Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Seadog36 on May 08, 2010, 07:11:56 PM
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Should be perked in EW! Was in Europe late 1942, saw combat over France March 10th '43 and by mid '43 in Italy and the Pacific with the 12th and 348th respectively. The Jug is a contemporary of the Spit IX which first saw action in late '42, and is also perked in EW. Current Skins for the D11 represent C1 through D23 models anyway. Should be easy to do. Can perk D-25s in MW to represent D15s-23s which had pylons for ords and DTanks:salute
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+1 :aok
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Spit IX first saw combat in Mid-1942. P-47D-11 didn't arrive until 1943.
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Spit IX first saw combat in Mid-1942. P-47D-11 didn't arrive until 1943.
beat me to it. the p=47D was in production in 42 and ready to go, but not put into service till 43
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Ok what about the D25? can it be in mid?
or could we change the dates for early/ mid war?
mid has some population, but early is a ghost town as far as I can tell!
not Dissing on the people in Early war tho, everyone flies somewhere for a reason, and I sure don't want to tell anyone else how to spend there $15!!! :bolt:
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P-47D-25 is from 1944 and the cutoff point for Mid-War and Late-War seems to be Dec. 31, 1943. If the time were changed to get the P-47D-25 in, you would also be getting things like the Spitfire Mk XIV and perhaps Spitfire Mk XVI as well.
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Mid-1942 is early war? :confused:
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Mid-1942 is early war? :confused:
For the United States, yes.
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P-47D-25 is from 1944 and the cutoff point for Mid-War and Late-War seems to be Dec. 31, 1943. If the time were changed to get the P-47D-25 in, you would also be getting things like the Spitfire Mk XIV and perhaps Spitfire Mk XVI as well.
Spit XVI, that will be a vary high perk AC in mid war.
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Spit XVI, that will be a vary high perk AC in mid war.
It shouldn't be in Mid-War at any price, that is my point. Moving the goal posts to get the P-47D-25 would have other consequences. People need to just settle for no P-47 in Early-War and just the P-47D-11 in Mid-War. Just the way it is.
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It shouldn't be in Mid-War at any price, that is my point. Moving the goal posts to get the P-47D-25 would have other consequences. People need to just settle for no P-47 in Early-War and just the P-47D-11 in Mid-War. Just the way it is.
I really do not mid how it is set up. The only question i did asked a while back is how dose HT determent the time line from ER to LW, before U.S in the war or after.
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Well, the Spitfire Mk IX is in there and that entered service in June of 1942, so it is clearly after the US entry. The Fw190A-5 is in there too, which is a 1943 fighter, but I think it is subbing for earlier Fw190s.
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Well, the Spitfire Mk IX is in there and that entered service in June of 1942, so it is clearly after the US entry. The Fw190A-5 is in there too, which is a 1943 fighter, but I think it is subbing for earlier Fw190s.
Well if you can sub one plane for another???? :O
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That is my point exactly~ The F6F for example is a -5 model which didn't appear until June 44 and it is unperked w HVAR rockets.
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Well if you can sub one plane for another???? :O
What would you be subbing it for though? The P-47 doesn't belong in Early War.
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D-11s are supposed to represent C-1 through D-23 model Jugs. D-15s onward had pylons for ords and drops which would suggest the need for a D-25 capable 47 in mid. C model 47s were delivered to England in late '42 and first saw action in March '43 prior to FW 190A-5 models seeing service suggesting that the D-11 would be appropriate in early war. The point is, because AH takes liberties which are not completely historical in delineating Early Mid and Late because of resource constraints, as you pointed out yourself with 190A-5s~update the arenas and give the customer what they want, which is a more dynamic early and mid. Small potatoes compared to the development of the WWI arena.(http://[IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/razrbk1.jpg)
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The Fw190A-5 is standing in for earlier Fw190s that saw combat in 1941 and 1942. There is little sense in have the Merlin 61 Spitfire Mk IX, an emergency lash up to counter the Fw190, in Early War without the Fw190 itself.
Per your own text, the P-47 doesn't enter combat until March of 1943, after the period represented by Early War. Unlike the Fw190 there is nothing for the P-47 to be subbed in for in the Early War period as there were no P-47s of any kind in combat at that time.
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What would you be subbing it for though? The P-47 doesn't belong in Early War.
not really talking about early war,, at least I wasn't, just wanted another jug in mid!
