Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dichotomy on July 16, 2010, 11:45:52 AM
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Something I never nailed down and didn't get around to studying is convergence settings on various plane models. I've messed around with 50's @ 300 and cannons at 325 to 350 on various frames and was never really satisfied. Name the plane, situation, and what your favorite convergence settings are please.
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P-38J and I leave the convergence on the default setting. No real need to set convergence on the Lightning.
ack-ack
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I enjoy the turny-birds, and often fly the Hurri with convergence set all the way down to 150.
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F4U-1, -1A, -1D & -4 all guns at 350. decent for close in and for reaching out to those guys trying to extend, puts enough hits on them to make them turn for me. Now if i didn't come across so many 1 pass and extend fights i would have them at 300, it was like buzz saws. If i know I'm going to be shooting at M3's, Wirbles, AA and other ground targets i'll extend it to 375.
-1C i have all at 325, but might extend them to 350-375 if i'm going to be shooting at grounds targets
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I like to fly with as much historical accuracy as possible. The USN standard recommendation from BuAer was to set them for 300 yards. However, especially aboard the carriers, it was up to the squadron CO to set the convergence. Unlike the Air Force, shipboard Navy pilots seldom got to fly "their" assigned airplane.
Now talking to BigHorn and some of the other top sticks, from their perspective it's best to set it close (200 or so) for everything.
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Default is 300, if in doubt move it closer and get closer to shoot.
Trying to shoot consistently at over 400 is mostly an exercise in futility.
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Just a lament here....
When I set my convergence down to 275-250, fly into a furball and start getting kills. It seems like the hoard suddenly decides to stay 600-1000 away from me. So I land and reset my convergence back to 300-350, go back pick some of the hoard at range and they all stay inside of 300 making me have to keep some distance from them. I..I..I..I WISH....we had a hotkey so on the fly we can reset our convergence in the air....dern I know...I know...gamey yes very gamey...can I have pheonix missles then..... :) :bolt:
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There are a few variables I try to take into account, I typically set my convergence somewhere between 300 and 400 since historically I've flown aircraft armed with a battery of .50 cal MG's. I also tend to fiddle with the setting a lot, more because I have a hard time leaving things be than any actually benefit in game. Back when I was flying the F6F more frequently I tended to set my guns to 375 because the icon range indicator skipped 300, it went 600, 400, 200 and I figured if I waited till I saw 400 then fired with a convergence of 350-375 I'd hit right at convergence (assuming I was closing).
These days I'm either in my beat and battered 38G where convergence matters less but I have it set to 400 anyway since I'm used to firing when I see 400 on the range indicator. Alternatively when I'm flying my even more war weary P-39D I have it set closer in (around 200) because I'm either firing the big 'ol 37mm which has a really low muzzle velocity and basically forces me to stick the gun in the cockpit if I want to hit with it or I'm stuck with two .50's and a handful of pea shooting .30's.
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Just a lament here....
When I set my convergence down to 275-250, fly into a furball and start getting kills. It seems like the hoard suddenly decides to stay 600-1000 away from me. So I land and reset my convergence back to 300-350, go back pick some of the hoard at range and they all stay inside of 300 making me have to keep some distance from them. I..I..I..I WISH....we had a hotkey so on the fly we can reset our convergence in the air....dern I know...I know...gamey yes very gamey...can I have pheonix missles then..... :) :bolt:
Go with multi convergences then? Primary at 250-275, secondarys at 300-350. A multi-tool is not as effective at killing at a machete, but its very handy at getting any job done.
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For me there are two considerations. Speed and distance between guns.
all wing only and wing/nose gun package combos get the following convergance
slow speed = 300
medium speed = 400
high speed = 500
All nose gun package only get max deflection 650
The zeros are the only planes I set deflection at 200
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P-38J and I leave the convergence on the default setting. No real need to set convergence on the Lightning.
ack-ack
that's something that confuses me sometimes.......i thought if you set the convergence out a little farther, that you were then "arcing" your rounds a little higher?
i have mine set at 400 on the cannon, and 450 on the guns.
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that's something that confuses me sometimes.......i thought if you set the convergence out a little farther, that you were then "arcing" your rounds a little higher?
i have mine set at 400 on the cannon, and 450 on the guns.
I've done the exact opposite, set the machine guns to 400 and the cannon at either 425 or 450 with the following reasoning (which I freely admit may be faulty, irrelevant, or both). The muzzle velocity of the cannon is going to be a little lower than the browning .50, with that in mind the cannon round is going to reach the target slightly after the machine gun round. If the plane is in a turn, "lofting" the cannon round a little bit more will give just a little more lead and hopefully mean it lands in same position as the MG's are.
*edits*
Upon further considerations there very well could be a mistake or two in my reasoning. :)
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I have pretty much everything set at 375. Except 30 & 37mms I set at 200. And never shoot until within 400...600 max.
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I have pretty much everything set at 375. Except 30 & 37mms I set at 200. And never shoot until within 400...600 max.
i have trouble with some of the bigger rounds. i was flying a 110 the other night, and saddled up a 38........i was leading him just where i lead when i'm flying the 38.....and missing......i kept adjusting my lead, but he augered by the time i think i got close.
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38s are hard to hit from a dead 6 position anyway. I have the best results using a deflection shot with the slim planes.
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38s are hard to hit from a dead 6 position anyway. I have the best results using a deflection shot with the slim planes.
You obviously haven't spent time behind mine then!
:lol
mir
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You obviously haven't spent time behind mine then!
:lol
mir
+1
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30mms on the 110 set at even a distance of 300 flat will arc a pretty decent amount, and compared to the rest of the guns mounted on the 110 has a very slow velocity. Personaly I can't stand how high they will arc at the close ranges when set at a convergence greater than 300... or their tendancy to drop like a brick if set to a convergence much closer than that.
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I've done the exact opposite, set the machine guns to 400 and the cannon at either 425 or 450 with the following reasoning (which I freely admit may be faulty, irrelevant, or both). The muzzle velocity of the cannon is going to be a little lower than the browning .50, with that in mind the cannon round is going to reach the target slightly after the machine gun round. If the plane is in a turn, "lofting" the cannon round a little bit more will give just a little more lead and hopefully mean it lands in same position as the MG's are.
*edits*
Upon further considerations there very well could be a mistake or two in my reasoning. :)e
very interesting theory honestly ive always thought about this too... since i fly the 109 alot, sometimes i think i should do what you have done.
Any input from the experts would be welcome
should i set my cannon conv. slight higher than the machine guns.
or could you rely on the round velocity as the indicator of this as well, is that a sound theory.
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very interesting theory honestly ive always thought about this too... since i fly the 109 alot, sometimes i think i should do what you have done.
Any input from the experts would be welcome
should i set my cannon conv. slight higher than the machine guns.
or could you rely on the round velocity as the indicator of this as well, is that a sound theory.
As was pointed out to me via PM there may be a flaw in my reasoning. A closer in convergence would in theory mean the gun would be elevated more in order to reach the convergence point, so I have had things backwards. :)
I also could have spent the last several years misunderstanding the range to target, this thread has been all kinds of educational. :lol
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There are a few variables I try to take into account, I typically set my convergence somewhere between 300 and 400 since historically I've flown aircraft armed with a battery of .50 cal MG's. I also tend to fiddle with the setting a lot, more because I have a hard time leaving things be than any actually benefit in game. Back when I was flying the F6F more frequently I tended to set my guns to 375 because the icon range indicator skipped 300, it went 600, 400, 200 and I figured if I waited till I saw 400 then fired with a convergence of 350-375 I'd hit right at convergence (assuming I was closing).
This is the conclusion that I've come to as well, and still "fly by". Works like a charm for the 51b for me :rock
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I likes
Tater birds (mk 108) 200 to 350 for the 30mm ..save the 262 I like 350 top and 500 bottom mk 108 batteries
Russian 37mm 400
never tried the Olds in the 39s so no comment
50s 300 to 400
Hispanos 300 to 400
Mg151/20 ( german 20mm ) 225
Mg/FF 225 as well ( early german 20mm)
Ho cannons ( jap ) 250 to 300
30cals set 225
Alot of shooting well involves setting up your shots more than convergence ( close range crossing shots rule in 30mm birds and are highly effective with most gun packs......more so than dead six spray and pray).....try to prepempt your enemies angles and arrive with your nose in a favorable position early by a few seconds. . Also try a dot of death or other uncluttered gunsight. These things have helped me enormously of late ( check out the help and training sections Grizz has some cool threads regarding shot setup and what not)
:salute
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The biggest factor with convergence is the psychological one. Set yours to 600 and you'll find yourself saddleing up at 600+ yards spraying and stuck at that 600 yard range. Set it to 300ish and you'll manuever to get in close before firing and your weapons will be much more effective. 3 football (American) fields is still a healthy distance.
This trick worked on my meger brain anyhow.
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As was pointed out to me via PM there may be a flaw in my reasoning. A closer in convergence would in theory mean the gun would be elevated more in order to reach the convergence point, so I have had things backwards. :)
Please share. I'm really curious/dubious about this theory.
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I was told 400 was a good convergence when i started. I've used it ever since.
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Please share. I'm really curious/dubious about this theory.
If I understood what he was saying correctly then I'll use an example that will hopefully make it clear. Picture a blank wall, on the wall mark a point with a pencil at roughly eye level. Get a lazer pointer, hold it at waist height and stand back 10 paces and make a note of how much an angle you have to hold the lazer pointer to put a dot on the sight. Now step forward so that you're only a couple feet from the wall and point the lazer pointer at the dot. In order to hit the convergence spot (the wall) you have to hold the pointer a higher elevation/angle the closer you are.
That's the thought at any rate, I'm going to have to do some testing next time I'm in the TA.
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I once extended my convergence all the way out to 200 yards for air-to-air. Man, that was way, way out there.
In attack mode, and typically in blue CV birds, I'll extend all the way out to maximum, then stagger the second and third guns at 100 yards between each. This seems to help me hit ack guns.
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30mms on the 110 set at even a distance of 300 flat will arc a pretty decent amount, and compared to the rest of the guns mounted on the 110 has a very slow velocity. Personaly I can't stand how high they will arc at the close ranges when set at a convergence greater than 300... or their tendancy to drop like a brick if set to a convergence much closer than that.
i'll try that next time. i had them set out a bit, as i was using it to straffe a vbase. the 38 came in, to stop our gv's, and that's probably the only reason i was able to saddle up on him. i don't fly the 110 for much besides ground attack........
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If I understood what he was saying correctly then I'll use an example that will hopefully make it clear. Picture a blank wall, on the wall mark a point with a pencil at roughly eye level. Get a lazer pointer, hold it at waist height and stand back 10 paces and make a note of how much an angle you have to hold the lazer pointer to put a dot on the sight. Now step forward so that you're only a couple feet from the wall and point the lazer pointer at the dot. In order to hit the convergence spot (the wall) you have to hold the pointer a higher elevation/angle the closer you are.
That's the thought at any rate, I'm going to have to do some testing next time I'm in the TA.
that kind of makes sense. i can see some of us trying that though, and lobbing our rounds right over the targets head at 400 though. :rofl
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I want to pause a moment and first say thanks for all of the info. There's a lot of stuff in here I'll be trying offline to see what fits me and my 'style' (flopping around badly and making a lovely target of myself) and also to point out to the very new guys that if you ask an intelligent question on this board the aces of the game both friend and foe will descend with their points of view. The old vets and the truly gifted flyers want you to get better because they love the challenge of a good fight.
Personally I can't wait till I get all my ducks back in a row and can help a new guy out to a point where I can pass him on to an ace or two I'm familiar with. Frankly that was one of my favorite parts of the game. Meeting a new guy in the TA, teaching him the basics of flight, playing target for him, teaching him the radio and the basic dot commands, etiquette, and then passing them on to a trainer when they passed my level of teaching.
USE the TA. These guys know what they're talking about. The trainer corps is a top notch group of people and they can help you.
Correct me if I'm wrong gents.
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Just a few planes that I often fly.
Temp/typh: 400
Fm2: 250
F4U: 300
10920mm: 200/centerline 250 pods
P47: 400
This unless i plan on strafing or attacking bombers almost exclusivley, in which case I often set at 400 regardless of the plane.
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In the P-51D I set convergence at D400. That way I am good out to about 800 on small aircraft due to the pattern closing at 400 the opening up after that. (at D800 the bullets are back the width of their starting point) On bombers I can start ripping them apart consistently starting at D1000, that is of course with a high rate of closure and aiming high. I have really good luck taking them down that way. Another favorite convergence is on the IL-2. After getting the advice on the forums I set them to D200. This combined with a high angle on the tank works like magic. Come down from high and start firing at D400 to D300 and stop at D200...pull up immediately. Tanks just cannot withstand this type of attack. I think everyone has to get used to their convergence setting decision. I have flown the simulator skies for quite a spell and practice with your settings is really what you need. :old:
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If I understood what he was saying correctly then I'll use an example that will hopefully make it clear. Picture a blank wall, on the wall mark a point with a pencil at roughly eye level. Get a lazer pointer, hold it at waist height and stand back 10 paces and make a note of how much an angle you have to hold the lazer pointer to put a dot on the sight. Now step forward so that you're only a couple feet from the wall and point the lazer pointer at the dot. In order to hit the convergence spot (the wall) you have to hold the pointer a higher elevation/angle the closer you are.
Dang almost sucked me in with that one. Had to think about it and do some research.
(http://members.cox.net/scmspam2/RSballistics.jpg)
In the image your laser line is the 'Line of Departure'. Notice the 'sight height' this is the same as the difference between your eye level and waist height your holding the level at; it is also equivalent to the height difference between the cockpit sight and gun mount location. The convergence setting is 'Zero' on the illustration. Assume a 6' sight height and 300yd range and the sight depression angle is a miniscule 0.4deg. Most importantly notice that the bullet trajectory is downward shortly after 'Mid-Range Height'.
Think about setting the Zero point out to 400 yds. The line of departure would have to be raised to compensate for additional bullet drop in order to intercept the level line at 400 yds. The mid-range height would now be at 200yds. Meaning that you are lofting your shells higher with a longer convergance setting.
Back to way your example is so seductive. Move the Zero point in along the sight line. The line of departure would have to be lowered the closer you got, up to the point that the trajectory is tangent to the sight line. After that (like in your example) the line of departure would have to be raised as Zero got closer because the bullet is still on a rising trajectory. The range to that tangent point depends on Sight height, depression angle, and bullet trajectory all of which vary with the various airframes, but I'm willing to bet is closer then we usually engage at.
I'd be intersted to find out about the actual mechanics of setting convergence and sight depression on our a/c. I'm think'n its a lot easier to level the plane (usually a somewhat abriturary but consistant reference like seat/canopy rails, engine rails, marked rivet heads on fuselauge...) set the target out at the convergence distance then adjust the guns to hit it and adjust sight depression to match. Notice in this method the zero point (target) moves along the level line. And the bullets would never hit on a upward trajectory.
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well I did a little hands on research tonight and found that I hit more successfully with my convergence set at 200. I was getting good and consistent hits at 400 to 0 which, thus far, is much better than I was doing with it set to 300. Of course I only flew the Spit VIII and the Pony but it was working for me. I'll try a couple of different airframes tomorrow. Thanks gents.
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on the A6Ms i set the Type99s to somewhere between 300-450 yards depending on what i am fighting and the type of fight i'm in. the mgs i keep set to 500 because they are set in the fuselage and theres no need to set the convergence of them.
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Doright,
your chart shows a real life trajector with rounds converging at 200,but if you notice the trajectory also crosses the line of sight at what looks like 43 yards and according to some LW balistic graphs it show about that same thing only the convergence was at 400 IIRC for the LW graph.
However Hitech has stated that they modeled the convergence to rise to the center of the pipper at convergence range.
Now if this is the case the lazer annology would be correct. However I'm not 100% sure if this is the case or not and it's been a personal quest to find the correct answer.
You can test this yourself,using center mounted guns,like on a P38 move convergence in as close as you can and use the dot target command and usual auto pilot to stablize the A/C. Then set target to 100 and move it out at 50 yard intervals and see if in fact the rounds dont strike abit high as you move the target away.
Now there will come a point at which they should start to drop again,as they have a balistic curve.
So I might be wrong with this and would like to hear one way or another what others think and maybe Hitech can correct any misimformation that I have stated.
:salute
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Doright,
your chart shows a real life trajector with rounds converging at 200,but if you notice the trajectory also crosses the line of sight at what looks like 43 yards and according to some LW balistic graphs it show about that same thing only the convergence was at 400 IIRC for the LW graph.
However Hitech has stated that they modeled the convergence to rise to the center of the pipper at convergence range.
Now if this is the case the lazer annology would be correct. However I'm not 100% sure if this is the case or not and it's been a personal quest to find the correct answer.
You can test this yourself,using center mounted guns,like on a P38 move convergence in as close as you can and use the dot target command and usual auto pilot to stablize the A/C. Then set target to 100 and move it out at 50 yard intervals and see if in fact the rounds dont strike abit high as you move the target away.
Now there will come a point at which they should start to drop again,as they have a balistic curve.
So I might be wrong with this and would like to hear one way or another what others think and maybe Hitech can correct any misimformation that I have stated.
:salute
... but I'm willing to bet is closer then we usually engage at.
Well glad I didn't place that bet.
I did what you suggested using the B25 because of its significant sight height but still close to inline. With the convergence set at 150 the bullets kept rising above the piper after 150yds then falling below again much further away. With a convergence of 600 the bullets where arcing back down before they got to the piper at 600yds. The in between land of a convergence of 300 the trajectory became pretty flat and the rise/fall of the bullets relative to the piper was less then the dispersion. So for the 50cal the convergence setting doesn't make much vertical difference in the mid-range. Other weapons probably differ significantly.
Moral of the story, the illustration I posted is correct (disregarding the range values). The important question is for a certain weapon and airframe at what convergence (zero) is the trajectory curve tangent to the sight line. At convergence settings shorter then that mystery range the rounds will continue upward for awhile after passing through the piper. For longer convergence settings the rounds will be coming back down to the piper. You might even think of it as for a certain departure angle (gun mount elevation) there may be 2 convergence ranges. 1 if your set right on the tangent range. (0 if the armourer depressed the gun).
Suggestion to see what happens to lesser rounds then the .50cal?
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I use a 450 yard convergance on the F6F. Reducing the range does not doesn't help as much on close shots as keeping it long helps on the longer shots. I particularly enjoy picking off bnzers from below as they try and rope me. The F6F's excellent low speed control lets me keep adjusting aim at very low prop hanging speeds. As the roper is also slow I don't need to lead them much and can hit him at longer ranges. The long convergance lets me do more damage, its pretty easy to saw the wing off a Spit at 600-700 yards.
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Soulyss your original theory was correct, and I've used that very successfully with larger cannons for years. 20mm's 25 - 50 farther than MG's. 30 and 37mm will take a bit more 50 - 100 longer.
Morfiend the problem is thus. Hitech stated that the vertical convergence is there, and is set for a plane at Zero airspeed and altitude.
Once you move the speed up to 300 + that changes things. In fact the faster you are the less Vert convergience you'll see. Which is why esp in the lower powered German cannons at faster speeds (190d9, 109k4, etc) doesn't seem to have any vertical convergence.
Here is a shot of a 109k4 firing only 30mm. Convergience set to 650, Target at 150, and shot at fairly slow speed to get as much rise as possible.
(http://www.332nd.org/dogs/Ghosth/30mm650.bmp)
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-1C i have all at 325, but might extend them to 350-375 if i'm going to be shooting at grounds targets
psshhh vulcher :/
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...Hitech stated that the vertical convergence is there, and is set for a plane at Zero airspeed and altitude.
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Once you move the speed up to 300 + that changes things. In fact the faster you are the less Vert convergience you'll see. Which is why esp in the lower powered German cannons at faster speeds (190d9, 109k4, etc) doesn't seem to have any vertical convergence.
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I think you're throwing the angle of attack needlessly into the picture. The .Target target is centered on the aircraft's altitude and always due N of the plane. As you slow down you increase the angle of attack, so the piper rises against the target. The plane and target are still at the same altitude just sight line and departure line has changed. The departure line of the bullet is raised by the same amount as the angle of attack. But since the departure line and piper both move the same amount the impact at a range relative to the piper stays the same. So speed doesn't really affect convergence. Don't believe it throw out some flaps and maintain alt and speed. Your angle of attack goes down to keep in level flight, so the piper drops on the target. The speed is the same, and the bullets will hit at the same distance from the piper just lower on the target. So speed has no effect on convergence.
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Question, how am I adding angle of attack into the picture?
Yes as you slow the pipper rises, but your bullet stream rises with it.
What I'm saying as you SPEED UP, your bullets are dealing with a 300 + mph headwind.
That changes their trajectory.
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Question, how am I adding angle of attack into the picture?
Yes as you slow the pipper rises, but your bullet stream rises with it.
What I'm saying as you SPEED UP, your bullets are dealing with a 300 + mph headwind.
That changes their trajectory.
So try it. Keep your 650 convergence and 150 target, just change your speed. Your picture will only change in the location of target rings, the bullet strikes relative to the piper stay the same. (edited from here on) The target set at 150yds doesn't really show the effect you where going for.
Using a 650 convergence and 650 target. The cannon rounds do have increased drop as the speed increased. At 250mph it was noticeable that the rounds where falling below rather then at the piper, at 325mph it was quit a bit below. Very interesting.
(http://members.cox.net/scmspam2/ahss89.jpg)
The lowest shot grouping is at 325mph, significantly below the piper. At slow speeds the shots hit the piper higher on the target.
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.50s, everything except FM2 400, FM2 250
20mm, 225 except N1K, split 250/300
30mm, 200
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The IJN Hade the niki convergence at 600 :O
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I will post more on this subject later, but after a long talk with Hitech on Friday I feel confident I can explain how the convergence works.
As I understand the explanation, setting you convergence in the hanger is setting the convergence point (both horizontally and vertically) for zero altitude and zero airspeed. So airspeed will play an important part in changing the hit pattern you see when you use the ".target" command.
Also and this is an important point, do not use the auto-pilot (either level/angle/speed) for testing as it will not give you a true shot grouping picture. The best way to use the .target command is to fly it manually with combat-trim off.
And one last tip, I discovered, you can set the .target command for single digit ranges. This gives you the ability to check out a few interesting views (see below).
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/SightQuestion/Corsair1a.jpg)
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/BBS%20Stuff/SightQuestion/Corsair2a.jpg)
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I was told 400 was a good convergence when i started. I've used it ever since.
if it works for you, then that is what you should use....... everyone should test and learn what works best for them.....
both USAAF & USN/USMC had a limit 600 yards maximum..... anything hit beyond 600 yards was just luck..... ( it is in the USAAR & USN/USMC fighter gunnery & Buff Gunners WWII Training Manuals )
Soulyss your original theory was correct, and I've used that very successfully with larger cannons for years. 20mm's 25 - 50 farther than MG's. 30 and 37mm will take a bit more 50 - 100 longer.
Yep....... tested & verified for years
Hitech stated that the vertical convergence is there, and is set for a plane at Zero airspeed and altitude.
Once you move the speed up to 300 + that changes things. In fact the faster you are the less Vert convergience you'll see.
Yep.......
also, as discussed with Baumer recently..... it is prefered that manually flying and having a Properly Trimmed Aircraft when doing Convergence/Guns Testing ...... players should not rely on Auto-Pilot or use Combat Trim because of the differences these settings have on the different aircraft....
but we all know everyone thinks they are right in their own mind, and will argue til the cows come home......
as for my personal preference, my "Mental Sight Picture" is to hit when the plane size is a certian "SIZE" in my view when I fire my guns...... or when i am executing a deflection shot, etc...... which is how i have practiced using my guns converging at 350 in almost every plane in the game...... ( outside of the 25 yrds further out on cannons for cannon/mg mix like on the P38 )
quit using the icon distance and start developing a mental picture in your mind of what the plane size/shape is when you connect with hits...... this is what one should be practicing..... forget the icon distance counter is there....... ( no, I am not advocating we fly with no icons )
for what it is worth......
edit: Baumer beat me to it :D, but what Baumer posted above :aok
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"Using a 650 convergence and 650 target. The cannon rounds do have increased drop as the speed increased. At 250mph it was noticeable that the rounds where falling below rather then at the piper, at 325mph it was quit a bit below."
Emmm isn't that what I said?
Thanks for proving my point for me.
As to the other I think it was a matter of us both saying the same thing but in 2 totally different ways.
My wife and I do that all the time.
TY baumer, as always your posts are informative and thought provoking!
<S> TC good to see you following this and keeping me on track.
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And one last tip, I discovered, you can set the .target command for single digit ranges. This gives you the ability to check out a few interesting views (see below).
This screen shot explains a lot!
(http://members.cox.net/scmspam2/ahss90.jpg)
"Emmm isn't that what I said?
Thanks for proving my point for me.
Yep. I listened, tested, learned something, then passed it on. I hope I just illustrated the point a bit better.
As for the ex-wife, she hated step two. How dare I to not just except her dicta!
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For those that are interested... I took the time to put together some screen-shots of the effect different convergence settings have on trajectory. Particularly with wing-mounted guns, having the convergence set too close can cause some pretty serious misses, and can have almost the opposite effect some people would expect.
The last few posts of this thread-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html
As far as cannon rounds and MG rounds hitting the same place at different times... I think a lot of that has been "over-thunk". In a case where the target has no apparent motion (dead-six or HO) the small time difference doesn't matter, and it would probably be best if all of your rounds hit the target, rather than having some hit high or low (although the difference in actual trajectory may not be enough to matter, either, I'd have to check).
In cases where the target has apparent motion (crossing shots or shots where you're pulling lead) it's just plain impossible for a cannon round and a machine gun round fired at the same time to hit the same target, because the lead required is based on timing, much more than on trajectory. The cannon round will require more lead, because the round takes longer to get there, allowing the target to move further to the side. In order to pull the required lead for the cannons, the mg rounds will pass in front of the target.
Setting cannon rounds out an additional 50-75 yards effects their vertical trajectory by inches, or a foot or two at most. That's not enough to allow for the difference in timing.... If the target is moving to the side at an apparent 120mph, and the cannon round takes 1/2 second longer than the mg round to arrive, the cannon round will pass roughly 90 feet behind the target (assuming the mg round has the correct lead to achieve hits).
It gets worse if the difference in time between impact gets longer, or the apparent side/side speed of the target increases.
There's nothing you can do with convergence settings to allow for that.
If there was... You'd still have to fire while your wings are level and at 1G to make it work.
As soon as you tilt your wings to the side, the apparent gravity changes, and instead of the rounds being pulled "down" (which is compensated for with the vertical tilt of the mounted guns) they're pulled to the side and down, or just to the side (if you're knife-edged), or even up and to the side or straight up (if you fire while inverted)... All the effects of which are (A) not compensated for at all, or (B) made worse by the fact that the guns are mounted with an upward tilt to compensate for gravity in wings-level firing.
Think about it for a minute... What happens to the trajectory curve when you roll the plane on it's back and fire? It reverses, which has the effect of making all of your rounds appear to hit extremely high from your upside-down perspective.
When you fire while tilted to the side (to the left in this example), the guns no longer have enough vertical tilt to compensate for gravity, so the rounds hit low. Plus, the guns which started out with an upward cant, not have a left cant instead, which makes them go left. So now they're firing left and low, but we're not done. The guns are also canted inward to meet at convergence. That means that in a left bank, the guns in the right wing are tilted downward, adding to the apparent effect of gravity, making them go even lower. But the guns in the left wing are canted upward to some extent now, making the rounds fly "flatter" than the rounds from the right wing. We're not done yet. Add in the fact that if you're firing while banked, most people are firing while pulling more than 1G... Eeeks!
And extending the convergence for the cannons by 50-75 yards is supposed to overcome all of that?
Of course, there's still more at play here.
Sometimes we fire while climbing or diving... That makes the trajectory of the rounds flatten out. The greatest trajectory is seen in a horizontal shot, the least is seen in a vertical shot. Rounds that are launched straight up or down won't have any trajectory curve at all (until the upward-fired round stops and falls back). This means that if you fire directly at the guy roping you, while you're vertical, you'd better aim "low" or you'll miss him! Imagine the trajectory curve of a bullet fired while you're vertical. The round will pass through the LoS earlier than "normal", and will never come back "down" through it.
And, toss in the effects that different speeds and altitudes play...
We can't compensate for all of those factors (if any??) with convergence settings. We compensate for it by firing a stream of bullets/cannon rounds, and allow our target to fly through it. Or get the lead right for either your MG's or cannons, and do the best you can. And we compensate for it by doing the best we can to fire while at 1G, and with wings as level as possible, or at least to mentally compensate for the inability of our mechanical devices to compensate for the situation we're currently in...
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Also...
The icon change occurs at-
You see "D200" = the bad guy is somewhere between 100-299yards from you.
D400 = 300-499 yards from you.
D600 = 500-699 yards from you.
The "D" range is the mid-point of the distance spanned by the icon...
That means there are 2 "sweet-spots" for setting convergence, where you'll briefly "know" your target is at convergence range.
One is at 300yds. If you're closing on your target, as the icon changes from D400 to D200, fire. He's at convergence... Personally, I set mine at 275 to allow for my closure, and it makes it easy for me to get quick kills.
Another is at 500 yards. You can't get your convergence to match the other icon-switch ranges of 99yds, 700yrds, 900yds, etc...
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html
Excellent post mtnman. Its seems we're beating on a dead horse, that I'm sure probably has a long history of domesticated animal volience on these boards.
No wait I think I saw it twitch. Carry on.
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I set everything to 650 yards except 7.9mm's, .303's, MGFF's and Rusian and Japanese cannons. On the planes that have those guns I set them at 450 yards then pull any others in to 450 also (for instance all the spits with .303's also have the Hispanos set to 450 but in the XVI everything is set to 650).
I like long convergences. My hit% is still usually between 10-13%. You just have to line up and use short bursts until you're hitting.
Last night I removed the wing from a 190 who was diving to pork one of our fields from between 600-800 yards with a 190A-8 with the big gun package. Just a little burst will do ya... taters took care of the rest.
I see it this way; Looking at a plane with wing mounted guns, at twice the convergence distance, the bullet spread is about the same as the distance between the guns on the plane. Since the best guns in the game can kill at, but not beyond 1000 yards, then with convergence set at 500, the bullet spread would equal the gun spread at 1000 yards. Because I want maximum lethality at my furthst ranges and 650 is the farthest I can set convergence, I do. At those very long distances I want as many bullets hitting in about he same area as I can get because their velocity is diminished.
This means that at 1000 yards, my bullets still haven't spread to the distance between the guns on my plane and I'm still effectively converged out to 7-800 (hitting about the same spot on my target).
At distances closer than about 450-500 I might be more spread than someone with shorter convergence, but my bullet velocity is still high enough to compensate for fewer bullets hitting together. Besides that, up to my convergence (650 yards), my pattern is narrowing. Even if I spread the fuselage and hit both wing roots at close distances I'm doing good damage. What I often see is one side hitting a wing while the other side hits the cockpit.
Anyway, that's my theory and settings. It works for me.
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Its seems we're beating on a dead horse, that I'm sure probably has a long history of domesticated animal volience on these boards.
It's fun to discuss though, hehe!
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On all planes with .50s in the wings (mustang, corsair, F6F, ect) I have 425 inboard 400 middle, and 375 outboard. The P-47 is the same except the inboard guns are at 450, and the rest as above.
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I need a 50 cal shotgun with, full, modified, and skeet chokes!~ :neener:
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all guns in the game set to 300.
works ok i guess.
froger