Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: dhart on June 09, 2010, 12:09:08 PM

Title: P-51 gunsight
Post by: dhart on June 09, 2010, 12:09:08 PM
Didnt the Mustang have a lead computing gunsight? If I remember right it did. Why not put one in the pony in the main arena?
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Soulyss on June 09, 2010, 12:15:53 PM
Some P-51's did have a lead computing gun sight (model K-14 I believe).  It was a gyroscopic based system that was in effect a mechanical computer.  It required data input by the pilot in order to calculate the correct range to the target.  The gyroscope also had a tendency to tumble during any sort of maneuver that led many pilot to simple "cage" it and use it as a fixed sight. 

Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Chalenge on June 09, 2010, 04:19:06 PM
Its a late war product that not all aircraft had initially. I would love to spend some perks on it though!  :D
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 09, 2010, 04:37:53 PM
AW had the K-14 gunsight, well, at least the Kesmoid's version of it.


ack-ack
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: SgtPappy on June 09, 2010, 05:01:02 PM
I think the P-47N and P-51D in-game have a K-14 gunsight system clearly installed.

Too bad we can't actually use it though.

Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Karnak on June 09, 2010, 05:03:42 PM
Spitfire XIV and XVI as well as Tempest had lead computing sites too.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: dhart on June 09, 2010, 05:39:30 PM
Well since we all agree that they were around back in the day, why not use them on the planes that had them? We have something like it in the training arena where you can have a marker identify where to fire, just put it in the planes that used it.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Soulyss on June 09, 2010, 05:52:05 PM
*edit*

N/M.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Bronk on June 09, 2010, 06:38:27 PM
*edit*

N/M.

good call.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: AAJagerX on June 09, 2010, 06:39:22 PM
I can't imagine that it'd be very useful in game with the wacky maneuvering that goes on.  I may be wrong though.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: AirFlyer on June 09, 2010, 08:19:59 PM
Well since we all agree that they were around back in the day, why not use them on the planes that had them? We have something like it in the training arena where you can have a marker identify where to fire, just put it in the planes that used it.

It's no where close to that useful, if it was do you think pilots of have locked it to a fixed position?
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Karnak on June 09, 2010, 08:59:01 PM
It's no where close to that useful, if it was do you think pilots of have locked it to a fixed position?
It was useful.  In the Spitfire IX squadron that first tested it, accuracy went up a lot, but you are absolutely correct that it was nothing like the training tool.  In AH we just don't have the mechanisms in place to model it, and even if we did our maneuvering is way more extreme than it would work with in most cases.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Flayed on June 09, 2010, 09:10:54 PM
  I think it would just take some of the skill and fun out of the game. Besides P51's an Spits are already so easy to fly and kill things in who needs a fancy gun sight. :headscratch:
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Chalenge on June 09, 2010, 09:21:58 PM
It was useful.  In the Spitfire IX squadron that first tested it, accuracy went up a lot, but you are absolutely correct that it was nothing like the training tool.  In AH we just don't have the mechanisms in place to model it, and even if we did our maneuvering is way more extreme than it would work with in most cases.

So what your saying is that cartoon pilots maneuver harder than pilots that had their lives on the line? WOW!  :D
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Tupac on June 10, 2010, 12:55:53 AM
So what your saying is that cartoon pilots maneuver harder than pilots that had their lives on the line? WOW!  :D

when your in a cartoon plane you dont feel the g forces. We turn our planes to their structural limits, they turned theirs to their physical ability
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Chalenge on June 10, 2010, 04:00:00 AM
Well then maybe we should all be issued G-suits like the late war 51s to go with the K-14. I believe they used them in P-47s and F4Us also so it would not be unigue to one airplane at all. Just no stinking darkside planes with K-14s!  :D
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: vonKrimm on June 10, 2010, 03:14:49 PM
Well since we all agree that they were around back in the day, why not use them on the planes that had them? We have something like it in the training arena where you can have a marker identify where to fire, just put it in the planes that used it.

Yup, give us little green cross hairs that show where the bullets will end-up.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Infidelz on June 10, 2010, 06:04:37 PM
Seems like it would be useful on snap shots. We are not always turning the airframe to the limit. Some times we are just a little out of plane. 

Since it was used in the war I don't see how an argument can be made against it unless of course you are just all about arguing. 

Infidelz
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Chalenge on June 10, 2010, 06:55:46 PM
Oh I can imagine people will complain about anything... like larger fuel tanks (actually used)... napalm... delayed fuses... you get the idea.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: TequilaChaser on June 10, 2010, 07:10:19 PM
Yup, give us little green cross hairs that show where the bullets will end-up.

I thought that feature didn't come along until we had guided missles on fighter/attack aircraft with lock-on guided mechanisms ????

is dhart saying they had this back in the days of WWII, vonKrimm? 

the reason you have this feature in the Training Arena and also in offline mode, is because it is a "Training Feature"  to help teach people the effects of trajectory arcing of ammunition or ordinance

training, practicing, etc using this will help your memory when playing in the regular arenas

hope this helps...
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 10, 2010, 07:21:48 PM
I thought that feature didn't come along until we had guided missles on fighter/attack aircraft with lock-on guided mechanisms ????

is dhart saying they had this back in the days of WWII, vonKrimm? 

the reason you have this feature in the Training Arena and also in offline mode, is because it is a "Training Feature"  to help teach people the effects of trajectory arcing of ammunition or ordinance

training, practicing, etc using this will help your memory when playing in the regular arenas

hope this helps...


