Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: dud on June 25, 2010, 07:18:01 AM
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Anyone thought about having towed guns lately? I found an old post about them but nothing recent. Towed AA and towed AT guns are something that could be interesting. Allied guns could use the M3 to tow, and another position to man the gun. To kill one, both the M3 and gun itself would have to be destroyed. Axis could use the half-track as a tow, with an added position to man the gun. Time delay after stopping to setup, then fire for effect. ;)
Or is this just a utter bad idea?
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Heres some problems I see with this.....
#1: you would get two kills, if it takes two people to work a towed gun (M3/ SdKfz 251 driver, and the actual driver), instead of having to kill both to get a single kill.
#2: Also, you'd have to make it so the gunner only has, say, 30 shells with him unless HIS halftrack stays within 20yds of him, then its 50-60 shells.
#3: this would be good for defense, but not really good for offense. And for defense, you have the problem of the gun being able to cover only what he can see from where he was placed by the M3/251 (well, from wherever he rolled himself to within a 50ft radius), where as a tank can cover roughly 4 times that much gound, and do it more effectively (he's got armor. even a D3A will pose serious worries for you)
#4: even the low bushes we have will get in your way, unless you put yourself on a hill, which negates the only purpose of having a towed gun in AH (smaller = harder to see).
#5: Self proppeled AT guns, such as the M3A1 GMC (M3 halftrack with the gun from the M4A3(75) mounted on it, and the SdKfz 251/22 (SdKfz 251 with a Pak-40, the same gun as the Panzer's, mounted on it) would be much more effective, since you don't have to rely on someone else to move you, you carry your own ammo, and you will be able to see over the small bushes while retaining a smaller outline than a tank.
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I imagine an unarmored gun would be rather easy to destroy as well....It's downright insulting when an experienced GV'er kills you with his MG. :furious
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the thing is though nemesis. Towed guns could be moved slowly by 2-4 men. you can slowly roll the AT gun to a good position in a grove or by a barn (or in a barn). it can also be picked up and have the direction of the facing changed to accomodate the 360 degrees needed. so other than deployment with half tracks, i see no problem with AT guns and AA guns
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Some valid points I hadn't thought of...brush height,lack of armor, terrain challenges. It would possibly be a better idea if there were actual city sieges, where there are bombed out buildings to hide them in or streets to wind around in to set ambushes for tanks, etc. El Oh El....just an idea. Thanks for the input.
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Yeah BAR, and the slowest tanks we have can still go at least 5 times faster than a gun could be pushed. Once they clear the 100yds or so to the next grove of trees, they're in the clear.
And yes, which is why I said "well, from wherever he rolled himself to within a 50ft radius", that being about the maximum distance we should let them move and still keep more than the one shell loaded in the gun without getting supps.
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Instead of a towed gun, simply have that howitzer or infantry support gun mounted to an existing chassis. The M3, SdKfz, and M4A3 Sherman all have versions in which an infantry support cannon was mounted on that chassis.
Easy peasy. :)
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Loon, I think he's asking for AT guns. The M4A3(75) is about the best "infintry support" gun in the game.
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nemesis, some terrains are PERFECT for AT gun ambushes... pretend you use an AT instead of a sherman or panzer. And have 3 coordinated AT guns. it can create a defensive pocket and killzone. low profiling in the bushes will allow for concealment from return fire. YES it would be hard to move em. But ive posted for a half hour at some times with a tank and just picked off enemy tanks rolling towards our line. i usually end up with 10-15 kills before i displace because they never find me.
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Loon, I think he's asking for AT guns. The M4A3(75) is about the best "infintry support" gun in the game.
Ah yes, then the SdKfz 251/22 would be perfect. The only thing though would be the cannon, the Pak40 was superior to the KwK40 just like the US 76mm M1A1 cannon vs US 75mm M3 cannon. Im under the impression there was not a version of the SdKfz that carried the KwK40 like we have mounted on the Pzr IV. The SdKfz 251/22 carried the Pak40. If HTC would allow a substitution and mount the KwK40 instead, we'd have another variant with minimal "coading". Or better yet, model the Pak40 and get the real SdKfz 251/22 in play! :aok
Actually, I'd vouch for the LVT-4's M2 75mm cannon right along with the M3 cannon of the M4A3 75mm Sherman as being the best infantry support gun in the game. It is the same thing as the M4A3's M3 75mm cannon, only short barreled, AND the LVT-4 carries more HE rounds. :D
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It carries 3 more rounds (1.5 more town buildings destroyed), can be easily killed by an M8, and the M4 has a higher ROF (I think it does anyway).
And BAR, you're calculating without aircraft. If I see anything red on the ground, I call it out to the guys on the ground. If I can, I will tell what it is, and if its a firefly as opposed to an M4A3 for example. Also, all the tankers have to do is lob an HE round anywhere near the gun, and the crew is killed (IDK if that would be a kill, or if its just "disabled", like when our turrets get damaged.
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It carries 3 more rounds (1.5 more town buildings destroyed), can be easily killed by an M8, and the M4 has a higher ROF (I think it does anyway).
