Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Plawranc on July 30, 2010, 04:18:00 PM
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As all of you guys know I am not exactly new and have been here a really long time, and I would consider myself in at least the top 100 of people who Fly AH.
But recently in 1v1's I am being beaten by people with about 9 months flying experience because they are using a tactic that I have never been able to master. Somehow or other people flying Spits are able to keep their energy while fighting by entering this kind of flat turn. I do not know how this works and can someone please help me out.
Would really appreciate it.
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You referred to this as "E fighting" yet you then generically described the maneuver as a 'flat turn' which is not E fighting. Additional details are needed or film. Otherwise only guesses and speculation can be offered...
As a general rule of thumb, if you don't have the E to follow a bandit up, it is usually always better to break off away from him, and gain separation before initiating a low yo-yo reversal attempt. Better than sitting there flopping your wings as he comes down on top of you and blasts you out of the sky.
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Any chance there's some film we could take a look at?
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Sounds like the other person is doing a shallow Low Yo-Yo to gain some extra energy at the merge to follow you up in the vertical.
ack-ack
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As all of you guys know I am not exactly new and have been here a really long time, and I would consider myself in at least the top 100 of people who Fly AH.
Please dispense with your ego whacking in the help section, thank you.
If you've been here such a long time you should know that the flat turn lufbery is what most spit drivers use when they get in trouble. It's tough to get out of, so don't follow the turn if things are getting slow.
As a general rule of thumb, if you don't have the E to follow a bandit up, it is usually always better to break off away from him, and gain separation before initiating a low yo-yo reversal attempt. Better than sitting there flopping your wings as he comes down on top of you and blasts you out of the sky.
Top 100. :lol
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As all of you guys know I am not exactly new and have been here a really long time, and I would consider myself in at least the top 100 of people who Fly AH.
But recently in 1v1's I am being beaten by people with about 9 months flying experience because they are using a tactic that I have never been able to master. Somehow or other people flying Spits are able to keep their energy while fighting by entering this kind of flat turn. I do not know how this works and can someone please help me out.
Would really appreciate it.
Maybe these guys who are beating you are in the top 99 of aces high :D You have to send HTC cash to move up the rankings
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Pacman, I took a look at your score and stats - and I don't see a large number of death's to Spitfire's. Do you mean 1v1 as in duels in the DA, or do you mean 1v1 as in "flying in the MA and chance on another Spit"?
If it's the DA, then I'd ask the pilot who's killing you how he did it - and of course, film it and view it from both sides.
If it's the MA, then personally, I wonder if what may be happening is that you are good enough that losing to another pilot in what is obviously is your plane is a bit of shock. Some of the better pilots are good at hiding their energy, and making it appear as though they aren't nearly as fast as they are - are they doing a climbing spiral as you engage?
And of course, filming it and viewing it works in the MA too.
<S>
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Looks like someone in the top 100 has gotten ze pwn laid on them.
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As all of you guys know I am not exactly new and have been here a really long time, and I would consider myself in at least the top 100 of people who Fly AH.
But recently in 1v1's I am being beaten by people with about 9 months flying experience because they are using a tactic that I have never been able to master. Somehow or other people flying Spits are able to keep their energy while fighting by entering this kind of flat turn. I do not know how this works and can someone please help me out.
Would really appreciate it.
:headscratch:
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Looks like someone in the top 100 has gotten ze pwn laid on them.
and by a 9 month n00b in a Spitfire using a simple low yo you on the merge. Maybe proclaiming to be "One of the Top 100 Experten pilots in AH" was a tad overly optimistic by the OP.
ack-ack
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Without film its all speculation however here is my "best guess"
If we go back a ways the standard dueling merge was basically the "rocketman" dive for the weeds merge..