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You misquote me, it was "in service in England" with the 4th FG in late '42 and later the 56th FG, around the same time that the earliest model F6F, the -3 was delivered incidentally. First combat contact for the P-47 was in March '43. See the below statistics:
Model Ser.Del #Built
P-47B Mar-42 170
P-47C Sep-42 60
P-47D1-24 Feb-43 6,300
P-47D 25 Sep-43 6,290 also pre '44 which would put it in MW
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You misquote me, it was "in service in England" with the 4th FG in late '42 and later the 56th FG, around the same time that the earliest model F6F, the -3 was delivered incidentally. First combat contact for the P-47 was in March '43. See the below statistics:
Model Ser.Del #Built
P-47B Mar-42 170
P-47C Sep-42 60
P-47D1-24 Feb-43 6,300
P-47D 25 Sep-43 6,290 also pre '44 which would put it in MW
I believe those are production dates, not service dates. We go by service dates.
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I looked it up once... If I recall squads started forming [perhaps a poor word, "getting ready?"] and such in December '42, but didn't get organized and operational and in europe until at least Feb/Mar '43.
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I looked it up once... If I recall squads started forming [perhaps a poor word, "getting ready?"] and such in December '42, but didn't get organized and operational and in europe until at least Feb/Mar '43.
The 4th FG was flying Spitfires when it was initially formed from the British Eagle Squadrons.
From: FourthFighterGroup.com (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/resource/tidbits.html)
January 17, 1943 - The Fourth begins training on the P-47 Thunderbolt.
wrongway
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There you have it then, a proper P-47 fan should be flying Spitfire Mk Vs in Early War.
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The 4th FG was flying Spitfires when it was initially formed from the British Eagle Squadrons.
January 17, 1943 - The Fourth begins training on the P-47 Thunderbolt.
Begins training, not necessarily "flew missions" hehehe
But that's a good point: fly a spitfire in EWA! Pretend you're still waiting for those jugs to come in! :t
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By the end of 1942, most of the troubles with the P-47 had been worked out, the American war machine was coming on line, and P-47Cs were sent to England for combat operations. The 56th FG was sent overseas to join the Eighth Air Force, whose 4th and 78th Fighter Groups were equipped with the Thunderbolt as well.
The P-47's first combat mission was on 10 March 1943, when the 4th FG took their aircraft on a fighter sweep over France, which was a fiasco due to radio malfunctions. The P-47s were all refitted with British radios, and missions resumed on 8 April 1943. The P-47 first mixed it up with the Luftwaffe on 15 April, with Major Don Blakeslee of the 4th FG scoring the Thunderbolt's first kill, shooting down an FW-190. On 17 August 1943, the P-47 performed its first escort mission, when it guarded a B-17 force on the first leg of a raid on Schweinfurt, Germany.
December 28, 1943 - The 4th was finally up to its full strength of 75 Thunderbolts. The 56th FG was operating with 108 and the 78th had been at that strength since November 5th. On December 26th, the 56th had also received 21 of the new paddle-bladed props which vastly improved the P-47's performance.
The "P-47D-16", "P-47D-20", "P-47D-22", and "P-47D-23" were similar to the P-47D-15, adding minor improvements in fuel system, engine subsystems, a jettisonable canopy, bulletproof windshield, and so on. The 3.71 meter (12 foot 2 inch) Curtiss propeller was replaced by new and bigger propellers, the Long Island plant moving to a Hamilton Standard propeller with a diameter of 4.01 meters (13 feet 1-7/8 inches), and the Evansville plant moving to a new Curtiss propeller with a diameter of 3.96 meters (13 feet). The new propeller further boosted the climb rate, and Luftwaffe pilots now found they couldn't get away from the P-47 by climbing.
The only reason I would like the change would be for the bigger prop!
It seems a shame to me that we have all those jugs yet the Paddle prop is not represented in the place it is needed the most and the "25" is not hardly used were it is available, it might not be too much trouble to refit the d-11 with the big prop tho and call it the d-15, a simple fix, instead of a substitution like the Fw190A-5 is in there too, which is a 1943 fighter, but I think it is subbing for earlier Fw190s.
but if you can sub a late model plane for the Germans,why not for the jug?
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What would you be subbing the P-47 for? A P-36 Peashooter? :lol There isn't anything to sub it for. You're own post states that no P-47 of any kind saw operations until 10 March, 1943 and even then it was almost a month before the second operation. 1943 means Mid-War. Sorry, but no P-47 of any kind should be in Early-War.
