Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: OOZ662 on July 10, 2010, 08:17:55 AM
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I'm not one for the super-cutting-edge graphics systems, nor am I one to punch out 3DMark scores in my pass-time. I've actually never overclocked a computer. But, even I have to admit that this (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATam1FPVA5R_ZGMzc21jYnFfMTQ3ZzZkbnpkaGQ) is starting to fall behind the ball. It still plays Aces High like a champ, but any new games...it's toast. I'd like to gut it and, saving as many parts as possible, come into the new age of LGA and PCI-E. I'd like bang-for-buck components (not bottom-of-the-barrel, but no need to set the curtains on fire) to preferably keep the cost far under $1,000. That being said, future upgrade paths are a wonderful thing.
I have SATA 2gb/s hard drives, a PCI sound card, an SATA optical drive, a floppy drive, and an ATX case to salvage from the old system. It has a copy of OEM XP 32-bit, but 64-bit seems the way these days and I do like Windows 7. The power supply is losing its gusto and obviously the GPU, CPU, motherboard, and RAM are headed into the closet if I can justify this cost. I'd also prefer to stick with Intel and nVidia based components, and I have a soft-spot for GIGABYTE motherboards.
Any help is appreciated. I put together a system myself earlier, but I've fallen far enough behind in the tech curve that I had a very hard time balancing the components well.
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If you want bang for the buck you still can't beat an E8400 or E8500 CPU coupled with a 9800 GTX+ and 4 Gb of DDR2 800 RAM. And it will run fine on 32 bit XP.
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Are LGA775s going to be around much longer?
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Are LGA775s going to be around much longer?
I'm sure they will be phased out over time but they are still incredibly capable CPU's. The real question is how long will it be before software overcomes their capabilities? I expect that will be quite some time.
I've got:
Intel E6750 C2D 2.66 Ghz OC'd to 3.2 Ghz
eVGA NVidia 780i motherboard
Kingston HyperX DDR2 800 @ 4-4-4-12 timings
eVGA 8800 GTS 512
Creative X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatality
PC Power & Cooling 750W Silencer PSU
Win XP 32 bit
Plus 2 optical drives, 4 hard drives and a floppy.
It runs AH flawlessly at full settings except shadows @ 59 FPS steady on a 22" LG widescreen monitor (1680x1050).
Given HTC's proclivity to cater to lower end systems I don't expect I'll be rebuilding for several years.
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What's your case? And what is your budget...say...500? 600?
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If you want bang for the buck you still can't beat an E8400 or E8500 CPU coupled with a 9800 GTX+ and 4 Gb of DDR2 800 RAM. And it will run fine on 32 bit XP.
Uh...with WinXP 32bit you will only have use of a maximum 3.5GB of RAM, that includes the video card RAM. The rest just sits there. Win7 64bit would do much better on that hardware.
If you want bang for the buck, go AMD cpu and ATI graphics, going Intel/Nvidia will get you a lot less for your money. You could get under $1000 with an Intel core I5 cpu, 6GB DDR3 1333 RAM, 800watt power supply and Geforce GTX260. The 9800/250 series is ok but not as good as the 260 series unless you want to get into the fermi based cards.
GeForce GTX260 (lifetime warranty, not a refurb)
http://www.pcconnectionexpress.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9302961&SourceID=k172344 (http://www.pcconnectionexpress.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9302961&SourceID=k172344)
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http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4445421&CatId=1533 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4445421&CatId=1533)
Gigabyte EP45T-UD3LR Motherboard - Intel P45, Socket 775, ATX, DDR3, Audio, PCI Express 2.0, Gigabit LAN, S/PDIF, USB 2.0, RAID
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3574211&CatId=2396 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3574211&CatId=2396)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Processor BX80570E8400 - 3.0GHz, 6MB Cache, 1333MHz FSB, Wolfdale, Dual-Core, Retail, Socket 775, Processor with Fan
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5082126&CatId=3361 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5082126&CatId=3361)
Corsair PC12800 RAM - 4GB, (2x2GB) DDR3, 1600MHz, Dual Channel, Class 8
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4369731&CatId=3585 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4369731&CatId=3585)
EVGA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216 Superclocked Video Card - 896MB GDDR3, PCI Express 2.0 x16, SLI Ready, (Dual Link) Dual DVI, HDTV, VGA Support
Your hard drives are fine, simple upgrade to the MB, RAM, CPU and VC.
