers that are not only planes but even a simbol of WWII...
but i undeline that we haven't italian bomber AT ALL
i mean cantZ and fiat br 20 were produced in little series but sm 79 is the bomber that have sunk
the most tons of allied convoy's ship in mediterraneo sea.



production of italian bomber:

fiat br 20 ----------------------> 514 airplanes produced  ( about 120 selled to japan and romania)

SAI marchetti S.M.81-----------> 534 airplanes produced

Cant Z.  1007 Bis---------------> 560 airplanes produced

SIAI marchetti S.M. 79 ---------> 1217 airplanes produced



i feel this lackness we need to have more fun he-111, g4m
but we need S.M. 79 becouse there is no italian bomber in AH :-)

Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Easyscor on April 22, 2010, 02:51:54 PM
You might send htc an email or PM to find out what documentation they'd need to consider putting it in-game.
For English speakers, there is very little available that would help model these planes. At least, for me, I was unable to find much with good translations, let alone flight manuals or manufacturing references. I wasted a lot of time searching on the P.108.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Liberator on April 22, 2010, 08:52:27 PM
I would love to see Italian bombers in Aces High!!!
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: perdue3 on April 23, 2010, 09:52:04 AM
We need he 111 way worse than SM 79.




perdweeb
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Simba on April 23, 2010, 06:39:50 PM
+1 for Eytie fighters 'n' bombers, they were great targets for RAF fighters, especially the BR.20s of the 'Chianti Air Force' that attacked East Anglia. We've still got a Fiat CR.42 from that lot, it's kept nicely in the RAF Museum at Hendon.

+2 for the Savoia-Marchetti SM 79, so long as HT models me a Gladiator to strafe them with in any North African scenario - and a Fulmar to give 'em grief if they try Aerosilurante torpedo strikes against the Mediterranean Fleet.

 :cool:  
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: IrishOne on April 23, 2010, 07:54:11 PM
We need he 111 way worse than SM 79.




perdweeb


agree, the 111 is far overdue
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 24, 2010, 12:51:18 AM

agree, the 111 is far overdue

i agree the he-111 is a must and there is no signs of it in ah.....
but the sense of my tread isn't point at it

i mean i want explain that there are Italians bombers
and we have no one
it's not to chose betwin he-111 and s.m. 79....
i wish an Italian bomber and i want to know if some other player agree with me...

i understood every player in AH know he-111
but it's not so sure any ah player know Italians bombers

 :airplane:
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: chewie86 on April 24, 2010, 03:03:42 AM
sm79!!

I need something else to do my torpedo runs with!
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Boozeman on April 25, 2010, 05:05:04 AM
+1 for any Italian bomber. And if it would be accompanied by the G.55, even better.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 25, 2010, 06:18:22 PM
+1 for any Italian bomber. And if it would be accompanied by the G.55, even better.

fiat g .55
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/fiatg55.jpg)

was one of nor the best betwin Italian figthers
the problem is that
the g 55 became operative very late in the war
when Italy was already at the collapse
infact g55 fought not under the Regia aereonautica (= Royal Italian air force, the national airforce )
but under Republica Sociale ( = social republic proclaimed by Mussolini and fascism council)
i mean when the Italy was splitted in two the south already free from Nazi and fascists
occupied by the allied forces and a  north under the axis control.
infact
the production was stopped by the German authorities in September 1944.
 A total of 148 G.55s
were delivered to the ANR ( = Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana (ANR), the air force of the fascist state created by Mussolini with the Germans' help in North Italy)
and,
when the factory was captured, 37 more examples were ready, while 73 were still on the production line, at various degree of completion.

in few words the  fiat g 55 is difficult to positionate in AH
because it was a rarity in the WWII
i suppose only in my dream i can see it in AH ( perked of course  :pray )
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: BrownBaron on April 25, 2010, 06:24:38 PM

ok all agree that axis haven't few bombers that are not only planes but even a simbol of WWII...
but i undeline that we haven't italian bomber AT ALL
i mean cantZ and fiat br 20 were produced in little series but sm 79 is the bomber that have sunk
the most tons of allied convoy's ship in mediterraneo sea.



production of italian bomber:

fiat br 20 ----------------------> 514 airplanes produced  ( about 120 selled to japan and romania)

SAI marchetti S.M.81-----------> 534 airplanes produced

Cant Z.  1007 Bis---------------> 560 airplanes produced

SIAI marchetti S.M. 79 ---------> 1217 airplanes produced



i feel this lackness we need to have more fun he-111, g4m
but we need S.M. 79 becouse there is no italian bomber in AH :-)



Erm...your grammer...is english a second language to you, or are you 5 years old?
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: bigjava_4stormo on April 25, 2010, 10:30:04 PM
Erm...your grammer...is english a second language to you, or are you 5 years old?

BrownBaron    :aok you got me........ of course i'm 5 years old   :D, and you ?  ;)
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: BrownBaron on April 25, 2010, 11:12:06 PM
eh...im feelin a nice even 4 today.  :frown:
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Boozeman on April 26, 2010, 05:50:10 AM

in few words the  fiat g 55 is difficult to positionate in AH
because it was a rarity in the WWII

AH has already planes and vehicles included with way smaller production numbers than the G.55. That alone should not be the deal breaker.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: mbailey on April 26, 2010, 06:13:22 AM
AH has already planes and vehicles included with way smaller production numbers than the G.55. That alone should not be the deal breaker.

+1
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Saxman on April 26, 2010, 07:14:38 AM
AH has already planes and vehicles included with way smaller production numbers than the G.55. That alone should not be the deal breaker.


Not in of itself, no, but considering that there's very important planes missing that had production runs equal to (G4M)--if not DOUBLING (He-111)--all of bigjava's requests COMBINED I'd say that places the G.55 and any of these bombers pretty low on the priority list.
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Boozeman on April 26, 2010, 04:35:11 PM
Not in of itself, no, but considering that there's very important planes missing that had production runs equal to (G4M)--if not DOUBLING (He-111)--all of bigjava's requests COMBINED I'd say that places the G.55 and any of these bombers pretty low on the priority list.

I can see your point, but, as ususally, this is where the 2 different philosophies of aircraft inclusion collied. Guys like you take the historical and scenario based approach, where production #s and scenario usability are paramount. Guys like me consider the 24/7 MA usability as the most important inclusion factor. I don't want to weigh each of these 2 approaches against each other, since both are equal concerns re. the further development of AH.

Thus, IMO the G4M, He111 and G.55 should be solidly in the middle of the priority list. The G4M and He111 both score high on scenario value, but most likely fail in MA value. The G.55 is the opposite.
I won't comment on the bombers, since I know too little about them. 
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: Motherland on April 26, 2010, 05:44:31 PM
grammer
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Spaghetti bombers
Post by: BrownBaron on April 26, 2010, 06:10:02 PM
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Lol, i was tired as diddly when i posted that...besides grammar and spelling are two different aspects of proper English.  :P