Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: soda72 on May 14, 2010, 08:22:32 AM
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With the Battle of Britain won and the threat of Nazi invasion halted, by early 1941 the Royal Air Force High Command issued orders to take the fight back across the Channel against Adolf Hitler’s occupying forces in Northern Europe. This was termed Leaning into France. By March, Air Chief Marshal William Sholto-Douglas had replaced Sir Hugh Dowding as Air Officer Commander of Fighter Command and had appointed Wing Leaders at each fighter station in 11 Group to lead offensive operations over France.The wings normally consisted of three squadrons of Spitfires, Hurricanes or mixed formations. The new fighter sweeps it was hoped would entice the German Air Force up to fight, which in many cases it did. Another role for which the wings were used was to provide escort cover for light-bomber incursions to attack German installations and airfields. By late May and early June, the number of fighter sweeps had increased as the fine spring weather improved and daily combat with the Luftwaffe raged in the skies along the Channel Front. The RAF operations were given the following code names.
Ramrod- Attack by bombers or fighter-bombers escorted by fighters.
Rodeo- Fighter sweep over enemy territory with no bombers.
Rhubarb- Small scale attack by fighters using cloud cover and suprise, with the object of destroying enemy aircraft in the air and/or striking at ground targets.
Circus- Attack by a small force of bombers with powerful fighter escort, intended to lure enemy fighters in the air so they could be engaged by RAF fighters.
During 1941 and 1942 the RAF possessed only small numbers of light and medium bombers suitable for daytime operations. Initially operations had the appearance of a mini Battle of Britain in reverse with newer versions of the Spitfire, the MKV and Hurricane MkIIs escorting Boston, Mitchell, and Blenheim bombers against targets defended by the Luftwaffe in their updated BF-109F. In the fall of 1941 the RAF received a nasty surprise in the form of of Kurt Tank's new fighter the FW-190 Wurger or Butcher Bird. The new radial engined fighter was superior to both the Hurricane IIs and Spitfire MkVs. Jagdgeschwader 2 and Jagdgeschwader 26 bore the brunt of the defence of the Channel Coast. Both units fielded FW-190As along with Bf-109Fs and the G2 models that were introduced in the summer of 1942. The Geshwaders battled hard against the RAF intruders. Until the introduction Spitfire MK IX in September 1942 RAF Fighter Command's pilots were hard pressed to deal with the 190s and 109s flown by the seasoned jagdfliegers stationed in France.
Setup
RAF:
Spitfire MkV
Spitfire Mk IX @ A-10 only
Hurri IIC
Hurri IID
Boston
B-25C
GVs
M-16
Jeep
Luftwaffe:
BF-109F4
BF-109G2
FW-190A5* sub for versions A1 and 2
ME-110C-4B
JU-88
GVs
SDKFZ-251
Ostwind
MAP- BOB09
RAF- Bishops
Bases:
A6 A7 A10 A11 A12 A13 A14 A15 A16
V116 V117 V118 V119 V120
P105 P106
Luftwaffe-Knights
Bases:
A36 A44 A45 A46 A47 A48 A49 A50 A60
AvA Standard Settings
Enemy Icons: Off
Hanger DT's: 60 mins
AAA: .25
Sector/Tower Dar: 1942 079200/105600
Dar NOE Height: 500 +/- 250ft
Tower settings: full friendly, tower enemy, sector enemy
Troop Capture: 15 drunks
Morning: 0400
Evening: 2100
Visibility: 10 miles
Bombsight: hardcore
Hangar DT: 60 mins
AAA DT: 30 minutes
Towns DT: 60 mins
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:O
:x
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I just noticed something slightly odd...it's not a big deal...Spit V to Spit IX? Shouldn't there be a Spit VIII?
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The Spitfire Mk VIII didn't go operational until 1943 (due to production limitations), so the Mk IX filled the role of countering the FW190, being an easier conversion from the Mk V. Also the VIII was used primarily in the Med and Pac, when it went operational.
<S>
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Silly Brits...thanks for the info sir.
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daily combat with the Luftwaffe raged in the skies along the Channel Front.
Historical aside, the lack of numbers does not allow for fulfillment to use bombers as desgined. In fact, the set-up only allows for continued perpetuation of sparse 'furballing' week-to-week.
Also, because of the point in the war, does not allow for base capture. Will this week lead into the next progression of the next week? I doubt it.
Vehicles are moot, bombers are moot, this set up only allows for logical furballing. Which is an excuse to use 'history' to design a furball. No critical mass numbers to use bombers or fighters, and certainly no base captures (and yes GVs are useless).
No point in expending energy to design a point in history with no true point other than furballing. Might as well get rid of all elements other than fighters. And yes I really enjoyed the last two week setups because there was purpose other than furballing.
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If you're unhappy with the current setup design one to your liking and submit it to the AVA staff for possible use in the future.
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GoldenBB,
I would love to believe that "if we build it, they will come." I logged on today with 8 players logged on. We had a wonderful night sky, perfect for a nightime bomber run. What did I actually find? Two fighters dueling, a third joined in later. Five players either sat in the tower or were just afk. I made several announcements on 200 (btw all channels was not enabled) and not a single response. In a matter of several minutes the sun began to rise and the arena was empty again.
This is a 24 hour arena and unlike special events, not too many folks that attend, log in to fly to a target in bombers. I for one would love to see every aspect aside from the base capture, vulchfest available. If you have any thoughts on a possible setup that you believe will promote interest in the arena, I am available to help figure out the details.
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GoldenBB,
I would love to believe that "if we build it, they will come." I logged on today with 8 players logged on. We had a wonderful night sky, perfect for a nightime bomber run. What did I actually find? Two fighters dueling, a third joined in later. Five players either sat in the tower or were just afk. I made several announcements on 200 (btw all channels was not enabled) and not a single response. In a matter of several minutes the sun began to rise and the arena was empty again.
This is a 24 hour arena and unlike special events, not too many folks that attend, log in to fly to a target in bombers. I for one would love to see every aspect aside from the base capture, vulchfest available. If you have any thoughts on a possible setup that you believe will promote interest in the arena, I am available to help figure out the details.
what if some sort of voluntary FSO style set-up happened in which squads would choose a role such as fighter, bomber, GV and would team up together on one night and fight in a historical fashion
P.S. why did D-Day occur a week before the M4A3 76 came out? :cry :cry :cry
P.P.S. by the way, whenever i went to the D-Day invasion setup NO ONE was GVing on the Normandy coast, it was a furball over Calais only. Perfect example of what the voluntary FSO style would do.
