Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TheRapier on May 24, 2010, 06:56:46 PM
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Just a thought for folks.
If what is happening with FA is an example (and it is), I'm going to make a plea for folks to think about how they treat new people coming into this game. I know it won't make any difference to the folks that have their minds made up, but it might for people who are on the fence.
I work in the game industry and I can tell you that the flight genre is getting squeezed. As a percentage of the overall game sales it has dropped precipitately from the heady days of the late 1990s. MMO air combat games are getting fewer in number with fewer players. PC games in general have to compete in the public's mind with consoles which offer a lot of "gaming" for a relatively more palatable price than PC games.
It is not beyond the realm of possibility that within 5 years, this as a genre could practically disappear. It doesn't have to be that way, and you can do something about it.
Traditionally, this genre has had a "hazing" mentality about new people coming in, aka, "I came up the hard way and other people should too". This genre has unique problems/challenges compared to other games.
1. Hardware requirement that are unusual. Most people won't buy a flight rig unless they are serious. These aren't cheap. You can spend as much on the rig as a console costs.
2. Specialized knowledge/skill requirement. Flying air combat isn't easy and the learning curve is brutal.
The point is, it is already tough to get started here.
If we want to continue playing these games, we should be helping people out, not driving them away. It is in our own self interest. Personally, I love this genre and want to see it continue and grow, but it will only happen if the people in it take a more enlightened view. There are plenty of examples of hobbies that have grown over time because a few enthusiastic people have taken the time to nurture others.
That means:
1. Nitwits that like to pretend they are newbies and ask stupid questions over and over again, should find a life. You ain't helpin!
2. When someone new comes in and sincerely asks a question and you have the time, try and help them. What matters the most is that they know someone wants them to be successful.
That's all it takes folks and you can insure a lifetime of fun and great community. To me it seems to be a no brainer, but I'm absolutely sure that someone can and will argue the opposite point. Viva la difference! ;)
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Good Advice and well said! :old: I think we do forget how hard it is to get started. I will do my part. :cheers:
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Some people take advice wrong. Today I was flying a Mossie and a 109 came down from 15k to kill me, hes angle of attack was too steep and he blew his E all in one fail stroke. I sent him a PM saying dont give up your advantage too fast, try to yo yo into better postion for an attack but he replyed all pissed off. I told him just advice and he ended up apologizing for the words he sent and said thanks.
The people coming in have to be able to take contructive critism, just like in most R/L stuff.....if they cant its their own fault....just sayin...
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I was trying to help eaglefly with his sound issues a couple nights ago. It was very hard due to his poor English. I did see him on again last night though.
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Just a thought for folks.
If what is happening with FA is an example (and it is), I'm going to make a plea for folks to think about how they treat new people coming into this game. I know it won't make any difference to the folks that have their minds made up, but it might for people who are on the fence.
I work in the game industry and I can tell you that the flight genre is getting squeezed. As a percentage of the overall game sales it has dropped precipitately from the heady days of the late 1990s. MMO air combat games are getting fewer in number with fewer players. PC games in general have to compete in the public's mind with consoles which offer a lot of "gaming" for a relatively more palatable price than PC games.
It is not beyond the realm of possibility that within 5 years, this as a genre could practically disappear. It doesn't have to be that way, and you can do something about it.
Traditionally, this genre has had a "hazing" mentality about new people coming in, aka, "I came up the hard way and other people should too". This genre has unique problems/challenges compared to other games.
1. Hardware requirement that are unusual. Most people won't buy a flight rig unless they are serious. These aren't cheap. You can spend as much on the rig as a console costs.
2. Specialized knowledge/skill requirement. Flying air combat isn't easy and the learning curve is brutal.
The point is, it is already tough to get started here.
If we want to continue playing these games, we should be helping people out, not driving them away. It is in our own self interest. Personally, I love this genre and want to see it continue and grow, but it will only happen if the people in it take a more enlightened view. There are plenty of examples of hobbies that have grown over time because a few enthusiastic people have taken the time to nurture others.
That means:
1. Nitwits that like to pretend they are newbies and ask stupid questions over and over again, should find a life. You ain't helpin!
2. When someone new comes in and sincerely asks a question and you have the time, try and help them. What matters the most is that they know someone wants them to be successful.
That's all it takes folks and you can insure a lifetime of fun and great community. To me it seems to be a no brainer, but I'm absolutely sure that someone can and will argue the opposite point. Viva la difference! ;)
very well said.
typically..I go out of my way to show appreciation and support for noobs.
(squeakers).....sure..I may giggle at an errant burst...or remind them that it's a military channel and please stop talking about your dream car...every now and again..but I agree...they are the future of this game.
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Rapier
Great post and right on the mark.
I can say that most ex-FA'ers are headed this way over to Aces High for the very reasons you have stated. They think this MMO has the chance to be around longer than others, and they don't want to get burned again. There are a few startup sims out there worth keeping an eye on, but for now AH has the crowd and it looks like it will be around for a little longer, anyway.
FA did have a big push for new subs about a year ago, and we DID get a bunch...I don't know the exact numbers, but I don't think many of them stayed. If I had to guess I would say less than 5%..certainly less than 10%. You can't fly around for a few weeks and get 'Wicked Sick' or 'Godlike' skills in this genre...it takes months and years..just like the real pilots!
I can also say that my transition over here to AH has gone well. I have yet to meet a 'nitwit' or 'dweeb' or a 'hoser'...I mean 'hazer'...(I've met a few 'hosers'..LOL). I have gotten good help whenever I have asked, and folks have been more than helpful. There are always good peeps in the training arena to help as well.
