Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lilsquid on June 10, 2010, 01:59:19 PM
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This Forum Post goes over the "Fundamentals" of Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM). This is for any pilot who might need a little extra help with their "Moves" i should say. This is not Just WW2 Tactics it talks about missile attacks which might come in handy in another game so you might want to read it.
The Break
This is used when an attacker is first seen or is already in the cone of vulnerability. Its purpose is twofold: to spoil the attacker's aim and to force him to overshoot. The break is always made towars the direction of attack. This generates "angle-off" as quickly as possible which makes the defender a difficult target. The attacker may be able to cut inside the turn but he is forced to pull lead. To do this he must tighten his turn, which increases his angel of attack. It is difficult for him to pull his nose around at high angels of attack to achieve a firing soultion. The defender should also alter his plane of flight to make himself a more difficult target.
Two forms of break are possible. Depending on the circumstances of the attack. The defender can use a maximum-rate sustained turn in which he does not lose speed, or the hardest possible turn in which he almost certainly does. The speed loss attendant on the turn aids his chances of forcing the attacker to overshoot, as does the smaller radius of the turn, but oftquoted maxims such as "speed is life" act as an inhibitor. If the break succeeds in forceing the attacker to overshoot, the next manoeuvre is the Scissors.
The Scissors
This is a series of turn reversals preformed with the object of forcing the overshooting attacker out in front to a position od disadvantage. The inital turn is reversed when the attacker has definitaly overshot and has drifted sufficiently wide as to prevent him from pulling back into the cone of vulnerability when the defender reverses. Timing the reversals is absolutely critical. The basic rule is that if the attacker is overshooting fast, reverse early, but if he is drifting slowly wide, take time and make sure.
Full power is used throughout the scissors but with the nose trimmed high to reduce the foward velocity vector. Airbreaks can be used to force the flythrough but if they are used too early they will advertise the defenders's intentions. The scissors may turn into a stalemate with neither side gaining the advantage. The stalmate can be broken by one fighter rolling inverted when passing through the adversary's six o'clock and diving away to gain speed before pulling back up, preferably into the sun by surprise. Scissoring for more than a couple of reversals is not recommended against an opponent who is able to turn faster and/or tighter, and it should not be attempted if there is more than one attacker, eihter. Fighter pilots recommend that unless the advantage is gained after three reversals, the pilot should, aiming to pass head-on the attacker, since this would put him at a disadvantage in having to turn back toward the defender as he runs out.
Vertical Scissor's
This is similar to the scissors, but it is carried out in either a steep climb or dive and the reversals are often carried out by executing a complete barrel roll. The ascending vertical rollingscissors places the fighters with the better zoom climb (or the higher initial energy state) at a disadvantage at first. Otherwise the fighter with the best sustained rate of climb will have the advantage. If in a desending vertical rolling scissors the defender finds himself forced bleow his adversary he should attempt to place himself directly beneath his oppenent and manoeuvre in phase with him. In this position he cannotbe seen and can pick his moment to disengage with a split S.
Split S
In this the defender rolls inverted and dives away vertically, pulling out in a direction opposite to that of his opponent.
Most defensive maneuvres are designed to counter an attack coming from astern, mainly by forcing an attacker to overshoot. What are the attacker's needs? Much depends on weather he is planning a missile or gun attack. A missile attack shouls be fast, deadly, and conclusive. But, as WW I German Cheif of Staff von Moltke observed many years ago: plans rarly surive contact with the enemy. The fighter pilot should be prepared for his attack to fail and know percisely what he will do next, either enter into a maneuvring combat.
If his attack is form head-on, much will depend on the maneuvre potential of the two opponents. The more maneuvrrable fighter will have the edge in a turning fight. (The more maneuvrable fighter at this stage is frequently the one travelling slowest rather than the one most aerodynamically capable.) If this is the attacker he should endeavor to pass wide of his opponent to give himself turning room. If there is any doubt about relative maneuvre potential he should pass close to deny his adversary turning room, then pullhigh in the turn. In either case he should pass down-Sun so that his next change od direction forces his opponent to look into the dazzle. If after a head-on pass both aircraft pull high a vertical ascending scissors may result.
A missile attack from astern is normaly made at high closing speed. If the attacker must zoom climb to dissipate his excess speed if he wishes to continue the fight, although it is easier and probally safer to disengage at this point. A gun attack should be made with am overtake speed of about 50 konts (just under 90 feet, 27m per secound). This gives time to track the target in the sight, minimises the risk of overshooting and retains an energy advantage for maneuvring combat.
The defensive maneuvres described earlier place much stress on forcing an attacker to overshoot. It is obviously important to avoid overshooting, so how is it done?
