Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: papjohns on April 27, 2010, 10:54:31 AM
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It's nice that the allies are getting a new tank and the Mossie is being updated etc. But as an axis squadron given the fact that Fuel Burn is 2x it is making it impossible to launch any sort of Strategic Bombing attack using German Bombers. The JU88 simply does not have the range. How about the He177.
HTC; can we please either put a German Bomber into the planeset that has range and/or allow the introduction of skins for the KG200 B17s or better yet; a Do200? It just looks really dumb when 6 of my squaddies land and it says XYZ landed XYZ damage in a B17 of <insert any German Squad Name Here>...simply because of the above issues.
Thanks.
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Yes, please.
EDIT: Don't really care which one.....
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Please, yes.
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+1
I'm always for more bombers.
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whats the 88s range on max cruise?
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Do 217 FTW! :rock
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Pachnike-041-24A%2C_Flugzeug_Dornier_Do_17%2C_PK-Filmberichter.jpg)
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whats the 88s range on max cruise?
That's a hypothetical question... how far is a Ju 88 able to get into enemy airspace before getting shot down due to lack of speed, alt, and defensive armament? ;)
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We attempted a strategic bombing mission the other day with 6 sets of JU88s and 2xTa152 escorts; with 4x500Kg bombs (no 50KGs) we could barely make it to the target (150mi) and return safely (125mi) w/a cruise alt of 20k starting from a 5k base. We ended up diverting due to lack of fuel (100%). Now mind you the above is a pathetic 11 sectors (with 2 sectors being planned a single engine or glide back return). Our new "policy" is that we will fly B17s for these missions based on the KG200 history (though they were not used in such a capacity), until we can get a German Bomber that has range.
I could care less about the armament; first I have to be able to plan a mission that is realistic...and I can't do that based on the range of the JU88...unless I want to attack the city NOE (lol). Of course part of the issue is the 2x burn rate; for which the LW planes get to suffer (proportionally) more than most allied planes (if at 1xburn rate you have 6 hours of fuel; what do you care if it's 2x...whereas if at 1xyou have 2hrs of fuel going to 2x screws you).
Papa
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That's a hypothetical question... how far is a Ju 88 able to get into enemy airspace before getting shot down due to lack of speed, alt, and defensive armament? ;)
Someone might know who has a strong RAF background studying 1941/1942.
(Referring to it solely within the confines of the game is a different story as the Allies had no P-51-D, Typhoons, and Yak 9's in the early war of that time. It might be some interesting experiments for say, teams of 20 vs 20 to put up a historically accurate scenerio in the EW or AvA arena with timed takeoffs and contact times and altitudes of historical accuracy and give it a shot. If you are takling about LW--they are going to get BBQ'ed in a few passes.)
In Germany's magazine "Signal" of the day, they printed the lopsided graphs of the ranges of German fighter's and German bombers vs the ranges of RAF fighters and RAF bombers (not letting the cat out of the bag regarding newer/better medels in early production or models still on the drawing board.
The "Goliath" model was going to be one of Germany's longer range/heavier loadout models (in comparison to the ones we know and already have) but suffered in early trials do to the extreme overload on the engines and tendancy to catch fire.
The larger Heinkel and Dornier models some folks are refering to that did have a role in WWII (especially the BoB) were as quickly recalled from the front as the Stuka because of high disabilities to defend itself once most of it's escorts were "busy". Even the '88's with their ventral and two dorsal gunners had huge difficulties with small machine guns vs fighters with cannon and .303 mg.
Even so, a mass of JU-88's, some Heinkel 111's, some ME-110's with Messerschmitt and FW escorts did massive damage to UK southern ports and strategic military targets during the BoB.
ROX
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hmmm, max cruise doesnt add alot to 88s range at 20k, did a test and got almost exactly the same range as papajohn. 2200rpm gave an extra sector or so compared to 2500rpm.
btw I'm all for more luftwafe bombers :aok
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The lack of a real heavy/strategic bomber hindered the Luftwaffe through out the war - but given the scope of its operational methodology the German high command never saw it as a necessity until it was too late (methods formulated during the 30's based on the short range air support concepts of Blitzkrieg etc). Even when the lack of them became apparent the development of long range heavy bombers still took a back seat as Hitler put much more faith into his "wonder" weapons (more faith than they were actually able to deliver - V2's / jet jabos' etc).
BTW I'd classify the dorniers and heinkels mentioned as only medium class buffs - they certainly didn't have the range and lift capacity the allied heavies had ie.: full load to Berlin and back from the UK.
...cheers eh! :D
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I am all for more bombers, but keep in mind this.......... Hitler never put any effort into better bombers. Most, if not all operating bombers for the Luftwaffe were of the 2 engine variety........... Longest runs were across the English Channel.