Gyro gunsight (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=160621&sid=51c60b7d43f1923c2bb9a94c598a6ff1)

You needed to know what type of aircraft you were firing at (wingspan) so you could dial in the range.

Quote
The K-14, MK. 18 (USN version), and Ferranti (British version) gyro computing gunsights used a gyro to measure rate of turn to give a lead compensation which was applied to the reflector gunsight. The pilot preset the gunsight with the wingspan of the target. He then used a twist knob on the throttle handle which would adjust the size of a sighting ring (reflected on the sighting panel) called a reticule (this varied in layout, but usually consisted of six diamond shapes) to the target wingspan. The further away the target, the smaller the ring. Matching the ring size to the target wingspan gave the range, which was fed into the analog computer to give the required lead compensation. When the target was in the ring the guns were aimed where the target would be when the bullets got to the targeted range.

So to use the system, the pilot put the ring on the target and held it there while shooting. It eliminated guessing how much lead was required - most pilots tended to grossly underestimate the required lead.

By Korea the human element had been removed, instead of twisting a knob a radar ranging system input the distance component.

Note: when engaging in aerobatics the gyro's needed to be caged. If the pilot forgot to do so the system would be damaged and useless. When the gyros were caged, the system acted as a simple reflector gunsight. So the pilot had to be well trained to cage and uncage the gyros during combat.

Interesting anecdote. in Korea, flying F-86's, Francis Gabreski ignored the gyro sight and aimed with a piece of chewing gum he stuck on the windshield.


wrongway
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Baumer on June 10, 2010, 10:36:07 PM
I don't see how this could be effectively implemented with the current icon information. As AWwrgwy stated, the key feature of the K-14 was to twist the throttle to get the proper sight ring around the target. With the range information currently in the icon, AND an adjustable sight ring, that would give you a sight like on a F-100, radar accurate range + lead computing (Not very realistic) for WW2 K-14.

So the only other option I can think of would be to add the K-14 (to the planes that had it in combat). Then add an analog control input, to make the ring bigger or smaller. Then remove the range info from the enemy icons (but only when you are in a K-14 equipped airplane).

I don't think many people would like the extra hassle, but who knows.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: vonKrimm on June 11, 2010, 12:42:48 AM
I thought that feature didn't come along until we had guided missles on fighter/attack aircraft with lock-on guided mechanisms ????

is dhart saying they had this back in the days of WWII, vonKrimm? 

the reason you have this feature in the Training Arena and also in offline mode, is because it is a "Training Feature"  to help teach people the effects of trajectory arcing of ammunition or ordinance

training, practicing, etc using this will help your memory when playing in the regular arenas

hope this helps...

No, I am suggesting what we might see in-game if LCGs were introduced.  We already know the ranges enemy a/c are at; do we really need to push a button every time we want our LCG to function?  Would it not just be reasonable that LCG equipped a/c get a little green cursor, ala the TA, to simulate the use of said LCG?  Also, the little green cursor goes away when certain flight parameters are exceeded and returns when the a/c returns within set parameters.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Ghosth on June 11, 2010, 06:58:56 AM
I have to agree with Baumer.

If you want the LCGS then you'd have to give up range info.
And you'd have to accept the pain that comes when you maneuver just before a shot and the sight tumbles.
Leaving you with no shot.

Set it up with what they actually had, ie est range, inability to maneuver, and you'll find it is more hindrance than help to most folks.

Its a lot of extra coad and fuss to give you something you can teach yourself to do better in half an hour in the TA.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 11, 2010, 11:49:08 AM
No, I am suggesting what we might see in-game if LCGs were introduced.  We already know the ranges enemy a/c are at; do we really need to push a button every time we want our LCG to function?  Would it not just be reasonable that LCG equipped a/c get a little green cursor, ala the TA, to simulate the use of said LCG?  Also, the little green cursor goes away when certain flight parameters are exceeded and returns when the a/c returns within set parameters.


But the "little green cursor" does not represent how a WW2 gyro sight actually worked.  It is more how a modern lead computing, radar guided sight functions.

Apples and coconuts.


wrongway
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Chalenge on June 11, 2010, 04:10:21 PM
I have to agree with Baumer.

If you want the LCGS then you'd have to give up range info.
And you'd have to accept the pain that comes when you maneuver just before a shot and the sight tumbles.
Leaving you with no shot.

Set it up with what they actually had, ie est range, inability to maneuver, and you'll find it is more hindrance than help to most folks.

Its a lot of extra coad and fuss to give you something you can teach yourself to do better in half an hour in the TA.

And I can imagine it would leave the people with low end systems unable to even use the thing because of all the extra code (not that I actually know that). What we have right now is fine especially if you have younger eyes and a big screen.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Ghosth on June 12, 2010, 06:18:25 AM
Actually I forgot, that if you set the wing size ring for a 109, and dialed in a p38, you'd miss, as the wing size is wrong.

Way I figure it, this is a whine machine.
And I just don't see HT taking the time to coad something that is just going to create more whine.
Title: Re: P-51 gunsight
Post by: Baumer on June 12, 2010, 11:10:37 AM
And don't forget about this, there were versions of the K-14 for bomber turrets that were used as well.

The K series gyro sights were fitted and used in combat by B-17's, B-24's, and (Maybe) B-26's. Can you imagine the complaints about that!