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What would you be subbing the P-47 for? A P-36 Peashooter? :lol There isn't anything to sub it for. You're own post states that no P-47 of any kind saw operations until 10 March, 1943 and even then it was almost a month before the second operation. 1943 means Mid-War. Sorry, but no P-47 of any kind should be in Early-War.
you keep thinking I am wanting it in early war! I want a paddle prop jug in mid war! that is all!!the d-25 could be used for this!
I would have liked to see the d-11 in early war but I understand it does not meet the criteria as it is now.
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They received them on Dec. 26th, 5 days before we enter Late War. Did they even fly a single operation during 1943 with them?
No, I don't think that is a reasonable request you are making. If somebody was asking for the Fw190A-5 in early war when we had an Fw190A-2 already there, I'd react the same.
But we don't have an Fw190A-2 in Early-War while we do have a P-47D-11 in Mid-War. Your request is not symmetrical.
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They received them on Dec. 26th, 5 days before we enter Late War. Did they even fly a single operation during 1943 with them?
No, I don't think that is a reasonable request you are making. If somebody was asking for the Fw190A-5 in early war when we had an Fw190A-2 already there, I'd react the same.
But we don't have an Fw190A-2 in Early-War while we do have a P-47D-11 in Mid-War. Your request is not symmetrical.
but it does meet the criteria, if only by a few days.
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but it does meet the criteria, if only by a few days.
Only if it saw combat. Arriving in crates doesn't meet the criteria. When did the paddle bladded P-47s fly their first combat op?
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+1
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+1
You want F4U-1s, Spitfire Mk VIIIs and Mosquito Mk VIs in Early-War too? That is what you are asking for.
At that point, why even have an Early-War?
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D-22 were the first production models to get the large props, 850 D-22-REs were built with a 13-ft Hamilton Standard paddle-blade propeller and A-23 turbosupercharger regulator. The D-23-RA (889 built) had a Curtiss Electric 13-ft paddle-blade propeller. These props were retrofitted to earlier types in the field.
And for a few perkies you can pretend that you are flying a Fw 190A-5 in EW that wasn't introduced until April 1943, why shouldn’t that be the case for P-47s.
Seriously, there is so much pretending in all these arenas. No real axis or allies with spits, f4us and mosquitoes blowing dive bombing daylight lancs, 17s and 24s out of the sky. Zeeks and f4f taking off from the same carrier to de-ack fields to vulch hurries, 190s and Finnish skinned super brewsters. All so 10 cartoon troops can blow up a map room capture a base and reset all the ack instantly. And for some reason Axis v Allies is perpetually vacant. If it will make early and mid more fun, why not shift the alleged time frame a few months. This is a fantasy world very very loosely based on a world war. Get over any real historical pretexts in these arenas.
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And for a few perkies you can pretend that you are flying a Fw 190A-5 in EW that wasn't introduced until April 1943, why shouldn’t that be the case for P-47s.
Why not an La-7? Or an Me262?
Because none of those types were there. At all.
Just like the P-47.
Grab your Spitfire Mk V and play fresh American squadron with your reverse lend-lease fighters waiting for modern American fighters to become available.
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And neither was the FW 190A-5, so keep pretending.
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And neither was the FW 190A-5, so keep pretending.
Are you daft?
The point is that the Fw190A-5, which has performance not that dissimilar to earlier Fw190s, is standing in for those earlier Fw190s. Would it be better if the Fw190A-2 was in the game? Of course. Seeing as it is not, however, and the Fw190 was a significant fighter in the early war period it makes sense to use the earliest Fw190 we have to stand in for it, the Fw190A-5. Obviously if the earliest Fw190 we had was the Fw190D-9 that would not be a suitable stand in as the performance difference is too great, but that is not the case that we have in AH.
This is entirely different than what you are asking, which is basically to put a later aircraft into an arena because the version of that aircraft that is already there and is appropriate to the time setting isn't good enough for you.
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Are you daft?
The point is that the Fw190A-5, which has performance not that dissimilar to earlier Fw190s, is standing in for those earlier Fw190s. Would it be better if the Fw190A-2 was in the game? Of course. Seeing as it is not, however, and the Fw190 was a significant fighter in the early war period it makes sense to use the earliest Fw190 we have to stand in for it, the Fw190A-5. Obviously if the earliest Fw190 we had was the Fw190D-9 that would not be a suitable stand in as the performance difference is too great, but that is not the case that we have in AH.
