Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: FiLtH on May 21, 2010, 11:46:36 PM
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I havent had that much fun in an fso in awhile. I think it would be fun to switch sides and do 3 more frames.
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Outstanding! Had a great time <S> All!
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I havent had that much fun in an fso in awhile. I think it would be fun to switch sides and do 3 more frames.
+1
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Have to agree that was one of the funnest FSO's I've been in. Just as much fun as the BOB FSO's or 8th AF FSO's. I agree with FiLtH I wont mind switching sides and running it again.
Setup crew did a great job on the plane sets given what we have available. Stoney great job moving squads after frame 1 to balance it out as well.
I hated the 20 min flight to get into sector but the 30 min running gun battles made it all worth it.
Nicely done guys, nicely done <S>
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I have been so busy and out of town I could only fly in the last frame, (last night) but had a good time to be sure. :)
Stoney, TracerX, 68Lurch thanks for the hours in toward our fun. :)
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Let me start by saying I appreciate what the setup teams do for the FSO's, if it wasn't for them I doubt I'd still be flying around here. But to call this a "Great FSO" is too much for to sit back and take in. Did you look at the stats for all 3 frames :uhoh it's pushing a 3:1(2.766:1 actual) kill ratio in favor of the allies, I'd like to know what other FSO ever pushed a kill ratio like that for one side? I'm sure it was a lot of fun for the allied squads, but I'm sure a lot of squads like mine that flew axis couldn't wait for it to be over. So if you think it's a Great FSO, that's fine, but I think you are ignoring all the stats and facts of how this FSO actually was. Now again I'm not criticizing the setup team here, I know they have a hard job of balancing this out and it sometimes doesn't work. I'm only critisizing calling something this lopsided as "Great".
:salute
BigRat
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BigRat, as allied it was what you play FSO for. Lots of targets..and they all cant run away. Why do you think I suggested switching sides and trying it again?
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BigRat, as allied it was what you play FSO for. Lots of targets..and they all cant run away. Why do you think I suggested switching sides and trying it again?
Filth,
No, I don't play FSO for lots of kills. Far from it. But if this was a balanced FSO, there wouldn't be any need to switch sides and trying it again. My point was that for this to be a "Great FSO" there would have been a question to the outcome and both sides had a chance to win. I'd love for this to be switched sides and go at it again, then it would be a balanced FSO, and if the outcome was the same it's our own fault. So my question goes back to you, why was this a "Great FSO" or should the title of actually been "Great FSO for us", in which case I wouldn't have even posted, becouse I'm sure it was a lot of fun for you and your squad. No hostility toward you Filth, just consider "Great FSO" in the title line, to meaning a well balanced, struggle to the end, where the outcome of the battle is always in doubt. This is where I'm disagreeing.
:salute
BigRat
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As much as I would want to agree with BigRat...that idea that the kill ratio made it "less than fun" is a large bite of b.s. He wouldn't have brought it up if the tables were turned. It was a challenge for us Axis players for sure. The substitute aircraft for the Allies made it more difficult just because the capabilities are better than what the Japanese actually encountered in that battle...but that is the nature of the beast in AH since there are a lot of aircraft missing.
Not a "great FSO" but it was very fun. No big deal, there will be another FSO.
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Big Rat,
I agree that the outcome was one sided... but as an Axis player for this FSO, it was extremely intense! And for me, that is why I fly FSO. I flew Frame 1 and frame 3... both in the B25. Frame one I was mauled by I-16's, but after I hit my target and was egressing... So it was a "decent" frame. But for me... frame 3 was the best of the set. I picked up a great tail gunner (SnotRckt) after we hit the target, and had a running gunfight for 3/4 of the way back to base with some Brewsters. It was nail-biting, white-knuckling, chain-smoking fun for the whole family! I had no idea from one second to the next if it was going to be my last in the air.
My point is... sometimes the sides are going to be unbalanced, and the logs may show a massacre. But what made it fun was the way it unfolded... which can never be predicted. I have flown in "balanced" frames that were nothing but boredom. You just never know how the frame will play out.
And I would be remiss without giving a BIG :aok to SheGotYa. Great job as CiC! :salute
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I have to agree that it was fun for me too as an Axis Pilot. :joystick:
I can also see the frustration as well, I had some pilots who were upset about the outcome of every frame.
I think maybe the Axis needed a bigger advantage pilot wise.
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<--- B-25 driver for axis all three frames!
the first one we got to target and got ord off, then got massacred
the second we got massacred at the target
so last night we figured we would see the same thing, the mission was appropriately tagged for me as get it done or get it over with!
a new strategy was devised, go strait to target and face the music, most of my group figured we would be back in the MA within 20 minutes!
We were extremely surprised when we not only hit our target, but also were dragging brewsters that couldn't catch us, the long trip home was as AKP said " A white knuckle ride",
SO for me , at least,,, it was a great FSO! we left with 6 b-25's and got back home with 4, we lost most if not all of our escorts to combat, but the bombers got thru!
<<S>> to those who flew last night knowing they would die, you all did A wonderful job worthy of any award that could be given for the effort! :airplane:
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As much as I would want to agree with BigRat...that idea that the kill ratio made it "less than fun" is a large bite of b.s. He wouldn't have brought it up if the tables were turned. It was a challenge for us Axis players for sure. The substitute aircraft for the Allies made it more difficult just because the capabilities are better than what the Japanese actually encountered in that battle...but that is the nature of the beast in AH since there are a lot of aircraft missing.
Not a "great FSO" but it was very fun. No big deal, there will be another FSO.
gyrene81,
Did you read my post? The kill ratio wasn't brought up as the fun factor, it was brought up to show how unbalanced. "He wouldn't have brought it up if the tables were turned." obviously you don't know me and I don't see you helping in the TA, so I don't know you, so I won't make judgements on you like you did me. If it's a lopsided battle either way I normally don't post, reread my posts and then ask me again why I posted this at all. The answer is in the writing. If you need the answer, I was simply disagreeing with the idea of this being a "Great FSO" in my oppinion for the reasons I stated earlier. Now having fun in the FSO is the important thing, and if you did great, that's the idea. But isn't a "Great FSO", both balanced and fun? It's a extremely hard balance to strike, and I can only remember a few really great FSO's, yea I had fun in most but only a few did I also question if we won our lost or vice versa. So again my only gripe is the use of the word "Great" for this FSO. Again no offence to the setup teams, it's not like you can really pre-run one of these things and check on how the side balancing will be. You simply make your best educated guess and let it go, and it is what it is
:salute
BigRat
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First a big WTG to the names in lights for Axis!!
Axis stats:
Pilots: 239 Kills: 77 Assists: 54
Objects Destroyed: 38 Deaths: 141 Landed: 49
Bailed: 4 Captured: 34 Crashed: 12
Ditched: 3 Disco'd: 15
Top Pilots: Objects Destroyed
AKNoT (Arabian Knights): 2
BudGray (Duxford Wing RAF): 2
BLKSHP88 (VF 15 Satans Playmates II): 2
Gldnbb (LCA): 2
BigB (332nd Flying Mongrels): 2
Bannor (~ ~ ~FATE~ ~ ~): 2
catfish (95th/FS \"BoneHeads\"): 2
Top Pilots: Kills
COLT44 (Sick Puppies): 4
kansas2 (332nd Flying Mongrels): 3
scooner (9GIAP VVS RKKA): 3
Muttman (Sick Puppies): 3
tuk151 (WD40): 2
quietman (353rd Fighter Group): 2
Jonah (Kommando Nowotny): 2
Top Squads: Objects Destroyed
VF 15 Satans Playmates II: 11
Arabian Knights: 7
~ ~ ~FATE~ ~ ~: 4
Top Squads: Kills
Sick Puppies: 9
332nd Flying Mongrels: 8
III/JG11: 6
Next a big :salute to the FSO CM TEAM for without them there would be others we may not like! Our time is priceless so to volunteer it for others enjoyment is definitely appreciated.