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When someone new comes in and sincerely asks a question and you have the time, try and help them. What matters the most is that they know someone wants them to be successful.
This is the important part of your well thought out post.
I spent about an hour with a new guy once, just to get his vox working. I've also spent time pinging noobs with my .303's and actually letting them fly for 15 minutes in combat just so they can see what it's like to not die after a 1 second burst from some score-tard's cannons. Not sure if they're still here or not, but they were eager to keep upping, ask intelligent questions and learn things.
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So it's not OK to say "Alt+F4 for help screen?" :x
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Yawn..............
Part of the appeal of this game is getting your bellybutton handed to you for a few months.
Once new guys (I was guilty myself, at one time) start actually TAKING the advice that more experienced players have to offer, the new guys will actually get better.
It takes time to learn, period. Spoon feeding each and every 2-week squeeker that just saw a commercial while watching dogfights is not going to make them learn any faster.
If it is help they seek, the help is in the training area. The first time I requested time with a trainer, the response was almost immediate and the trainer was more than helpful and patient with me.
The best way to learn how to not get shot down is to get shot down a few thousand times.
Practice, practice, practice
Muscle memory
Learning a sight picture
Some BCM and ACM.
Ball-busting is a ritual and integral part of joining just about 99% of Fraternal organizations on the planet (yes, this community could be considered a fraternal organization). It weeds out the non-hackers and toughens the skin. It makes you learn to cope or leave.
If I wanted easy mode, Combat FS would be the way to go. :aok
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VonMessa, your reply was exactly what I was expecting. :)
Thanks for not surprising me :)
You made a couple of comments that I think lack support:
Part of the appeal of this game is getting your bellybutton handed to you for a few months.
Ball-busting is a ritual and integral part of joining just about 99% of Fraternal organizations on the planet (yes, this community could be considered a fraternal organization). It weeds out the non-hackers and toughens the skin. It makes you learn to cope or leave.
It is NOT appealing to be crushed over and over again. There are very, very few people that will continue with something that they seem to suck at, no matter how much they may love the idea of the game itself. It flies in the face of human nature to posit that.
People will naturally be drawn to something that they feel they can be successful at. It's been proven a kajillion times and saying otherwise suggests a willful ignorance.
A fraternal organization could be considered a community but not all communities are fraternal organizations. Fraternal means exclusively male. Communities have women and children and teens as part of them. Your ball-busting will drive off all but the masochistic, chest thumping, males.
If these games appealed to women and other members of a real community, we'd have more guys drawn to it which would draw more females and the whole genre could be as successful as WoW. It doesn't because a few misogynists are bent on perpetuating their own, very limited, and ultimately very small world. Given the options between coping and leaving, the vast majority of the human race will leave. They have lives, and in those lives they have better things to do than deal with someone's misplaced hostility.
The game itself will provide sufficient challenges, it doesn't require additional malevolence as appeal.
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Dang Rapier, you bucking for my job or what?
Reading your posts almost reminds me of reading my own!
Anyway, to the point, couldn't agree more.
You nailed it right on the head.
Dunno who you are or where you came from but man I love hearing what your preaching!
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A couple of comments on these two parts of your post:
It is NOT appealing to be crushed over and over again. There are very, very few people that will continue with something that they seem to suck at, no matter how much they may love the idea of the game itself. It flies in the face of human nature to posit that.
The game itself will provide sufficient challenges, it doesn't require additional malevolence as appeal.
The comment 'go to the training arena' is often the best answer, and at the very least, sound advice. Trainers are much, much better equipped to get a newbie up to speed than the average pile-it in here. I guess what I'm trying to say is, not everybody is a good teacher.
I am a half-assed not-complete-idiot ingame. I can try to explain stuff to a newbie, but if they're operating on the 'point pipper at enemy plane' level of ACM, it's tough to know where to start. I'm not saying people shouldn't try to help, but saying 'I was able to get around on you because I used the vertical to high-yo and get around to where you were going to be with a lead turn.' Might well be about as intelligible to the guy as speaking in early, formal Latin to him. If someone hasn't got the frame of reference and the terminology down, it's pretty much gibberish.
Unsolicited advice is also going to quite often be taken in the wrong light, that too is human nature. You've just waxed a guy, and now you're telling him where he screwed up in a competitive game? That's going to bring hostility far more often than not. Wait to be asked, then pontificate on how you outmaneuvered him.
I do agree that additional malevolence doesn't do anything but tick people off.
However, being in the multiplayer arena here, people are playing to win, either for score, taking bases to win teh warz, to get some kills for fun, or whatever. The point is, when you're in the Main, people are generally throwing their best stuff at you. If you're new, you're going to get crushed on a regular basis. It's just the nature of the game. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that on a game design or community level. It just seems to me it's something that happens until the player learns how to avoid it. It's not a game on the level of console games, or mmorpgs, or other game types where things are to some degree balanced to be 'fair' and nothing bad ever happens to you. Upping under 30 enemy planes on a de-acked base is going to result in quick, immutable death, regardless of how many times you try it. There is such a thing as an unwinnable scenario in this game. It's part of what makes it fun, IMO.
Wiley.
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Thanks Ghost! That's quite a compliment coming from you. Much appreciated!
It's not my first rodeo :) I've been around gaming from the developer/publisher side for about 12 years but this is the stuff I love. It pains me to see air combat sims (and sims other than racing sims and shooters) being one of the few segments that keeps shrinking year by year when the rest of the game world is expanding like crazy.