Out of that came what I call the "rudder slap" (as DMF then, leviathon last I knew) used to give me the beat down with back when I was a trainer and we were fooling around. Over the last few years as dueling continues to evolve as a separate skill set the need to better disguise your lead turn has led to a flatter out of plane response to the "classic" rocketman merge. Your not getting "out E'd" your getting beat at angles with an out of plane lead turn that couples a dive and zoom....in effect he's coming into the merge slower and a bit higher using a low yoyo (which to you is "flat") that lets him set his angles early and then unload the airframe and zoom up in pursuit.
This is actually very similar to the typical "he turned around at 450 and climbed up tail the haxxor" when the reality is no he had some alt and position and performed a vertical lead turn and zoomed up into you.
When you see what I always called the Creton merge you need to quickly decide one of the following
1) rotate 45 degree's away from his turn and unload the airframe in a best climb, this is the safe counter that forces him to go the long way (270 degree's) and maximizes your time to evaluate relative E state...but you are conceding he somehow got angles so your now converting to an E fight but may or may not actually be +E
2) completely dirty up, rudder skid and chop looking to keep a skidding flat turn into him from the over position. Here your aggressively attacking what is more then likely an accelerating merge. Your going for an immediate win or die rolling scissors taking the middle game out of the fight. It's over one way or the other in 20 seconds or less.
3) Break away but mirror and cirlce back setting up a two circle merge (figure 8) where your managing front aspect intersection. This sets up a type of fight that a lot of players don't see a lot and not only provides an opportunity for the one fight but in a "best of" duel can take your opponent completely out of his favorite merge if you beat him the 1st time...
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Sounds alot like Badboy style E fighting. He gains very large E advantages just by flat-turning a specific way, a way I've yet to come close to mastering. While some may think the style is lame, it is very effective if utilised correctly, and must be respected.
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Keyword is Spits,
They hold E, had one do a 180 and catch my 262 at 400mph, that wasnt fun. What I do with spits is draw them up into a climbing circle trying to get them to stall out under you, works best with an F4U.
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Keyword is Spits,
They hold E, had one do a 180 and catch my 262 at 400mph, that wasnt fun. What I do with spits is draw them up into a climbing circle trying to get them to stall out under you, works best with an F4U.
A climbing lufberry F4U vs Spit? That makes no sense to me - anything newer than the Spit V has a something close to 1000 fpm climb rate advantage - if not 2000 or more. Unless you have way more E than he does (or unless maybe you mean you do this when you're in the -4???) and can end the fight in less than 60 seconds, he's going to pretty quickly even up E states and then catch you as try to break off.
Do you have a film of how you do this I could watch?
<S>
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Here is how I do it.
If the con (p51) is diving on you. You break into a flat turn with nose down just a bit. At this point it has to do with gaining E and Not letting the other guy get the shot. Do not try for gun solution.
As he begins to fire you barrel rolls under his nose in the blind spot. Just enough to make him miss.
As the 51 is going over the top or reversing you want then turn back into him. Closing the distance that he is using to build up e. turn only hard enough to get back into a new merge. Think in terms of losing less e than him. that is how you are gaining it. After a few flat turns with nose down you will start to equal e states
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A climbing lufberry F4U vs Spit? That makes no sense to me - anything newer than the Spit V has a something close to 1000 fpm climb rate advantage - if not 2000 or more. Unless you have way more E than he does (or unless maybe you mean you do this when you're in the -4???) and can end the fight in less than 60 seconds, he's going to pretty quickly even up E states and then catch you as try to break off.
Do you have a film of how you do this I could watch?
<S>
Here is how it was described to me, I think, I am not effective at it unless the spit gets tired of chasing me breaks off then I turn around and shoot him.
Let the spit get to 1.5 k out neither closing or getting further away. Start pulling up gently when the icon changes to plus pull up a little more, so on ,so on. the spit can't climb with the F4U. If he tries he'll stall. If he doesn't try he is lower than you and you BnZ him back to the tower. I have been practicing this but I have yet to get the Spit to stall but I'm probably not doing it exactly as I was told either. The trick is not to let the spit lose interest in shooting you you can increase or decrease your climb to wet his appetite but this is what usually gets me into trouble. You can use this with any plane you're faster than but it takes practice and patience 2 things I probably lack in.