With that said, there are no German bombers with range. Lusche, is that accurate?
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Steve Austin says............WHAT?
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We don't seem to have that problem in the AVA. Oh yeah, our burn rate is 1.0. maybe you guys should try out the AVA instead?
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I am all for more bombers, but keep in mind this.......... Hitler never put any effort into better bombers. Most, if not all operating bombers for the Luftwaffe were of the 2 engine variety........... Longest runs were across the English Channel.
With that said, there are no German bombers with range. Lusche, is that accurate?
Well at least one anyway :D Condor anyone?
(http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/fw200.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200)
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4,000lbs ord ...
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With that said, there are no German bombers with range. Lusche, is that accurate?
Well at least one anyway :D Condor anyone?
Depends on how you define "range" ;)
But first, the FW 200 was no bomber, and it was never used that way. It was a commercial airliner made into a maritime recon plane with the capability of carrying some bombs along... but it's success in that role (for a limited time though) wasn't really a result of the designs strengths as a bomber (or even combat plane)
But yes (or no? lol), the LW had no bombers comparable to the B-17 or B-29 with it's combination of payload, range and sturdiness. German plans didn't call for any bombers fulfilling a purely strategic, long range attrition bombing role, thus the lack of such heavy bombers. The He 177, planned as a kind of hybrid wasn't really one either, and ultimately failed at that role. Later in the war, when the lack of a long range "heavy" was felt, it was too late (both in terms of time as well as resources) to design and introduce one. There were a few prototypes and studies (most notable the He 277, He 274, Ju 288, Ju 488 and Me 264) but that's it.
Germany's main bombers during the war:
He 111
Do 17
Do 217
Ju 88
Ju 188
He 177
All but the 177 were merely medium bombers by Allied standards, though the Luftwaffe considered the Do 217 to be a "heavy" one by their own standards, particularly before the introduction of the He 177.
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Give 'em the He177, just so long as its engines catch fire as easily and as often as they did in real life. Ju290, anybody?
Hoho, yet another caller for a proper fuel-burn rate in the MAs - watch out for the Furballers' Chorus of 'wadda ya want that for?' that I got last time I proposed it.
:cool:
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I think if Germany had produced a Long Range Heavy Bomber in numbers during the war it would most likely be represented here. However they only produced Light to Medium Bombers in numbers and early in the war. So I dont really see any reason to have a model of a rare bird being represented in the game. If we do that where does it go, and where does it stop? We going to look for every prototype AC of WWII? I hope not. But these are just my thoughts on this topic. If the community wants to go there, then by all means lets go.
Later,
KayBay
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Hoho, yet another caller for a proper fuel-burn rate in the MAs - watch out for the Furballers' Chorus of 'wadda ya want that for?' that I got last time I proposed it.
:cool:
How about 100% fuel required as well? How about realistically spaced bases or missions?
The only reason for having a 1 to 1 fuel burn would be so you could take 25% or 50% fuel, and less weight, to do what you do now with 100% fuel.
Do you really think the "furballers" would complain about that?
wrongway
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I think if Germany had produced a Long Range Heavy Bomber in numbers during the war it would most likely be represented here. However they only produced Light to Medium Bombers in numbers and early in the war. So I dont really see any reason to have a model of a rare bird being represented in the game. If we do that where does it go, and where does it stop? We going to look for every prototype AC of WWII? I hope not. But these are just my thoughts on this topic. If the community wants to go there, then by all means lets go.
Later,
KayBay
There were about 1200 He177's produced. Compared to some of the rarer (47M, Ta152) birds we already have that is a lot. Just sayin..... :D
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There were about 1200 He177's produced. Compared to some of the rarer (47M, Ta152) birds we already have that is a lot. Just sayin..... :D
From Fail=o=pedia
Starting with the He 177 A-3/R2, a modified engine nacelle with a new engine, the Daimler-Benz DB 610 which consisted of a pair of Daimler-Benz DB 605's, was used to eliminate the tendency for engine fires.[16] With the introduction of the DB 610 came several improvements including the relocation of the engine oil tank, the lengthening of the engine mountings by 20 cm (8 in), the complete redesign of the exhaust system which also facilitated the installation of exhaust dampers for night missions, and the setting of a power limitation on the engines which resulted in greater reliability. These modifications were successful as far as engine fires were concerned but other minor problems with the transfer gearbox between the two engines and their shared propeller remained.
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Our new "policy" is that we will fly B17s for these missions based on the KG200 history (though they were not used in such a capacity), until we can get a German Bomber that has range.Papa
what about using the 25 or 26 instead of the 17...do the US med buffs have better range?
this wood at least put u in the realm of realistic (just a hare) by u using twin eng AC.