The parts above are exactly what TilDeath built for me except for the RAM. Runs almost everything without any issues, without going over budget.
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Everything Gyrene says - well, almost. ;) I'd avoid AMD and go Intel, but I'd stick to ATI over NVidia as he suggests.
Why? I love AMD from the point of view that they keep Intel honest (or more honest, anyway) with competition - and I was never happier than late last decade when they were beating Intel like a red-headed stepchild. And while their processors do not fare well in a few odd corners compared to Intel (like video processing extensions, for example), overall, they are exceedingly capable. So why do I avoid them? The simple answer is that even today, the chipsets support of AMD is often "hit or miss", and if you get a combo that's great you're golden. But about 1/2 the time, you get a squirrelly little beast instead. I fought my wars with AMD systems that worked 99.5% around the 2004/2005 time frame, and have no desire to go there again.
Nvidia... at one time I'd buy nothing else. But they have become the new IBM of the late 80's and 90's - suffering from a serious case of overconfidence while putting out a product that their competitor's beat all hollow on almost every important front all while focusing on marginal markets rather than their mainstream "bread and butter".
I built my new system (Geez, almost a year ago, how time flies!) on an LGA775-based board - It was less expensive and just as capable, and I honestly believe that by the time it's time to upgrade I'll be looking at end-of-life for 1366 anyway (which is still more expensive, although the margin between has shrunk since my build.)
ALL IMHO, take it for what it cost you....
<S>
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What's your case? And what is your budget...say...500? 600?
I would top out at $1,000, but that would be painful. I'd prefer as low as possible without getting into a dead end like I did with the previous machine (Socket 478 and AGP phased out almost as soon as I put the last screw in the case).
This (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144176) is my case, except with a 120mm fan hillbilly-modded into the the plexiglass where the little ribbed airholes are.
Dragon's build looks like a decent winner at first glance. What power supply would you all suggest? Some online calculator said I'd need 400w for the i7/9800GTX+ build I randomly scoped out earlier today and that sounds a bit ludicrous. Note that noise is not an issue; it sounds like a jet anyway.
EDIT: Looks like I'll need to bust out the measuring tape for that GTX260. :) I can get everything cheaper at NewEgg except that video card, which is like $40 more before $20 rebate.
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Dragon's is solid. I'll give you the AMD side just for the hell of it.
AMD 955BE 3.2ghz QC - 159
GA-890XA-UD3 - 119 (questionable mobo)
sapphire HD5770 - 154 ($10 MIR)
OCZ 700W Modular PSU - 84
Scythe HSF - 30
Corsair 4GB (2x2) DDR3 1333 ram - 96
Total is around 650 for those parts. I think the 5770 is shorter than the 260. This is w/o any HDD's, windows copies, case etc. May need to buy a 8 pin extension if you plan on routing the 8 pin around the back of the case.
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The motherboard Dragon suggested seems to have major memory timing problems. That's unfortunate, since it looks like a rather solid board otherwise. :(
Thanks, Spikes; I'll give that a compare.
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The motherboard Dragon suggested seems to have major memory timing problems. That's unfortunate, since it looks like a rather solid board otherwise. :(
Thanks, Spikes; I'll give that a compare.
I have the EP45-UD3P. Only a few differences such as DDR3, etc.
OOZ the parts I threw up are only a quick list. If you are 'interested' I can post links and research a bit more (mainly for a 'better' mobo), and RAM, etc. Oh you should also get a new case. I used to have a Apevia X-plorer (I think it was). NZXT cases are pretty cheap...a bunch run under 100 and are great quality.
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I'm not really all that keen on AMD, really. I can see jumping to ATi, but AMD hasn't given me much reason yet.
What's the reasoning on the new case? I suppose for the video card fitting. If I were to get a new one, I'd have to go through deciding whether I want to bang up to a Full Tower again...I hate decisions. :D
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NZXT Beta EVO, NZXT M59, NZXT Gamma, NZXT Lexa S all 4 great cases.
ATi IMO currently has the best bang for the buck card in the 5770. AMD is just cheaper. With price comes quality, but you have a limited price, so in turn limited quality. :)
You could slip by with a dual core I for sure I bet.
NEw case reasoning? "Why the hell not?" Hehe. It's best to have a shiny new case for all those new parts to look good in :) (if you get a side panel window case (M59/Lexa S)).
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I'm not really all that keen on AMD, really.
yeah AMD isn't really for everyone.
but i'm glad i'm not everyone else.
this chip(see sig) is still chuggin along fine.
:D
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Are LGA775s going to be around much longer?
Doesnt matter and here is why. And I know because its happened to me virtually every time I've bought a machine or built one
Lets say you build a hot rod system using the latest motherboard with an eye on not having to rebuild the entire thing in the future.
Whats going to happen. Is by the time your ready to get or build that next machine. That mother board. and most of the parts are going to be old school already
that LGA 1336 (for example) will be replaced by QFT 4,000,000 And quad core CPU will be replaced by some triple quadruple quad with a mind meld co proccesser, Your PCI card wont fit the new slot designed to take video bricks that will look more like a circuit breaker and will plug in pretty much the same way.
Forget that old PSU. the micro mini nuclear 450 gigawatt reactor PSU will be needed to power it all. And a turbine wind machine to cool it all
Point is. Get what you think will last you a few years. Then just start saving for a new build.
6 months from now anything "new" you get will already be old technology.
After 4-5 years the money you saved by not buying upgrades will enable you to build a completely new machine and start all over again
That being said. A really nice machine can be built with a $1,000 hard price limit
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Point is. Get what you think will last you a few years. Then just start saving for a new build.
I'm not expecting a lifetime computer here. My point being that I literally built that last computer within a few months of both AGP and Socket 478 being entirely phased out. :) That's all I'm trying to avoid. (And even then, she's turning...what, 8 this year? It's not like I didn't get my money's worth.)
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Heya Ooz,
just to show you that you do not need a bunch of high priced components, here is what I was able to get out of a bunch of AH community member donated PC parts
heya gyrene,
that PC I was able to build for an AH member in need, with the AH Community member donated parts actually turned out real well
Gigabyte soctet 939 AMD type MB with (2) PCI-E slots capable of SLI-Mode (used)
AMD Opteron 185 dual core processor 2.6GHz cpu (used)
BFG Tech 650 watt PSU with (2) PCI-E power plugs for video cards ( used)
(4) 1 gig sticks of Patriot PC3200 DDR1 Memory sticks ( Used )
Antec 1200 case ( used )
Hitachi 320 gig SATA II HD ( only new item )
onboard sound
Nvidia 9500 videcard PCIE ( used )
Windows 7 64 bit Ultimate
the build which other AH Community members donated the parts, is capable of running Aces High with everything turned up to maximum and shadows in the Advanced graphic settings ingame runs at 2084 shadows using hi-res text package
and the FPS is locked at 75 /74 fps
all this on a PC that is built using 2 to 3 generations older typed PC parts that had all be previously used in all different PCs
incase someone wanted to compare with
will post a DXDIAG and a few screen shots later on.....
but htis completely donated by the community PC parts PC BUILD is outstanding
and scores a modest overall 6.7 on the Windows 7 performance index
also, this particular MB is only able to utilize only 3 Gigs of the memory because of a glitch in the Gigabyte Board, which is noted in the Gigabyte forums new edit 7/9/2010: their is a fix with this MB to fix the 3 gig memory issue by updating the BIOS
hope this helps you make some comparisons when picking out your new parts
I do suggest a new case though, either an antec900 or NZXT Tempest
for PSU go with 650 to 750 watt and perferbly 60 amp single 12V rail if you can find one ... ( whoever took over PC Power & Cooling PSU's is the best right now, the name eludes me right this moment )
that's bout all I have to offer, to many seem to argue in this forum these days...... everyone is a PC experten it seems.... I only started with this lil pc's back in mid/late 80's right before I got out of the Navy... I hold no bachelor or doctoriate in PC building :rolleyes:
Good Luck
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I'm not expecting a lifetime computer here. My point being that I literally built that last computer within a few months of both AGP and Socket 478 being entirely phased out. :) That's all I'm trying to avoid. (And even then, she's turning...what, 8 this year? It's not like I didn't get my money's worth.)
Well the 775s will still be 'around' for a bit longer for sure. Lots of options for them. Definitely go for it or AM3.
Then again, why does it not need to be 'phased out'? You want an upgrade path? In that case it would be better to go with newer sockets...but if a 775 system plays games for cheaper than a 1366 system I'd get that and spend the money later on a new cpu/mobo...It's 2am here and I make no sense sorry.
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What power supply would you all suggest? Some online calculator said I'd need 400w for the i7/9800GTX+ build I randomly scoped out earlier today and that sounds a bit ludicrous. Note that noise is not an issue; it sounds like a jet anyway.
EDIT: Looks like I'll need to bust out the measuring tape for that GTX260. :) I can get everything cheaper at NewEgg except that video card, which is like $40 more before $20 rebate.
Damm, I overlooked the power supply. :confused: 650W minimum. Spikes recommendation is :aok
Another MB option.
MSI P43-C51 LGA 775 Intel P43 ATX Intel Motherboard DDR3, APS & EZ OC Switch
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130252 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130252)
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yeah AMD isn't really for everyone.
but i'm glad i'm not everyone else.
this chip(see sig) is still chuggin along fine.
:D
I am hijacking I guess, but what is the voltage you are running for the overclock and what are you using for cooling?
Okay, I see now 1.6 volts. Must be a temporary overclock.
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I am hijacking I guess, but what is the voltage you are running for the overclock and what are you using for cooling?
Okay, I see now 1.6 volts. Must be a temporary overclock.
4~5 hours of -75C/1.6v torture.
this thing is built like a tank. :aok
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Are AMD CPUs still like 60% ceramic? :D
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4~5 hours of -75C/1.6v torture.
this thing is built like a tank. :aok
What do you usually run at for a overclock during everyday use?
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Are AMD CPUs still like 60% ceramic? :D
LOL...you're thinking of the old AMD K5 and K6 series processors. No the new processors are built somewhat similar to Intel Pentium 4s, except they are 45nm rather than 60nm. Those memory timing issues from the old Nforce2 days are gone too, except for times when someone is pushing things beyond their capacity. Even though I generally prefer Intel chips, when I build the next system, it's going to be AMD and ATI. Hard to beat the $50 to $100 price difference between Intel and AMD.
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Are AMD CPUs still like 60% ceramic? :D
I'm not really all that keen on AMD (http://I'm not really all that keen on AMD)
You can get a e8400 for a little over a hundred.
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Damm, I overlooked the power supply. :confused: 650W minimum. Spikes recommendation is :aok
Another MB option.
MSI P43-C51 LGA 775 Intel P43 ATX Intel Motherboard DDR3, APS & EZ OC Switch
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130252 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130252)
I guess that my comp isn't 'smart'...I run two HD5770s, an OC'd Q9550, 2 HDD's 5 fans 4 LED's and a mem cooler on a 600W.... :o
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I'm not really all that keen on AMD (http://I'm not really all that keen on AMD)
You can get a e8400 for a little over a hundred.
Yeah, I could see that...$174 for an e8400 3.0Ghz versus $67 for an AMD Athlon II x2 3.1Ghz or AMD Phenom II x2 3.2Ghz for $99.
Flippin Wolfdale processors are still expensive... :( :cry ...would have thought the price would drop below $100 by now.
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The Athlon II processors are great little cheap ones...not sure how they are on gaming...maybe like gyrene mentioned a Phenom 2 or Phenom 4. Still cheap but more 'effective'.
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3d games aren't cpu-bound at higher resolutions.
even a $100 athlon ii x4 620 will be more than enough for AH2 (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/athlon-ii-propus,2414-7.html).
pair it with a 5870 and you will be able to max all settings 1920x1200.
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Yeah, I could see that...$174 for an e8400 3.0Ghz versus $67 for an AMD Athlon II x2 3.1Ghz or AMD Phenom II x2 3.2Ghz for $99.
Well it looks like 00Z is looking at Intel, I just making a suggestion and seems to be a very popular CPU here.
When I built my PC I was looking at Intel because of the problems AMD was having about 3 years ago. The price was to much for me to afford and went AMD and was using AMD before that. I have also used Intel also. Intel is a good processor.
I have to agree and to say if a person wants to save money AMD would be my answer. I have 2 pcs with AMD and i don't have any problems. The problems I do have is my OS needs to be refreshed, my PC runs kinda slow with XP. With WIndows 7, its fast,the OS is still fresh and not used alot.
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Q6600 for $120 (http://www.overclock.net/main-components/761803-fs-q6600-780i-ftw-ddr2-1066-a.html). look at forums, if you dont mind buying used.
(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6241/8400.jpg)
phelan1777 at xtremesystems is selling an E8400 for $115 shipped(you prolly can ask $100).
not sure if you have access to the for sale link though (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4428504&postcount=1).
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If it's got less than 200 hours on it and never been overclocked I might consider buying a used E or Q series Intel...for under $100.
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I am still reading these, guys. :) I've been pushed back until the beginning of next month for buying parts.
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As far as I'm concerned the best general overview for this is toms hardware, rarely have they steered me wrong. For low and mid end systems they go with AMD and I agree with them having built out a few.
Unless you go high end the AMC's are easily the better bang for the buck right now...same for ATI on GPU's. Here is the last Toms write up...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/overclock-cpu-gpu,2656.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/overclock-cpu-gpu,2656.html)
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There are deals at Newegg also. Look at the open box section, they give you 30 days to return. The way I read it is there is no warranty available from the manufacturer though. I run a 940BE AM+2 AMD and I paid a 103.00 from Newegg open box. Some of the open box cpu's go very fast.
I would imagine people buying the wrong cpu for the motherboard, whether it be the wrong socket or memory issue.
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I agree with cattb. For a budget PC (best bang for the buck) I'd go AMD any day. A lower end quad like the Athlon X4 630's run cheap (100) and higher end dual cores and quads are much cheaper than Intels.
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This isn't specifically a budget build. I'd more consider it an "average gamer." No SLi/CrossFire, no super top-end components, but not a bottom-of-the barrel system. Upgradability is a plus.
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Rgr...then I guess it's your choice what make you want to go with...775 is reaching the end of it's life...but you can always go from a E8400 to a Q9550 or something as an 'upgrade'...
AM3 is the latest AMD socket...so it'll be around a lot longer than 775 will...You can go with a Phenom dual core and later up to the Phenom quad 965's or even the AMD 6 cores.
If you go 1366 you are forced to get an i7-9xx, 1156 you are forced to go i5/i7-8xx. So there's a better 'upgrade' path for the future. I actually think the i5 might be a good route too.
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{snip}
AM3 is the latest AMD socket...so it'll be around a lot longer than 775 will...
{snip}
I'm not sure how much I'd want to count on any socket/motherboard as being a "sure thing compatibility-wise" beyond current processor offerings to begin with - but one think I do know for sure is that after the 939 debacle I'm very very very sure how much I "count" on AMD continuing to provide processors for any processor socket.
Exactly none.
<S>
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Amd has been working on a Bulldozer CPU, if it ever comes out could be a change of socket. Intel could decide to change thier socket in the future also. Hard to tell what either company will do as far as couple years from now.
Amd has built in memory controller so I would think eventually they will goto all ddr3, but this is just a guess.
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amd bulldozer is compatible with current mobos.
no change of socket, only BIOS update needed.
intel is changing sockets. surprise.
LGA1155(replacing LGA1156, 4Q 2010).
LGA2011(replacing LGA1366, 3Q 2011).
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I just upgraded from:
ASUS A8NE mobo
AMD dual core 4400 2ghz
2gig ram (DDR2)
nvidia 7800GT 256mb
(that machine lasted me 7 years.. only upgraded the vid card 3 years ago to that 7800)
to
MSI 870A-G54 mobo (cost about 80 bucks)
AMD quad core 3.2ghz phenom II black edition (160 bucks)
4gig ram (DD3) (about 100 bucks)
Nvidia GT240 (90 bucks)
for about 400 bucks total.
as long as you have your hard disk and a power supply of 500W+ you can do the same.
as for intel vs amd... its up to you.
for gaming the AMD performs the same as the intel for a LOT less money. and its a FACT that you will need to upgrade the cpu speed at least once every 5 years. So... why are you paying twice (or more) for an intel cpu that has a minimal performance advantage over the much less expensive AMD cpu when you will have to replace either of them in 5 years anyway? The money you save buying an AMD pays for the video card upgrade. its that big a difference.