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I’m the worst fighter pilot in AH. I stink and I know it. In reading these posts I have a simple question and I’m asking it because I just don’t get it. I’ve seen several comments about a “flat turn” and a post about a “nose Low flat turn” .
Isn’t a flat turn a turn in which the aircraft neither gains nor losses altitude? If the nose is low, are you not descending ? If you are descending with the nose low and no change in manifold setting and the aircraft in trim, won’t you be gaining speed?
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Traveler I'm way worse than you and am willing to meet you in the DA any time to prove it. :)
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I’m the worst fighter pilot in AH. I stink and I know it. In reading these posts I have a simple question and I’m asking it because I just don’t get it. I’ve seen several comments about a “flat turn” and a post about a “nose Low flat turn” .
Isn’t a flat turn a turn in which the aircraft neither gains nor losses altitude? If the nose is low, are you not descending ? If you are descending with the nose low and no change in manifold setting and the aircraft in trim, won’t you be gaining speed?
In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading. For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft. The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite.
ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion. You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for.
The three turn options would be flat, oblique, and vertical although there are other more specific terms also used that can refine the description. In ACM a "flat turn" means that the turn is generally level but probably plus/minus 20 degrees nose low or high. An oblique turn would be plus/minus 20-70 degrees nose low or high while a vertical would be greater than 70 degrees nose low or high. Those generalized terms can be used with some additional information added if someone specifies a modifier of some sort. For instance, a nose low flat turn might be a turn that is just slightly nose-low to retain/build NRG, an oblique could be further defined by shallow or steep with shallow indicating less NRG loss and steep emphasizing the change in altitutde, and a vertical turn as a Split S or Immelman. Vertical terms are also usefully described as "pure" vertical or "bullseye", especially when going up because this is a unique turn that results in a perfect 90 nose-up attitude usually implying a vertical extension.
Hope that clairifies.
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In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading. For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft. The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite.
ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion. You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for.
The three turn options would be flat, oblique, and vertical although there are other more specific terms also used that can refine the description. In ACM a "flat turn" means that the turn is generally level but probably plus/minus 20 degrees nose low or high. An oblique turn would be plus/minus 20-70 degrees nose low or high while a vertical would be greater than 70 degrees nose low or high. Those generalized terms can be used with some additional information added if someone specifies a modifier of some sort. For instance, a nose low flat turn might be a turn that is just slightly nose-low to retain/build NRG, an oblique could be further defined by shallow or steep with shallow indicating less NRG loss and steep emphasizing the change in altitutde, and a vertical turn as a Split S or Immelman. Vertical terms are also usefully described as "pure" vertical or "bullseye", especially when going up because this is a unique turn that results in a perfect 90 nose-up attitude usually implying a vertical extension.
Hope that clairifies.
I thank you for the clarification, however, it leaves me still confused. I’ve searched several ACM documents and have yet to see the term nose low or nose high “flat turn” . I did find this
Out-of-plane maneuvers
Maneuvering planes, showing oblique and vertical turns.
Maneuvers are rarely performed in the strictly vertical or horizontal planes. Most turns contain some degree of "pitch" or "slice." During a turn in an oblique plane, a pitch turn occurs when the aircraft's nose points above the horizon, causing an increase in altitude. A slice turn happens when the nose points below the horizon, causing a decrease in altitude. The purpose is not only to make the aircraft harder for an enemy to track, but also to increase or decrease speed while maintaining energy.
An out-of-plane maneuver enhances this effect, by diverting the fighter into a new plane of travel. Increasing the pitch or slice can quickly provide a change in speed, which can just as quickly be reversed by returning to the original plane of travel. Out-of-plane maneuvers are not only used to provide a reduction in turn radius, but also causes the fighter to fly a longer path in relation to the direction of travel. A maneuver such as a high Yo-Yo is used to slow closure and to bring the fighter into lag pursuit, while a low Yo-Yo is used to increase closure and to bring the fighter into lead pursuit.