This is entirely different than what you are asking, which is basically to put a later aircraft into an arena because the version of that aircraft that is already there and is appropriate to the time setting isn't good enough for you.
Wow, you have a lot of nerve. Not only are you rude and insulting, but apparently you are not too bright. Very simple concept; I’ll dumb it down for you; maybe you are more mathematical than linguistic:
if FW 190A-1 can = FW 190A-5 then P-47C can= P-47d11
There is a reason why the 190 A-5 is perked in EW. It also did not exist in that time frame and earlier versions were rare, see the correlation? I'm not asking it to substitute for anything but an earlier version of itself. Fact: The P-47C and early Ds did exist and were being flown by 56th FG pilots experienced with the plane in the EW time frame even if only by a few days. Why give a bias to the FW 190? I believe it would make EW better and attract more players to it if it were included. Jump up and down, that won't change it.
Furthermore: In regards to paddle bladed props in D-11s. Gabreski (the ETOs top US ace and Jug pilot) states in his book "Gabby" pg. 139 that he had automatic water injection and paddle props retro fitted to his new "D-11" in December 1943. "I noticed a little more vibration with the paddles, but what an improvement in performance, especially in the climb! Previously, we found the fastest way to gain altitude was todive and zoom, and the German pilots were well aware of that. Now we could pull the P-47's nose up and keep on going after them". Robert S. Johnson concurs in his auto biography Thunderbolt.
Like WWhiskey said, give us the D-25 or remodel the D-11 for MW. Again, it meets the criteria and would enrich the game and also put the bird back in it's place as an air superiority fighter that gave us our top ETO aces and FGs with the most enemy aircraft destroyed by the end of the war, especially in the MW period where it is eclipsed by misplaced or over modeled LW birds.
This IS a public forum "mate", and you are just another person with an opinion.
This is my thread in the “Wishlist”, if you don’t like it or agree that’s too bad, I don’t need your approval to express my desires here. I appreciate a good debate, but at least be civil.
So there YOU have it: a proper P-47 fan flying P-47C and Ds in Europe, Asia and the Pacific to save the free world, not to be found flying a spit anytime soon. :neener:
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First off, the P47D-11 could be used as a substitute for the C-5. The differences between the two types are not that severe. (radio antennae, added armor for the pilot...not that it shows up in game ;) )
However, even the C would be limited to Mid War use as the first ever P-47 combat mission took place 10 March 1943, well outside of the scope of the Early War Arena.
The biggest problem the P-47 D-11 faces in Aces High is the fact that it's modeled on factory spec, rather then most representative. D-11's were refitted with paddle blade props, and were throwing down boost levels far over spec with modified wastegates. I understand, though- a line has to be drawn, and even though I'm a huge Jugdweeb I do think it's better for the game. Once you start going down that road it's a VERY slippery slope.
As it is, it is a very capable airframe, and can survive quite handily in the Late war, and challenge anything for dominance in the MW.
Which brings us to the D-25. That airframe has no business in the Midwar at all. By the time it served operationally, it was well past the representative dates we consider for Midwar. Unless you want to create a nice little arena dubbed "earlylatewar". The performance advantages over the D-11 aren't that much, but the payload is what really drives the point home. The D-25 really represents the shift from the P-47 going from being a Fighter purebred to it's newfound niche of ground attack in 1944.
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First off, the P47D-11 could be used as a substitute for the C-5. The differences between the two types are not that severe. (radio antennae, added armor for the pilot...not that it shows up in game ;) )
However, even the C would be limited to Mid War use as the first ever P-47 combat mission took place 10 March 1943, well outside of the scope of the Early War Arena.
The biggest problem the P-47 D-11 faces in Aces High is the fact that it's modeled on factory spec, rather then most representative. D-11's were refitted with paddle blade props, and were throwing down boost levels far over spec with modified wastegates. I understand, though- a line has to be drawn, and even though I'm a huge Jugdweeb I do think it's better for the game. Once you start going down that road it's a VERY slippery slope.
As it is, it is a very capable airframe, and can survive quite handily in the Late war, and challenge anything for dominance in the MW.
Which brings us to the D-25. That airframe has no business in the Midwar at all. By the time it served operationally, it was well past the representative dates we consider for Midwar. Unless you want to create a nice little arena dubbed "earlylatewar". The performance advantages over the D-11 aren't that much, but the payload is what really drives the point home. The D-25 really represents the shift from the P-47 going from being a Fighter purebred to it's newfound niche of ground attack in 1944.
