Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Dawger on May 27, 2010, 12:50:32 PM
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The number one reason folks get in a "Head On" situation is because they are actively pursuing a head on situation.
If both pilots are pulling for a guns solution, the end result is what is commonly called a HO.
Turning the "HO" against the other guy is a simple attitude change. Beat the other guy by flying and only use the guns to let him know he lost.
Here is the Dawger method for teaching yourself to avoid the HO and turn it to your advantage if you can't get with a trainer that can teach the techniques required.
Step 1: Takeoff
Step 2: Fire all of your guns until they are empty
Step 3: Go find a fight and fly your best game with the knowledge that you can't shoot him.
Rinse and repeat until the only bullets that hit you are after you have have blown all your energy and are down on the deck with no more options.
It works like a charm if you have the balls to do it.
You will learn that if you concentrate on avoiding the other guys guns and work for a position to safely shoot him that the Head On/Front quarter shot is easily avoided.
Once you develop the attitude of fly first/ shoot later then you can fly with ammo in the can and score some kills.
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that is genius dawger.
A couple of runs with no ammo to spray might help change ones flying style forever.
Guys are much easier to hit from 200 dead 6. Some people wonder how many kills you can get from one run. It is just as you describe. Closer you are the more chance of hitting, less ammo required per kill.
Sadly I think people just accept the fact that they will never be a true "ace" so just succumb to taking any shot they can manage. :(
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Similar thing when you run out of bullits and have to acm your way back to base.
I like the auger kill the best, the earth works well as one shot one kill. and does it count as a HO if he hits the dirt face first :devil
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Similar thing when you run out of bullits and have to acm your way back to base.
I like the auger kill the best, the earth works well as one shot one kill. and does it count as a HO if he hits the dirt face first :devil
"....that damn ground just HO'ed me..."
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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If your going to do that you might as well fly the D3a1 val. With 2 .30 cal forward firing guns your not exactly a threat.
However if you ping them once before you fly them into the ground you'll get the kill. Plus the guns can be
used to distract the other pilot, rattle his cage etc. They really won't do much damage, not unless you have 5 minutes of uninterrupted fire time.
But hey it flys like a champ, is amazing in the vertical, floats like a butterfly, stings, well like a very small ant, not a bee.
But nothing is perfect.
Fly the Val, learn to avoid the HO shot, use the vertical, setup good merges.
I've been trying to encourage new guys to make it their plane of choice for as long as we've had it.
But it just doesn't seem to catch on.
Still trying though. If the A6m is a knife fight in a phone booth then a Val fight would be razor blades in a suitcase.
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Ghost,
I agree completely but favor the SBD. It offers significant firepower if the shot is well constructed combined with pure turn performance about equal to the A6M2. In order to keep the gerbils running you need to fly it primarily in the verticals. Its very possible to maintain 1/1 or better K/D ratio in the MA's in an SBD...
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Well Humble the SBD suits your skill level. :) It takes a really good stick to win in that bird.
D3a1 is a lot more forgiving in some respects, although not nearly as tough as the SBD.
Still the point is, if you really want to learn how to fly, and not depend on your guns to survive.
Pick a plane like the D3a1 or the SBD and just fly it for a tour or 2. (if your ego can stand it)
You'll learn tons.
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I Like Ghosth's suggestion.
+ the satisfaction of landing multiple kills with the D3A every once in a while will surely boost your confidence, especially if they are clean kills. And since it can be taken up from a CV, some travel times are not that long to bomb a couple of GVs and return safely (which will be a hard thing to do... D3A is as attractive as a low bomber approaching a CV target.)
Everything happens twice as fast in such a ride. Your SA must be top notch (thanks to external view) and your altitude very precious. So faster, heavier birds will be a piece of cake if you can master one of the slowest planes in the game. A6M2, SBD, Hurri1, 109E, SpitI all fall into that category IMO. Its good for patience, raw practice, humility, and perks ;)
Actually... that makes me want to try it again :rolleyes:
Although this tread is about avoiding the HO in order to become a better stick, relieving your plane of ammo is as much a drastic measure as flying hardcore Late Arena planes like the D3A.
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Worst thing you can do is fly in external views, IMO it seriously compromises your ability to accurately judge angle off and relative lift vector orientation.
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A stuka is fun to!!!
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relative lift vector orientation.
Can you explain this terminology please.
I have learnt what lift vector is. If I understand it correctly , it is directly upwards. If I Look straight up when in the cockpit, my lift vector is pointing to the centre of the screen.
I think I understand angle off. This is the angle drawn from the imaginary centre line
running nose to tail of an enemy plane.