An overshoot is caused by one of two factors. The first is an excessively large angle substended between the fuselages of the respective aircraft. The secound is excessive closing speed. This is difficult for the attacker to spot until he is fairly close in. Either way the attacker is faced overshooting. His first remedy is the High-speed Yoyo
High Speed Yoyo
When the attacker realises that he is unable to stay on the inside on the defender's turn, he relaxes his angle of bank a little, then pulls high. As he comes over the top he is inverted, looking down at his opponent through the top of his canopy. His speed falls due to the climb, and this disminishews his radius of turn. The 1g of gravity is utilized by turning in the vertical plane, which reduces the raidus of turn still further. The attacker sholud the be well placed to slide down into a fireing position.
The high-speed yoyo is a very difficult maneuvre to preform well, and demands perfect timing and precise execution. If it is commenced too early, the defender can counter by pulling up into the attack. If started too late, the attacker is forced to pull up at an excessively steep angel to avoid overshooting. This allows the defender to disengage by diving away. A common fult in executing the high-speed yoyo is not pulling the nose high enough. This can result in the attacker ending dircetly above the defender. Some pilots find that they can obtain better results from a series of small yoyos than one large one. A variant on this maneuvre, used to prevent overshooting or to reduce the angle-off is the rollaway.
This is the Basics for Combat Maneuvers. I Will Have more to post Further Down The Road.
Thanks, :salute
Lilsquid
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At least cite your source, since you simply copy and pasted - http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/ (http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/)
Also, add a [ right before the /url to make your pictures work.
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5 bucks says the Muppets will copy this and post it by their moniter for future reference. :D
After reviewing Jayhawks link, I have found what acm move I do. It's the middle of the "sandwich" :cry
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At least cite your source, since you simply copy and pasted - http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/ (http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/)
Also, add a [ right before the /url to make your pictures work.
No no, My source has been copy righted by me =D Wrote this for the Commemorative Air Force Academies. So work cited = me
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Appreciate the constructive post! I really have to disagree at the full throttle while scissoring though, using full power in a scissors(vertical, horizontal or rolling) is just asking for a quick trip to the tower. You need to work your throttle while scissoring, and that rarely involves going balls out unless it's near the bottom of a roll(in a rolling scissors) or to help you nose around in a flat scissors that has gotten extremely slow. TBH flat scissoring should be avoided altogether, 99% of the time there is something better to do.
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Appreciate the constructive post! I really have to disagree at the full throttle while scissoring though, using full power in a scissors(vertical, horizontal or rolling) is just asking for a quick trip to the tower. You need to work your throttle while scissoring, and that rarely involves going balls out unless it's near the bottom of a roll(in a rolling scissors) or to help you nose around in a flat scissors that has gotten extremely slow. TBH flat scissoring should be avoided altogether, 99% of the time there is something better to do.
I Prefer to keep the throttle at 100% in any Maneuver. What i do is High G Stalls in the turns i do it slows me down enough to just keep in the fight without a stall
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good idea for a post, could use a little editing and maybe some constructive discussion of the topics mentioned to round it off. For instance, the section on missle attack from astern is not relavent at all to AH, and the speed a gun pass should be made at to retain a safe energy advantage would probably have to be more than 50knts in most WWII situations.
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I Prefer to keep the throttle at 100% in any Maneuver. What i do is High G Stalls in the turns i do it slows me down enough to just keep in the fight without a stall
The problem with doing this is someone who is good at saddling will adjust or lag roll while also working their throttle and still be behind you.
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The problem with doing this is someone who is good at saddling will adjust or lag roll while also working their throttle and still be behind you.
Well you also have a little more E than the dude your following OR. YOu preform a QUICK high G turn to the left then pitch the plane back when he overshoots. You have a chance to pivot back into the other guys six
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No no, My source has been copy righted by me =D Wrote this for the Commemorative Air Force Academies. So work cited = me
I'd be careful there littlesquirt, nothing but outright plagiarism (literally word for word). Ofcourse they may also have copied it verbatim since it has no copyright (or credit to original source). But then anyone who wrote a primer specific to WW2 era ACM would probably not bother with missle attacks....would they :rofl :rofl
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I'd be careful there littlesquirt, nothing but outright plagiarism (literally word for word). Ofcourse they may also have copied it verbatim since it has no copyright (or credit to original source). But then anyone who wrote a primer specific to WW2 era ACM would probably not bother with missle attacks....would they :rofl :rofl
As i stated its not just WWII Combat Maneuvers i wrote it or the CAF Aviation academies its not JUST WWII
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As i stated its not just WWII Combat Maneuvers i wrote it or the CAF Aviation academies its not JUST WWII
Didn't parents teach you not to lie?
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I copied this sentence
This is a series of turn reversals preformed with the object of forcing the overshooting attacker out in front to a position od disadvantage.
from lilsquid's original post.
You might notice it has two mispellings of note.
preformed (performed) and od (of)
I pasted it into Google.
which predictably resulted in this link
http://f15eeagle.tripod.com/sci.html
:D :neener: :x :cheers: :bolt:
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http://f15eeagle.tripod.com/vsis.html
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I copied this sentence
I missed it by "" much.