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The real problem is numbers. The only base taking attempts I've seen for months are the guys trying to capture a base when the arena is empty. Once somebody logs on and gives them any kind of opposition they log off. As Chilli said I too would like to see all aspects of the game come into play. It would be healthier for the arena if there were contested base captures and legitimate targets for the bomber guys. Instead of empty arena commandos taking bases unopposed and the bomb and bail radar porkers. The addition of USRanger's map making skills into the mix will hopefully give us maps streamlined to enhance AVA play. 321Bar a voluntary night as you suggested has been brought up in other forms such as mission nights. You might touch base with Jimson, Gyrene, or Jaeger about promoting this idea more. Goldenbb I wasn't being sarcastic about writing a setup yourself. Give the staff a setup idea with vehicle list, arena settings, and a map . They are very good about giving player written setups a chance to run.
Also anybody that complains about the lack of base capture ability and bomber useage should be the very ones getting the ball rolling by setting the example and upping bombers or putting together a base capture when the arena is active. You cannot blame other people for not doing what you want them to do if you're not willing to do it yourself. If you want something to happen... Make it happen.
One thing I would like to point out. When I put this setup together there was no intention of ground warfare because of the historical era of the setup. However there is a viable reason for the use of bombers written into the scenario. Although the setup is geared towards the initial RAF offensive operations.The Spitfire Mk IX is available only at A-10. It is the one aircraft that can eliminate the domination of the setup by well flown FW-190s. The JU-88 was included to give the Luftwaffe a chance to minimize it's impact by keeping the fighter hangers down at the only base it's available. There is strategy in placed in the setup. I was thinking savy Luftwaffe guys would see this weakness in the RAF's planeset and do something to take advantage of it. Granted it's not a run the map and wIn t3H waRz type of setup but there's a built in purpose for Buff drivers to impact the week's game play.
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...Goldenbb I wasn't being sarcastic about writing a setup yourself. Give the staff a setup idea with vehicle list, arena settings, and a map . They are very good about giving player written setups a chance to run.
ok. this seems like a good idea. i'll try to do this on my free time :aok
The real problem is numbers. The only base taking attempts I've seen for months are the guys trying to capture a base when the arena is empty. Once somebody logs on and gives them any kind of opposition they log off. As Chilli said I too would like to see all aspects of the game come into play. It would be healthier for the arena if there were contested base captures and legitimate targets for the bomber guys. Instead of empty arena commandos taking bases unopposed and the bomb and bail radar porkers. The addition of USRanger's map making skills into the mix will hopefully give us maps streamlined to enhance AVA play... ...You might touch base with Jimson, Gyrene, or Jaeger about promoting this idea more.
Also anybody that complains about the lack of base capture ability and bomber useage should be the very ones getting the ball rolling by setting the example and upping bombers or putting together a base capture when the arena is active. You cannot blame other people for not doing what you want them to do if you're not willing to do it yourself. If you want something to happen... Make it happen.
Response to the first part: so basically we need more people on certain nights... simple idea on paper. Yay... what if the AvA staff throws a few messages to the LWMAs during the times that many AvA groups show up to promote the AvA Arena? if it works like it does for the SEAs we would have more and more AvA flyers for longer time periods. This would allow for more MA style combat with hopefully the chance to be historically accurate and leave a fair combat experience for the Arena... Then we could get the ball rolling
Second: Tried and failed to attempt this many times. and the feeling like some people will get angry at the base taking and porking happening in the AvA kinda makes people not do this
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Second: Tried and failed to attempt this many times. and the feeling like some people will get angry at the base taking and porking happening in the AvA kinda makes people not do this
In the past there was a problem of people porking the arena during off hours. It was usually one or two guys during the day time while nobody else was on. Since there are no perk points to transfer to the rest of the game in the AVA this was always a mystery to me why people would do this. Many times it would cause the map having to be reset by a staffer. So yeah this kind of activity was frowned on. Anybody that takes a base,or bombs a target when the arena is active and people are fighting actions should never be frowned on. This isn't the same thing as empty arena porking. Seriously followup on your plans to make setups as well as organizing night where there is assigned activity for squads or individual sides. The guys I mwentioned earlier, Jimson Gyrene and Jaeger have a lot of interest in this and would be more than willing to assist you. If you want to bomb or take a base by all means do so. :aok
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boston III has been added...
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GoldenBB,
I would love to believe that "if we build it, they will come." I logged on today with 8 players logged on. We had a wonderful night sky, perfect for a nightime bomber run. What did I actually find? Two fighters dueling, a third joined in later. Five players either sat in the tower or were just afk. I made several announcements on 200 (btw all channels was not enabled) and not a single response. In a matter of several minutes the sun began to rise and the arena was empty again.
This is a 24 hour arena and unlike special events, not too many folks that attend, log in to fly to a target in bombers. I for one would love to see every aspect aside from the base capture, vulchfest available. If you have any thoughts on a possible setup that you believe will promote interest in the arena, I am available to help figure out the details.
Two scenarios ago, during the D-day invasion, I saw in a weekend at least a few folks were trying to bomb or jabo fields on both sides, did base captures on both sides. All because of CV LVTs or C47s.... Trying to push the lines forward and backward. That and teamwork successfully implemented arena.
WHen you remove the ability to capture via c47 across the pond, all other elements are pointless. LIke I said you might as well remove everything except the fighters. Because you cannot capture means no one wants to practice bombing of fields of you cannot capture fields. That is my point.
Put in the C47s, and some (like myself) will come back.
I have 5 years experience in the Warbirds WWII historical arena and know that bombing in of itself is not enough. You must give folks the ability to capture. That is the only way to make bombing worth it. The fighter jocks always come to shoot down the bombers or defend fields. That always breaks the cycle of mindless furballing. Please bring in the C47s.
As for 'porking', Dday terrain was hard by ourselves, I did take down ord and radar but someone always walked in to defend against. Running out of time to keep playing, I'd have to come back and attempt to recapture at a later point. It wasn't easy.