During an out-of-plane maneuver, the attacker's nose no longer points at the defender. Instead, the aircraft is rolled until its lift vector, (an imaginary line running vertically from the center of the aircraft, perpendicular to its wings), is aligned either ahead of, directly at, or behind the defender, using roll rate instead of turn rate to set the proper pursuit curve. The aircraft's velocity vector, (an imaginary line in the direction of motion) will be pulled in the direction of the lift vector.
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The problem is if I said slice or oblique it doesn't convey the same picture IMO. Flat turn with nose down helps those of us who have no idea what an oblique turn is. :D
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The problem is if I said slice or oblique it doesn't convey the same picture IMO. Flat turn with nose down helps those of us who have no idea what an oblique turn is. :D
That may be for some, however the term flat turn convey's something other then the BFM being performed.
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I thank you for the clarification, however, it leaves me still confused. I’ve searched several ACM documents and have yet to see the term nose low or nose high “flat turn” . I did find this
Out-of-plane maneuvers
Maneuvering planes, showing oblique and vertical turns.
Maneuvers are rarely performed in the strictly vertical or horizontal planes. Most turns contain some degree of "pitch" or "slice." During a turn in an oblique plane, a pitch turn occurs when the aircraft's nose points above the horizon, causing an increase in altitude. A slice turn happens when the nose points below the horizon, causing a decrease in altitude. The purpose is not only to make the aircraft harder for an enemy to track, but also to increase or decrease speed while maintaining energy.
An out-of-plane maneuver enhances this effect, by diverting the fighter into a new plane of travel. Increasing the pitch or slice can quickly provide a change in speed, which can just as quickly be reversed by returning to the original plane of travel. Out-of-plane maneuvers are not only used to provide a reduction in turn radius, but also causes the fighter to fly a longer path in relation to the direction of travel. A maneuver such as a high Yo-Yo is used to slow closure and to bring the fighter into lag pursuit, while a low Yo-Yo is used to increase closure and to bring the fighter into lead pursuit.
During an out-of-plane maneuver, the attacker's nose no longer points at the defender. Instead, the aircraft is rolled until its lift vector, (an imaginary line running vertically from the center of the aircraft, perpendicular to its wings), is aligned either ahead of, directly at, or behind the defender, using roll rate instead of turn rate to set the proper pursuit curve. The aircraft's velocity vector, (an imaginary line in the direction of motion) will be pulled in the direction of the lift vector.
Sorry Brother but you're sweating the little stuff. The point is to convey the maneuver in a manner that others can understand. Think of the types of turns as the catagories I described. There are flat turns, oblique turns, and vertical turns. That's it. What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon. Sure, there are additional terms which describe specific types of turns whether they be slices, pitchs, immelmans, split-S, etc., but they all fall into these three catagories.
What's most important is whether or not you understand the concept being conveyed. For instance, say I want to entice a high bandit to dive in. I'm thinking "flat turn" to present a non-aggressive turn that's 90degrees out-of-plane to the bandit's position in order to set up an overshoot, i.e., a flat turn opposing his vertical turn. That's the concept. The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice? If I wanted to do an oblique turn then that's what I'd say but that isn't the tactic I'm describing, I'm using a flat turn to present the bandit with a specific sight picture and whether it's slightly nose-high or nose-low isn't really conceptually relevant.
While it may not be particularly relevant to the concept it is relevant to technique so you'll see this type of descriptive terminology used a lot here since many people don't necessarily have the proper techniques down.
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Here is how it was described to me, I think, I am not effective at it unless the spit gets tired of chasing me breaks off then I turn around and shoot him.