And BAR, you're calculating without aircraft. If I see anything red on the ground, I call it out to the guys on the ground. If I can, I will tell what it is, and if its a firefly as opposed to an M4A3 for example. Also, all the tankers have to do is lob an HE round anywhere near the gun, and the crew is killed (IDK if that would be a kill, or if its just "disabled", like when our turrets get damaged.
i see no problem with aircraft anyways. the only reason many GVers have A/C problems is due to the lack of air support of their allies. A/C bombing GVs need to be contested for GV ops to work. and if you are defending a base, these aircraft should not be a problem anyways. So yet again, why would AT guns have a problem setting ambushes up?
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Well for starters, our slowest tanks have 20mph on them (and thats being conservative). That means that even a small course change (say there is a tank on the left, I would head left, and follow the action) can cause your ambush to fail, given the abundance of cover, and that your AT gun(s) will likely be in the best cover they can find (cover works both ways you know).
Second, AC will report anything you do if they are near the ground. They also have a tendancy to strafe targets regardless of if its effective (strafing a Tiger with a spitfire's .30's will do nothing), however, it will easily kill your gun crew.
Third, YOU may have the patients to work an ambush, but I'm willing to bet that your buddies will bail on you half way through, meaning a lot of the routes you had covered are now open.
And Loon, I didn't see your statment about the Pak 40 being superior to the KwK 40, which is correct. If nothing else, the stronger cannon will get it use (likely the hardest hitting perk free vehicle).
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Well for starters, our slowest tanks have 20mph on them (and thats being conservative). That means that even a small course change (say there is a tank on the left, I would head left, and follow the action) can cause your ambush to fail, given the abundance of cover, and that your AT gun(s) will likely be in the best cover they can find (cover works both ways you know).
Second, AC will report anything you do if they are near the ground. They also have a tendancy to strafe targets regardless of if its effective (strafing a Tiger with a spitfire's .30's will do nothing), however, it will easily kill your gun crew.
Third, YOU may have the patients to work an ambush, but I'm willing to bet that your buddies will bail on you half way through, meaning a lot of the routes you had covered are now open.
And Loon, I didn't see your statment about the Pak 40 being superior to the KwK 40, which is correct. If nothing else, the stronger cannon will get it use (likely the hardest hitting perk free vehicle).
1: you still cannot understand my point. you're not sitting behind the cover unless you are hiding. 2nd, you do not NEED to move if you are AMBUSHING them.
2: if you're underneath trees or in barns you're not going to be seen nem...
3: you cannot speak for other players nem. and i know for a fact that if you bring the right people they will stay with you. and along with that, a good leader can get people to follow if you know what you're doing or even if they THINK you know what you're doing... nemesis, basically all your points right now are moot no offense meant...
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1st: You missed my point about them moving away from the route you predicted. If that happens, you will need to move to get a shot, or wait and see if anyone comes into your kill zone. And if you pop out of cover to shoot, then you are just as vulnerable, if not more so. Are you familiar with the saying "if the enemy is in range, so are you"?
2nd: Don't be so sure. I've gotten many kills (and often avoided being killed) because an air spotter said "heads up guys, theres a tank hiding in that barn ahead of you". How much do you want to bet that the GV thought the barn or trees would keep his icon hidden. And your statment contradicts the first; why would the GV's have a spotter come look things over, give someone enough time to set up an ambush, and THEN move forward?
3rd: No doubt, but the majority of players lack the patients to sit in a barn for 45 mins without any action. I've seen some people just charge ahead to be killed when theres someone in a P-38 checking things out ahead of us.
And another thing: You'll have to rely on M3's and SdKfz 251's to move you around, so an M3 sitting in the bushes will be a dead give away that an AT gun is somewhere nearby. I'm not saying that I don't want AT guns, but I'm saying that vehicles such as the SdKfz 251/22 would be much better suited to the world of AH. You must admit that on many maps, the groves of trees placed every 300yds or so will severly limit the ground you can cover.
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1st: You missed my point about them moving away from the route you predicted. If that happens, you will need to move to get a shot, or wait and see if anyone comes into your kill zone. And if you pop out of cover to shoot, then you are just as vulnerable, if not more so. Are you familiar with the saying "if the enemy is in range, so are you"?
2nd: Don't be so sure. I've gotten many kills (and often avoided being killed) because an air spotter said "heads up guys, theres a tank hiding in that barn ahead of you". How much do you want to bet that the GV thought the barn or trees would keep his icon hidden. And your statment contradicts the first; why would the GV's have a spotter come look things over, give someone enough time to set up an ambush, and THEN move forward?
3rd: No doubt, but the majority of players lack the patients to sit in a barn for 45 mins without any action. I've seen some people just charge ahead to be killed when theres someone in a P-38 checking things out ahead of us.