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It's important to understand how your planes performance matches up with your opponents and your position relative to his strength (or weakness). Here is a relatively simple example, if I'm in an SBD fighting a spitfire I've got a smaller turn radius but less power. So while its possible for me to cut inside his arc it's also possible for him to fly a wider circle that covers more degree's per second or to switch to a climbing turn that the SBD can not duplicate. So if we're engaged in a flat turn and my lift vector is in plane it's more then likely that I'm scrubbing E & losing angles. If I have altitude to work with a nose down low to high yoyo may allow me to manipulate my E state enough to apply pressure (ping him a time or two) to force an error. The better the pilot the less likely he is to fly in the pure horizontal or vertical as he looks to achieve an optimum blend in relation to his relative position to his opponent and his objective.
This film might help. It illustrates a lot of stuff thats referred to in the other HO clip. One of the hardest things for a newer pilot to grasp is how to judge which shots to take and which shots to pass on. Sadly a lot of people who should know better don't help with idiotic comments like this one...
If you put yourself in front of the other guy's guns you deserve to get shot.
It is that simple.
The reality is that very often you put yourself in front of the other persons guns in order to begin the process of killing them. Every good reverse begins with some sort of opening gambit that is based on enticing a poor decision from the victim. In many instances this is followed up by "no way your X can out turn my Y" or " I was going X fast and you pulled a 180 and caught me you #$#$". Most of this goes back to understanding the concept of relative lift vector's and in and out of plane maneuvering.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf)
Here is an SBD clip that shows some stuff as well...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBDinthemorning.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBDinthemorning.ahf)
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that is genius dawger.
A couple of runs with no ammo to spray might help change ones flying style forever........
So does flying a Hurri 1 for a complete tour. :D
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I actually had some pretty serious fun last month (?) flying the C47 purely for dogfighting. I was amazed at how well it maneuvers, and how long I could stay alive even against multiple opponents.
I admit though, I was trying to ram folks; but even when I got behind them I couldn't keep up. I intended to just try it for a hop, but it was so much fun I kept at it for a while. Our field was partially capped, so just getting clear of the ack was challenging, lol!
Saber was still flying his F4U, and when he'd get slow (I remember one fight where he was on the deck vs 2) I had a blast chasing his opponents around and distracting them! He eventually died, and then I did too, but it was quite a long fight, lol!
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i did something like this to become a better shot, i shot all the .303s in my mossie and waited until i only had 100 cannon left, my goal was to get 5 kills with that 100 rounds. I finally did after a couple weeks, and my hit percentage went up dramatically
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I like the hog. Been flying a variant of it since day 1. Started with the -1 died a lot from stalls when I got slow. It has good firepower BnZ and turn fights well and is fast enough to leave the great turning a/c behind. Everyone should learn to fight in the Hog
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My regular students all know the mantra......
Out fly the other guy and then use the guns to let him know he lost the fight.
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When you pull the trigger because you are bored or feel sorry for the guy trapped in your 12 o'clock you may be ready for the next lesson.
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When you pull the trigger because you are bored or feel sorry for the guy trapped in your 12 o'clock you may be ready for the next lesson.
Putz
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i did something like this to become a better shot, i shot all the .303s in my mossie and waited until i only had 100 cannon left, my goal was to get 5 kills with that 100 rounds. I finally did after a couple weeks, and my hit percentage went up dramatically
Now empty all your cannons and get 5 kills with the 303's. will be a bit tougher
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Nrshida told me about this . We call it the crucible . DA during peak times is great place for it .
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Oh the fun times of chasing things around with no ammo. Gets really interesting once they figure it out. I think I chased a 190 A5 for 5 minutes after he figured out I was of ammo in my A20. I didn't dare try to escape or go anywhere except on his 6, or I was dead. Eventually a friendly came down and killed him but it was a lot of fun. Then there was the FSO where I chased around an Ki84 with my LA-5 with no ammo to save a squaddie's B25's, till I finally got a clean escape, and he gave up just before I ran out of gas. Agreed that this will force you to get some good ACM time in but, it's probably easier to spend time with a trainer for a bit :aok
:salute
BigRat
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Yes BR,I remember flying the B25 when you chased that 84 and you had no ammo!! :rofl :rofl
:salute
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Oh the fun times of chasing things around with no ammo. Gets really interesting once they figure it out. I think I chased a 190 A5 for 5 minutes after he figured out I was of ammo in my A20. I didn't dare try to escape or go anywhere except on his 6, or I was dead. Eventually a friendly came down and killed him but it was a lot of fun. Then there was the FSO where I chased around an Ki84 with my LA-5 with no ammo to save a squaddie's B25's, till I finally got a clean escape, and he gave up just before I ran out of gas. Agreed that this will force you to get some good ACM time in but, it's probably easier to spend time with a trainer for a bit :aok
:salute
BigRat
**********DISCLAIMER: I am not an AH Trainer.**************
I will always say spending time with a trainer is a better option.