Let the spit get to 1.5 k out neither closing or getting further away. Start pulling up gently when the icon changes to plus pull up a little more, so on ,so on. the spit can't climb with the F4U. If he tries he'll stall. If he doesn't try he is lower than you and you BnZ him back to the tower. I have been practicing this but I have yet to get the Spit to stall but I'm probably not doing it exactly as I was told either. The trick is not to let the spit lose interest in shooting you you can increase or decrease your climb to wet his appetite but this is what usually gets me into trouble. You can use this with any plane you're faster than but it takes practice and patience 2 things I probably lack in.
This technique works, but it isn't what I'd call anything like a lufberry.
It'll work in practically any plane as long as you have a higher top speed than the other plane. It's not a very "exciting" tactic, but it works very well, and is one I teach people if they're especially having trouble killing a particular plane, while in a different particular plane. Two examples that come to mind quickly are the 109 who has trouble with an F4U, or an F4U who has trouble with spits, hurris, or zero's.
It's a tactic that also "teaches" you something, that can then be adapted into more complex tactics. It's also a tactic that confuses people who think they have the relative abilities of the different aircraft figured out.
For example, anyone who's flown a spit next to an F4U or an F4U next to a spit knows that if they both go into auto-climb, the spit climbs away from the F4U. They'll tell you "the spit out-climbs the F4U". And they're right, but also wrong.
In level flight, the F4U beats the spit in speed. The F4U is faster. If an F4U has a spit on his tail, he can run away as long as he can briefly avoid the spits shots if needed. If a chase ensues, the F4U can simply pull away. Or... Once the speeds are equalized, and trending toward the F4U, with the spit in full throttle maximum level speed, the F4U can use his extra speed to gain height in a shallow climb, instead of pulling away. Say the F4U can go 350, and the spit can go 300 level. The F4U drags the spit until he hits 325 or so, and the spit begins to fall back. The F4U goes into a shallow climb, maintaining at least the spits max level speed of 300. The spit cannot follow the climb, because as soon as he lifts his nose he begins to slow and fall back. If that happens, the F4U steepens the climb, making sure the spit stays 1000yd back. If this continues, the spit will be roped and die.
If the spit doesn't fall for this, but stays level, he finds himself under the F4U and exposed to attack. If the spit turns away to run, he can't get away because the F4U just rolls in on his six and chases him down. If the spit makes a hard turn to avoid the shot, the F4U can zoom through and up, and now really commands an advantage... Poor spit.
Of course, there are "counters" to this tactic.
This tactic works "easiest", but is also easiest to detect in a fairly straight tail-chase. However, it'll also work if the spit pulls onto the F4U's tail when the F4U actually has too much speed to camouflage the tactic. In this case, if the F4U pulls up, he needs to do it steeply to keep the spit close enough to control, and that makes for a fairly obvious rope set-up. Many spit pilots will recognize it and won't come up... So, rather than do that, the F4U can camouflage his speed by making his climb in a spiral, keeping the spit just barely outside of firing range. It works because the F4U has that initial extra energy and is careful to maintain it relative to the spit, not because the F4U will out-climb the spit in this case. When the spit stalls and falters, the F4U rolls in for the shot.
The faster plane controls the fight. For people having "issues" killing F4U's in 109's, this is also an easy tactic. Use the 109 speed and climb to pull away from and then climb above the F4U, who is forced to fly level, pull up into the rope, or dive away. Regardless, the 109 controls the fight. The best the F4U can hope for is to dodge a few attacks and convince the 109 to slow down and try to turn with him to finish the fight. That's the mistake the F4U pilot is looking for.
Really, you can substitute practically any "faster" plane vs. "slower" plane combo.
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Pacman,
I still remember our old fights from a while back. I think I still have film if you want it. Basically I went for an E conserving merge, getting some altitude separation, and as you stall out trying to shoot me, I go flaps out and convert my E to angles.
From there you try to rolling scissors me, but I just stay in lag pursuit until you get out in front enough for me to shoot you.