And another thing: You'll have to rely on M3's and SdKfz 251's to move you around, so an M3 sitting in the bushes will be a dead give away that an AT gun is somewhere nearby. I'm not saying that I don't want AT guns, but I'm saying that vehicles such as the SdKfz 251/22 would be much better suited to the world of AH. You must admit that on many maps, the groves of trees placed every 300yds or so will severly limit the ground you can cover.
here it goes again... another me and you argument which will never die unless i step away...
1: you don't need to move. most people follow the most predictable path taken to the base. any person who has a half a brain will know where to set up.
2: know the chances of this happening? slim to none. and usually an aircraft spots the GV BEFORE they move into the trees or structure they try to hide in. Who says there's spotters nem? you should know many engagements don't include A/C. or if they do, they are usually contested. along with the fact that AT guns are defensive only therefore like i already said there will usually be defending aircraft more often than attacking. the invaders wont have a spotter to use.
3: if an M3 is rolling you foward you will beat the attackers to a good defensive position. and sadly i must say i already know good positioning at many bases on many maps... i'm an AH dweeb :(
4: who says the M3 has to wait nearby? just ditch after setup and let them take another GV into the battle
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Of course it won't die till one of us steps away. Its not like we have anything but speculation to go on in these hypothetical arguments. That means its your oppinion against mine.
1: most of the people you want to keep from getting to the fight (ronder, snarglie, Dr7, myself, 0nline, etc.) will be following the action (not where you want to set up). That means your ambush has accomplished killing the cannon fodder a few times each.
2: you seem to be under the impression that a furball going on overhead means that everyone not fighting will be killed in a few seconds. An La-7 on the deck can be damn hard to catch. You also seem to think that the furballers will head to the other side of the base to kill a spotter. But I do admit that I hadn't concidered this with an airfield in mind; I was thinking about them being used to defend V bases (if you set up on the field, you can be damn hard to shift).
3: so you plan on spending your entire time in one spot? Once a few guy get killed, people will stear clear of you. I'm still amazed at how fast some people can figure out your field of fire.
4: so you want to be left with however many shells the gun crew can carry in their arms? If we do get this, the ammo will be left where the M3 put the gun down, or it will stay in the M3. In the case of the former, your ammo will be as targeted as supply boxes. Whenever I see some supps, I use them up, or put a shell on them.
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Clearly we have very different notions about how to play the game.
1: most of the people you want to bump off will be following the action (not where you want to set up)
2: you seem to be under the impression that just because theres (likely) a furball underway means that every con not fighting will die within seconds. An La-7 on the deck can easily spot for the GV's, and is unlikely to be caught. But I do admit that I hadn't concidered this with an airfield in mind; I was thinking about them being used to defend V bases (if you set up on the field, you can be damn hard to shift)
3: so you plan on spending your entire time in one spot? Once a few guy get killed, people will stear clear of you. I'm still amazed at how fast some people can figure out your field of fire.
4: so you want to be left with however many shells the gun crew can carry in their arms? If we do get this, the ammo will be left where the M3 put the gun down, or it will stay in the M3. In the case of the former, your ammo will be as targeted as supply boxes. Whenever I see some supps, I use them up, or put a shell on them.
1: true
2: yeah you can always have a stray plane fly by but usually if theres alot of air action nearby they aren't looking for GVs... although the story is always going to be different for Vbases.
3: haha nope! completely wrong. you get a good fight going and they wont notice you at all and will still go head on to the others
4: pretend the M3 dropped the ammo out too.
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Re read what you quoted. I apear to have edited it while you were posting.
3: Have you seen what happens when a jeep, M3, or M8 comes out to a GV fight? They attact fire like a rook bomber flew into a bish/knit furball.
4: I bet HT won't let you move more than 10yds before your ammo goes poof. Otherwise we'll have to cut the ROF once your local shells are depleted. Do you really expect to keep up a 10-15 rpm ROF when your ammo is 30 feet away?
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Re read what you quoted. I apear to have edited it while you were posting.
3: Have you seen what happens when a jeep, M3, or M8 comes out to a GV fight? They attact fire like a rook bomber flew into a bish/knit furball.
4: I bet HT won't let you move more than 10yds before your ammo goes poof. Otherwise we'll have to cut the ROF once your local shells are depleted. Do you really expect to keep up a 10-15 rpm ROF when your ammo is 30 feet away?
3: so doesnt every GV out there in the game...
4: point? if you expended your rounds then all youre going to do is try to rtb or wait for a tow or more supplies for more ammo...
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3: well yes, but no one drops what they're doing when another M4 spawns in; they deal with their current target (or get killed, and spawn back in) and then find a new one. But when a jeep rolls by, almost everyone drops what they're doing to shoot at it.
4: My point is that under ideal conditions, you may be able to stay with your ammo, and you may get one shot kills. But in the cartoon world of Aces High, it will likely take two rounds (on an M4 or T-34. More on a tiger, which is becoming more prevelant to take up some of the slack left by the firefly), which means that you will get a total of 15 kills, assuming 100% accuracy, and no ricochets. And we all know that no is 100% accurate, and eveyone gets ricochets.
You will also likely move just a LITTLE bit to far, and dump your ammo. It will take time to figure out how far 30 feet looks from a towed gun.