HiTech
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would you believe I have the place surrounded by the national guard.
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That tripod site is a copy of a combataircraft.com (EDIT: actually, the tripod is original, just checked it...)
Anyways, I remember that tactics page from way back, 2003/2004 or so, and I just checked it through wayback machine for 2005 and it's everything the same, so our Little Genius wrote that when he was 9 or younger
Not only he has fighter pilot genes but also Voss genes.
Text from 2005:
This is used when an attacker is first seen approaching or is already in the cone of vulnerability. Its purpose is twofold: to spoil the attacker's aim and to force him to overshoot. The break is always made towards the direction of attack, This generates "angle-off" as quickly as possible which makes the defender a difficult target. The attacker may be able to cut inside the turn but he is forced to pull lead. To do this he must tighten his turn, which increases his angle of attack. It is difficult for him to pull his nose around at high angles of attack to achieve a firing solution. The defender should also alter his plane of flight to make himself a more difficult target.
Two forms of break are possible, depending on the circumstances of the attack. The defender can use a maximum-rate sustained turn in which he does not lose speed, or the hardest possible turn in which he almost certainly does. The speed loss attendant on the hard turn aids his chances of forcing the attacker to overshoot, as does the smaller radius of turn, but oft-quoted maxims such as "speed is life" act as an inhibitor. If the break succeeds in forcing the attacker to overshoot, the next maneuver is the Scissors.
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20051223145436/www.combataircraft.com/tactics/the_break.asp
(WARNING! TAKES 10 MINUTES TO LOAD)
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Did no one check the first link I posted? :lol
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Did no one check the first link I posted? :lol
Yeah we did, but he said he wrote that too :rofl
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Maybe he truly believes that was writing is.. "Ctrl + c" & "Ctrl + v"
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Don't question Squid. He worked on it with his wife Morgan Fairchild.....whom he has seen naked.
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If you stay full power in an engagement... you will be in the tower.
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I prefer the graphics versions on the links. Thanks guys. :aok
Hey, anyone seen the "falling brick" maneuver? I'd like to know if I'm executing it properly. You know, the one where you pull too hard on the turn and you're plane falls to the ground like it's deadstick. I think I have it down pretty well but I could use some pointers. :D
And lilsquid, copy and paste is still plagirism even after you toss in the spelling and grammatical errors.
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At least cite your source, since you simply copy and pasted - http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/ (http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactics/Air-To-Air/)
The problem is that's not the original source, the text and images on that page come from a book called "Modern Air Combat" by Bill Gunston and Mike Spick. 1991.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Air-Combat-Aircraft-Employed/dp/0517412659
The text on that site is taken from the book verbatim, but the images have been scanned and pasted onto a new background, unlike the site below which shows them as they appear in the book.
http://f15eeagle.tripod.com/sci.html
The book is out of print but you can still get second hand copies.
I guess that after almost 20 years the publisher and authors (Gunston would be 83 now and Spick would be 76) have lost interest in challenging copyright infringements.
Badboy
Edit:
My mistake, my edition was published in 1991, but it was first published in 1988, 22 years ago.
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The problem is that's not the original source, the text and images on that page come from a book called "Modern Air Combat" by Bill Gunston and Mike Spick. 1991.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Air-Combat-Aircraft-Employed/dp/0517412659
The text on that site is taken from the book verbatim, but the images have been scanned and pasted onto a new background, unlike the site below which shows them as they appear in the book.
http://f15eeagle.tripod.com/sci.html
The book is out of print but you can still get second hand copies.
I guess that after almost 20 years the publisher and authors (Gunston would be 83 now) have lost interest in challenging copyright infringements.
Badboy
Great find, now we know lilsquid is definitely lying, or he wrote this before he was born.
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Someone break out the TRIPLE facepalm pic. :rolleyes:
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(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/181148-triple_facepalm_super.jpg)
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:rofl omg i spit my tea on the keyboard :rofl
Lilsquid, you can't fool these guys around here. They live and breathe this stuff. Now go to your room and hang your head in shame. :salute
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Oh what is this world coming to.
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I find it funny he copied from a copy of a copy of a copy and didn't bother to even spell check or proofread. And then claim to have written it.
Anyone (including me) who has written anything on the subject of ACM has gotten the information from another source, even the guys who publish the books.
Lilsquid is the first I've seen to claim original authorship.
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If you stay full power in an engagement... you will be in the tower.
I feel validated :)
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I feel validated :)
hell ya You know it, full throttle against someone who "knows" ACM, like someone else said....quick trip to tower :rock
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5 bucks says the Muppets will copy this and post it by their moniter for future reference. :D
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hey now that's a good idea........ :furious :furious
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5 bucks says the Muppets will copy this and post it by their moniter for future reference. :D
Hey now, a few of us non-muppets pretend to use ACMs....