The parts that ARE expanding are attracting more people by being more inclusive and tolerant of the new player. Yes, in many segments there are the trash talking chest thumpers (name which console shooter that is populated by 13 y/o trashtalkers? No fair if you have to guess more than 3 times :)) but these are self limiting.
There is no reason that this genre can't appeal to more people but we have to do our part. Think of it! For those folks that remember AW and the influx of "baby seals" that came in during the AOL hey days, this would make that look like a ghost town (no pun intended :)) but WE, meaning us, have to do it. This isn't something that HT or anyone can make happen, its a broad based decision that involves each player.
In answer to Wiley, yes, the best place to send them IS training. I'd humbly offer that if it were done in a friendly way, it increases the likelihood that the person would actually go there and get the help they need. I've witnessed a lot of brusque interactions that say basically,"I can't be bothered with noobs, please go away." Well guess what? They do.
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VonMessa, your reply was exactly what I was expecting. :)
Thanks for not surprising me :)
You made a couple of comments that I think lack support:
It is NOT appealing to be crushed over and over again. There are very, very few people that will continue with something that they seem to suck at, no matter how much they may love the idea of the game itself. It flies in the face of human nature to posit that.
People will naturally be drawn to something that they feel they can be successful at. It's been proven a kajillion times and saying otherwise suggests a willful ignorance.
A fraternal organization could be considered a community but not all communities are fraternal organizations. Fraternal means exclusively male. Communities have women and children and teens as part of them. Your ball-busting will drive off all but the masochistic, chest thumping, males.
If these games appealed to women and other members of a real community, we'd have more guys drawn to it which would draw more females and the whole genre could be as successful as WoW. It doesn't because a few misogynists are bent on perpetuating their own, very limited, and ultimately very small world. Given the options between coping and leaving, the vast majority of the human race will leave. They have lives, and in those lives they have better things to do than deal with someone's misplaced hostility.
The game itself will provide sufficient challenges, it doesn't require additional malevolence as appeal.
Im with VonMessa on this is part of overall experience.
Are they drawn to someone in a p51 picking and vulching them all night becasue they dont know any better. So after you picked the noob do you pm him and offer to help him not get picked in a fight or vulched. Or do you land your kills and think oh he will learn and if he doesnt then he deserves it.
As a noob if I got to choose again I would take all the bs on range and 200 and opt for not being vulched on a capped base 10 times in a row before my wheels are up. OR as im learning to fight get picked over and over again.
Even as a 5 year AHer is NOT appealing to get picked over and over and over by the same guy as you are fighting another con. Just so he can see his name in lights.
So my question is you say you dont type on range and crush someones spirit over and over again. DO YOU FLY the SAME WAY.
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Sonic, I'm more talking about what is the response when someone is asking for help.
I'm not advocating checking every kill's score to see if they are new or not. I don't know that and I don't check that. I don't assume they need help, even when they fly poorly.
On the other hand, when someone asks, its pretty clear they are making a request for help. That's where the interaction can be helpful.
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Your attempt at being coy notwithstanding, I appreciate the honesty and civility.
The standard response from me is still going to be, "Go ask a trainer"
There is nothing chest thumping about it. I am not a trainer. Period. If I was, I would have volunteered to be one.
I have a hard enough time keeping my crate in the air on my own.
You may take the liberty of substituting the words "online community" for fraternal organization. Throwing straw-men or arguing semantics, however amusing it may be, is making me want to yawn again and was not a point of the original debate.
Contrary to what you believe, there ARE those that take some pleasure in defeat, knowing that whatever is gained from the experience can be learned from and used to one's advantage in a future encounter
Do you fence as your moniker suggests? When one practices épée, instead of the foil, it becomes less restrictive as the "right of way" no longer exists and the area one has to defend is larger, a corps-à-corps (collision between fencers) is no longer penalized unless executed with intent to harm or if it is excessively violent. There are no restrictions on crossing of the feet or use of the flèche attack. In essence, it's more difficult, but the rewards are greater. One WILL eventually learn to defend against, or even defeat, an opponent with more skill. I would say that it is a great and fulfilling experience to land one's first touche on the teacher. Some folks refer to this as learning.
The reason people practice is to get better. Not everyone is born with every skill set, hence the reason to seek out a mentor.
Not everyone will take the easy way out, either. Denial of that fact also suggests willful ignorance I honestly wish more would not, but it seems that instant gratification is a sadly growing trend in today's world. If they can't win right away, they give up. If the philosophy of "People will naturally be drawn to something that they feel they can be successful at" were 100% true, then why do people climb mountains (we're not, as humans, built like a mountain goat), fly airplanes (we do not have wings), or run a marathon (a race in which the original runner died after finishing it)?
They do it for the challenge.
The do it because the rewards far outweigh the agony of the learning curve and the monotony of practice.
I just can't imagine that excelling at something that is easy can be rewarding, nor should the philosophy of "you should do <insert activity/occupation> because you are good at it" be perpetuated. Just because one is hung like a horse does not mean one should be a porn star.
I for one, prefer to be surrounded by those whose skill sets are better than my own. It forces me to be a better player.
I would hate to think that the measure of "success" for a company would be measured by the amount of warm bodies that they can populate an arena with.
I would also not participate in the reception line to shake HiTech's hand and say, "Congrats, Dale! You have attracted every unemployed, slack-jawed, mouth breather on the planet, WTG, you are now just like WoW!"
No thanks...........
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I remember getting ALT+F4'd, ahh. Good days, good days.
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This deep conversation needs........................ ... A few facts.....
Newbies are always needed. There is no other way to look at it. This game I love will not stay strong without new blood, new subscribers.