Porking you say? It's not that simple, it is a war of reducing the enemy ability to resupply their bases or defend, then as you wear down the enemy can you capture fields. Real war was a slow movement of enemy defeat which you might say 'porking' but is not. It is war. The D-day was a slow process and over many hours of play was almost able to push further south.
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GoldenBB,
The focus of the Arena has been to present a "somewhat" historical feel to the match-ups. This includes ground vehicles and bombers as well. Capturing bases is something that HTC put into the Main Arenas to channel a 3 country battle. That type of base capture will never work here for a number of reasons. First, there are only two countries. Second, if someone actually took enough bases it would not automatically reset the arena, and no one would be able to capture anything or for that matter do anything until a volunteer from the staff, came in and manually put all the settings in again.
If you do understand that base captures will be difficult and still want to make this your objective, you can. Folks are really trying to build a community here, so all types are needed.
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GoldenBB,
The focus of the Arena has been to present a "somewhat" historical feel to the match-ups. This includes ground vehicles and bombers as well. Capturing bases is something that HTC put into the Main Arenas to channel a 3 country battle. That type of base capture will never work here for a number of reasons. First, there are only two countries. Second, if someone actually took enough bases it would not automatically reset the arena, and no one would be able to capture anything or for that matter do anything until a volunteer from the staff, came in and manually put all the settings in again.
If you do understand that base captures will be difficult and still want to make this your objective, you can. Folks are really trying to build a community here, so all types are needed.
Sir,
As I previously stated, I have 5 years experience in a historical arena in Warbirds. 2 colors, 2 sides and base captures work. The current AvA setup makes it hard to capture, but is slowly doable (such as war). It brings together more people wanting more out of a historical sim (some like gv'ing, some jaboing, some bombing, all to advance the war). AvA should be about historical advances (and alternate reality). Not mindless furballing engagements.
Again, it is a waste of time to design bombers and gvs (that has troops), if there is no point in capturing bases for which there is water separating each enemy without c47s. Which then denegrates to a furball arena which again is the primary role of a 'dueling' arena and not the AvA arena. Your statement makes it one sided to favor fighter jocks and no one else. It is a waste of time for bombers to fly in manual calibration without the end-thrill of being able to capture a base.
Base capturing is completely doable since the arena creators frequently visit to reset it (I hope). And as I previously stated, each arena lasts a week, base captures are slow. So not many resets would be required at all.
The WWII warbirds arena equivalent constantly bring in the furballers, bombers, jabo'ers, tankers, and base takers because they know they are contributing toward the eventual base capture. This WWII arena achieves camraderie, coordination, intense battles for at least 4 hours a night during Mondays and Thursday and approximately 15-30 folks each week. More than can be said for the AvA arena.
It is doable... and would bring more folks to the AvA which is currently a silent arena of less than 10 people, and if lucky 5 people on average.
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GoldenBB,
The focus of the Arena has been to present a "somewhat" historical feel to the match-ups. This includes ground vehicles and bombers as well. Capturing bases is something that HTC put into the Main Arenas to channel a 3 country battle. That type of base capture will never work here for a number of reasons. First, there are only two countries. Second, if someone actually took enough bases it would not automatically reset the arena, and no one would be able to capture anything or for that matter do anything until a volunteer from the staff, came in and manually put all the settings in again.
If you do understand that base captures will be difficult and still want to make this your objective, you can. Folks are really trying to build a community here, so all types are needed.
yes we cannot reset the map. but if it is a historical arena wouldnt people WANT the omaha beach head? wouldnt they WANT St. Lo? and wouldnt they WANT bastogne? these all would involve territory capturing or city taking... Yes there are only two countries but this has nothing to do with base capture system. It would have been there 2 country 3 or 4...
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AvA should be about historical advances (and alternate reality). Not mindless furballing engagements.
It is doable... and would bring more folks to the AvA which is currently a silent arena of less than 10 people, and if lucky 5 people on average.
i gotta agree with bb here. what is AvA other than a furballing arena with no icon and historical planes? this is why we need to promote and get more pilots in order to get the ball rolling on base taking... base taking can be fun. I'd love to be able to capture normandy or during the BoB have an axis land invasion
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Base capture can have a place in the arena. It is a different dynamic than the MA.
One problem is that there is a limited population and sometimes there isn't enough opposition.
My squad has been known to do captures even against no opposition for practice, we are carefull not to run the map and sometimes switch sides and capture the other way to make sure it stays even.
Even so, a wide variety of scenarios will be run, some will have capture as an objective, some won't, sometimes C-47's will be enabled, sometimes only vehicle troop transports will be enabled to stimulate some GV action.
Sometimes only LVT troop transport will be enabled, but on most set-ups capture will be possible.
Keep in mind that the AvA is a tough crowd pleaser, any set-up that someone will like is bound to be a point of contention to someone else.
There is basically nothing that hasn't been tried in the past.
It's just a question of continuing to try and re-try things to find that magic combo, that brings the arena to life, and sustains that interest for more than a week or so, if there is such a combo.
I believe that the arena cannot find sustained success as a fur ball only arena with historical plane sets, and am a strong proponent of some sort of objective based play, but finding the right way to do this is much harder than you would think.
New set-ups are being created, and the set-ups rotate every week. It's a great place to make a home.
Tuesday nights we get some good 10 vs 10 or more battles going, other nights we get some decent numbers as well.
Sometimes you can even find playable numbers in the afternoon, Iv'e had some great times on Mondays and Wednesdays with daytime and Euro based players.
There are a lot of creative juices flowing right now. Stick around, you are bound to see some cool things.
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No offense gldnbb but I believe you have the wrong idea on this setup...and the AH crowd in general...the no enemy icon deal is something new, not like it was in WBs where people had the S3s and the WWII arena and a few years to learn to enjoy it...it does not appeal to a majority of the population within AH...there is also some old bad blood that still haunts the AvA. Do some searches on the no enemy icon issue and you will see a lot of negativity rather than open mindedness...you can also search for AvA discussions and find the reasons the AvA is mostly empty even with the efforts of people brainstorming trying to come up with ways to bring people in. It's going to be a long uphill battle but I'm confident things will improve.