Regards
Edit: I also am riding the stall a bit conservatively because pulling the stick all the way back in a rolling scissors isn't nearly as important as NOT screwing it up.
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Thank you, Mtnman - that's a perfectly concise explanation.
<S>
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Sorry Brother but you're sweating the little stuff. The point is to convey the maneuver in a manner that others can understand. Think of the types of turns as the catagories I described. There are flat turns, oblique turns, and vertical turns. That's it. What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon. Sure, there are additional terms which describe specific types of turns whether they be slices, pitchs, immelmans, split-S, etc., but they all fall into these three catagories.
What's most important is whether or not you understand the concept being conveyed. For instance, say I want to entice a high bandit to dive in. I'm thinking "flat turn" to present a non-aggressive turn that's 90degrees out-of-plane to the bandit's position in order to set up an overshoot, i.e., a flat turn opposing his vertical turn. That's the concept. The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice? If I wanted to do an oblique turn then that's what I'd say but that isn't the tactic I'm describing, I'm using a flat turn to present the bandit with a specific sight picture and whether it's slightly nose-high or nose-low isn't really conceptually relevant.
While it may not be particularly relevant to the concept it is relevant to technique so you'll see this type of descriptive terminology used a lot here since many people don't necessarily have the proper techniques down.
What I did was question the concept of a Nose low or nose high flat turn. My point being that if you make a flat turn you stay level. If your nose is down, you will go down and if it’s up you will climb. I was questioning the terms used. Trying to understand.
It has nothing to do with technique and the descriptive terminology is just not correct. What you are conveying is not possible, you can’t make a turn nose low and not lose altitude. If you make a flat turn. You stay level. Unless you found a way to turn off gravity. If you lower your nose, you descend.
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What I did was question the concept of a Nose low or nose high flat turn. My point being that if you make a flat turn you stay level. If your nose is down, you will go down and if it’s up you will climb. I was questioning the terms used. Trying to understand.
It has nothing to do with technique and the descriptive terminology is just not correct. What you are conveying is not possible, you can’t make a turn nose low and not lose altitude. If you make a flat turn. You stay level. Unless you found a way to turn off gravity. If you lower your nose, you descend.
Sorry dude, I'm just not seeing how you're missing this. Let's start out though with what you say I said (or didn't say) and point out that what I actually said is completely consistent. I never said that you wouldn't gain or lose some altitude in a nose-high or nose-low flat turn so your somewhat smart alec comment is uncalled for, especially when someone is trying to help you out. (If you weren't trying to be a smart alec then I apologize up front for taking it that way) The only place I said anything at all about no gain or loss in altitude was this:
In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading. For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft. The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite.
But, of course we're not talking about airliners, Cessnas, IFR rules, or flight violations so, what did I really say about turns in ACM?:
ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion. You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for.
What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon.
The fact that not all flat turns will be precisely nose-on-the-horizon means there will be some altitude change whether you intend it or not. And then there's this:
The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?
"Slightly" doesn't make it clear that I'm not talking 30, 45, or 75 degrees? Slight changes in nose position (and G) is called "playing the turn." That's technique. The intent is to fine-tune position and speed, not make rapid changes in altitude....otherwise it would be a pitch or slice. Also, I'll answer my own question do a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?, the answer is no it doesn't. You have to understand that we're talking about matters of degree. There's no precise defining line between flat, oblique and vertical and a turn is essentially flat if your nose is basically anywhere near the horizon in the broadest sense. The numbers I gave you previously would be generally accepted by just about any real fighter pilot (although they will quibble if 15 is better than 20 or 77 better than 70 because we're notoriously argumentative, especially if you mix a Naval Aviator with a USAF pilot). From what you're saying it's clear that if you roll 135 degrees and pull...it's a slice, no argument there but you're also saying that if I roll 92 degrees that's also a slice because my altitude will change a bit. It isn't a slice, it's a nose-low flat turn and there ain't no changing it.