Squeakers on the other hand, deserve the ridicule that they receive. Simply because they squeak... And they have chosen the "hard way" to learn internet etiquette.
These two topics are completely separate.
With that said, I will say that all the ALTf4's should really calm down with that crap. So many of you auto-reply with ALTf4 for even the simplest, most innocent of questions.
And that hurts HTC. The last thing in the world any of us want to do is hurt HTC.
Everybody sits around the wishlist all day long, wishing for this, wishing for that, yet never realizing that the handful of people at HTC need to make all this stuff happen, not to mention, run a BBS, deal with all the back end game stuff, deal with processing payments, as well as invoices ( :salute Carrie :salute ) and deal with the 100 or so phone calls they get a day from our dumb arses.
And so HTC, as well as we, need those darn Newbies...... And we should treat them with a certain amount of respect. At least until they transition from Newb, to Noob....... :cheers:
:salute
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I welcome all the newcomers to the game, and I tend to treat folks with the same kindness and respect that they give others. Rapier, did you by chance run into JoeBlow from FA yet?
As far as the decline of the online flight sim. If it's in the decline as you say, I can't tell it. This game is the only online game I have ever played and it has continued to grow year after year. True that Warbirds, AirWarrior and FighterAce are no more, but for all I know it's due to poor management and lack of improvement to keep it's players interested. I think as long as people want to fly old war planes in a competitive setting these type of games will be out there. Heck, companies like Saitek and CH Products have a stake in this as well. If flight sims go belly up, so do they.
The Fighter Ace guys(with the exception of the one mentioned above) have all been quite knowledgeable, well mannered and competitive. Offering them a helping hand is a pleasure. The ones I've talked to seem to really like AcesHigh which makes me glad I picked the right game when I was searching for one.
Sure, they'll be picked at and made fun of for a while by some, but it's happened to all of us at one time or another. It's part of the fun and learning experience IMO.
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"Decline" isn't really the correct term. Fore it gives us a sense that we are no longer playing..............
It really is that there are less companies keeping their flight sims afloat. Which places a very strong implication on the actions of such companies as HTC.
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This deep conversation needs........................ ... A few facts.....
Newbies are always needed. There is no other way to look at it. This game I love will not stay strong without new blood, new subscribers.
Squeakers on the other hand, deserve the ridicule that they receive. Simply because they squeak... And they have chosen the "hard way" to learn internet etiquette.
These two topics are completely separate.
With that said, I will say that all the ALTf4's should really calm down with that crap. So many of you auto-reply with ALTf4 for even the simplest, most innocent of questions.
And that hurts HTC. The last thing in the world any of us want to do is hurt HTC.
Everybody sits around the wishlist all day long, wishing for this, wishing for that, yet never realizing that the handful of people at HTC need to make all this stuff happen, not to mention, run a BBS, deal with all the back end game stuff, deal with processing payments, as well as invoices ( :salute Carrie :salute ) and deal with the 100 or so phone calls they get a day from our dumb arses.
And so HTC, as well as we, need those darn Newbies...... And we should treat them with a certain amount of respect. At least until they transition from Newb, to Noob....... :cheers:
:salute
I dare you to find a screenie or instance of me giving the Alt-F4 response.
I have and always will reply with a "Go to the TA", "RTFM", or "Find a trainer"
Sure we need new blood. Every business does. It would be folly to think that HTC would not want to increase its customer base.
The very nature of flight simming requires multiple investments. Money (equipment, stick, pedals, track IR, etc) and time (to learn about the basics of flight, etc) Yes, I understand that you do not need fancy equipment, or even a stick. Yes, I know that so-and-so is a mouse flier that can pwn half the arena. This is the exception and not the rule.
The accuracy of the flight models in this game is what is appealing. Unfortunately, in the beginning, this means that it is not easy. I like to think of this as a filter for the "I want it now" gaming console lemmings looking for a quick fix.
The only way to "appeal to the masses", ala, WoW, would be to make this game more arcade-ish. I think that would ruin it for most folks.
Flight sims are a niche market. They always have and always will be until today's auto industry is replaced with personal aircraft. Not everyone is interested in flying or flight sims.
I believe that the business model that HTC follows right now will ensure their continued success.
A+ Customer service, from the CEO to the guy that changes the TP.
Prompt response to questions.
An accurate as possible flight model (which is always being tweaked to reflect this desire to be historically accurate)
A willingness to listen to the player base (within reason)
Giving the customer what they want (not what they ask for). The ability to accurately figure this out and know the difference between the two is what makes or breaks most companies.
Reasonable updates (but not constant ones interfering with the product everyday)
The willingness and integrity to admit when they are WRONG and the cajones to roll back to a different patch until they fix the bugs in the newest one rather than stick their fingers in their ears and say "We know what you are doing, we are the designers. You, the customer, are clueless and don't know as much as we do", which would be the standard response (if you even got a response) from most big gaming companies.
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I've been alt F4ed before. I never got pissed at HTC for that. I thought it was kind of funny after I realized my computer wasn't fubared :lol Ya have to be able to take a joke man. It's just harmless fun. No one gets hurt. If that's all it takes for someone to get pissed and quit the game, they won't be here long anyway, because Alt F4 is just the tip of the iceburg.
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I'm not attacking you Monseigneur Messa. And I'm not sure why anybody else would either..... All you said is a realistic interpretation of life on text channel.
I dare you to find a screenie or instance of me giving the Alt-F4 response.
But I will disagree, to an extent, about the "niche" thing. Since I was a child, the only thing I had ever wanted to do was fly. This game is now my outlet to such desire. And I have to believe that a good portion of the population, in any modern country, shares that aspiration. And thus, there will always be a need for a combat flight sim.