I noticed your response regarding the bomb sight calibration issue...I flew WBs last year...most nights you would run into a few members of the Ferrets in the WWII arena, then someone would have to jump into the main arena and get others to join in...it rarely lasted more than a few hours, then the arena would empty out completely...everyone would shuffle back to the main arena...I do not recall ever needing to calibrate a bomb sight...and I made a lot of bombing runs on the CV fleets when they were part of the terrain setup using Lancasters. Right now there is a discussion about using easy mode bomb sights in the AvA to try and attract more players who like bombing...if/when that does happen it will be on a trial basis...right now keeping an open mind and contributing ideas that are not self serving is the only way we have a chance to increase the number of players frequenting the AvA.
If everyone would look closely at the write up for the setup that is on the arena now, you will see that base capture is not really a part of the scenario...nor is it even possible with the aircraft involved...the ground vehicles are a useless addition...an unfortunate oversight. The operations that occurred in real life were nothing more than bombing runs to strike back at the Germans for the Battle of Britain...as described in the first paragraph of the setup.
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I believe that the arena cannot find sustained success as a fur ball only arena with historical plane sets, and am a strong proponent of some sort of objective based play, but finding the right way to do this is much harder than you would think.
New set-ups are being created, and the set-ups rotate every week. It's a great place to make a home.
Tuesday nights we get some good 10 vs 10 or more battles going, other nights we get some decent numbers as well.
There are a lot of creative juices flowing right now. Stick around, you are bound to see some cool things.
for the first part i quoted: simple... create a primary objective target such as a base or city for each side with secondaries and triniary targets for bonus points. The ETO map could easily put a large city in place of Caen and another for St. Lo. Both of these could have a small airbase town with map room for an airfield nearby or if for more challenge add 2 or 3 more map rooms. This could simulate an allied invasion and capture of two key strategic cities on the Norman coast. The Axis must defend these objectives. say, one city capture would be 10 points, and the other another ten. while this is the Allied objective, make the Axis have to control the normandy coastline. how many Vbases are there? 6? 2 points per base. Spawn points would speed GV action. (of course i'd LOVE the European terrain intead of palm trees :furious ). This would create D-Day operations for both sides! and if AvA had this point style of combat with a historical balance then we'd have our AvA flyers that we all wish for.
for the second: it's my third home, second to MA, third to my house. :aok
for the third read number one
for the fourth: im not going anywhere :D
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Sir,
As I previously stated, I have 5 years experience in a historical arena in Warbirds. 2 colors, 2 sides and base captures work. The current AvA setup makes it hard to capture, but is slowly doable (such as war). It brings together more people wanting more out of a historical sim (some like gv'ing, some jaboing, some bombing, all to advance the war). AvA should be about historical advances (and alternate reality). Not mindless furballing engagements.
Again, it is a waste of time to design bombers and gvs (that has troops), if there is no point in capturing bases for which there is water separating each enemy without c47s. Which then denegrates to a furball arena which again is the primary role of a 'dueling' arena and not the AvA arena. Your statement makes it one sided to favor fighter jocks and no one else. It is a waste of time for bombers to fly in manual calibration without the end-thrill of being able to capture a base.
Base capturing is completely doable since the arena creators frequently visit to reset it (I hope). And as I previously stated, each arena lasts a week, base captures are slow. So not many resets would be required at all.
The WWII warbirds arena equivalent constantly bring in the furballers, bombers, jabo'ers, tankers, and base takers because they know they are contributing toward the eventual base capture. This WWII arena achieves camraderie, coordination, intense battles for at least 4 hours a night during Mondays and Thursday and approximately 15-30 folks each week. More than can be said for the AvA arena.
It is doable... and would bring more folks to the AvA which is currently a silent arena of less than 10 people, and if lucky 5 people on average.
There are very few AVA setups that do not have the base capture option. This is one of the few. Base capture is usally an option in most AVA setups... There are going to be setups you like and there are going to be setups you don't like. It's that way for all of us. I will consider what you've said in this thread and try to include a base capture option in any future setups I put forward.
the ground vehicles are a useless addition...an unfortunate oversight.
Actually Gyrene the ground vehicles are not an oversite at all. They were put there to counter vulching.
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Sorry double posted :huh
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gldnbb,
There is one huge difference between the WWII arena in WB’s and the AvA. The former would reset automatically when one side “won the war” by capturing enemy bases. This isn’t the case with the AvA where the arena simply becomes unusable and game play comes to grinding halt. This is a bug that can only be resolved by the game developers themselves and honestly, if they were interested the issue would have been fixed a long time ago.
In WB’s historically minded players like ourselves had the full support of the game developers behind us. Unfortunately the opposite is true over here. Our desire for a first rate historically based arena is simply tolerated by the people in charge.
My point is this: I agree completely with the idea of applying the WWII arena model to the AvA. But the reality is the CM’s don’t have the tools at their disposal that we had in WB’s. So we have to be extremely creative in finding ways of working around the road blocks resulting from lack of support at the development level.
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I think there needs to be some serious out of the box thinking.
In "that other game" I had a big toolbox and tried lots of stuff. We encouraged large heavy bomber raids in the Europe theater by tying ownership of airfields to tonnage dropped on the nearby city. I built several supply line based strategy systems in different terrains. At one point I even had the capability to limit airframes available to players and built a real time 72 hour Battle of Britain with the historical numbers of aircraft at the historical bases.
What I learned personally is that the design of the arena must focus the fight and provide a purpose. The major flaw in Aces High and Warbirds is airfield centered objectives. Only in the Pacific was the fight ever about an airfield. And this airfield - centric game play runs counter to keeping players interested because when the fight is over an airfield and one side or the other has the ability to close it (keep the other guy from flying) you directly kill the fight by taking away the ability to fly.
What the AvA really needs is to shift from this style of terrain design. In the real world, the ground forces take territory with support from bombers, attack, and observation/rescue/utility aircraft. Fighters protect these valuable and vulnerable aircraft.
The big question is how to simulate this process without requiring a bunch of people to do stuff they don't necessarily want to do.
As things currently stand in Aces High it would all have to be done manually, which would require direct supervision by someone with arena privileges and the desire to objectively judge results. This really isn't a realistic possibility outside of an arena event not more than a few hours long.
I do think AvA events are the place to start but that has its own set of problems. Events require someone to design and manage the event. That someone has to be proficient in arena setup and possess the ability to quickly and accurately reconfigure the arena according to the needs of the event.
I am not intimately familiar with AH arena setup but what I have seen looks very similar to WB. What I don't know is the level of arena privilege HTC allows. Back when AH allowed 8 person arenas I had lots of fun setting those up. If the same level of access is available to someone with privileges in the AvA then there would be the possibility of designing and creating interesting events that fit into what I think BB is looking for.
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Dawger,
Given the reset bug that plagues the arena and lack of support from the game designers, what are the chances for implementing the scripting capabilities that enabled many of the game play features we had in WB’s? Or any core improvements to the arena for that matter. Thinking outside of the box becomes much more difficult when someone already has the lid tightly shut.
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No offense gldnbb but I believe you have the wrong idea on this setup...and the AH crowd in general...the no enemy icon deal is something new, not like it was in WBs where people had the S3s and the WWII arena and a few years to learn to enjoy it...it does not appeal to a majority of the population within AH...
My disccussion has nothing to do with no-icons. In fact, I love it. My discussion only involves a lack of base capture ability in the current setup that separates 2 countrys by water, which denegrates to a mindless furball...
I noticed your response regarding the bomb sight calibration issue...I flew WBs last year...most nights you would run into a few members of the Ferrets in the WWII arena, then someone would have to jump into the main arena and get others to join in...it rarely lasted more than a few hours, then the arena would empty out completely...everyone would shuffle back to the main arena...
That is what I had already said, but lately the WWII Warbirds doesget a good share of people during at least 2 nights and then there are sparsely amounts of people on other nights. We get many squads coming to join us Ferrets or oppose us with numbers hitting 30-50's on these nights. And then as the night winds down it becomes sparse again but on other nights I had seen a few numbers in there capturing or defending. AvA at times feel to mimics this sparsenesss. However, has the ability to grab more people with the terrain capture ability and complexity that WB will never have....Can be so much more player participation with it offering so much more realism than WBs
I do not recall ever needing to calibrate a bomb sight...and I made a lot of bombing runs on the CV fleets when they were part of the terrain setup using Lancasters. Right now there is a discussion about using easy mode bomb sights in the AvA to try and attract more players who like bombing...if/when that does happen it will be on a trial basis...right now keeping an open mind and contributing ideas that are not self serving is the only way we have a chance to increase the number of players frequenting the AvA.
You calibrate bomb sights in WBs, just that the system does it for you and it takes about 30 seconds to fully calibrate. It's just too easy and allows too much hankary with bomb and bail problems and unrealistic NOE raids.... Easy mode calibration may bring in numbers, but will bring running of the map and required resets (which some fear). For me, the way I see things, manual calibration is not hard at all once you get the procedures down. In fact I'm quite a capable manual mode bomber because of AvA practice. It is both exceptional and appropriate for the AvA also because it aids in practice for FSO's and Special events, for which if you don't practice prior to these events then there is a steep learning curve when you sign up for the missions on these events. Manual calibaration for bombers is equal to the no-icons for fighters. A positive thrill for which the AvA can be.
If everyone would look closely at the write up for the setup that is on the arena now, you will see that base capture is not really a part of the scenario...nor is it even possible with the aircraft involved...the ground vehicles are a useless addition...an unfortunate oversight. The operations that occurred in real life were nothing more than bombing runs to strike back at the Germans for the Battle of Britain...as described in the first paragraph of the setup.
I saw the write up, and understand it. Just pointing out that the nice detail the person went through to design this piece of history is nice, but also a waste of time to include bombers and gvs for this history if all you truly are offering are the fighter jocks to slug it out over the skies with no thought to the other guys that bring other elements to the war. What's the point in bombing the other side if you know that there is no outcome to affect the other side? Will this map lead to next week's point in the war? Maps are not chronological as I see, and only last a week. not much fun can come out of staying in an arena to use the bombers if you can't really affect the other side. Which then just leads to one fun conclusion, only go in there to use fighters as a 'dueling' contest between two factions. Which is just for the fighters alone, and no one else.
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Dawger,
Given the reset bug that plagues the arena and lack of support from the game designers, what are the chances for implementing the scripting capabilities that enabled many of the game play features we had in WB’s? Or any core improvements to the arena for that matter. Thinking outside of the box becomes much more difficult when someone already has the lid tightly shut.
I assume you are referring to the current state of affairs in WB's. I haven't been there in three years. As for Aces High implementing a scripting system it would only require HTC deciding to do it. It was a very simple system and I am sure it would be no problem to accomplish.
The issue is the motivation to do so. The scripting system in WB was built to allow some new revenue streams for the parent company. It wasn't something done to directly help the existing WB player group. That was a side benefit that was minimally exploited and is generally wasted.
If HTC created a scripting system for customers to use and supported it on any level it would be a major boon for those looking for different game play. Couple that with changes in terrain design philosophy and the possibilities are tremendous but there are some serious obstacles to any of that coming to fruition.
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I assume you are referring to the current state of affairs in WB's. I haven't been there in three years. As for Aces High implementing a scripting system it would only require HTC deciding to do it. It was a very simple system and I am sure it would be no problem to accomplish.
The issue is the motivation to do so. The scripting system in WB was built to allow some new revenue streams for the parent company. It wasn't something done to directly help the existing WB player group. That was a side benefit that was minimally exploited and is generally wasted.
If HTC created a scripting system for customers to use and supported it on any level it would be a major boon for those looking for different game play. Couple that with changes in terrain design philosophy and the possibilities are tremendous but there are some serious obstacles to any of that coming to fruition.
I recall the scripting system, tried at one point, as was a great element to a 'war' feeling in warbirds. Do something to one base, and halt resupplying. CV's come by and help a nearby base. Aces high main arena has a rudimentary resupply of convoys and trains and thrilling to see it that being used, but also you can affect enemies by hitting their strat factorys/fuel depots/citys.
That is fun and why so many types of pilots fly in the main arena, plus for base captures!
Which AH currently blows WB out of the water in terms of complexities and current strategies.
Tuesday nights with SWOOPS b24 raids over enemy cities in the main arena are awesome fun for bomber and fighters. Why? because it has an eventual outcome that can aid in future base captures for others. Either design the AvA with chronological progression week to week (as WWIIol does) or allow base captures to occur within each map which also give the bombers something to do as well.
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Either design the AvA with chronological progression week to week (as WWIIol does) or allow base captures to occur within each map which also give the bombers something to do as well.
Can't with the current server control available to the CM's...and a general lack of terrains suitable to the Ava...several of us have suggested campaign style map rotations and such...can't be done.
I never saw 30 in the WWII arena even on a good night...must have been something that just started since you ferrets started advertising some activities or before I started WBs.
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Either design the AvA with chronological progression week to week (as WWIIol does) or allow base captures to occur within each map which also give the bombers something to do as well.
Or better yet you could just sit out the occasional week. :aok
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I never saw 30 in the WWII arena even on a good night...must have been something that just started since you ferrets started advertising some activities or before I started WBs.
Ever since Tmetcalf left Warbirds, old style play and rolling plane sets are starting to return back. I clearly recall being impressed a number of squad nights where numbers are up in the 40s and 50s. More frequently seeing some 30s.
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Or better yet you could just sit out the occasional week. Thumbs UP!
That shouldn't have to be the solution, but if you previously posted this current setup is rarely here, then that is good news.
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The AvA is going through a major makeover. Just wait & see. :aok
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Ever since Tmetcalf left Warbirds, old style play and rolling plane sets are starting to return back. I clearly recall being impressed a number of squad nights where numbers are up in the 40s and 50s. More frequently seeing some 30s.
Metcalf was out of his league trying to take over the programming...I've seen the discussion on the boards about rolling plane sets in the WWII arena...after a couple of years of people poopooing the idea. Gonna find the same poopooing here until people realize it's a good way to do things if they want to see some varied action outside of furballs...
There have been nights here when there were 30+ in the AvA just recently...depends on the setup. There are big differences in the way territorial battles occur here vs WBs...as you noted the strat system is one aspect...but all that does is change how fast resupply occurs on its own...people can speed up the resupply of a base with field supplies from one base to another...strats aren't generally used in the AvA but there has been some discussion about incorporating them into the setups...
The maps here a much bigger than they were in WBs too...some of the special events maps are massive...there is a partial list that shows strat maps for the terrains currently available for use here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Terrains_for_Special_Events (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Terrains_for_Special_Events)
This one takes a while to travel across...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/images/4/42/Northsea_Strat.jpg (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/images/4/42/Northsea_Strat.jpg)
Like I tried to point out to you before...it's not just the setups or the maps...it's the general mentality that is different here. There aren't many who even want to try the no enemy icons unlike WBs S3 events and the WWII arena...even fewer who enjoy the historical matchups that get put on the AvA server especially if they don't include the late war Allied planes...and none of the special events are run like the S3s. You and your squad know better than anyone what it's like to sit on an empty server waiting for someone to jump in...no one here wants to do it.
Tuesday nights with SWOOPS b24 raids over enemy cities in the main arena are awesome fun for bomber and fighters. Why? because it has an eventual outcome that can aid in future base captures for others.
Swoops Titanic Tuesday bomb runs on strats very rarely have any effect on base captures...he advertises them in the forums so that the few people who like to do something besides furball on Tuesdays have something to look forward to. There is more furballing going on in the main arenas than anything else...it's just the mindset of the masses.
As Ranger eluded...there are some changes being planned that should pick up the action a bit. I believe your suggestions have been noted...particularly concerning territorial battles and possibly automated arena resets if HTC will allow it.
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_T69hxpGvuXw/Sy-dfHxXp5I/AAAAAAAAAgU/hQJEQx_uaJU/s400/thinking-outside-the-box.jpg)
Outside of base capturing, what else besides a good battle could one ask for?
Someone put it very eloquently here that the fight in AH is centered over the field to be captured. Some tools that HTC has allowed us are strats to target. The problem is the way we currently use them in MA style of play.
GoldenBB, I suggest that you take a look at these strats and come up with placement in a way that would qualify as an enticing target. Give the development team something to work with. This is an arena that is still evolving. It would be awesome, if your ideas could be implemented and given a chance to draw more players and enhance the immersion.
Simply allowing base capture unchecked 24/7 right now would be a BIG mistake in my opinion.
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That shouldn't have to be the solution, but if you previously posted this current setup is rarely here, then that is good news.
Everybody bending over backwards to please one guy who likes to take bases in an empty arena isn't a solution either. The situation been explained to you over and over in this thread, People have offered ideas offered to ensure your base capture option is on and at all times even suggested to you that you design setups you'd like to see. Yet you're still standing on your soap box making demands.
Either design the AvA with chronological progression week to week (as WWIIol does) or allow base captures to occur within each map which also give the bombers something to do as well.
As has been explained to you over and over in this thread this is one of the rare setups where there is no base capture. So where are all the people when base capture is turned on?? You find the same people flying week end and week out. Base capture doesn't magically bring numbers into the area. Other than you and that other guy that likes to take bases and pork dar when the arena is empty. Funny I never see you trying it when the arena is active during the evening. People are doing their best to improve the arena. Everybody's ideas get tried. Maybe you'd like to pitch in and help or is just sitting back and complaining your thing?
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Gldnbb, this weeks setup is not designed, nor made to be conducive to base capture. while i agree with you about not being able to take bases, that's just the way the setup is. best thing to do is find an alternative for the week and hope that next week is different. the few people that are in there, are usually pretty good about dogfighting between the 2 closest bases. you can always up a set of Ju88's or Bostons and beat the snot out of one of the airbases for fun.
give it a little time. it won't always be the setup that's in there now. in the meantime have some fun with some of the other aspects of the game in there.
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Things must have changed mightily in Warbirds if the S3 is no enemy icon and the WWII arena is no enemy icon. There was violent opposition to no icon anything, especially in S3. It is too much of a points game for those idiots to allow no icons, ever. Someone would have to show me some stout proof before I believe that stuff.
I hate base capture play style and not because I am against bombers and attack aircraft. It is not the way the war was fought and is boring as hell after 12 years. But terrains are designed for capture the air base. You really can't develop a different style of game play until you build terrains that get away from the airfield centered war.
The terrains in the AvA are too large for the population. The setups need to reflect the reality of the AvA population and drastically reduce the number of available airfields in order to focus the fight.
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The terrains in the AvA are too large for the population. The setups need to reflect the reality of the AvA population and drastically reduce the number of available airfields in order to focus the fight.
This part is going to be addressed in a big time way.
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Lots of cryptic remarks popping up in this thread but I've learned over a decade in MMOG that when the insiders are cryptic the outsiders usually don't like the end result.
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Dawger, the AvA staff is looking to get new smaller terrains made. Not trying to be cryptic, just trying to hold off on saying anything definitive until some are finished and approved.
New maps can be made, but what can be done with the current game engine for tactical and strategic objective play outside of base capture?
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Dawger, the AvA staff is looking to get new smaller terrains made. Not trying to be cryptic, just trying to hold off on saying anything definitive until some are finished and approved.
New maps can be made, but what can be done with the current game engine for tactical and strategic objective play outside of base capture?
Depends on what you define as base capture? In the real world the fight was centered on the communication system (Communication in a military sense...the ability to control a physical line of communication or contact). It can be thought of as supply lines. In this context the fight was over crossroads, bridges, ports, mountain passes and the like. Airfields were situated away from the forward edge of battle. Airfields that were too close were abandoned to the advancing enemy, not fought over. A terrain that was designed for the "front" to be advanced by capturing parts of the communication system as I describe would be the place to start. Once the terrain existed then the strategy layer has to be built on top of it to make it work. Airfields in this type terrain need only be runways with a spawn point since they would not be targets for capture.
As an example, in such a terrain the players should only be able to capture and hold strategically valuable points that are near or on the front. No jumping to the rear. I believe AH has the beginnings of this sort of strategic system but without a terrain built specifically for something like this no progress can be made.
Anyway, I believe such a terrain and strategy system would give players a reason to drive tanks, fly attack aircraft and bombers and fighter jocks would want to be where the fight was. A well designed terrain for historical 2 sided war is pretty easy to design so that the fight can only be in a few locations, thereby concentrating the fight.
DISCLAIMER: The above is only in reference to a limited historically minded arena, not for general population game play designed to attract large crowds. It is aimed at the limited audience of those interested in teamwork based game play with settings that attempt to reproduce the real world conditions that make flying a non-fighter non-suicidal (no icons is an example of such a setting)
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based on whats available right now, all we have to capture is bases and ports. while we are working on things to make it better, this is all we have to play with. i guess we'll just have to use our imaginations until something better comes out or is created for us to play with.
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Is there anything that says the capturable base has to have a runway?
Is there anything that says you can't have a runway and spawn points that can't be captured?
These are honest questions because I don't know.
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Is there anything that says the capturable base has to have a runway?
Is there anything that says you can't have a runway and spawn points that can't be captured?
These are honest questions because I don't know.
No it doesn't have to have a runway...but it has to be a base of some sort.
Yes you can have bases that cannot be captured but in AH there currently isn't anything else to fight over. Dropping strats only brings things down to 25%...and as far as I know there isn't any way to tie strats in with bases...like take a base and the nearby city/factory changes ownership. There aren't a lot of destroyable objects and nothing that can be tied in to a strategic system of warfare...the existing terrains are not conducive to much more than 2 sided MA gameplay.
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Okay, show us a jpg or two so we can see what you're talking about. This description is much too vague to work as it's presented.
Depends on what you define as base capture? In the real world the fight was centered on the communication system (Communication in a military sense...the ability to control a physical line of communication or contact). It can be thought of as supply lines. In this context the fight was over crossroads, bridges, ports, mountain passes and the like. Airfields were situated away from the forward edge of battle. Airfields that were too close were abandoned to the advancing enemy, not fought over. A terrain that was designed for the "front" to be advanced by capturing parts of the communication system as I describe would be the place to start. Once the terrain existed then the strategy layer has to be built on top of it to make it work. Airfields in this type terrain need only be runways with a spawn point since they would not be targets for capture.
As an example, in such a terrain the players should only be able to capture and hold strategically valuable points that are near or on the front. No jumping to the rear. I believe AH has the beginnings of this sort of strategic system but without a terrain built specifically for something like this no progress can be made.
Anyway, I believe such a terrain and strategy system would give players a reason to drive tanks, fly attack aircraft and bombers and fighter jocks would want to be where the fight was. A well designed terrain for historical 2 sided war is pretty easy to design so that the fight can only be in a few locations, thereby concentrating the fight.
DISCLAIMER: The above is only in reference to a limited historically minded arena, not for general population game play designed to attract large crowds. It is aimed at the limited audience of those interested in teamwork based game play with settings that attempt to reproduce the real world conditions that make flying a non-fighter non-suicidal (no icons is an example of such a setting)
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Like Jimson said, works in progress seem to be more along the line of what is being asked for. Does that mean that you will have your wishes granted? No one can say, until we have a finished and approved alternative.
In the meantime, come in and try the current setups, the way they are designed and see if you can't find something to do with the bombers added. Bombing all the fighter hangars down, where easy fighter action might occur, will be severely frowned upon by almost everyone who currently flies in the arena. Capturing one of these bases, and forcing a much longer flight to battle, will also draw even more criticism.
When I design a mission to do a capture or an attack in the AvA:
- confirm settings - don't be surprised if settings have been changed, due to the persistence of individual porkers / milkers / experimenting type players
- choose a target base that does not impede the preferred fight
- gather as many participants as possible, squads, BB posts, spam other Arenas, etc.
- announce ahead of time a mission will be run
- *important - Tune channel 200 and communicate on "All" channel
Then post the results of your mission on the forums. Jaeger's propaganda for the JG54 was something I looked forward to reading (cough) debunking :neener:
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Dawger, the AvA staff is looking to get new smaller terrains made. Not trying to be cryptic, just trying to hold off on saying anything definitive until some are finished and approved.
New maps can be made, but what can be done with the current game engine for tactical and strategic objective play outside of base capture?
Be cryptic it adds suspense. :D
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Other than you and that other guy that likes to take bases and pork dar when the arena is empty. Funny I never see you trying it when the arena is active during the evening. People are doing their best to improve the arena. Everybody's ideas get tried. Maybe you'd like to pitch in and help or is just sitting back and complaining your thing?
Sorry but you have the wrong idea about me.
1) I dont 'pork' anything. If I understand correctly, 'porking' is a bad term? Do i misunderstand that? Well I'll explain it my way... Radar, like Vh's are strategic for continuing successful operations. I try to simulate a war and move the Front and if anyone is online try to get teamwork to do so. That's what I'm accustomed to doing even in Warbirds. Yes, also I do go on fighter sweeps to mix things up. But I never just go out looking for a fight and land kills and gloat. I fight to advance and fight to defend, not for a stalemate.
2) I fly when I can possibly do so, there are other things to do outside of AH and WB. And in that point, I do fly WB squad nights Mondays and S3 Sundays. Then there is the AH squad nights when I try to fly Thursdays. The rest is real life and any other time I can possibly be online to fly, given all the life issues out there. And when I do fly and it is not the other areas being busy Sunday, Monday, Thursday, Friday night flying, I do pop into the AvA and cannot be blamed for trying to have fun when the arena is empty. Never do I look for an empty arena to capitalize on..
3) And yes, I have been trying to pitch in 'my views'. Not sit back. If I sat back, I wouldnt have even bothered to post here to begin with and then shuffle off to the main arena. And given time on point #2, my time is limited. But what time I have I wouldn't mind trying to see how could help, which was why I was bringing ideas to the table. Albiet they differ from yours and the experiences you have had. That is what 'time' is for. The irony..
Lets just take the time to get the kinks worked out, shall we.
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I removed my intended sarcastic response instead I want to reply to your quote below from another thread.
This is all you had to say to begin with. It's doubtful there is anybody against base capture or GVs in the AVA. Me least of all. I don't participate much in either but I've always considered them good for the AVA. I designed 10 setups for the AVA two have no base capture option. Leaning into France is probably my least favorite of any of the setups. I'm just not an RAF vs Luftwaffe guy. However I know some people are so I made the setup with the Luftwaffe and RAF types in mind. I try to appeal to different interest yet give a historic setting on any setups I come up with. Also when I design setups and submit them to the AVA staff it is not up to me when they get used or if they get used at all I have no say so in that department. However I think you should know there is no subversive movement to keep base capture out of the AVA actually it's quite the opposite. Had you made this post first, many of us would have probably taken your issue in a different light.
<S>
I understand your option of seeing 'action' differ than mine. Legitimate explanation of C47s are that they do bring action, they do bring teamwork. It worked in Dday, with people wanting to come with me to bomb a field, go after fighters, hunting bombers coming into our fields, hunting enemy troop carriers, running fighter ops, gv ops. That is all because of the wonders of the C47 when bases are separated by water.
Enemies come to stop you, you up to take them out with other fighters, they fight back, you fight back, they gain ground, they lose ground. That is war.
Take that away and all you have left are people just out for a good dogfight for an entire week. A duel with historical plane match. I get it what you and a few others want when flying online, It's fine just as long as us other folks get what we would like to have. You just want a week to dog fight, that is fine by me. It's ok to have that one moment in history where you can just duke it out. Go for it.. Just as our moments in history where we would like the mirage of belief we are mud moving toward winning an unwinnable war because the mirage disapears in one week, your dogfight scenario disappears in one week. Or does it? (During D-day I still saw plenty of guys dogfighting with limited plane sets over the very same part of the channel).
But It's ok, just as long as it bring participation in other upcoming maps. Hard work designing something to keep things interesting.
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Up base capture to twenty troops and increase the hardness of the town buildings
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Lots of cryptic remarks popping up in this thread but I've learned over a decade in MMOG that when the insiders are cryptic the outsiders usually don't like the end result.
:rolleyes:
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I say consistent settings from setup to setup, allow the choice of ride be the only variable. Include GVs and capture with each setup, keep some bases un-captureable so the dogfighters will have opportunity and also to prevent a reset. Icons I like the way they are, dark I hate but seems to have a following, I also like the thought of dot dar only in the tower but Bar Dar from cockpit to find fight. Just my opinion of course, but either way been having fun in the AvA when I get a chance to get online. <S>
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No it doesn't have to have a runway...but it has to be a base of some sort.
Yes you can have bases that cannot be captured but in AH there currently isn't anything else to fight over. Dropping strats only brings things down to 25%...and as far as I know there isn't any way to tie strats in with bases...like take a base and the nearby city/factory changes ownership. There aren't a lot of destroyable objects and nothing that can be tied in to a strategic system of warfare...the existing terrains are not conducive to much more than 2 sided MA gameplay.
How far away from a base can you create a spawn point for aircraft?
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Has anyone ever tried setting up an AvA event on an off FSO night?
I have never seen anyone notify from the server (in light blue text) that reaches out to the MAs. I may be able to spark interest from my squad to come in on those off FSO nights if this is a possibility.
Often times, week nights are often difficult for many of us.
Your thoughts?
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Has anyone ever tried setting up an AvA event on an off FSO night?
I have never seen anyone notify from the server (in light blue text) that reaches out to the MAs. I may be able to spark interest from my squad to come in on those off FSO nights if this is a possibility.
Often times, week nights are often difficult for many of us.
Your thoughts?
That would be a great idea, and would convince some who would normally be online in big numbers anyway. If other squads go in there on Friday Off-FSO-nights, I could see about getting some of my Squad in there also.
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Has anyone ever tried setting up an AvA event on an off FSO night?
I have never seen anyone notify from the server (in light blue text) that reaches out to the MAs. I may be able to spark interest from my squad to come in on those off FSO nights if this is a possibility.
Often times, week nights are often difficult for many of us.
Your thoughts?
There is one hitch, Dadog is running the combat challenge on off Fridays. No enemy icons and the logs are on. It may be worth a try though.
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Originally posted by TheBug:
I say consistent settings from setup to setup, allow the choice of ride be the only variable. Include GVs and capture with each setup, keep some bases un-captureable so the dogfighters will have opportunity and also to prevent a reset. Icons I like the way they are, dark I hate but seems to have a following, I also like the thought of dot dar only in the tower but Bar Dar from cockpit to find fight.
+1 :aok