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I feel validated :)
Is this equivalent to someone stamping "REJECTED" in red ink on your forehead :aok
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I feel validated :)
Here's your sign.
(http://images.freelotto.com/www.freelotto.com//dynamic/akamaizer/200503_gletter/validate_stamp.gif)
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Appreciate the constructive post! I really have to disagree at the full throttle while scissoring though, using full power in a scissors(vertical, horizontal or rolling) is just asking for a quick trip to the tower. You need to work your throttle while scissoring, and that rarely involves going balls out unless it's near the bottom of a roll(in a rolling scissors) or to help you nose around in a flat scissors that has gotten extremely slow. TBH flat scissoring should be avoided altogether, 99% of the time there is something better to do.
I'd even wep in vertical sissors. Helps get a higher angle.. I'd say going anything less than full throttle would get u to the tower much quicker. People who chop throttle in these situations are easy to spot and easier to handle in 1on1 duels once you figure out they're chopping throttle.
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I feel validated :)
by someone whos been around longer than most yet still average at best in da :D
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hell ya You know it, full throttle against someone who "knows" ACM, like someone else said....quick trip to tower :rock
poor ink. u'll never get over the hump with that train of thought :aok
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Well I go full throttle in every move i do im eaither all or nothing
If yall think its bad ok But i dogfight in High G Stalls on the brink of crashing into the deck. I try to keep a hard deck in this of 1,000 Feet this gives me ample opertunity to recover. Only when i know i can get them do i got below my hard deck and forget my line of retreat
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lilsquid...what's your in game ID?
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lilsquid...what's your in game ID?
none right now Had to quit
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none right now Had to quit
I'm sure times are tight for great authors such as yourself with all the plagiarism going on due to the interwebz these days.
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Lilsquid, now would be an appropriate time to humbly apologize for lying.
Then actually write your own ACM manual. Here let me help you out, and it won't be plagiarism because I'm giving the title to you for free, but do not list me as a co-author:
"I suck and this is how I fly"
I am torn between laughing (because this is such and incredibly stupid post) and crying (because I will have to trust your generation to run this country when I am to old to fight back).
I hearby nominate this as "Best Fail Of the Year"
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Wow.
Just...
Wow!
(they ARE getting dumber... I KNEW I was right!)
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I'd even wep in vertical sissors. Helps get a higher angle.. I'd say going anything less than full throttle would get u to the tower much quicker. People who chop throttle in these situations are easy to spot and easier to handle in 1on1 duels once you figure out they're chopping throttle.
Have to agree with you, TW.........
DrBone can tell you a story of a person chopping throttle while going vertical, a person who was holding all the cards and the E advantage, but chopped throttle and ended up in the Tower.....
heck, he might even have film of it :rofl
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You're the ham? :huh :D
After reviewing Jayhawks link, I have found what acm move I do. It's the middle of the "sandwich" :cry
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That sounds like dumb watermelon I would do actually........... I really need to keep the bottle away from the desktop. :confused:
Have to agree with you, TW.........
DrBone can tell you a story of a person chopping throttle while going vertical, a person who was holding all the cards and the E advantage, but chopped throttle and ended up in the Tower.....
heck, he might even have film of it :rofl
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by someone whos been around longer than most yet still average at best in da :D
yes, I suck at 1v1s :cry
Where did that comment even come from lol, really? I accept all DA challenges if that was a serious comment :P
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I'm sure times are tight for great authors such as yourself with all the plagiarism going on due to the interwebz these days.
lol Tec
Lilsquid I believe they got ya bud - Test score = 0 copyright laws broken
(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.
Can you pay that in cash today?
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yes, I suck at 1v1s :cry
Where did that comment even come from lol, really? I accept all DA challenges if that was a serious comment :P
think you misread me somewhat :aok
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If you stay full power in an engagement... you will be in the tower.
I feel validated :)
by someone whos been around longer than most yet still average at best in da :D
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Oh my bad
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Pathetic.
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Lilsquid, now would be an appropriate time to humbly apologize for lying.
Then actually write your own ACM manual. Here let me help you out, and it won't be plagiarism because I'm giving the title to you for free, but do not list me as a co-author:
"I suck and this is how I fly"
I am torn between laughing (because this is such and incredibly stupid post) and crying (because I will have to trust your generation to run this country when I am to old to fight back).
I hearby nominate this as "Best Fail Of the Year"
You know what this fella is Right. I Apologize for my plagiarism. i will write my own acm Manual
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You know what this fella is Right. I Apologize for my plagiarism. i will write my own acm Manual
Thank you, realize there are much worse penalties later in life for doing this.
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Thank you, realize there are much worse penalties later in life for doing this.
i do relize the errors of my way it wont be the next dicta bokle but i will make my own ACM manual for the younger genoration
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Good luck with that "younger genoration".... :lol
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i do relize the errors of my way it wont be the next dicta bokle but i will make my own ACM manual for the younger genoration
Your time would be better spent learning English, mathematics and science, instead of writing a manual on something you have no concept of. No offense.