But I've had several students that absorbed all the avoiding and taking advantage of the HO lessons and flew tremendous in a training setting but couldn't apply it in the arena.
It is an attitude issue. In the training setting the ego component disappears after a while. The student stops worrying about everything except the lesson. Once those very same students got back into a "live" arena they quickly fell back into the old habit of what I call "Kodak Instamatic" flying. They had an ad campaign a long time ago encouraging the buyer to "just point and shoot".
That is the style of flying that most players use. They are flying the guns. The end result is a lot of jousting and a lot of folks flying around in weird airplanes simply for the gun package and the ability to point it.
When you see guys regularly flying around dog fighting in Stukas, Il2, A20, B25 and even the Hurri II, 110 or mossie it isn't from some desire to seek the ultimate challenge. It is because those airplanes offer the opportunity for one shot kills if they can get the victim to pass in front of the guns. I'm not saying every pilot that flies one of these types is doing that but there are always a few guys in games of this type that gravitate to the big guns on slow airplanes because it is easier to sucker a few unsuspecting players into dying in front of the gun package.
If you find yourself pressing for a gun solution at the expense of aircraft performance you are falling victim to this trap of flying the guns. I do it myself more often than I like. It is an issue that requires discipline. It is difficult to restrain oneself from shooting.
How do you know when to shoot and when not to?
If you are involved in a true angles fight that is basically neutral or maybe even you have gained a slight angles advantage taking a front quarter shot is usually a mistake to take the shot.
Here is why. In order to take a shot you have to aim. Aiming means relaxing the pull even for a split second. If you are max performing the airplane in this fight this split second relaxation of max performance is going to give your opponent angles because he will still be max performing his aircraft.
This is how two perfectly matched aircraft with two pilots matched in skill can appear to be a tremendously different skill levels. It is in the attitude. If you stay disciplined in a maximum performance fight and stay out of the bandit cone of fire while constantly working to gain angles you will always win over the guy always pulling for the shot or even over the guy who occasionally tries a shot in the multiple front quarter pass fight. Learning the discipline to do that in an arena is a difficult thing to do and requires some effort.
So if you find yourself flying disciplined with your trainer but reverting to "Kodak Instamatic " mode in the arena, empty those guns or fly something that requires a long burst on target to kill with.
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My regular students all know the mantra......
cool Dawger, did not know you had become an AH trainer. what times do you train in the Training Arena?
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cool Dawger, did not know you had become an AH trainer. what times do you train in the Training Arena?
Sorry. I should be more clear. I am not an AH trainer. I was a trainer in another game for many years and continue to train with members of my squad or others that request it.
I apologize for the error in communication.
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Dawger mostly I agree with you, all too often people just want a fast plane with good guns rather than actually learn to fly.
However in the choice of planes that you used to illustrate your point was not in my opinion the common variety used by those who's primary goal is to get guns on in any way possible.
" Stukas, Il2, A20, B25 and even the Hurri II, 110 or mossie"
My list would read more like N1k2, Hurri II, 190, followed by the 110 and the mossie.
Stukas, iL2, A20, B25 for the most part do not have the speed to deal with the rest of the late war crowd.
Granted there are some who dogfight in the A20, but I would say they have plenty of ACM on the ball.
I would never put them in the same category of those who just look for a shot.
As for the iL2 and the B25h, while they do have very good guns, they are also easy meat for anyone who can fly.
I see them most used for ground attack, and given the choice between dieing, and getting a nose around for a shot, well, I for one don't blame them for trying for the shot. Indeed would do so myself in that situation.
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I agree with you, Ghost but no one is fooled by a Nik or 190 into thinking "EZ target".
There are a few players that use the almost automatic assumption that the Stuka/Il2/A20/B25 is an EZ target to lull the opponent into complacency just long enough to get guns on target. They exist in AH as well as in the other games I've been involved with.
The true fighters with massive guns don't promote that same sense of complacency in my opinion. In fact, I would argue much the opposite. I know my first thought when facing a 190 is never get anywhere near the front quarter. There are plenty of guys in game that can execute incredible snapshots in the 190.
Discipline in avoiding giving the other guy a gun solution has a lot to do with perception of the threat. That is why I use the list I use but, of course, one must assume any heavy gunned aircraft is being flown by someone willing to bet the bank on the "point and shoot".
Maybe the best policy is to treat every opponent like he is flying around with one shot one kill magic weapon and act accordingly.