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Depends on how you define "range" ;)
But first, the FW 200 was no bomber, and it was never used that way. It was a commercial airliner made into a maritime recon plane with the capability of carrying some bombs along... but it's success in that role (for a limited time though) wasn't really a result of the designs strengths as a bomber (or even combat plane)
<shortened for brevity>
Hmm...so the FW-200 never dropped bombs on allied shipping? I really don't care what it was designed as.
The Ju-52, Do-17 and He-111 were all "designed" for another role originally. Yet all 3 performed as bombers at
one point in their careers.
I think 1920 miles qualifies as "range", not sure what your definition is.
I was just disputing the point that they had no bombers with range. Don't really care what birds they add, any
addition is a good thing.
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You claim the Ju88s have short range? It's also stupid to claim they were removed from service during the BOB because of their vulnerability. In fact, they served on until the end of the war, ever modified, ever improved.
Ju88s have plenty of range when you take full fuel. Fancy that, actually taking enough gas for a mission!! Keep in mind the FTH is around 17 or 18k. You won't get much difference between full throttle and max cruise at 20k because the engines cannot reach full power to begin with. You WILL notice it at 17k or below.
Wanting something else is all well and good. I want other german bombers as well. But wanting it because the Ju88 "doesn't have any range"????
That's just dumb. There are many reasons to want other german bombers. This is not one of them.
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:aok
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Hmm...so the FW-200 never dropped bombs on allied shipping? I really don't care what it was designed as.
They dropped bombs at allied shippings as long a they had the opportunity to do so.... as a secondary feature to their martime recon roles.
However, that still doesn't make them bombers. They were never used as genuine bombers by the Luftwaffe, they neber tried to drop any bombs on land targets at all, they did not even venture close to land because they would have been highly vulnerable.
The Ju-52, Do-17 and He-111 were all "designed" for another role originally. Yet all 3 performed as bombers at
one point in their careers.
Both the Do-17 as well as the He-111 were designed with bomber requirements in mind from the start. Both were designed after respective requirements by the RVM / Heereswaffenamt. Unlike the Ju-52 and Fw 200, they weren't converted with a lot of trouble to be used as a kind of stop-gap plane.
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Why not use the 234, that has nice range if you take full fuel and throttle back a little. It still has great range at full speed/high alt. The higher and faster you go, the lower the burn rate is if I remember correctly. Also, it has 9,900 lbs with a formation. I routinely used it to find carriers on that map with P86 and C87 where people would hide the CV in the upper corner. 20 sectors i think on full fuel.
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You claim the Ju88s have short range? It's also stupid to claim they were removed from service during the BOB because of their vulnerability. In fact, they served on until the end of the war, ever modified, ever improved.
Ju88s have plenty of range when you take full fuel. Fancy that, actually taking enough gas for a mission!! Keep in mind the FTH is around 17 or 18k. You won't get much difference between full throttle and max cruise at 20k because the engines cannot reach full power to begin with. You WILL notice it at 17k or below.
Wanting something else is all well and good. I want other german bombers as well. But wanting it because the Ju88 "doesn't have any range"????
That's just dumb. There are many reasons to want other german bombers. This is not one of them.
Sure if I want to go inside every DAR ring at 18K it has plenty of range....or maybe I can actually attempt to plan a mission that would make sense from a tactical standpoint.
Did you see what I typed, we tried this, 100% fuel (apparently you didn't read that part)...we diverted due to range issues. So yes, this is a reason...either that or give the 1xfuel burn back....240 miles is a joke for a "medium" bomber. This truely is an issue, just because you don't see it as such doesn't mean others don't...I have 8 squad mates that would agree with me based on our attempted strategic bombing missions using the German Bomber available to us. And no, this was not on a huge map by any stretch of the imagination.
So saying that because we want to use aircraft due to historical reasons (as a german squad) and not being able to use them due to a lack of reach to a strategic center of gravity and the lack of the german bombers such as the HE177 is not a good reason...well to each his own I guess.
Oh and thanks for calling me stupid. I like you skins, and you have obviously contributed alot to this community; but the tone of your post frankly sucks.
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So yes, this is a reason...either that or give the 1xfuel burn back....240 miles is a joke for a "medium" bomber.
Not on maps that are only 250 (small) resp 500 (large) miles across. Medium bombers had range limits in RL, and so they have in AH.
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Its range is considerably higher than 240 miles (480 with 1x fuel burn).
Again you're flying full throttle and well above optimal (FTH) alts.