We just need to get rid of those other sims now!
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I'm not attacking you Monseigneur Messa. And I'm not sure why anybody else would either..... All you said is a realistic interpretation of life on text channel.
But I will disagree, to an extent, about the "niche" thing. Since I was a child, the only thing I had ever wanted to do was fly. This game is now my outlet to such desire. And I have to believe that a good portion of the population, in any modern country, shares that aspiration. And thus, there will always be a need for a combat flight sim.
We just need to get rid of those other sims now!
Monseigneur?
A priest? Me?
Hardly.......
Although I DID wear a black shirt and white priest's collar for my driver's license photo at the DMV one year :D
(yes I know it's not the same as Monsignor, but I'm not French :D )
As for the desire to fly? That's you. It's me. It's 99% of the folks that play this game. Some are actually pilots, and some of us are currently working on becoming a pilot. You can't say it's not a niche.
How much money have you spent to play this game over the years on subscription fees, computer upgrades, hardware, etc? Are all of your friends' computer rooms full of the same equipment? If you add upp all of the time and money you have invested in this game over the years, I'll bet you could have gotten your PPL by now :D
I can't say that for most anyone I know, personally. They think I'm crazy for being addicted to a "game".
They are the same ones that rush home from work in time to watch the playoffs, etc.
Hello, pot? This is the kettle................. :D
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"Decline" isn't really the correct term. Fore it gives us a sense that we are no longer playing..............
It really is that there are less companies keeping their flight sims afloat. Which places a very strong implication on the actions of such companies as HTC.
You have this completely backwards, there are less companies because of the declining interest in flight sims.
HiTech
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How do I take off? :noid
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I can agree with how you're seeing my comment... But let me flip it back the other way.... Your love Dale, not only for flight, but for this company you have brought up, will not decline (ie. your comments in you know you're addicted to AH when....) And therefore it can be assumed that as the FA & Warbirds continue to sink, you'll be able to add more members here. As such, decline can be viewed from an overall sense sure, but in the end, there will always be a need for at least 1 flight sim. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is be that sim!
Taking the convo out of MMORPG and into banks....... Lehman & Bear burned out and faded away.... Does that mean that people are less interested in investing? In banking? Perhaps their anxiety has increased but it won't stop investors.
FA going down, in many respects is exactly like the banking problem.... Lehman went bankrupt but Barclays Capital picked up their proprietary property and holdings, as did JP Morgan with Bear Stearns. WE are picking up FA players and making our game larger, more fruitful.
I look at the "decline" as a KOTH, not an end of the flight sim world....... WE JUST NEED TO BE ON TOP, or rather, you sir, need to keep us on top! And I have full faith that you can, and will! :salute
You have this completely backwards, there are less companies because of the declining interest in flight sims.
HiTech
Hit ALT-F4 dude!!! :lol
How do I take off? :noid
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How do I take off? :noid
I take off the same way I do everything else in AH, close my eyes and pray.
:)
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I've already talked to a few who are wondering why they did not come over sooner. Every one I have talked to loves AH.
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Great debate on this! And debate in a community is healthy.
Rather than try to answer each person individually, I'll just make this statement.
That we all love and enjoy this is not the question. The very fact that we are willing to debate it says that. The outline goes like this:
1. There is a problem, there are fewer people interested in and playing this genre of game.
2. Are you part of the PROBLEM or part of the SOLUTION?
My only point is that we, the people who benefit and enjoy this, should think about our actions and how they play into #2. If I reflect on my actions and they have served to drive people away, then I'm part of the PROBLEM. If I reflect on my actions and I've encouraged people to stick to the difficult but rewarding path of getting good at this, then I'm part of the SOLUTION.
BTW, VonMessa, I ONLY fence epee because it is the only weapon that has a realistic premise. :) I've been fencing and teaching epee for 25 years.
For all of you that have responded in any direction, THANKS for caring!
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I'm not sure why there is a debate going on here... If a new guy asks for help, you either help him or ignore him and go about your day. There's no need to slam him or give him false information just because some idiot once did it to you.
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If a new guy asks for help, you either help him or ignore him and go about your day. There's no need to slam him or give him false information just because some idiot once did it to you.
Amen ( or that's that )
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Sonic, I'm more talking about what is the response when someone is asking for help.
I'm not advocating checking every kill's score to see if they are new or not. I don't know that and I don't check that. I don't assume they need help, even when they fly poorly.
On the other hand, when someone asks, its pretty clear they are making a request for help. That's where the interaction can be helpful.
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Your screed wasnt missed by me!!!!
I am just trying to open up a much broader view point. We say ya this is how i make decisions is a good way to do it. Then we do the exact opposite when it comes to another aspect of the game. Im looking at the overall context. We can say hey its good to make decisions oneway but do another.
You dont need to look up score. If you consider yourself a helper to newcomer you can tell when you shot down "1890937" that he is a newb or the name youve never seen you know its a newb. Or the easiest is he just gets wheels up and takes no evasive action as you zoom in at 450 ias.
My point is I dont' believe HTC looses as many customers from the banter on 200. They expect it. 99% of the players here have played other online games with the same issuse. ( just so my point isnt missed I agree with you on your premise when someone askes for help lets all be more helpful ) or worse. I just believe there are other actions we do in game that make far more guys quit than the banter on 200.
I have always say "do what raises the level of play for everyone"
Its all well and good the help the new guy get his plane in the air. But then have the mentality that it is ok to abuse his lack of acm or sa is not ok with me and is part of the same package.
Example I upped last night at the first merge I was getting feedback that the guy might be really new. We went a few turns i shot him down. He had a handle ive never seen before. So I pm him ask if he is new or newer and if I can help just let me know. No response. Another con up shoot him down same guy. I could do it all night but I pm again no response so I leave the base and go to another. Ive been the new guy that wasnt comfortable with talking or asking for help on the text buffer.
I think Im saying if we want to really help we can be a bit more proactive to raise the overall level of game play.
Let the noob fight another noob to begin with the can go around 20 times haveing a hayday just to be simflying.
Raiper if I pm you and ask you to stop pickin me will you stop? Would you if the new guys asks you to stop?
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Your screed wasnt missed by me!!!!
If you consider yourself a helper to newcomer you can tell when you shot down "1890937" that he is a newb or the name youve never seen you know its a newb. Or the easiest is he just gets wheels up and takes no evasive action as you zoom in at 450 ias.
Its all well and good the help the new guy get his plane in the air. But then have the mentality that it is ok to abuse his lack of acm or sa is not ok with me and is part of the same package.
Example I upped last night at the first merge I was getting feedback that the guy might be really new. We went a few turns i shot him down. He had a handle ive never seen before. So I pm him ask if he is new or newer and if I can help just let me know. No response. Another con up shoot him down same guy. I could do it all night but I pm again no response so I leave the base and go to another. Ive been the new guy that wasnt comfortable with talking or asking for help on the text buffer.
I think Im saying if we want to really help we can be a bit more proactive to raise the overall level of game play.
Let the noob fight another noob to begin with the can go around 20 times haveing a hayday just to be simflying.
Raiper if I pm you and ask you to stop pickin me will you stop? Would you if the new guys asks you to stop?
:rofl what happened? did you get vulched by a 450 ias plane? maybe in your provided example, the "possibly new player" was unaware on how to reply since they are new and do not know the ins and outs of in game chat, in game text
looks as if you are taking the post a little too personal, back away from the keyboard :rofl
I'm not sure why there is a debate going on here... If a new guy asks for help, you either help him or ignore him and go about your day. There's no need to slam him or give him false information just because some idiot once did it to you.
purrfect Vudak :salute
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You have this completely backwards, there are less companies because of the declining interest in flight sims.
HiTech
In your opinion why do you think folks are losing interest in flight sims. I've always enjoyed the realism of this game and really don't understand the mass appeal for games like WoW, Halo or Quake. They just seem stupid to me.
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In your opinion why do you think folks are losing interest in flight sims. I've always enjoyed the realism of this game and really don't understand the mass appeal for games like WoW, Halo or Quake. They just seem stupid to me.
yeah me neither, I haven't really stuck at any games except for this one and warbirds. Everything else bores me to death.
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I can agree with how you're seeing my comment... But let me flip it back the other way.... Your love Dale, not only for flight, but for this company you have brought up, will not decline (ie. your comments in you know you're addicted to AH when....) And therefore it can be assumed that as the FA & Warbirds continue to sink, you'll be able to add more members here. As such, decline can be viewed from an overall sense sure, but in the end, there will always be a need for at least 1 flight sim. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is be that sim!
Taking the convo out of MMORPG and into banks....... Lehman & Bear burned out and faded away.... Does that mean that people are less interested in investing? In banking? Perhaps their anxiety has increased but it won't stop investors.
FA going down, in many respects is exactly like the banking problem.... Lehman went bankrupt but Barclays Capital picked up their proprietary property and holdings, as did JP Morgan with Bear Stearns. WE are picking up FA players and making our game larger, more fruitful.
I look at the "decline" as a KOTH, not an end of the flight sim world....... WE JUST NEED TO BE ON TOP, or rather, you sir, need to keep us on top! And I have full faith that you can, and will! :salute
Hit ALT-F4 dude!!! :lol
Your assumption that we will have more numbers if if WB goes down is not necessarily correct.We will pick up some customers temporally as FA closes, in reality almost every players have a limit on how long they will play, that means we have to continually replace leaving customers with new one. As the interest shrinks so does the number of new customers every day. Or a different way of looking at it the cost of acquisition (I.E. Advertising) increase per new customer.
There is an age old saying , the last thing you wish to be is the last man standing in a shrinking market.
Your assumption that just because I love my work we will be able to survive is not necessarily correct. A simple fact is a company can not operate at a loss. My love for flight is not what makes us survive, it simply helps make choices and design decisions that most players like.
Uptown:
1. I believe that age has a lot to do with it, this is only a guess but the number of people interested in flight and specifically wwii flight declines as we get further from the war. I.E. My father was in WWII in a sub, but people much younger then me don't have that connection and hence less people are interested in WWII.
2. The competition of online games continues to grow and the PC market shrinks. When I started in this business we were about the first game on the internet. Now how many MMO games are there?
HiTech
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HiTech,
The is only one MMO game to my way of thinking, and this is it. I tried some of the others and didnt like any of them.
SALUTE
Frank Williams
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Hey!!!, are you seriously suggesting that the guys that spend there time trying to make other people feel stupid should STOP? naaaa
Some of these guys require a daily dose of flame, or they will explode.
Please dont remove the only light in thier otherwise pathetic lives, it just aint right. :pray
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Blind Optimism I have for our future sir.
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I don't really think the optimism needs to be blind for a game like this.
The flight sim niche is definitely an oddity in the online gaming world. Most other game types are just going through the motions to 'finish' them. There is pretty much nothing stopping any person from doing everything in them other than time invested. Not so with the simulator and FPS market. To actually become good at a game like this versus most other games requires a level of skill and individual capability.
