Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Fatboy26 on July 20, 2010, 10:23:56 PM
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Lately I've been obnoxiously adding a request for the 410 to every post where it remotely fit into the subject matter. Decided instead of trying to squeak my way around wishing for it, I've recently been trying to research variants and service history. Does anyone have or know of a reliable source for information. Here is what I have so far:
There were approximately 1160 aircraft built before production was canceled to build more 109s. I don't know if this includes the 267 210Cs built in Hungary, (Upgraded to 410 structural and control surface standards but with lesser engines). No source I have found lists any production numbers for the various A and B variants. Top speed for the A variant was approximately 388mph using 1726hp DB603A engines, the B was 392 with 1900 hp DB603G engines. About half of the sources say the B model was "supposed" to have the DB603Gs, but actually had the 603As, Making the B identical to the A.
I have not found 2 sources that list the same armaments for the 410B-2/U4. (I love bomber destroyers) All sources agree that a Bk5 50mm cannon was equipped. One source said the factory 20mm and 12.7mm were removed and replaced with two 30mm's, while another says the standard 20mm and 12.7mm were still in the nose and two 30mm's were in the ventral tray with the Bk5. I found one sight that listed the field modifications (410B-2/U4 R#) with as many as four extra 20mm in the tray with the Bk5. One listing had the original armament (Bk5, 2x20mm, 2x12.7mm) and two Mk 108's and two Mk 103's
As far as other additional ordnances, I've heard multiple reports of different WGr-21 configurations. None of the sources I've found list the rockets as used ordinance in the aircraft stats. One source says as many as six WGr's were on the wings, others say four, but this is all in the narratives not listed with official stats. I know the rotary launcher was a failure and never fielded. I can't find the source now but IRC 410's and 110's even used R4M's somewhat successfully in a last ditch defense of Ploesti oil facilities.
I'd also like to find at least some combat statistics. The closest I've gotten was "the Me410 achieved substantial successes against unescorted Allied bombers, but were easily defeated by the more nimble Allied single engine fighters once long range escorts were available." I'd like to know approximately how many bombers were downed by 410's (I know # of kills claimed and actual kills made rarely match but a number is better than "substantial".) Was the 410 ever successful against Allied fighters?
The ridiculously large military aircraft encyclopedia I have lists the generic info. Wiki is not reliable, and no other net sites I have found seem to be since they all differ on some specifics. The library at the university I work for just has two books on Messerschmitt aircraft and the information in those books is not really detailed. Regardless of if the 410 in modeled in game or not, I still would like to find reasonably accurate and specific info.
Thanks for any help, and I'm horrible at grammar and spelling so, enjoy grammar police, enjoy.
A8Fatboy
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There's usually a thread like this one every 6 months, just like the Beaufighter, the A-26, the Comet, the Helldiver, and all of the German gadget planes that are in IL-2 1946. Try doing a search and I'm sure you'll find one.
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Stoney,
With all due respect, I've searched until I was blue in the face. I may have been searching wrong. 100's of requests for the 410 but not much additional information. Don't get me wrong, this is not a request for the plane to be added, already did that in wishlist. I'm generally interested in the history of the a/c and am just asking help in research. I've found some neat tidbits, such as an article explaining why the Russians wanted to capture one so bad just to get a look at the remote gun turrets. Found some nice cockpit photos from a post way back in 2000 that I didn't see earlier on the warbirdsresearch site. Just need a point in the direction of some more detailed information.
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This is the last thread on the 410. It got started about the same time as our best Beaufighter thread. About year ago. There are others going back a long ways :)
I wouldn't disagree that the 410 might be a decent addition to AH at some point.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,257559.0.html
The Luftwaffe guys might point you in the right direction. My LW stuff doesn't have much on the 410
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Was the 410 ever successful against Allied fighters?
I know a number of claims were made for P-38s. IIRC one Mossie fighter was lost to a 410.
Edit - An Me 410 intruder from KG 51 also claimed a Spitfire in 1944.
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This is the last thread on the 410. It got started about the same time as our best Beaufighter thread. About year ago. There are others going back a long ways :)
I wouldn't disagree that the 410 might be a decent addition to AH at some point.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,257559.0.html
The Luftwaffe guys might point you in the right direction. My LW stuff doesn't have much on the 410
too bad that topic is mostly about the mossie and when and how many of them were killed
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Moot had some posts in one of those past Me410 threads where he showed pictures and diagrams of all the 410 ordnance configurations. Include Moot in your search parameters, as he had the majority of the really detailed information.
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Thanks Stoney,
You were right. Found this one http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261828.0.html which has a ton of stats from moot. I also found some of the combat service and Zerstorer unit info I was looking for. Found a neat debate on how Eduard Tratt actually got shot down. Need to do more reading.
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I'm generally interested in the history of the a/c and am just asking help in research. I've found some neat tidbits, such as an article explaining why the Russians wanted to capture one so bad just to get a look at the remote gun turrets. Found some nice cockpit photos from a post way back in 2000 that I didn't see earlier on the warbirdsresearch site. Just need a point in the direction of some more detailed information.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5386852-messerschmitt-me-410
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Messerschmitt-Me-210-Me-410-Hornisse-Hornet/Peter-Petrick/e/9781857802719
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Fatboy, pm me your e-mail and I will send you the manual on the Me-410/U4.
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I'd love to see the 410, A and B. Should only be a question of skins and differences in available weapons loadouts, and the A would be available Mid-War.
Won't turn for much wit dem itty-bitty little wings, but would be fun nonetheless.
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Should turn a little better than the P-38, based on wing loading.
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Should turn a little better than the P-38, based on wing loading.
Oh boy...
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Should turn a little better than the P-38, based on wing loading.
ummm.......
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Fatboy, pm me your e-mail and I will send you the manual on the Me-410/U4.
Oh pick me pick me! Or maybe just host it on a file sharing sight for us? Please.
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The P-38 has Fowler flaps that increase the wing area when deployed, the 410's flaps are conventional. So I'd guess the 38 would turn a bit better than the 410, at least when the fight slows down a bit.
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Well, this is based on Wiki data:
Wingloading on max take-off weight: ME410: 63,5 lbs/sqft, P38L: 66 lbs/sqft, FW190A8: 54 lbs/sqft
Powerloading on max engine power on max take-off weight: ME410: 0,14 PS/lbs, P38L: 0,16 HP/lbs, FW190A8: 0,185 PS/lbs
This kind of numers a rather vaque, however, since the max weights do not list the loadout so they could be quite far from typical weights but should give a ballpark of the airframe performance (also listed the FW190 for shts 'n giggles).
-C+
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The P-38 has Fowler flaps that increase the wing area when deployed, the 410's flaps are conventional. So I'd guess the 38 would turn a bit better than the 410, at least when the fight slows down a bit.
Not necessarily. Wingloading, powerloading, flap type, etc. are merely single characteristics of the aircraft. Taken out of the appropriate context, they are meaningless when comparing aircraft.
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I was careful to say "I'd guess". :D
The point I was trying to make was that the wing loading figures given for the P-38 would be with the flaps retracted. With them deployed the wing area is significantly increased and if the wing area goes up, the wing loading goes down.
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Been doing a lot more reading up on it. As far as performance, in the bbs link I posted earlier moot has some charts comparing wing/power loading. I wouldn't expect the 410 to out perform any fighter. There are records of 410's killing Allied fighters, but most are controversial. For example Eduard Tratt is said to have killed 5 P-38's in a 410A, 3 of them in one day. Luftwaffe records don't exactly match U.S. records on that.
As far as the Bk5 goes, I'm finding that there were some successes against bombers with it, but that the 6 or even 8 mg151 configurations were preferred for Destroyer sorties. The majority of the 410's with the Bk5 were sent to the eastern front for ground attack in an attempt to delay the Russians. Eventually some on the Bk5's were replaced with a 40mm due to malfunctions and ammo capacity. I still haven't found any 100% trustworthy sources (haven't ordered books yet), but I'm piecing together the common information on the sites that I've found.
As far as the 410's overall participation in the war, from what I've read, if the 210 did not have the structural and flight problems, the 210/410 would have completely replaced the 110 and played a much larger role. But due to the delays in development, the 410 was doomed to play a smaller role and be set aside for larger numbers of smaller fighters.
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I was careful to say "I'd guess". :D
The point I was trying to make was that the wing loading figures given for the P-38 would be with the flaps retracted. With them deployed the wing area is significantly increased and if the wing area goes up, the wing loading goes down.
I wasn't trying to be obtuse. Lately we've had some serious :huh threads where folks are taking these types of comparisons and running with them, so I suppose I'm over sensitive.
:salute
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I probably should start a new thread for this. Does anyone know how the guns are modeled on the 110G2? For example I'm assuming the 4 Mg151 is modeled as 2 in the nose an 2 in the ventral tray, is the 2 Mg151 modeled as 2 in the nose or two in the ventral? I've read that the two in the nose were removed at one point to improve balance.
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As far as the Bk5 goes, I'm finding that there were some successes against bombers with it, but that the 6 or even 8 mg151 configurations were preferred for Destroyer sorties.
The 8 cannon 410 was a single plane customized to that configuration.The loadouts available on this plane are incredible,4x30mm ans 2x20mm or my fav the 2xmk103 30mm 2 or 4 20mm plus the mg's. I believe Moot determined the 6x20mm carried 1700 rds of cannon ammo.
:salute