Even wikipedia claims 1400 mile range (and that may be 1-way ferry range? I don't know for sure)
Other sources list as high as 1700 miles range.
So if you're only getting 240 miles on full internal fuel (approx 480 with 1x burn), you're not doing it right.
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Not on maps that are only 250 (small) resp 500 (large) miles across. Medium bombers had range limits in RL, and so they have in AH.
Yes, and that's why I want the HE177... :)
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Its range is considerably higher than 240 miles (480 with 1x fuel burn).
Again you're flying full throttle and well above optimal (FTH) alts.
Even wikipedia claims 1400 mile range (and that may be 1-way ferry range? I don't know for sure)
Other sources list as high as 1700 miles range.
So if you're only getting 240 miles on full internal fuel (approx 480 with 1x burn), you're not doing it right.
You have to take the climb to 18k into account....you are right if we would have taken off from the Af and went level it would have been much more. I went to tha TA for 1 hour prior to the mission to plan out the ranges, if you can get more range out of the JU88 given the parameters please tell me how, I would really like to know.
Sorry I would like to apologize for my bad math, we figured 275miles (so add 35 miles). Still a joke inmho.
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Its range is considerably higher than 240 miles (480 with 1x fuel burn).
in AH not really.
Total flight time at full military is 67 minutes. Optimum altitude for a Ju 88 is 18k, but a 100% fuel + 4x500kg Ju 88 (even without the 50kg bombs) takes about 30 minutes alone to reach that alt.
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Its range is considerably higher than 240 miles (480 with 1x fuel burn).
A quick equation here....
480 miles with 1x burn mult.
2x burn mult in the MA.
480/2=.....
taadaa
240 :P
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You miss my point. I wasn't saying that's what it was. I was saying it was more than that on 2x, and more than this on 1x. Even a 109 (relatively short range) has more range than that at over 600mi on 1x.
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I took some 88's out the other night to test this. I got more than the 11 sectors stated in the original post. I kept my rate of climb below 1.5 in my accent to 20k. once there I leveled at chopped back the throttle to maximum cruise. I got up and walked away from the computer. Was gone for a good 30 minutes came back and still airborn with about 40% remaining. I agree with other posters if you run full throttle you will burn your fuel faster. Use the max cruise setign and it has very good range.
BigKev
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I took some 88's out the other night to test this. I got more than the 11 sectors stated in the original post. I kept my rate of climb below 1.5 in my accent to 20k. once there I leveled at chopped back the throttle to maximum cruise. I got up and walked away from the computer. Was gone for a good 30 minutes came back and still airborn with about 40% remaining. I agree with other posters if you run full throttle you will burn your fuel faster. Use the max cruise setign and it has very good range.
BigKev
What range did you get? As I am unable to reproduce this. Rate of climb below 1.5? 1.5 what? Please pardon my ignorance. Was this in the MA or TA? Thanks.
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What range did you get? As I am unable to reproduce this. Rate of climb below 1.5? 1.5 what? Please pardon my ignorance. Was this in the MA or TA? Thanks.
1.5 thousand hundred feet per minute. That is a good climb rate for a fully loaded Ju-88 to 20k...most times I can barely maintain 900 feet per minute above 15k.
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1.5 thousand hundred feet per minute. That is a good climb rate for a fully loaded Ju-88 to 20k...most times I can barely maintain 900 feet per minute above 15k.
That's why I was curious about this....1.5k/min in an 88 with 2k kg of bombs and 100% fuel? Good luck. Hence I am assuming he meant something else. Unless I am supposed to drop good luck charms or friendship medals on the capital....
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it does beg the question how the RL Ju 88A-4 managed a range of 1500m+. I dont see how this is possible in AHs A-4, even with fuel burn at 1.0.
something here doesnt add up :headscratch:
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it does beg the question how the RL Ju 88A-4 managed a range of 1500m+. I dont see how this is possible in AHs A-4, even with fuel burn at 1.0.
something here doesnt add up :headscratch:
Fuel management. If you have the distance and not a lot of interference...you can drop your rpms and throttle back to max cruise settings...climb in increments of say 3 to 5k...level out, reach max cruise speed, set climb to 1.5 until you have climbed 3 to 5k up...level out again until you reach max cruise...rinse/repeat. I've tried it and it works better than a steady climb to 20k but...in the MAs who wants to spend 2 hours on a single bombing run...especially in Ju-88s?
AckAck and Krusty would have better information but I remember reading somewhere that the Ju-88s would run their missions at under 20k and they had a lot of fighter support...of course they lost a lot to enemy fighters too...not as much as the He-111s, but still significant numbers. Considering the multi-purpose roll the 88s had, it wouldn't surprise me if 10k was standard operating alt after the BoB.