Hmmm... earlylatewar, earlierearlywar, latermidwar...slippery indeed Rebel. How do we get a D-23 in this game? I'm trying to drum up some support from other Jugdweebs and potential Jugdweebs for a HTC palatable solution that has a Hun Hunter, Fiery Ginger, Bonnie and a bare metal checkertail skin in it. Any suggestions? With a D-25, D-40, N and M all in LW, its a tough sell. Thanks for the feedback :salute
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Hmmm... earlylatewar, earlierearlywar, latermidwar...slippery indeed Rebel. How do we get a D-23 in this game? I'm trying to drum up some support from other Jugdweebs and potential Jugdweebs for a HTC palatable solution that has a Hun Hunter, Fiery Ginger, Bonnie and a bare metal checkertail skin in it.
Well the D-23 was the last razorback before they went to bubble tops. The performance differences would be minimal between it and the D-25. It'd just be another razorback, but with more Jabo capability. In all honesty, it'd be a redundant addition. It's basically a Razorback D-25. That's it.
Any suggestions? With a D-25, D-40, N and M all in LW, its a tough sell. Thanks for the feedback :salute
Honestly, I was SHOCKED when they threw in the M. I'd pulled for it for years, and it really is everything that we really needed, but with that goes the need for any future Jugs.
Now would it be nice to see a D15 or a D23? Of course- they're the utimate razorback jugs. But there are things that are needed much much more.
The HE111 for instance.
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always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:
EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945
:headscratch:
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always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:
EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945
:headscratch:
Same here.
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Seadog,
The Fw190 is perked in early war due to performance, not any of the stuff you listed.
Even substituting the P-47D-11 for the P-47C-5 you end up with the P-47 in.....Mid-War, exactly where it is. I don't know why it is so hard for you to grasp that.
As far as the paddle bladed props, show some combat in 1943.
RTHolmes,
It is pretty clear that Mid-War extends at least to Dec. 1943 due to the inclusion of the P-51B.
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always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:
EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945
:headscratch:
So that is how it is split, I was under the impression that the cutoff was the first of the year 1943! Well that really messes up my argument in that case. The D-11 barely makes MW. That kind of crushes the dream of the uber razorback pretty well.
Karnak, I was looking for the D-11 to represent the C-5 in EW and the D-25 to join the D-11 in MW representing a D-15 or later variant. Under the above cutoff dates it really is too much of a stretch. I am even more surprised to see the Spit 9 and FW190 at all, even perked with a cut off of Sept '41 considering the Spit 9 debuted Sept '42 and the 190 was barely a prototype in '41. This is really baffling to me.
Under I think for the weight penalty of the "Indestructable Jug" it still is a little under modeled for the scant pings that take a wing off or result in a pw. Wish we could hijack the the D-25 give it some personality and make it a razorback D-24/23. I'll be SHOCKED if I actually see it too.
I fully agree we need the HE 111.
D-11 it is for now, and I'll keep working on skins in the meantime. I wonder how I can find out what is in the submission lineup so I don't replicate anything.
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Seadog,
No worries. I will note that those dates are not the cutoffs. So far as I can tell, Early War extends to at least mid-1942 due to the Spitfire Mk IX. It may extend to the end of 1942, I am not sure. Mid-War extends from the Early-War through at least Dec. of 1943 per the inclusion of the P-51B. Late-War covers the rest.
I would much rather see the Fw190A-2, A-3 or A-4 (I think A-4 saw service in 1942) added and used in Early-War and then the Fw190A-5 limited to Mid and Late war personally.
The only way we have to know the dates is to look at the service dates of the aircraft in those arenas. The Fw190A-5 stands out as an exception as there would be all sorts of other aircraft in Early-War that are not there if its service dates were within Early-War.
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Paddle prop is utterly useless down low, where most fights happen
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Paddle prop is utterly useless down low, where most fights happen
I've been keeping the D-11 at the minimum of 225-230 in the corners (even down low I will drop flaps and get slow in 1 vs 1's). I'm liking this ride and will continue to use it.
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Paddle prop is utterly useless down low, where most fights happen
I love to use it up high!!! i don't get to all that much, but I like to when I can!!
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I've been keeping the D-11 at the minimum of 225-230 in the corners (even down low I will drop flaps and get slow in 1 vs 1's). I'm liking this ride and will continue to use it.
That's funny, as soon as I get a little slow my 1v1 turns into a conga line of fast 5v1 cons. :bolt: :bolt: