Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Beefcake on May 20, 2010, 04:48:10 PM
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Lately I've been coming to terms with the fact that AH needs another Axis bomber, and I REALLY want to fly an He-111 in BOB. :)
So with that in mind I'd like to ask what model of the He-111 would be best for AH? I know some versions had 20mm guns for defense which would be great for the MA.
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No He111 is going to be good for the LW MA. It was obsolete by 1942 and the more they added on to it to try to compensate just made it slower and more vulnerable.
For a LW MA bomber the Germans really have three options, the Do217E, He177A-5 and the Ju188A.
The He111 would have a great place in scenarios and the early war environments.
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Do 217 wasn't all that vital as a LW bomber. More often than not it was used as maritime recon, recon, and night fighter. I'm personally opposed to the He177 because it would be completely without flaws in AH, when there was better than even chance you'd burn up after takeoff in the real thing. It was a severely flawed and dangerous aircraft, with a prolonged teething period, and in AH that would be gone making it artificially far superior to the real thing.
I won't hide the fact that I want the Ju188, though. :) I may be biased.
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Ju188A would be my preference as well. By a long shot.
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On the other hand.....
.... who says we can't have them all? :noid
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He177 is the one that is likely to see regular use in late war. If Karnak's concerns are a real issue, they can be addressed by a symbolic perk tag. Bomber perks are cheaper than ice in Greenland and will not truly limit anyone, except for the psychological effect.
Ju188 is nice, but is it a great improvement over the current Ju88 which is not the first model?
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Yes, I would say a bomber with the same bomb load having a top speed of ~335mph and defended by heavier guns, including an MG151/20 in the top turret which, unlike the Ki-67's, has full 360 degree rotation is a great improvement.
The Ju88's airframe is actually pretty durable in AH. Add in the speed and guns and it would be a good package.
The Ju188 is also a great looking bomber.
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After looking up some info I would agree on the Ju188.
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Ju 188 like a crazy looking Ju88...on steroids. Was a good aircraft.
The 111 would be a bit of a hangar queen in the MA I think, the Ju88 we have is simply better.
Was used launching V-1's over sea at low alt, which would be a fun twist, - but again, then we'd need a V-1.
Was durable, and could carry quite a bit though. And the look and view ...ohhh...nice ;)
I'd vote for it, -but then we need more of BoB'ing. Finally BoB would have the main axis bomber.
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I want this. :D A Mistel.
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/Ju88_mistel.jpg)
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I want this. :D A Mistel.
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/Ju88_mistel.jpg)
And, it counts as two kills.
:devil
wrongway
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Trying to do BOB without the DO17 and the HE111 shifts the scenario balance totally in favour of the Axis (ju88s)
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We need the HE 111 zwilling. :noid
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Yes, because a plane that didn't carry any bombs, and was designed solely for the purpose of towing the largest gliders of WW2, is really what AH needs, eh?
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Do 217 wasn't all that vital as a LW bomber. More often than not it was used as maritime recon, recon, and night fighter. I'm personally opposed to the He177 because it would be completely without flaws in AH, when there was better than even chance you'd burn up after takeoff in the real thing. It was a severely flawed and dangerous aircraft, with a prolonged teething period, and in AH that would be gone making it artificially far superior to the real thing.
I won't hide the fact that I want the Ju188, though. :) I may be biased.
The main production model, the A-5, did not have any significant vices. It was the most survivable LW bomber during the Baby Blitz with a 10% loss ratio. The other LW bombers suffered losses in excess of 60%. The He 177A-5 was also successful on the eastern front and operated almost with impunity, flying high and fast.
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Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.
Like you say, over the eastern front it had no opposition, so how do you think that affects loss ratios? :)
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Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.
Like you say, over the eastern front it had no opposition, so how do you think that affects loss ratios? :)
The loss ratio would have been far more than 10% if "there was better than even chance you'd burn up after takeoff". The Greif is historically lamented for its early stability and engine problems, but the fact is that by the A-5 model these problems were ironed out and the He 177 had proved itself to be the most technically advanced bomber of the Luftwaffe. The RAF were impressed by the postwar tests on the He 177 A-5 and the single long-range He 177 A-7 they captured. Another very advanced bomber, the B-29, also had a reputation for catching fire, and also took two years to have its problems ironed out, after which it became one of the most successful bombers of aviation history. Unlike the B-29 the He 177 never got the chance to show its full potential due to the misfortunes of war.
He 177 A-1
First production series, 130 built. Stability problems. Engine problems.
He 177 A-3
Second production series, 170 built. Sixteenth and subsequent aircraft powered by DB 610 A/B engines. Engine problems. Structural problems.
He 177 A-5
Main production series, 826 built. Strengthened wing, shortened undercarriage oleo legs, increase in maximum external bomb load.
Those 300 A-1's and A-3's are largely responsible for the Greif's unfavorable reputation.
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Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.
Mosquito bombers were not mainly used for guerrilla tactics. They were used as high alt level bombers just like the other RAF bombers and flying with their stream (overtaking it). One major point is that the RAF was bombing at night and at their speeds they were incredibly hard to intercept by night fighters - fighters could not creep up on them from behind like it is normally done at night because the closure rate was so small it took forever - if at all.
The low lost rate for the B. Mossies was a combination of escaping night fighters and mostly due flak avoidance - twice the speed means half the time spent in the acks. Half the size means quarter the area to be hit by acks.
RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated.
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RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated.
Don't believe thats accurate regarding escort. Initially in 43 Beaus escorted Beaus. When Mossies came to Coastal Command they initially escorted Beaus but it was determined it wasn't effective. Mustangs then escorted both although never in great numbers. They did not lose that escort once they got them although there was talk of it at times. 315 Squadron was first in Mustang IIIs then 19 and 65 squadron got the job with Mustang IVs. 4th FG USAAF also escorted them on one occasion.
Suggest taking a look at "A Separate Little War" about the Banff Strike Wing which was Mossies for the most part. Dalachy had the Beaus.
As for He111s. Adding it would mean adding the B of B version. In terms of the MA, no one is going to live long behind all that glass in the nose and one little mg for defense. We sure could use it for the B of B scenario, but survivability without escort would be non-existent in the MA
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He 111H-3 for BoB. He 111H-16 for 1943 Eastern Front and Mediterranean scenarios. He 111H-20 (the last major production model) for 1944 Eastern Front scenarios.
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Yes, because a plane that didn't carry any bombs, and was designed solely for the purpose of towing the largest gliders of WW2, is really what AH needs, eh?
But it had five engines man would make the perfect recon plane. Na can't keep the jokes up under krusty's need to point out the obvious.
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Don't believe thats accurate regarding escort. Initially in 43 Beaus escorted Beaus. When Mossies came to Coastal Command they initially escorted Beaus but it was determined it wasn't effective. Mustangs then escorted both although never in great numbers. They did not lose that escort once they got them although there was talk of it at times. 315 Squadron was first in Mustang IIIs then 19 and 65 squadron got the job with Mustang IVs. 4th FG USAAF also escorted them on one occasion.
Suggest taking a look at "A Separate Little War" about the Banff Strike Wing which was Mossies for the most part. Dalachy had the Beaus.
As for He111s. Adding it would mean adding the B of B version. In terms of the MA, no one is going to live long behind all that glass in the nose and one little mg for defense. We sure could use it for the B of B scenario, but survivability without escort would be non-existent in the MA
I think my local librarian is begining to hate you Dan ;) We recently got a new one . Part of the local bond measure required library staff to make earnest efforts to aquire books requested by members . It was in response to public perception <accurate btw> that the library aquired books requested by a small minority of the users that represented a large portion of private donations , it only amounted to a very small portion of the total budget . While our taxes got us no consideration their little donations got them front door keys . Keep the recommendations coming . The section containing WW2 aviation history books is becoming quite respectable . This section is also becoming one of the largest contributors to the oregon interlibrary loan program . You can also now find some good fantasy books in our fiction section . A genre that is looked upon with disdain by the "elite" that never the less is popular with us common tax paying scum .
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We need the HE 111 zwilling. :noid
:aok
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JU-188 T....look at the performance :aok
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Yes, because a plane that didn't carry any bombs, and was designed solely for the purpose of towing the largest gliders of WW2, is really what AH needs, eh?
I'm sure you can't be reffering to the 111...please oh please tell me you're kidding. :confused:
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I'm sure you can't be reffering to the 111...please oh please tell me you're kidding. :confused:
The 111z was designed and built to launch the Me-231.
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The 111z was designed and built to launch the Me-231.
And was so bad at it they ended up sticking engines onto the glider itself, making it self-propelled.
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Ahoi Bozon:
"RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated."
Just FYI, an old Mustang stick told me that escorting the Mossie was quite a silly thing because they cruised so fast and could hold their own. He was in awe about them.
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The best He 111 variant for AH would be the versatile H-6; it served in great numbers on all fronts, both as a bomber and torpedo-bomber.
And I rather like the KG26 'Lion' badge.
:cool: