Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: shotgunneeley on May 23, 2010, 09:29:33 AM
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My family owns a 2 year old Yorkie named Olive (I say "my family" because I want nothing to do with her. "My" dogs are a black lab named Sky and rat terrier/beagle named TJ). I'm away at college most of the time, so I only have to deal with her on the weekends. Since this is summer and I'm back home, she is driving me crazy.
My sister went through a phase where she was just lapdog crazy and had to have one. So when my dad and I went on a hunting trip, my mom and sister covertly picked the little demon up from a breeder. Since then, my mom and I fully regret ever getting her and my sister is lukewarm about having her as well, but the real trouble is that my dad has fallen head-over-heels for her. He loves her so much that he calls her "Daddy's girl" and other disgusting, vomit-inducing nicknames. He even feeds her at the table even though we tell him not to because now she starts to beg and whine driving us nuts.
Basically, I want her gone. In the 2 years she's been here she has not undergone one bit of obedience training or housebreaking. I cant do it because I'm away at school plus i never wanted her in the first place. Mom is way to busy with running a household to train her and, like me, never wanted her to begin with. My sister is just too irresponsible to train or care for her, but does seem to regret getting her now that she has had a taste of what a house dog is like. Dad comes in from work and just likes to hold, play and pet her. He has rarely cleaned up after her defaulting that duty over to someone else. Luckily, (if you can call it that) she has found one corner of the house to do her business in, but man does she do it a lot! We're constantly cleaning up after her, she barks loudly and bites my mom and sister (in a playful way, not aggressively) on the legs as they walk in. We've had to keep barriers up to keep her on the tiled area of the house since she is not potty trained, but we're about sick of this.
We've tried talking to him about giving her up to another home or at the least getting her trained by someone else. I argue that this is no way to live and it is completely disgusting but he just ignores us and lives in a blissfully unaware, pigheaded state that she is a great dog and not causing in trouble for the rest of us. In my opinion, its the ones who have to look after her who should determine her fate in this household. I've delivered an ultimatum that either she gets trained or finds a new home. Wether or not he takes me seriously is his decision, but if he doesn't he is going to wake up one morning and find her gone.
Has anybody here gone through this?
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Those little rats have no use except as, dog food or fertilizer. If I were you or your mother, every time that dog messes in the house, I'd put it in your sisters room and on your dads favorite chair.
Make it disappear. :noid
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It's not your dog, you're away at school most of the time. Don't worry about it. It's not your problem. I would ask your folks why they don't mind a dog chitting in the corner. Maybe you should try that and see what they say about that.
If no one has the time to teach the dog manners, give it away. And for pete sakes don't get any more dogs until you have the time to take care of them.
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You sister is the one who wanted to be paris hilton so it should be her worry and responsibility. Tell her to quit ducking it and do something about it, dogs aren't fashion accessories or status symbols.
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I just ran an experiment on my dog. I have a well mannered German Shepherd that keeps his house in good order. I climbed into his house a took a dump in the corner, and sure enough he is extremely pissed at me right now. He has threatened to bite my face off if I attempt this again.
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I just ran an experiment on my dog. I have a well mannered German Shepherd that keeps his house in good order. I climbed into his house a took a dump in the corner, and sure enough he is extremely pissed at me right now. He has threatened to bite my face off if I attempt this again.
(http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/userstuff/Divinar/2009128211639_smiley_ROFLMAO_2.gif)
Almost ruined my monitor and keyboard...
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She wanted it for the cute and cudly factor. She is not vain to walk around and show off the little thing like a fashion accessory.
Yes, having an inside dog when you have the option of an outside dog is ridiculous. I still live in this house so it is still very much my problem because i don't want the side hall to be
a toilet.
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Both my sisters and mom used to have Yorkies. In my experience they were the sweetest most harmless little creatures. As they aged they did develope some potty on the rug problems, but thats what you get when you bring any animal inside. Eventually.
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simple fix.
get your own house and quit telling y'er dad what to do in his.
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simple fix.
get your own house and quit telling y'er dad what to do in his.
+1
What do you pay for rent? How many scholarships do you have to pay for school?
Move out.
wrongway
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There are a few easy steps to solving the bathroom in the house problem. First I'd like to point out that she really is your father's issue to deal with, since she is daddy's girl after all.
First thing first, DO NOT just leave food and water out for the dog all day to take at her leisure. This is for a number of reasons. Dogs have a fast system, they'll need to poop anywhere from immediately to a half an hour after eating, and if they have a good diet, that should be the only time they go. Pretty much the same thing applies to drinking, they'll pee shortly after, but females especially since they don't compulsively mark will usually only go to the bathroom very shortly after drinking. Also, the member of the pack who controls the food and water is the alpha, the leader. Since it sounds like the dog already has leadership problems, this should go a good way towards getting her in line. Feed the dog either once or twice a day, at your discretion, give water at that same time. Leave it for a while 10 or 20 minutes, and then put it away. You as the humans control the eating, and consequently the bathroom, and this will help the dog to understand its place in the pack, relieving a lot of anxiety and behavior problems. Also, when you feed the dog, hold the food quietly and with an attitude of calm control, do not allow the dog to jump or bark at you and make her give you a couple of feet of space. Physically push her back a few times if you need to. You don't have to talk to her to communicate that really, just use your attitude and presence. She'll get the idea sooner than you expect her to. A few days of that and when it comes feeding time she'll calm herself right down and behave, because she knows that's what is required of her if she wants to eat. There is a pack hierarchy, and it sounds an awful lot like you all are allowing her to be the leader and not the follower.
Second, get a kennel, large enough for her to stand up and turn around in with no problem. Put a bed in there, some blankets or a purchased dog bed, something comfortable. It should be small enough that the dog can't use the bathroom in there and still have room to be away from the mess. This kennel becomes the dog's den, and she will grow to really love it. If she's reluctant at first, look up some articles or books on crate training, follow their instruction and she'll adapt. Soon that kennel will become her refuge and she'll very willingly go there all the time. Dogs will not use the bathroom in their den, it's against their every instinct.
When the dog is outside of the kennel, she needs to be on a leash, and a member of the household needs to have the leash, even if it's tied to the beltloop that's fine. This also reinforces to the dog that the humans are the leaders who are in charge, not the dog. It also allows you a quick and easy method of making behavioral corrections, make sure you have a training collar, I like the nylon ones, they're very cheap and last a long time. You put them in in a certain way so that they will slack back after tightening, and leave it on the dog. Then you just clip the leash to the training collar. This is not cruel or mean in any way at all. It does not choke the dog in the slightest. A quick pop of the leash and a sound simply tightens the leash for a second, like an alpha dog giving a short quick discipline nip at the dog's neck. It doesn't hurt the dog, and it very effectively communicates to her that whatever behavior she's doing is not acceptable to you, the leader. When the dog is not on leash, she is to be in the kennel. Period. After a while, once she starts to get the drift, you can start taking her offleash for short periods of time. Eventually she will get proper habits and can always be offleash in the house, though she'll still want to spend plenty of time in her kennel.
Third, get a pack of training treats, keep them by the door. Ideally they should be small and chewy, something she can eat quickly and that won't make crumbs. The crumbs will distract the dog and take away from the lesson. Immediately after feeding and watering the dog, immediately carry her outside to where you want her to use the bathroom. The second she goes, tell her in a happy voice, Good Girl!! or something similar and give her a treat. You have to give the treat immediately. That tells her that what she just did is good and pleasing behavior to you, and she'll want to repeat it. A couple of weeks of that and you start giving the treat not every single time, but just some of the time. Then after that begin to taper it off.
Also, do not scold the dog for using the bathroom in the house, don't rub her nose in it or like that. Dogs don't think in the same way that we do. They see things as being either safe or unsafe. If you catch her using the bathroom in the house, she'll associate being seen using the bathroom in the house as an unsafe thing to do. What you will have created then is not a dog that won't go in the house, you've created a dog that will hide to go in the house. She won't then go when you take her outside, because you have told her that if you see her using the bathroom you get angry and it's not safe, so she will actually hold it until you get back inside, then hide and go. You will have defeated your own purpose.
Use enzyme cleaners to soak down and clean up the spots where she's been going. Those areas have scent markers now that must be destroyed, otherwise the scent tells the dog that is a proper place to go.
That's about all I can think of right of the top of my head. I'm sure there's more, ask if you don't understand something or if I've left something out.
It really is not all that hard, you just have to be consistent with it. Reward good behavior, correct bad behavior, it's that simple. You just have to get a better handle on how dogs think and communicate so that you can send messages that they can understand.
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simple fix.
get your own house and quit telling y'er dad what to do in his.
+2
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simple fix.
get your own house and quit telling y'er dad what to do in his.
+100
When you have your own place you can set the rules. In the mean time it's your Dad's house and he's paying the bills and maybe even your bills too. If you find the dog too repellent you can stay at school on the weekends. All too soon your Dad will be gone forever and you will be missing having him there including the dog that makes him happy.
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If ya 'accidentally' left the door open and nudged (read: cocked your arm and THREW) the dog outside...would the rat find its way back to the house? :D
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My family owns a 2 year old Yorkie named Olive (I say "my family" because I want nothing to do with her. "My" dogs are a black lab named Sky and rat terrier/beagle named TJ). I'm away at college most of the time, so I only have to deal with her on the weekends. Since this is summer and I'm back home, she is driving me crazy.
My sister went through a phase where she was just lapdog crazy and had to have one. So when my dad and I went on a hunting trip, my mom and sister covertly picked the little demon up from a breeder. Since then, my mom and I fully regret ever getting her and my sister is lukewarm about having her as well, but the real trouble is that my dad has fallen head-over-heels for her. He loves her so much that he calls her "Daddy's girl" and other disgusting, vomit-inducing nicknames. He even feeds her at the table even though we tell him not to because now she starts to beg and whine driving us nuts.
Basically, I want her gone. In the 2 years she's been here she has not undergone one bit of obedience training or housebreaking. I cant do it because I'm away at school plus i never wanted her in the first place. Mom is way to busy with running a household to train her and, like me, never wanted her to begin with. My sister is just too irresponsible to train or care for her, but does seem to regret getting her now that she has had a taste of what a house dog is like. Dad comes in from work and just likes to hold, play and pet her. He has rarely cleaned up after her defaulting that duty over to someone else. Luckily, (if you can call it that) she has found one corner of the house to do her business in, but man does she do it a lot! We're constantly cleaning up after her, she barks loudly and bites my mom and sister (in a playful way, not aggressively) on the legs as they walk in. We've had to keep barriers up to keep her on the tiled area of the house since she is not potty trained, but we're about sick of this.
We've tried talking to him about giving her up to another home or at the least getting her trained by someone else. I argue that this is no way to live and it is completely disgusting but he just ignores us and lives in a blissfully unaware, pigheaded state that she is a great dog and not causing in trouble for the rest of us. In my opinion, its the ones who have to look after her who should determine her fate in this household. I've delivered an ultimatum that either she gets trained or finds a new home. Wether or not he takes me seriously is his decision, but if he doesn't he is going to wake up one morning and find her gone.
Has anybody here gone through this?
When you get your own place, you can dictate the rules.
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simple fix.
get your own house and quit telling y'er dad what to do in his.
:rofl
That was the first thing that came to my mind as I was reading the poor childs wimpering about what his Dad is doing in his own house.
Get your own damn house. Until then, do what your told to do even if its picking up after that dogs mess, your earning your keep. Appreciate what you got from your folks. :aok
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If ya 'accidentally' left the door open and nudged (read: cocked your arm and THREW) the dog outside...would the rat find its way back to the house? :D
:rofl Ha! We joke about doing just that.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding. I see now that I kept reverting back to "I" in the OP because "I" am the one making this post. Let me clarify that "I" am not the only one making an issue of this, my mom and sister are in agreement as well that we need to start restoring discipline on when to eat and how to go to the bathroom. We have been limiting her food and water to just a half a boll each for the entire day, but I think we will start giving it to her at a certain time of the day for just a short period. We are about to discuss this as a family to take her outside teaching her that outside is the place to go the the bathroom. The problem is that my dad will give her what ever food or water she wants and not discipline her at all, thus negating any sort of structure that we want to put into place.
Now, some of you guys think I should move out, find my own place and stop complaining about this. I think your just trying to hack me off and turn this thread into a flame bait but I'll try and elaborate further. Seriously, you think I'm going to move out and stay away from my family over a dog? Your ripping this out of context when you say that I should stay away at college and be grateful that my dad allows me to come home. Sure, my dad does set the rules, but does that mean they are right? I mean, he sits there at the table and drops crumbs down to her since she sits under him and gives him that pitiful droopy-dog look. This is a health problem that we are trying to correct since the food we cook causes her to have bowel trouble but he still gives into slipping her a few bites. What I said in my OP was that 3 out of 4 (working on the 4th) people in this household think its high-time that we potty train and provide more responsible care. To sum it up, the people who don't want her are the ones that clean up after her while the ones who want her aren't doing a thing. This is the problem.
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Several here have given you your answer. You just want to accept it. You said yourself that your dad sets the rules. So that does make him right. It is his and your mothers house. Not yours or you sisters. As long as he pays the bills he has the right to do whatever he likes, and keep his house in any shape he sees fit, as long as he has the mental ability to do so. Bottom line is that if you don't like it, and don't want to clean up after the dog...move out.
You're at the age now where you think you're the boss and you're not. If you want to run a household, go run your own, and leave your folks to run theirs. You can keep posting until the cows come home but that won't change the facts.
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Three out of four people think it's high time to do something but from your OP no one seems to be willing to do anything.
The simple solution, according to your OP, is to get rid of the dog. I commend you on trying to put the dog on a feeding and elimination schedule. It will go a long way to solving the problem.
I just think alot of us got the impression, from your OP, that, first and foremost, the problem was it was a little foo foo dog that also happened to have no training and bad habits. That's the vibe I got anyhow.
You all need to get together and train yourselves to train the dog. If everyone's not going to pitch in then at least someone who is annoyed at the dog's behavior needs to take charge and try to correct said behavior.
I just see the majority not liking the situation but not willing to try and correct it.
wrongway
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O for pete sakes! Put the dog in a bag and throw it in the creek! Let it watermelon there. :rolleyes:
When dad starts pooping in the corner, then you'll have a problem. :huh
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vinegar, strongest tabasco hot sauce you can find. Mix them together. Put in a small bottle with a spray nozzle.
Spray it over the whole house floor (or carpet) lightly...except near your sister's room.
next morning, the yorkie will greet her with a steaming good morning package.
Repeat for a month. She will get rid of it for you ;)
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:rofl Ha! We joke about doing just that.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding. I see now that I kept reverting back to "I" in the OP because "I" am the one making this post. Let me clarify that "I" am not the only one making an issue of this, my mom and sister are in agreement as well that we need to start restoring discipline on when to eat and how to go to the bathroom. We have been limiting her food and water to just a half a boll each for the entire day, but I think we will start giving it to her at a certain time of the day for just a short period. We are about to discuss this as a family to take her outside teaching her that outside is the place to go the the bathroom. The problem is that my dad will give her what ever food or water she wants and not discipline her at all, thus negating any sort of structure that we want to put into place.
Now, some of you guys think I should move out, find my own place and stop complaining about this. I think your just trying to hack me off and turn this thread into a flame bait but I'll try and elaborate further. Seriously, you think I'm going to move out and stay away from my family over a dog? Your ripping this out of context when you say that I should stay away at college and be grateful that my dad allows me to come home. Sure, my dad does set the rules, but does that mean they are right? I mean, he sits there at the table and drops crumbs down to her since she sits under him and gives him that pitiful droopy-dog look. This is a health problem that we are trying to correct since the food we cook causes her to have bowel trouble but he still gives into slipping her a few bites. What I said in my OP was that 3 out of 4 (working on the 4th) people in this household think its high-time that we potty train and provide more responsible care. To sum it up, the people who don't want her are the ones that clean up after her while the ones who want her aren't doing a thing. This is the problem.
Read my entire post man. It's not enough just to limit the food and water to half a bowl for the entire day. Just leaving a set amount out simply will never work, ever.
Also, half a bowl of food is very likely too much for a Yorkie. If it's a ten pound dog, and you're feeding it a quality dog food, it should probably be eating about half a cup to 3/4 of a cup a day max. You really should look into feeding her a very high quality dog food also, they're nutrient dense and don't have filler like cheap foods do. Consequently, you'll feed her less and she'll poop much less. Look into Innova Evo Red Meat formula, it's the best I've ever been able to find, and it's grain free. You can half the amount that she goes just by making that change.
Read everything I wrote in that last post. If you guys can follow that for two weeks you can get the dog house trained in that time with no problems. I've done that many times with many dogs, rescue dogs, dogs I've been sitting for a few weeks, relative's dogs, all that sort of thing. It simply works.
It's not enough just to limit the food though, you have to only offer it once or twice a day and only for a short time, then immediately take the dog outside until it goes. It's a little bit of work, sure, but worth it in the end and everyone will be happier for it.
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Yeah maddafinga I haven't been able to reply this afternoon but you've given me the best advice here. I appreciate it and that's the kind of post i was hoping to get. I said we would start feeding her at a certain time of the day just like you said in your first post.
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I'd just refuse to clean up after the problem dog, but that returns to the topic of who is in charge at the house. Maybe cleaning up after his filthy undisciplined mutt is your Dad's way of making you pay rent.
Find any excuse necessary, but if your Dad is causing the dog's discipline and sanitation problems, then ignore the dog and the messes it makes. It might take a while but when your Dad wonders why the crap is piled up in that special corner and nobody is cleaning up his messes, maybe he'll get the message.
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:rofl Ha! We joke about doing just that.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding.
Now, some of you guys think I should move out, find my own place and stop complaining about this. I think your just trying to hack me off and turn this thread into a flame bait but I'll try and elaborate further. Seriously, you think I'm going to move out and stay away from my family over a dog? Your ripping this out of context when you say that I should stay away at college and be grateful that my dad allows me to come home. Sure, my dad does set the rules, but does that mean they are right? I mean, he sits there at the table and drops crumbs down to her since she sits under him and gives him that pitiful droopy-dog look. This is a health problem that we are trying to correct since the food we cook causes her to have bowel trouble but he still gives into slipping her a few bites. What I said in my OP was that 3 out of 4 (working on the 4th) people in this household think its high-time that we potty train and provide more responsible care. To sum it up, the people who don't want her are the ones that clean up after her while the ones who want her aren't doing a thing. This is the problem.
:aok Right. Flame bait. :rofl :rofl You keep thinking that way.
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:rofl
That was the first thing that came to my mind as I was reading the poor childs wimpering about what his Dad is doing in his own house.
Get your own damn house. Until then, do what your told to do even if its picking up after that dogs mess, your earning your keep. Appreciate what you got from your folks. :aok
That was completely absurd and uncalled for. I do not understand why some people became so hostile to this thread and think I should not care about poop and pee cluttering up the hallway. Based on the little tidbit I gave y'all surrounding the dog you managed to deduce that I am unappreciative to my parents and that cleaning up after a dog that was never wanted by the entire family is my way of earning my keep? What a bunch of authoritarian nonsense! My mom and I never wanted the dog to begin with and would rather give her away than to train her or keep living in our current state. Seeing as the rest of the family want to keep her, then the fair compromise would be to set up a feeding and bathroom schedule to make everyone happy.
Now, you're right in the sense that in two years when I complete my college education, get a good sustaining job and start my own family, I will cease to care as to how my family takes care of the dog. Until then, you are sadly mistaken in believing that I have I have no opinion. I'm not ragging on my dad and sister for loving a little lapdog (she is full of personality and very loveable at times), but I am ragging on the irresponsibility in training her.
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That was completely absurd and uncalled for. I do not understand why some people became so hostile to this thread and think I should not care about poop and pee cluttering up the hallway. Based on the little tidbit I gave y'all surrounding the dog you managed to deduce that I am unappreciative to my parents and that cleaning up after a dog that was never wanted by the entire family is my way of earning my keep? What a bunch of authoritarian nonsense! My mom and I never wanted the dog to begin with and would rather give her away than to train her or keep living in our current state. Seeing as the rest of the family want to keep her, then the fair compromise would be to set up a feeding and bathroom schedule to make everyone happy.
Now, you're right in the sense that in two years when I complete my college education, get a good sustaining job and start my own family, I will cease to care as to how my family takes care of the dog. Until then, you are sadly mistaken in believing that I have I have no opinion. I'm not ragging on my dad and sister for loving a little lapdog (she is full of personality and very loveable at times), but I am ragging on the irresponsibility in training her.
Actually I think you are the one misunderstanding. Yes it is an 'authoritarian' comment, but what it comes down to is respect. You may very well be a legal adult, but the fact that you choose to live in your parents' home (especially if rent free) means that your dad is still has authority over you, REGARDLESS of whether or not you agree with his decisions. You have to remember that there are a lot of Fathers playing this game and reading these message boards, and your comments make you sound like you know everything there is to know about this and that your father knows nothing. No offense, but this is insulting to many of us. This is why you are getting your 'absurd and uncalled for' reactions.
Now, here are your choices:
1> TALK TO YOUR FATHER AND YOUR FAMILY and work something out with them. It is NOT IN YOUR POWER to make any kind of ultimatum with your Dad, and if you choose to do so it may end up with you living on the street and no one to pay your college bills. It seems as if this has been tried and has not worked so lets look at your other options.
2> LET THE DOG LOOSE, GIVE IT AWAY.. WHATEVER. Probably not a good idea. This too may put you out on the street... or even possibly in jail if anyone thinks animal cruelty may be involved. Lets move on
3> MOVE OUT. Well it seems you're trying to avoid this, so lets look at your final option...
4> DEAL WITH IT. Clean up the dog poo if told. Walk the dog if told. Feed the dog if told. Bathe the dog if told. Yes you can get a little creative.. like maybe entice it to leave little 'presents' in your sisters' or your fathers' rooms... but to be perfectly honest, it'd probably just be easier to do the work yourself and maybe even try training her a bit. It's really not all that difficult, besides... it's only two more summers, right? I'm sure you have friends you can hang out with a lot, staying away from home as much as possible...
Seriously though.. what do you want us to say? AWWW why don't you just call the humane society and they will feel so sorry for your situation they will get a court order forcing your dad to give up the dog but yet leaving you anonymous so that you don't have any repercussions from this... yeah like that is going to happen. Those places are backlogged bad enough as it is.
All your comments make you look a like a bit of an 'ungrateful brat'. You may not seem this now, but wait until you have kids... wait until you're older and more mature... then you'll understand. Where I come from, you do what you are told (like it or not) or you get your own place. If I had even CONSIDERED giving my dad any kind of ultimatum (heck even now that would apply!) I'd been thrown down onto the ground on my but so fast I wouldn't know what hit me.
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Actually I think you are the one misunderstanding. Yes it is an 'authoritarian' comment, but what it comes down to is respect. You may very well be a legal adult, but the fact that you choose to live in your parents' home (especially if rent free) means that your dad is still has authority over you, REGARDLESS of whether or not you agree with his decisions. You have to remember that there are a lot of Fathers playing this game and reading these message boards, and your comments make you sound like you know everything there is to know about this and that your father knows nothing. No offense, but this is insulting to many of us. This is why you are getting your 'absurd and uncalled for' reactions.
Now, here are your choices:
1> TALK TO YOUR FATHER AND YOUR FAMILY and work something out with them. It is NOT IN YOUR POWER to make any kind of ultimatum with your Dad, and if you choose to do so it may end up with you living on the street and no one to pay your college bills. It seems as if this has been tried and has not worked so lets look at your other options.
2> LET THE DOG LOOSE, GIVE IT AWAY.. WHATEVER. Probably not a good idea. This too may put you out on the street... or even possibly in jail if anyone thinks animal cruelty may be involved. Lets move on
3> MOVE OUT. Well it seems you're trying to avoid this, so lets look at your final option...
4> DEAL WITH IT. Clean up the dog poo if told. Walk the dog if told. Feed the dog if told. Bathe the dog if told. Yes you can get a little creative.. like maybe entice it to leave little 'presents' in your sisters' or your fathers' rooms... but to be perfectly honest, it'd probably just be easier to do the work yourself and maybe even try training her a bit. It's really not all that difficult, besides... it's only two more summers, right? I'm sure you have friends you can hang out with a lot, staying away from home as much as possible...
Seriously though.. what do you want us to say? AWWW why don't you just call the humane society and they will feel so sorry for your situation they will get a court order forcing your dad to give up the dog but yet leaving you anonymous so that you don't have any repercussions from this... yeah like that is going to happen. Those places are backlogged bad enough as it is.
All your comments make you look a like a bit of an 'ungrateful brat'. You may not seem this now, but wait until you have kids... wait until you're older and more mature... then you'll understand. Where I come from, you do what you are told (like it or not) or you get your own place. If I had even CONSIDERED giving my dad any kind of ultimatum (heck even now that would apply!) I'd been thrown down onto the ground on my but so fast I wouldn't know what hit me.
Perfect post Tigger.