I have to admit I peered in here covering one eye and squinting with the other but, I am glad to see the posts that have been made. I can agree with them all which is odd but, true.
My percentage of needing a "balanced" FSO is low since as stated already even the perfectly balanced ones have had personal flaws. I say personal since I think everyone has there personal preferences on how detailed they want the event to go. From the most laid back to the most technical it makes a great event for sure!
I am one of the laid back FSOers and there because of you and my squaddies.
Last night was kind of like dinner at that "one" relatives house:
You know you have to go to their house (SEA)
You got your spouse/children backing you up (SQUAD)
You know your gonna be broken and battered if not damaged before getting out (PW, Dead Stick etc.)
but,
Your spouse/children get you home or at least stay by your side (SQUAD)
Sometimes it ends and there is a break and sometimes your kid stays (FRAME 1)
Then you have to go back and get your little one and do it all over again (FRAME 2 & 3)
:rofl
And I would be remiss without giving a BIG :aok to SheGotYa. Great job as CiC! :salute
Thanks!
Was fun for me. I had alot of opinions to tweak the things I could so to those who did that for me THANK YOU!
:salute
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Wd40 got their Arses handed to them again by super high Brewsters'. :joystick: However, we understand that it goes that way sometimes. I will bandage my little children up, wash them, then bring them back for the next one...
Salute to The Satan's Playmates. We have enjoyed your company, and communication through frames 2 and 3.
:salute To all cic's and Fso Staff.. :cheers:
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Wd40 got their Arses handed to them again by super high Brewsters'. :joystick: However, we understand that it goes that way sometimes. I will bandage my little children up, wash them, then bring them back for the next one...
Salute to The Satans Playmates. We have enjoyed your company, and communication through frames 2 and 3.
:salute To all cic's and Fso Staff.. :cheers:
Right back at ya TUK... you and your squaddies are :aok
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BigRat :salute I did read your first post, repeatedly to try and get some idea of what your primary concern was...and your subsequent posts reinforced what I originally thought. Reading your words I see "lopsided kill ratio equals inbalance"...hence my counter of b.s. Yes I agree it wasn't a "Great FSO", but then in the reality within each persons mind, few are when you're on the side that gets slaughtered in all frames. Without going overboard on the numbers for each side and opening a different can of worms, it was as balanced as it could get.
The A6M2 is no match for the Finnish Brewster and only experienced players have a chance 1v1...which I'm guessing as a trainer you know...but with FSO time constraints and assignments even experience isn't much help when you're in a crowd of more maneuverable planes. The Brewster and Hurricane should have been limited in numbers but that's just my opinion.
And, if you think there is any need for someone to teach people how to put any aircraft in AH into an unrecoverable flat spin, or how to rip the wings off any plane I'll help out in the TA.
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Just to let you know about how I approached the side-balancing:
For the first frame, the reason it wound up like it did was (1) I thought the qualitative superiority of the Zeke over the Hurri I, P-40B, I-16, and Brewster would make a much larger difference and (2) the min/max from side assignments foretold a small numerical advantage for the Axis. As it turned out, the Axis basically had a minimum participation level turnout, and that made the sides more 50/50. On top of that, the Axis flew about 20 more Vals that frame than they had to, and that was 20 Zekes they didn't have. I hadn't planned on that.
Second frame, the numbers turned out very close to what I thought they would be after the adjustment. The Axis had about 40 more pilots than the Allies, at about 225 to 185. Considering the min numbers of Vals and B-25s that were used, that meant the Axis should have had about 150 fighters to the Allies 185. That, at the time, did not seem imbalanced to me at all. Allied CIC also did a good job of recognizing the high-payoff potential of the strat target, and had a larger force defending it than the other objectives. For the most part, the Axis attack forces were fairly balanced, so there was a numerical disadvantage for the Axis over Rangoon. To Nef's credit, he put together some hasty orders that allowed us to fly the frame. Knowing him, had he more time, I'm sure his plan would have anticipated that as well.