With most other MMO type games, you can read a guide that will tell you what to do and how to do it. 'Do this sequence of things, and you will stand the best chance of winning.' is all there is to it. There is a 'best way' of doing things that is easily repeatable by practically anyone who can read and press buttons on a keyboard.
In a game like this, you can read In Pursuit and whatever other books and guides you like and they will give you ideas. They will not allow you to execute on those ideas though, you need to put in the time to have the feel for the game and the SA to pull it off. Some people will be able to pull those ideas off better than others. You also can never have the same battle twice in a game like this.
It's a type of gaming that has become less popular in an age where games have become nearly impossible to 'lose'. I don't really think there is any equivalent competition for this game out there. There are plenty of other MMO games, but very very few comparably featured flight sims. This type of game I think will continue to have its niche appeal for quite some time.
I just don't really see the core idea behind this kind of gaming evolving much over time. WWI and WWII in particular were a time in aerial battle that will never again be duplicated. Air forces were a new thing, people were developing the tactics that will allow the best chance of victory. Both sides were in an arms race to develop better refined aircraft to fight with. Both world wars were the only time ever that two relatively evenly matched air forces were facing off against one another, with the people at the controls being the major deciding factor. Bombs were not 'smart', pilots were.
As the technology evolved the influence of the individual pilots became somewhat less. In modern combat you can see a dot on your radar over the horizon, push a button that sends a missile to obliterate it, and fly home. There is just not the same amount of satisfaction or gameplay to be had there as manually shooting an aircraft down within 600 yards with machine guns or cannons, or dropping dumb bombs on targets.
It's a scenario and style of game that is unique. There is no other online gaming experience that gives the same type of gameplay as a WWI/WWII flight simulator other than a WWI/WWII flight simulator.
Now, I can see it ultimately migrating platforms to the consoles. As long as I can hook my HOTAS, pedals and TrackIR up to my Xbox 1440 or whatever they're up to when it happens, I'm good with that.
Wiley.
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Great post Rapier! I've been pitching in on Channel 6 and will continue to help folks like Animal14's squaddies. As well as FA & WB folks.
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Your assumption that we will have more numbers if if WB goes down is not necessarily correct.We will pick up some customers temporally as FA closes, in reality almost every players have a limit on how long they will play, that means we have to continually replace leaving customers with new one. As the interest shrinks so does the number of new customers every day. Or a different way of looking at it the cost of acquisition (I.E. Advertising) increase per new customer.
There is an age old saying , the last thing you wish to be is the last man standing in a shrinking market.
Your assumption that just because I love my work we will be able to survive is not necessarily correct. A simple fact is a company can not operate at a loss. My love for flight is not what makes us survive, it simply helps make choices and design decisions that most players like.
Uptown:
1. I believe that age has a lot to do with it, this is only a guess but the number of people interested in flight and specifically wwii flight declines as we get further from the war. I.E. My father was in WWII in a sub, but people much younger then me don't have that connection and hence less people are interested in WWII.
2. The competition of online games continues to grow and the PC market shrinks. When I started in this business we were about the first game on the internet. Now how many MMO games are there?
HiTech
I respect your candor....and although I already knew all that.....it still makes me feel like crap reading it from you.
I still advise you to make some inquiries into seeing if there are any tv producers...cable or broadcast...that may be interested in producing a segment of you guys and what you do at home base...free advertising is the best kind.
it's easier than ever to pull this off too...there's tons of channels just looking for programing ideas.
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Great post Rapier! I've been pitching in on Channel 6 and will continue to help folks like Animal14's squaddies. As well as FA & WB folks.
good on you mate. animal 14 is a good guy.
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I still advise you to make some inquiries into seeing if there are any tv producers...cable or broadcast...that may be interested in producing a segment of you guys and what you do at home base...free advertising is the best kind.
it's easier than ever to pull this off too...there's tons of channels just looking for programing ideas.
...Program title suggestion- 'COAD'.
Wiley.
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My father was in WWII in a sub, but people much younger then me don't have that connection and hence less people are interested in WWII.
HiTech
which reminds me........I'd STILL dig an all-naval Areana.......with subs. (not to get into and drive...just shoot at)
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The good news is that WWII themed games CAN succeed, look at MOH and COD. FPS mechanics are fairly intuitive since most people know how to navigate by walking and shoot by pointing at things.
In our case, we have some particular paired weaknesses and strengths.
Weakness
Difficult and long learning curve
Strength
Satisfying and engaging for far longer than the usual 20-40 hours of most games
Weakness
Lack of support from community
Strength
Once engaged with the community, people will stay for years. Word of mouth, "viral" advertising is something that every game maker seeks and seldom can find. Reduces cost of acquisition that HT mentioned.
Weakness
High cost of game peripherals
Strength
Once purchased, gaming rigs last until invalidated by OS updates or break from extensive use.
Weakness
Multiple and complicated configurations of computers which make development and testing and upgrade paths unneccesarily complicated.
Strength
Configurability makes it possible to extend lifetime of computer.
This community is made up of a LOT of really smart folks. If we got our act together, it would be a fairly simple proposition to amplify these strengths. Folks, we are the glue that holds this together. If we actively look for the places where we can be the SOLUTION in this, we can change the face of gaming online. The Internet is rife with examples of communities pulling together to do some amazing things.
As HT said, the natural linkages to WWII are fading and what made these flight games the natural choice for MMOs in the 90s are fading as well. What it takes is to make an imaginative connection to new users. The strength of RPGs is that every bozo can be a hero, at least in their own minds. What it takes here, is for folks to see that they can be a hero of SKILL, not a hero made by treadmilling on levels and getting stuff that makes you more powerful.
