P-47d11 in EARLY WAR

[ACE]

+1

[Karnak]

+1

You want F4U-1s, Spitfire Mk VIIIs and Mosquito Mk VIs in Early-War too?  That is what you are asking for.

At that point, why even have an Early-War?

[Seadog36]

D-22 were the first production models to get the  large props, 850 D-22-REs were built with a 13-ft Hamilton Standard paddle-blade propeller and A-23 turbosupercharger regulator. The D-23-RA (889 built) had a Curtiss Electric 13-ft paddle-blade propeller. These props were retrofitted to earlier types in the field.

And for a few perkies you can pretend that you are flying a Fw 190A-5 in EW that wasn't introduced until April 1943, why shouldn’t that be the case for P-47s.

Seriously, there is so much pretending in all these arenas. No real axis or allies with spits, f4us and mosquitoes blowing dive bombing daylight lancs, 17s and 24s out of the sky. Zeeks and f4f taking off from the same carrier to de-ack fields to vulch hurries, 190s and Finnish skinned super brewsters. All so 10 cartoon troops can blow up a map room capture a base and reset all the ack instantly. And for some reason Axis v Allies is perpetually vacant. If it will make early and mid more fun, why not shift the alleged time frame a few months. This is a fantasy world very very loosely based on a world war. Get over any real historical pretexts in these arenas.

[Karnak]

And for a few perkies you can pretend that you are flying a Fw 190A-5 in EW that wasn't introduced until April 1943, why shouldn’t that be the case for P-47s.

Why not an La-7?  Or an Me262?

Because none of those types were there.  At all.

Just like the P-47.

Grab your Spitfire Mk V and play fresh American squadron with your reverse lend-lease fighters waiting for modern American fighters to become available.

[Seadog36]

And neither was the FW 190A-5, so keep pretending.

[Karnak]

And neither was the FW 190A-5, so keep pretending.

Are you daft?

The point is that the Fw190A-5, which has performance not that dissimilar to earlier Fw190s, is standing in for those earlier Fw190s.  Would it be better if the Fw190A-2 was in the game?  Of course.  Seeing as it is not, however, and the Fw190 was a significant fighter in the early war period it makes sense to use the earliest Fw190 we have to stand in for it, the Fw190A-5.  Obviously if the earliest Fw190 we had was the Fw190D-9 that would not be a suitable stand in as the performance difference is too great, but that is not the case that we have in AH.

This is entirely different than what you are asking, which is basically to put a later aircraft into an arena because the version of that aircraft that is already there and is appropriate to the time setting isn't good enough for you.

[Seadog36]

Are you daft?

The point is that the Fw190A-5, which has performance not that dissimilar to earlier Fw190s, is standing in for those earlier Fw190s.  Would it be better if the Fw190A-2 was in the game?  Of course.  Seeing as it is not, however, and the Fw190 was a significant fighter in the early war period it makes sense to use the earliest Fw190 we have to stand in for it, the Fw190A-5.  Obviously if the earliest Fw190 we had was the Fw190D-9 that would not be a suitable stand in as the performance difference is too great, but that is not the case that we have in AH.

This is entirely different than what you are asking, which is basically to put a later aircraft into an arena because the version of that aircraft that is already there and is appropriate to the time setting isn't good enough for you.

Wow, you have a lot of nerve. Not only are you rude and insulting, but apparently you are not too bright. Very simple concept; I’ll dumb it down for you; maybe you are more mathematical than linguistic:  

if FW 190A-1 can = FW 190A-5    then P-47C can= P-47d11

There is a reason why the 190 A-5 is perked in EW. It also did not exist in that time frame and earlier versions were rare, see the correlation? I'm not asking it to substitute for anything but an earlier version of itself. Fact: The P-47C and early Ds did exist and were being flown by 56th FG pilots experienced with the plane in the EW time frame even if only by a few days. Why give a bias to the FW 190? I believe it would make EW better and attract more players to it if it were included. Jump up and down, that won't change it.