Third frame, the assignments were the same, but this time, the Axis used more Vals than required again, which cut into the number of available fighters for the Axis.
Both frame 1 and frame 3, we had first-time CICs, who did a good job on the organizational level of the orders, but perhaps could have used more effective tactics and task-organization. We've all been new CICs before, and the learning curve is always steep. I'm sure they've learned a few things that they may choose to do differently next time.
When I originally put this setup together, I thought about how I would approach the objectives if I had been the Axis CIC. The B-25's are suited for the strat targets at Rangoon, so my 12 formations would have been assigned the strat target each frame. Given there were 4 other objectives, I would have used ~15 Vals per target, and everything else would have been escorts. In my opinion, 150 Zekes should be competitive with 180 or so of the early allied aircraft. Perhaps it should have been a 1:1 ratio of Axis to Allied fighters. But, that would have made the numbers break out to 60% Japanese players to 40% Allied players and I would have never thought we would need such a disparity to make things equitable.
Anyway, for those that got pummeled each frame, sorry. For those that enjoyed it, good. Regardless, what is so apparent to the players after the results of a frame are posted is not so easily foreseen by those of us that put these events together. If your crystal ball is calibrated better than mine, Daddog might be able to use you in the future.
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Both frame 1 and frame 3, we had first-time CICs, who did a good job on the organizational level of the orders, but perhaps could have used more effective tactics and task-organization.
Thanks and yes, definite a learning experience as I am sure they all are when it comes to what you do and what you could have done. I again want to thank you for your help and look forward to bothering you in the future for more! :D
Here is one thing not mentioned in the posts I have read for this FSO and at least the last few months for sure ...
In addition to organization, effective tactics, task-organization and all the other "expected" jobs of the CiC there was for me the unexpected job of ...
Telling squads where to go at "go time"
&
The close to the end redirects (I see the need for this. I was just unaware it happens)
I did not expect in addition to what I knew I had to do (regardless of turn out and if it was planned and executed well) I felt there was alot of my time typing the very orders I spent the time typing out and sending prior to the event. Believe me I have signed on quite a few Friday nights not knowing what the heck we were doing but, I asked my CO not the CiC who I imagined was very busy and now that I had my turn at it for the first time I was right .. they are very busy! LOL I can see it being less and less "busy" as experience weighs in but, the chain of command is there for a reason.
Big :salute to CiC's past and future! It is work but, comes with great reward to watch the execution of your plan good or bad IMO.
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That problem happens SGY. Its the Co's, that are dropping the ball when that happens. If they recieve the orders they should desperse them... :salute
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That problem happens SGY. Its the Co's, that are dropping the ball when that happens. If they recieve the orders they should desperse them... :salute
I am sure you are 100% accurate but, in addition, there are some CO's on the ball every week and the squad doesn't read them. I am just saying ask the CO or squad what is up for the night if you don't know and leave the organization, effective tactics, task-organization and all the other "expected" jobs of the CiC for the CiC.
Not trying to find out who's dropping balls around here just wanted to point out chain of command.
Truth is I just like to hear myself talk so there it is! :D
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BigRat :salute I did read your first post, repeatedly to try and get some idea of what your primary concern was...and your subsequent posts reinforced what I originally thought. Reading your words I see "lopsided kill ratio equals inbalance"...hence my counter of b.s. Yes I agree it wasn't a "Great FSO", but then in the reality within each persons mind, few are when you're on the side that gets slaughtered in all frames. Without going overboard on the numbers for each side and opening a different can of worms, it was as balanced as it could get.
The A6M2 is no match for the Finnish Brewster and only experienced players have a chance 1v1...which I'm guessing as a trainer you know...but with FSO time constraints and assignments even experience isn't much help when you're in a crowd of more maneuverable planes. The Brewster and Hurricane should have been limited in numbers but that's just my opinion.
gyrene81,
Good post and I agree with ya :aok No hard feelings from me :D.