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Your time would be better spent learning English, mathematics and science, instead of writing a manual on something you have no concept of. No offense.
Concept?... over the past few summers including this one I'm TEACHING ACM/BCM At Jr. And older Aviation Cadet Academies. i Have concept over this subject.
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:confused:
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Concept?... over the past few summers including this one I'm TEACHING ACM/BCM At Jr. And older Aviation Cadet Academies. i Have concept over this subject.
:rofl
on a serious note:Didn't parents teach you not to lie?
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:rofl
on a serious note:
I'm not lying....
Commemorative Airforce Museum
Captian, Taylor pattillo
I.D 33739
Midland Texas
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I say good luck to ya man, it's no easy task but I encourage the effort into a project like this. A real book will takes months or even years of work, I hope you can dedicate yourself to a project like that, I'm not sure I can.
I'd much rather you have hopes and aspirations than just playing video games all day.
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I say good luck to ya man, it's no easy task but I encourage the effort into a project like this. A real book will takes months or even years of work, I hope you can dedicate yourself to a project like that, I'm not sure I can.
I'd much rather you have hopes and aspirations than just playing video games all day.
i work form 8 to 5 every day not really a lot of time for this game lol
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I'm not lying....
:huh
You're 14 and you already wrote ACM manual for CAF and publish it on several websites including this forum. There even seems to be book published with what you preach.
You also teach BFM and ACM at Aviation Cadet Academies, plus working from 8 to 5, and still have time to re-publish those manuals on AH forum during your work time.
How about you take advice others gave it to you and (first and foremost) take care of your education?
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Do you know Adonai. He teaches ACM/BFM too.
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You reference the CAF. I think if approached they would distance themselves - incredibly - from you.
You sir, are a liar. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.
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You reference the CAF. I think if approached they would distance themselves - incredibly - from you.
You sir, are a liar. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.
www.commemorativeairforce.com
Look it up smart prettythang on the right click on museum and look for academies. I'm not a liar
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http://204.232.169.226/?page=cms/index&cms_page=105
It sounds like your loving parents have paid for you to take part in a good learning experience. Don't lose perspective now, Captain. ;)
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http://204.232.169.226/?page=cms/index&cms_page=104
It sounds like your loving parents have paid for you to take part in a good learning experience. Don't lose perspective now, Captain. ;)
well im not planning on it its starting tuesday
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:rofl this is too funny. I love squeaker season :rofl
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I Prefer to keep the throttle at 100% in any Maneuver. What i do is High G Stalls in the turns i do it slows me down enough to just keep in the fight without a stall
LOL! I'm willing to bet that it's very easy to force a reversal on you through an overshoot.
ack-ack
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:headscratch: Let's not let this cadet position go to our heads now. :rofl
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Concept?... over the past few summers including this one I'm TEACHING ACM/BCM At Jr. And older Aviation Cadet Academies. i Have concept over this subject.
This quote proves you do not understand the concepts of ACM on any level.
I Prefer to keep the throttle at 100% in any Maneuver. What i do is High G Stalls in the turns i do it slows me down enough to just keep in the fight without a stall
ack-ack
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This is a good thread. I was sitting here reading the posts since mine and I started laughing - my wife's on the couch watching tv and looks over at me and says what are you laughing at - she's nosy :D
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Ok, who is gonna call the museum and point them to this thread?
I would love to see what the people running that program think about one of their cadets passing off published work as their own.
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Oh my. :confused:
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Gentlemen, this is why we love summer! :aok
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I will give the kid some credit.
The CAF Academy is real and looks pretty cool if you have a kid and are anywhere near Midland Texas
http://204.232.169.226/?page=cms/index&cms_page=105
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My wife needed a laugh- she enjoyed this thread.
I found it disturbing. Disturbing not only in the willful breach of basic principles but in the stunning incompetence of this attempt at utterly shameless self-aggrandizement.
Disturbing in the spelling and grammar which point to the disaster that is the U.S. education system. Disturbing in the display of apparent life priorities. Disturbing in that this kid has parents that didn't teach personal integrity and responsibility. Yes, the younger generation spells trouble for the future but it merely sheds light on a grave failure of our generation. Shame on us.
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I guess none have ever heard of a "Tall Tale" before............ hmm...........
everyone in the history of the world has done things that others would find to be funny, or disturbing, or well you get the point.....
the only difference is now everything is instant , back when older folks did things, even things as in this thread.... not as much attention was drawn to it for we did not have the internet and the "internet groupies" that jump on every single thread to just add to the digit count 001011110011010000011........ heh.....
people from kids to elderly people all make mistakes... the idea is to learn from them......
your apology is well accepted lilsquid dude.........
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the only difference is now everything is instant , back when older folks did things, even things as in this thread.... not as much attention was drawn to it for we did not have the internet and the "internet groupies" that jump on every single thread to just add to the digit count 001011110011010000011........ heh.....
Internet does not make people lie, and "internet groupies" do not force people to post their lies on the internet either, and
lie is no less wrong just because somebody back then got away with it.
people from kids to elderly people all make mistakes... the idea is to learn from them......
There are lies and consequences. Lesson learned depend on consequence. Pat on the back is rather encouragement for more lies.
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. Yes, the younger generation spells trouble for the future but it merely sheds light on a grave failure of our generation. Shame on us.
Ouch! Never though about it being "my" failure, it's always been "their" failure. "My" representing all of humanity. Good point.
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Internet does not make people lie, and "internet groupies" do not force people to post their lies on the internet either, and
lie is no less wrong just because somebody back then got away with it.
There are lies and consequences. Lesson learned depend on consequence. Pat on the back is rather encouragement for more lies.
the youngster apologized 2big, with that is he not admitting to his lie he tryed getting by with?
did I say anything regarding Lies , anyways?
why is it everytime someone makes a post on these boards, others have to find some way of contourting them in to something else that fits their own "agenda".....
the kid publicly apologized, he knows what he did was wrong
having several kids of my own, and 10's of nieces and nephews, it is very easy to understand how making such a claim comes so easy to kids, until they are taught the ramifications of such claims...... and why one should not do it.
once a child is taught the right & wrong, then they most times will not do such things again.......
.....oh but internet groupies get off on crap like this thread though......... to throw out their .02 worth at every hit of the reply key.....
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the youngster apologized 2big, with that is he not admitting to his lie he tryed getting by with?
did I say anything regarding Lies , anyways?
why is it everytime someone makes a post on these boards, others have to find some way of contourting them in to something else that fits their own "agenda".....
the kid publicly apologized, he knows what he did was wrong
having several kids of my own, and 10's of nieces and nephews, it is very easy to understand how making such a claim comes so easy to kids, until they are taught the ramifications of such claims...... and why one should not do it.
once a child is taught the right & wrong, then they most times will not do such things again.......
.....oh but internet groupies get off on crap like this thread though......... to throw out their .02 worth at every hit of the reply key.....
Well said TC
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TC brings up a great point.
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TC brings up a great point.
That's a friggen awesome avatar...
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TC's got the right of it. In general though, it's staggering to me that people will claim stuff they got from the internet.
For anyone thinking of doing it in the future, though I can't impart to people that would try to do it why they shouldn't, remember this- Other people can use Google the same as you can, maybe even better.
:noid
Wiley.
PS- Yes, Kermit. That is indeed an awesome avatar.
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why is it everytime someone makes a post on these boards, others have to find some way of contourting them in to something else that fits their own "agenda".....
It's called discussion and the definition of discussion isn't "I agree with you about everything". Does that bother you?
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lilsquid,
Here is an idea for you, if you still want to do something about combat maneuvering.
Open what ever word processor you use and copy and paste in the text and diagrams from the web.
Format it so that it looks good, and after each block of copied text include your own comments or interpretation. Make your own comments distinctive by using a different font or italics etc. Use the spell checker to clean it up, then get someone to read it for you (post it here if you like) and then make any necessary changes depending on their feedback.
Then make up a front page with an impressive title, say "Combat Maneuvering" or something you like.
Add a note underneath that says something like "Compilation and Commentary by <your name>
Then on the next page reference the source. (not the web page, the book) and also provide the link to the site where you got the images and text.
Even if the book had been published yesterday, that's legal under the terms of fair use, providing you only use less than one chapter for educational purposes.
When you arrive at the CAF Academy let someone know you have something you would like to share, and they may even print it out for the others.
There is a good chance they will be impressed with your effort, your research, your presentation and your desire to help.
Some of your peers may also be impressed, and your parents are sure to be proud.
Then you can feel good about the fact you have helped your buddies and done it honestly.
You might also discover that doing stuff for others can be very rewarding.
If you do something like that, don't spare the effort, the more you put in, the more you get out.
Give it a try...
Badboy
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That's a friggen awesome avatar...
Sure is :aok
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This thread has turned into something bordering on constructive... I'm impressed :rock
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whatever happen to belts, switches and wooden spoons?
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I guess none have ever heard of a "Tall Tale" before............ hmm...........
everyone in the history of the world has done things that others would find to be funny, or disturbing, or well you get the point.....
the only difference is now everything is instant , back when older folks did things, even things as in this thread.... not as much attention was drawn to it for we did not have the internet and the "internet groupies" that jump on every single thread to just add to the digit count 001011110011010000011........ heh.....
people from kids to elderly people all make mistakes... the idea is to learn from them......
your apology is well accepted lilsquid dude.........
agreed sir :aok
maybe some of the so called vets could give the kid a break so he sticks around long enough to get it.
froger
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whatever happen to belts, switches and wooden spoons?
I think they all got used up on you, my friend.. ;)
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I prefer the graphics versions on the links. Thanks guys. :aok
Hey, anyone seen the "falling brick" maneuver? I'd like to know if I'm executing it properly. You know, the one where you pull too hard on the turn and you're plane falls to the ground like it's deadstick. I think I have it down pretty well but I could use some pointers. :D
And lilsquid, copy and paste is still plagirism even after you toss in the spelling and grammatical errors.
<-------did the falling brick last night in a temp.
@ 1k alt the ground comes up fast :D
froger
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This Forum Post goes over the "Fundamentals" of Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM). This is for any pilot who might need a little extra help with their "Moves" i should say. This is not Just WW2 Tactics it talks about missile attacks which might come in handy in another game so you might want to read it.
The Break
This is used when an attacker is first seen or is already in the cone of vulnerability. Its purpose is twofold: to spoil the attacker's aim and to force him to overshoot. The break is always made towars the direction of attack. This generates "angle-off" as quickly as possible which makes the defender a difficult target. The attacker may be able to cut inside the turn but he is forced to pull lead. To do this he must tighten his turn, which increases his angel of attack. It is difficult for him to pull his nose around at high angels of attack to achieve a firing soultion. The defender should also alter his plane of flight to make himself a more difficult target.
Two forms of break are possible. Depending on the circumstances of the attack. The defender can use a maximum-rate sustained turn in which he does not lose speed, or the hardest possible turn in which he almost certainly does. The speed loss attendant on the turn aids his chances of forcing the attacker to overshoot, as does the smaller radius of the turn, but oftquoted maxims such as "speed is life" act as an inhibitor. If the break succeeds in forceing the attacker to overshoot, the next manoeuvre is the Scissors.
The Scissors
This is a series of turn reversals preformed with the object of forcing the overshooting attacker out in front to a position od disadvantage. The inital turn is reversed when the attacker has definitaly overshot and has drifted sufficiently wide as to prevent him from pulling back into the cone of vulnerability when the defender reverses. Timing the reversals is absolutely critical. The basic rule is that if the attacker is overshooting fast, reverse early, but if he is drifting slowly wide, take time and make sure.
Full power is used throughout the scissors but with the nose trimmed high to reduce the foward velocity vector. Airbreaks can be used to force the flythrough but if they are used too early they will advertise the defenders's intentions. The scissors may turn into a stalemate with neither side gaining the advantage. The stalmate can be broken by one fighter rolling inverted when passing through the adversary's six o'clock and diving away to gain speed before pulling back up, preferably into the sun by surprise. Scissoring for more than a couple of reversals is not recommended against an opponent who is able to turn faster and/or tighter, and it should not be attempted if there is more than one attacker, eihter. Fighter pilots recommend that unless the advantage is gained after three reversals, the pilot should, aiming to pass head-on the attacker, since this would put him at a disadvantage in having to turn back toward the defender as he runs out.
Vertical Scissor's
This is similar to the scissors, but it is carried out in either a steep climb or dive and the reversals are often carried out by executing a complete barrel roll. The ascending vertical rollingscissors places the fighters with the better zoom climb (or the higher initial energy state) at a disadvantage at first. Otherwise the fighter with the best sustained rate of climb will have the advantage. If in a desending vertical rolling scissors the defender finds himself forced bleow his adversary he should attempt to place himself directly beneath his oppenent and manoeuvre in phase with him. In this position he cannotbe seen and can pick his moment to disengage with a split S.
Split S
In this the defender rolls inverted and dives away vertically, pulling out in a direction opposite to that of his opponent.
Most defensive maneuvres are designed to counter an attack coming from astern, mainly by forcing an attacker to overshoot. What are the attacker's needs? Much depends on weather he is planning a missile or gun attack. A missile attack shouls be fast, deadly, and conclusive. But, as WW I German Cheif of Staff von Moltke observed many years ago: plans rarly surive contact with the enemy. The fighter pilot should be prepared for his attack to fail and know percisely what he will do next, either enter into a maneuvring combat.
If his attack is form head-on, much will depend on the maneuvre potential of the two opponents. The more maneuvrrable fighter will have the edge in a turning fight. (The more maneuvrable fighter at this stage is frequently the one travelling slowest rather than the one most aerodynamically capable.) If this is the attacker he should endeavor to pass wide of his opponent to give himself turning room. If there is any doubt about relative maneuvre potential he should pass close to deny his adversary turning room, then pullhigh in the turn. In either case he should pass down-Sun so that his next change od direction forces his opponent to look into the dazzle. If after a head-on pass both aircraft pull high a vertical ascending scissors may result.
A missile attack from astern is normaly made at high closing speed. If the attacker must zoom climb to dissipate his excess speed if he wishes to continue the fight, although it is easier and probally safer to disengage at this point. A gun attack should be made with am overtake speed of about 50 konts (just under 90 feet, 27m per secound). This gives time to track the target in the sight, minimises the risk of overshooting and retains an energy advantage for maneuvring combat.
The defensive maneuvres described earlier place much stress on forcing an attacker to overshoot. It is obviously important to avoid overshooting, so how is it done?
An overshoot is caused by one of two factors. The first is an excessively large angle substended between the fuselages of the respective aircraft. The secound is excessive closing speed. This is difficult for the attacker to spot until he is fairly close in. Either way the attacker is faced overshooting. His first remedy is the High-speed Yoyo
High Speed Yoyo
When the attacker realises that he is unable to stay on the inside on the defender's turn, he relaxes his angle of bank a little, then pulls high. As he comes over the top he is inverted, looking down at his opponent through the top of his canopy. His speed falls due to the climb, and this disminishews his radius of turn. The 1g of gravity is utilized by turning in the vertical plane, which reduces the raidus of turn still further. The attacker sholud the be well placed to slide down into a fireing position.
The high-speed yoyo is a very difficult maneuvre to preform well, and demands perfect timing and precise execution. If it is commenced too early, the defender can counter by pulling up into the attack. If started too late, the attacker is forced to pull up at an excessively steep angel to avoid overshooting. This allows the defender to disengage by diving away. A common fult in executing the high-speed yoyo is not pulling the nose high enough. This can result in the attacker ending dircetly above the defender. Some pilots find that they can obtain better results from a series of small yoyos than one large one. A variant on this maneuvre, used to prevent overshooting or to reduce the angle-off is the rollaway.
This is the Basics for Combat Maneuvers. I Will Have more to post Further Down The Road.
Thanks, :salute
Lilsquid
Am i missing something here or can anyone point out where squid says that he wrote this or took credit for writing it?
at least in his original post....
froger
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Had he just stuck w/ the 1st post this thread woulda been moved by Skuzzy to Help/Training.
It was his second post, after it was pointed out he is just cut/pasting other peoples stuff, that he wrote the following.
No no, My source has been copy righted by me =D Wrote this for the Commemorative Air Force Academies. So work cited = me
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Had he just stuck w/ the 1st post this thread woulda been moved by Skuzzy to Help/Training.
It was his second post, after it was pointed out he is just cut/pasting other peoples stuff, that he wrote the following.
:aok
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lilsquid,
Here is an idea for you, if you still want to do something about combat maneuvering.
Open what ever word processor you use and copy and paste in the text and diagrams from the web.
Format it so that it looks good, and after each block of copied text include your own comments or interpretation. Make your own comments distinctive by using a different font or italics etc. Use the spell checker to clean it up, then get someone to read it for you (post it here if you like) and then make any necessary changes depending on their feedback.
Then make up a front page with an impressive title, say "Combat Maneuvering" or something you like.
Add a note underneath that says something like "Compilation and Commentary by <your name>
Then on the next page reference the source. (not the web page, the book) and also provide the link to the site where you got the images and text.
Even if the book had been published yesterday, that's legal under the terms of fair use, providing you only use less than one chapter for educational purposes.
When you arrive at the CAF Academy let someone know you have something you would like to share, and they may even print it out for the others.
There is a good chance they will be impressed with your effort, your research, your presentation and your desire to help.
Some of your peers may also be impressed, and your parents are sure to be proud.
Then you can feel good about the fact you have helped your buddies and done it honestly.
You might also discover that doing stuff for others can be very rewarding.
If you do something like that, don't spare the effort, the more you put in, the more you get out.
Give it a try...
Badboy
Good call. Relevant and constructive. :salute
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Guys he is young , he desperately wants to fit in . Everyone who has never done something stupid to impress people he looks up to , please continue to flame away . If you have , remember how you felt when caught . Lilsquid you want me to whomp you with a knotted plow line ? <plagerised from outlaw josey whales> . Come on lil brother consolidate yer feces you are better then this .
P.S I love you man !
Badz great advice sir . The only kind I have ever seen you give . :salute
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lilsquid is a good guy, this doesn't change my opinion of this young gent! He's passionate about the game at such a young age and not a bad stick either. I bet he'd beat 70% of the pilots in Aces High now - I wish you the best my friend :salute
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Am i missing something here or can anyone point out where squid says that he wrote this or took credit for writing it?
at least in his original post....
No no, My source has been copy righted by me =D Wrote this for the Commemorative Air Force Academies. So work cited = me
It wasn't in his OP, but I found his OP implied it and so I found it on a site and asked him to cite his source. Then he responded with what I've quoted, it has since been exposed and the kid has apologized so no need to dwell on this anymore.
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It wasn't in his OP, but I found his OP implied it and so I found it on a site and asked him to cite his source. Then he responded with what I've quoted, it has since been exposed and the kid has apologized so no need to dwell on this anymore.
:aok