Furthermore: In regards to paddle bladed props in D-11s. Gabreski (the ETOs top US ace and Jug pilot) states in his book "Gabby" pg. 139 that he had automatic water injection and paddle props retro fitted to his new "D-11" in December 1943. "I noticed a little more vibration with the paddles, but what an improvement in performance, especially in the climb! Previously, we found the fastest way to gain altitude was todive and zoom, and the German pilots were well aware of that. Now we could pull the P-47's nose up and keep on going after them". Robert S. Johnson concurs in his auto biography Thunderbolt.

Like WWhiskey said, give us the D-25 or remodel the D-11 for MW. Again, it meets the criteria and would enrich the game and also put the bird back in it's place as an air superiority fighter that gave us our top ETO aces and FGs with the most enemy aircraft destroyed by the end of the war, especially in the MW period where it is eclipsed by misplaced or over modeled LW birds.

This IS a public forum "mate", and you are just another person with an opinion. 

This is my thread in the “Wishlist”, if you don’t like it or agree that’s too bad, I don’t need your approval to express my desires here.  I appreciate a good debate, but at least be civil.

So there YOU have it: a proper P-47 fan flying P-47C and Ds in Europe, Asia and the Pacific to save the free world, not to be found flying a spit anytime soon.

[Rebel]

First off, the P47D-11 could be used as a substitute for the C-5.  The differences between the two types are not that severe.  (radio antennae, added armor for the pilot...not that it shows up in game )

However, even the C would be limited to Mid War use as the first ever P-47 combat mission took place 10 March 1943, well outside of the scope of the Early War Arena. 

The biggest problem the P-47 D-11 faces in Aces High is the fact that it's modeled on factory spec, rather then most representative.  D-11's were refitted with paddle blade props, and were throwing down boost levels far over spec with modified wastegates.  I understand, though- a line has to be drawn, and even though I'm a huge Jugdweeb I do think it's better for the game. Once you start going down that road it's a VERY slippery slope.

As it is, it is a very capable airframe, and can survive quite handily in the Late war, and challenge anything for dominance in the MW. 

Which brings us to the D-25.  That airframe has no business in the Midwar at all.  By the time it served operationally, it was well past the representative dates we consider for Midwar.   Unless you want to create a nice little arena dubbed "earlylatewar".    The performance advantages over the D-11 aren't that much, but the payload is what really drives the point home.  The D-25 really represents the shift from the P-47 going from being a Fighter purebred to it's newfound niche of ground attack in 1944.

[Seadog36]

First off, the P47D-11 could be used as a substitute for the C-5.  The differences between the two types are not that severe.  (radio antennae, added armor for the pilot...not that it shows up in game )

However, even the C would be limited to Mid War use as the first ever P-47 combat mission took place 10 March 1943, well outside of the scope of the Early War Arena. 

The biggest problem the P-47 D-11 faces in Aces High is the fact that it's modeled on factory spec, rather then most representative.  D-11's were refitted with paddle blade props, and were throwing down boost levels far over spec with modified wastegates.  I understand, though- a line has to be drawn, and even though I'm a huge Jugdweeb I do think it's better for the game. Once you start going down that road it's a VERY slippery slope.

As it is, it is a very capable airframe, and can survive quite handily in the Late war, and challenge anything for dominance in the MW. 

Which brings us to the D-25.  That airframe has no business in the Midwar at all.  By the time it served operationally, it was well past the representative dates we consider for Midwar.   Unless you want to create a nice little arena dubbed "earlylatewar".    The performance advantages over the D-11 aren't that much, but the payload is what really drives the point home.  The D-25 really represents the shift from the P-47 going from being a Fighter purebred to it's newfound niche of ground attack in 1944.