"And, if you think there is any need for someone to teach people how to put any aircraft in AH into an unrecoverable flat spin, or how to rip the wings off any plane I'll help out in the TA."
I haven't had a request for that yet :rofl, but If you'd like to stop in the TA sometime around 9 central during the week, feel free to introduce yourself. That way I will know you :aok
:salute
BigRat
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<S> 68Lurch, Tracerx and Stoney. I thought it was a great FSO considering the early war Planes. :airplane: The CM's did a great job. I think Stoney's reply is perfect. Almost nothing goes unplanned in FSO. The CM's work months in advance to set up the fights on Friday nights. They agonize over the smallest details. I can't post from our private page but I have seen pages of debate over plane sets, sky color and wind settings. BTW have you ever compared our maps to the actual combat zones? They are amazing. (except for the whole palm tree in Europe thing and we are working on that). And the CM's devote their time and effort to make it all come together. I am bias and will probably get in trouble for this but, personally, I think FSO is the best part of the game. The Unforgiven has two or three people that just play the game for FSO. :salute For me, I was surprised at how well the Brewster performs against the Zero. Add in the armour plating and the little beast takes alot of damage. Tuk, that was the Unforgiven in the Brewsters.... And while we did slice into you, the NOE bombers with you made it to target and inflicted a great deal of damage. All of which I suspect was your mission. I thought the CIC's did a great job of mission planning. I echo the first comment, for an early war FSO, This was alot of fun! :aok
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I'm thinking of a Rick Nelson tune right now. :D
http://s0.ilike.com/play#Rick+Nelson:Garden+Party:63335:s149128.15816.33613.1.1.79%2Cstd_919f761e1ff3123fb0c7ee74e3f6638e
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Insert size 12 foot into mouth...
Unfortunately, the major variable that is hardest to compensate for are the idiosyncrasies of human nature. There are those that go the extra mile for all, those that follow as expected and a handful that need to be constantly spoon-fed.
Being an old squid, I'm in complete agreement with the concept of the chain-of-command. CO's should be held responsible for the actions of their squadmates. If someone is being a royal pita, especially during a Special Event, they should be the ones to drop the hammer on that particular individual to get them in line with the rules and regs. Granted, the fine line here is that we pay to be here, not vice versa. However, if someone's actions are constantly to the detriment of others, I say hand them a squadron less-than-honorable discharge and send them packing. As the FSO's are squad events, maybe they would take the hint and clean up their act with their next squadron.
IMHO, the same applies to those that jump the C-O-C and hassle those trying to run an op. Just because someone does it, that doesn't mean that one has to acknowledge their existence on planet Earth. Ignore them. If they have more than 2 active brain cells, they should be able to figure out that they need to seek info from a more appropriate level, within their own C-O-C. "A lack of planning (initiative) on your part doesn't automatically constitute an emergency on my part".
The bottom line here is that we're not playing Monopoly, cards, or checkers. This is a military simulation. To me, the MA's are arcade-oriented. It's the SE's that are the meat and potatoes for those of us seeking recreations of historical events. As such, I feel we should abide, in essence, to the well established rules and regs of the real-world military.
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As an axis pilot this FSO was tough. Still had fun, but it was tough. That is one of the reasons I like the FSO's. I don't want to be on the winning/superior side every time.
Only two things I would say about it are:
1. Wish there weren't as many Brewsters out there. Seemed to have the most trouble with them. Maybe limit them a little more next time?
2. IMO this FSO highlights the need for the Betty bomber and to a less degree the Ki-43.
FSO rock and I will see ya next month :salute
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Ok ok..PERSONALLY...I had a GREAT FSO!
I was just glad we had planes fighting on the deck, actually FIGHTing eachother, few able to run away. Its rare in AH to see that. I bet more than a couple on both sides were thinking "If I only had my 51!"