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Last line is the best.
Assume if they can they will and set them up accordingly.
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Agreed also with the last line. I've known guys who will set up for 'letting the other guy get a poor snapshot on them' so they can set up for a full burst to get the kill. Quite often when the opponent is using 303s or 50s, rarely against cannon-equipped aircraft. I just can't fathom letting the enemy shoot you enroute to setting them up. IMO you should never voluntarily put yourself in a position where the enemy has a gun solution on you. Far too easy to lose a critical part.
Sometimes it's unavoidable, but in my opinion it shouldn't be part of the plan unless something has gone quite wrong.
Wiley.
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The issue here is the assumption of control of circumstances. Most of the time this type of discussion almost seems predicated on having the upper hand. Not letting the other guy shoot at you is a bit of a no-brainer if you're in an advantageous position. I always felt my primary job (back when I was a trainer here) was to help players move beyond circumstance and reach a point where they could be competitive (within reason) regardless of plane type or initial positioning. It is not possible to entirely deny your opponent a shot window when maneuvering from a position of inferiority so the key concept is in manipulating that shot window to the degree possible to facilitate a more favorable outcome. Under those circumstances you need to give a little to hopefully gain a lot. Once you reach a certain comfort level initial positioning (or plane match up) isn't as big a factor as the relative skill level of the other guy.
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In online flying games there is immediate reinforcement of bad behaviors and habits.
From the first sortie the guns are available.
In the real world a pilot goes through an extended period before he ever gets anywhere near pulling a trigger.
Starting from primary flight training the military pilot is building skills that have nothing to do with shooting but everything to do with winning the fight.
Formation flying is the basic laboratory for building an understanding of the geometry of the fight.
Every fight is an exercise in trying to join into formation on the target or prevent the enemy from joining in formation on you.
In the real world, the neophyte is given a target that is not maneuvering to deny him. He learns spatial relationships and techniques on a target that is actively helping him solve his distance and closure problems. Later the target is not actively helping or hurting. Only after the student has mastered formation joins from every angle on a friendly is he thrown into the pit with a target seeking to deny him his solution.
In online gaming a training structure that recognizes this fact greatly aids the student. Since we don't have friendly collision we don't have to get very deep into formation technique but a student that cannot effectively join on a non maneuvering target needs to hone those skills before embarking on an attempt to do the same against a maneuvering bandit.
It is a solid base to build on and should be the first step in evaluating a new trainee.
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Then how come so many of your "students" fall back into bad habits so quickly?
The real issues here are simple...
1) Pilots with minimal plane handling skills need to evolve those skills (most of Primary and basic IRL). This can be handled in conjunction with step 2 most of the time.
2) Pilots need to gain a fundamental understanding of prosecuting a +E attack conceptually. This is best established by simply having the student grab his favorite ride and a suitable altitude advantage and having at it. As a general rule it takes all of 5 to 10 minutes to gain an initial evaluation and begin to make positive adjustments. Some players have very basic issues and others are very adept at managing all aspects of the attack, most fall somewhere under the middle of the bell shaped curve. Most students I work with make a quantum leap within 45 minutes or so and have a much better grasp conceptually of what they want to accomplish and how.
3) Learning how to "attack" gives a significant overview of how to defend. While it is much much easier to learn the 1st I usually see significant gains in the 2nd. Normally the single biggest conceptual challenge is vertical out of plane maneuvering combined with E management. Getting a student to shed E quickly and limit extensions by working more aggressively in the verticals often involves a "show and tell" at some point where we switch roles. Once they see a properly flown +E attack within there new frame of reference quite often the light bulb goes on and they then make a quantum leap offensively.
I have no clue why you feel a drawn out and formal structure would be beneficial to anyone with more then a month or two in the game.
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Oh the fun times of chasing things around with no ammo. Gets really interesting once they figure it out. I think I chased a 190 A5 for 5 minutes after he figured out I was of ammo in my A20. I didn't dare try to escape or go anywhere except on his 6, or I was dead. Eventually a friendly came down and killed him but it was a lot of fun. Then there was the FSO where I chased around an Ki84 with my LA-5 with no ammo to save a squaddie's B25's, till I finally got a clean escape, and he gave up just before I ran out of gas. Agreed that this will force you to get some good ACM time in but, it's probably easier to spend time with a trainer for a bit :aok
:salute
BigRat
Has happened more than a few times, i've run dry of ammo because I am the worlds worst shot, and usually i also decide, that the only way to stay alive is to stick on the guys 6 and hope he augers trying to get you off. But in doing this I have repeated perfect firing solutions, over and over, where had i saved 10 cannon rounds I could shoot the guy down easily. :furious