Hmmm... earlylatewar, earlierearlywar, latermidwar...slippery indeed Rebel. How do we get a D-23 in this game? I'm trying to drum up some support from other Jugdweebs and potential Jugdweebs for a HTC palatable solution that has a Hun Hunter, Fiery Ginger, Bonnie and a bare metal checkertail skin in it. Any suggestions? With a D-25, D-40, N and M all in LW, its a tough sell. Thanks for the feedback

[Rebel]

Hmmm... earlylatewar, earlierearlywar, latermidwar...slippery indeed Rebel. How do we get a D-23 in this game? I'm trying to drum up some support from other Jugdweebs and potential Jugdweebs for a HTC palatable solution that has a Hun Hunter, Fiery Ginger, Bonnie and a bare metal checkertail skin in it.

Well the D-23 was the last razorback before they went to bubble tops.  The performance differences would be minimal between it and the D-25.  It'd just be another razorback, but with more Jabo capability.  In all honesty, it'd be a redundant addition.  It's basically a Razorback D-25.  That's it. 

 

Any suggestions? With a D-25, D-40, N and M all in LW, its a tough sell. Thanks for the feedback

Honestly, I was SHOCKED when they threw in the M.  I'd pulled for it for years, and it really is everything that we really needed, but with that goes the need for any future Jugs. 

Now would it be nice to see a D15 or a D23?  Of course- they're the utimate razorback jugs.  But there are things that are needed much much more.

The HE111 for instance.

[RTHolmes]

always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:

EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945

 

[Masherbrum]

always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:

EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945

 

Same here.

[Karnak]

Seadog,

The Fw190 is perked in early war due to performance, not any of the stuff you listed.

Even substituting the P-47D-11 for the P-47C-5 you end up with the P-47 in.....Mid-War, exactly where it is.  I don't know why it is so hard for you to grasp that.

As far as the paddle bladed props, show some combat in 1943.


RTHolmes,

It is pretty clear that Mid-War extends at least to Dec. 1943 due to the inclusion of the P-51B.

[Seadog36]

always wondered what limits AH sets for EW, MW and LW. I always assumed since WWII lasted 6yrs and 1 day the 6yrs were split equally:

EW: Sept 1939 - Sept 1941
MW: Sept 1941 - Sept 1943
LW: Sept 1943 - Sept 1945

 

So that is how it is split, I was under the impression that the cutoff was the first of the year 1943! Well that really messes up my argument in that case. The D-11 barely makes MW. That kind of crushes the dream of the uber razorback pretty well.

Karnak, I was looking for the D-11 to represent the C-5 in EW and the D-25 to join the D-11 in MW representing a D-15 or later variant. Under the above cutoff dates it really is too much of a stretch. I am even more surprised to see the Spit 9 and FW190 at all, even perked with a cut off of Sept '41 considering the Spit 9 debuted Sept '42 and the 190 was barely a prototype in '41. This is really baffling to me.

Under I think for the weight penalty of the "Indestructable Jug" it still is a little under modeled for the scant pings that take a wing off or result in a pw. Wish we could hijack the the D-25 give it some personality and make it a razorback D-24/23. I'll be SHOCKED if I actually see it too.

I fully agree we need the HE 111.

D-11 it is for now, and I'll keep working on skins in the meantime. I wonder how I can find out what is in the submission lineup so I don't replicate anything.

[Karnak]

Seadog,

No worries.  I will note that those dates are not the cutoffs.  So far as I can tell, Early War extends to at least mid-1942 due to the Spitfire Mk IX.  It may extend to the end of 1942, I am not sure.  Mid-War extends from the Early-War through at least Dec. of 1943 per the inclusion of the P-51B.  Late-War covers the rest.

I would much rather see the Fw190A-2, A-3 or A-4 (I think A-4 saw service in 1942) added and used in Early-War and then the Fw190A-5 limited to Mid and Late war personally.

The only way we have to know the dates is to look at the service dates of the aircraft in those arenas.  The Fw190A-5 stands out as an exception as there would be all sorts of other aircraft in Early-War that are not there if its service dates were within Early-War.