In an RPG, time in game translates to more power. In this game, time in game translates to more SKILL and learning and true growth. This is the connection that the newbie often misses and could use our help to find.
Just a thought . . .
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The good news is that WWII themed games CAN succeed, look at MOH and COD. FPS mechanics are fairly intuitive since most people know how to navigate by walking and shoot by pointing at things.
CoD series have shown they can but there has also been an over saturation of WW2 games on the market and that has had an impact on WW2 games across the different genres.
In our case, we have some particular paired weaknesses and strengths.
Weakness
Difficult and long learning curve
Strength
Satisfying and engaging for far longer than the usual 20-40 hours of most games
The difficult learning curve is probably the #1 eliminator for most, especially with today's gamers. Remember, 'casual' gamers now make up the majority of gamers and they don't like spending XXX amount of hours learning to play a game. They'd rather be able to start it up and start playing immediately.
Weakness
Lack of support from community
Strength
Once engaged with the community, people will stay for years. Word of mouth, "viral" advertising is something that every game maker seeks and seldom can find. Reduces cost of acquisition that HT mentioned.
I have to disagree with the weakness or maybe it would help if you clarify what you mean by 'lack of support from the community." It's been my experience that niche games like Aces High tend to have a more cohesive community that rivals the bigger MMO's and in some cases are far better because the niche games tend to be more intimate due to the smaller size.
Weakness
High cost of game peripherals
Strength
Once purchased, gaming rigs last until invalidated by OS updates or break from extensive use.
You know, I really don't consider the cost of high end peripherals to be a weakness since they aren't required or even necessary to play. Sure, they make the game play easier and in some cases more immersive to the player thus increasing the fun factor but we have guys using mouses and $20 Wal-Mart joysticks with just as good affect as those with the higher end controllers.
Weakness
Multiple and complicated configurations of computers which make development and testing and upgrade paths unneccesarily complicated.
Strength
Configurability makes it possible to extend lifetime of computer.
That's a weakness inherent to any PC game. You'll see this issue with any game developed for the PC as opposed to those developed for a console.
This community is made up of a LOT of really smart folks. If we got our act together, it would be a fairly simple proposition to amplify these strengths. Folks, we are the glue that holds this together. If we actively look for the places where we can be the SOLUTION in this, we can change the face of gaming online. The Internet is rife with examples of communities pulling together to do some amazing things.
I agree to a point. I agree that the community is a major key to the success of any online game, whether it be a MMO or multiplayer like MW2, however, there is a limit on what a community can do. In my opinion, in terms of attracting new players, the best way to use the community to help attract new players is to use the community like a new housing development uses model homes and neighborhood to attract house buyers. That's how the community could best be served as a marketing tool to attract and retain new players.
As HT said, the natural linkages to WWII are fading and what made these flight games the natural choice for MMOs in the 90s are fading as well. What it takes is to make an imaginative connection to new users. The strength of RPGs is that every bozo can be a hero, at least in their own minds. What it takes here, is for folks to see that they can be a hero of SKILL, not a hero made by treadmilling on levels and getting stuff that makes you more powerful.
While I do agree that over time WW2 has started to fade from our memories which has resulted in less interest but I don't consider it to be the primary reason for the declining interest in WW2 games. Industry market studies have shown the primary reason for the decline of WW2 games isn't due to flagging interest in the period but an over saturation of the market place. There was a time just a year or two ago in which the majority of the first person shooters were WW2 themed games, same with the RTS titles. One of the major points of criticism with Call of Duty: World at War wasn't that it was a bad shooter, but rather was another WW2 shooter.
In an RPG, time in game translates to more power. In this game, time in game translates to more SKILL and learning and true growth. This is the connection that the newbie often misses and could use our help to find.
Just a thought . . .
You've actually touched on one thing the MMORPG players and us have in common...the time and patience to put into the game and improve, whether in the case of the MMORPG player, to improve their character or in our case, our skills. We need to figure out a way to keep the 'casual' player interested long enough that he stops being a casual player and becomes an addicted player like ourselves.
ack-ack
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You've actually touched on one thing the MMORPG players and us have in common...the time and patience to put into the game and improve, whether in the case of the MMORPG player, to improve their character or in our case, our skills. We need to figure out a way to keep the 'casual' player interested long enough that he stops being a casual player and becomes an addicted player like ourselves.
ack-ack
I wonder if a relaxed realism arena would be the end of the world. Hit bubbles, no black/red outs, stall limiter on forever... Do you think it would bring in enough extra income to cover Skuzzy's combat pay for dealing with all the extra BBS drama it caused? They seemed pretty popular back in the day (I'm guessing you have a better take on what the numbers were).
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I wonder if a relaxed realism arena would be the end of the world. Hit bubbles, no black/red outs, stall limiter on forever... Do you think it would bring in enough extra income to cover Skuzzy's combat pay for dealing with all the extra BBS drama it caused? They seemed pretty popular back in the day (I'm guessing you have a better take on what the numbers were).
I think it would bring in new customers but enough that it would have an impact? Not sure because I'd venture to say that the majority that would be in the RR arenas are already subscribers and the influx of new players would probably be not all that significant of an increase.
ack-ack
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As HT said, the natural linkages to WWII are fading and what made these flight games the natural choice for MMOs in the 90s are fading as well.
then why the WW1 arena? and....
...are Korea MIG Alley or Vietnam F105 arenas on the horizon?
(I'm down with that...once of course...we get our WW2 all-naval Arena, that is.)