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Of course, keeping your nose on the horizon through the whole turn is no guarantee that your turn will be "flat", or that you won't lose altitude while doing it, either.
Depending on your speed and angle of bank, you could actually have your nose above the horizon, and be losing altitude.
Just sayin'.
Sorry.
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Forget flat and vertical....that's 2D thinking.
There are only two maneuvers...rolls and pulls.
There are only two kinds of turns...those that trade energy for altitude and those that trade altitude for energy.
Roll. Pull. Altitude going up, airspeed going down. Trading energy for altitude. Your relationship to the horizon is of little importance. Only your relationship to the target has relevance. Your target is hard breaking and you don't want to try to match his turn so you trade energy for altitude and then trade that altitude back in for energy. High Yo Yo
Roll. Pull. Altitude going down. Airspeed going up (or steady if you are pulling really hard). Trading altitude for energy. Why would I do that? Again it revolves around the relationship to the bandit. In a merge situation where the bandit gives you some separation horizontally and pulls the standard nose high pull for an attempt at a vertical merge an energy building or energy conserving nose low turn into the nose high bandit will give you position on his 6 with energy to spare.
All Basic Fighter Maneuvers are performed in relation to the target aircraft. If you ask someone to describe any BFM and they give you precise instruction like " For the high yo yo pull the nose 45 degrees above the horizon then roll to 135 degrees and pull the nose 45 degrees below the horizon" then you know they are feeding you a line of BS.
The answer on how to do any BFM is always "depends on what the target is doing".
It can be described in general terms.
For example the High Yo Yo would be described in this manner.
"When the bandit enters his break pull the nose high enough to stay above the bandit turn circle, roll the lift vector to a position of lead pursuit on the bandit and then pull bringing the nose to lead, pure or lag pursuit as the situation dictates."
If you do High Yo Yo's using that description they are right every time. Of course you have to understand the concepts of turn circle, lift vector placement and pursuit curves or the description doesn't make much sense.
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Pacman... also...
When I'm in a rolling scissors with you in the Spit 8... it's amazing what happens when you pull out in front and the shot appears. I can literally see it happening as I pull my nose across the circle into lead faster than your airspeed lets you cross the barrel.
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Forget flat and vertical....that's 2D thinking.
There are only two maneuvers...rolls and pulls.
There are only two kinds of turns...those that trade energy for altitude and those that trade altitude for energy.
Roll. Pull. Altitude going up, airspeed going down. Trading energy for altitude. Your relationship to the horizon is of little importance. Only your relationship to the target has relevance. Your target is hard breaking and you don't want to try to match his turn so you trade energy for altitude and then trade that altitude back in for energy. High Yo Yo
Roll. Pull. Altitude going down. Airspeed going up (or steady if you are pulling really hard). Trading altitude for energy. Why would I do that? Again it revolves around the relationship to the bandit. In a merge situation where the bandit gives you some separation horizontally and pulls the standard nose high pull for an attempt at a vertical merge an energy building or energy conserving nose low turn into the nose high bandit will give you position on his 6 with energy to spare.
All Basic Fighter Maneuvers are performed in relation to the target aircraft. If you ask someone to describe any BFM and they give you precise instruction like " For the high yo yo pull the nose 45 degrees above the horizon then roll to 135 degrees and pull the nose 45 degrees below the horizon" then you know they are feeding you a line of BS.
The answer on how to do any BFM is always "depends on what the target is doing".
It can be described in general terms.
For example the High Yo Yo would be described in this manner.
"When the bandit enters his break pull the nose high enough to stay above the bandit turn circle, roll the lift vector to a position of lead pursuit on the bandit and then pull bringing the nose to lead, pure or lag pursuit as the situation dictates."
If you do High Yo Yo's using that description they are right every time. Of course you have to understand the concepts of turn circle, lift vector placement and pursuit curves or the description doesn't make much sense.
Sigh....where to start....
First off, "forget flat or vertical...that's 2D thinking?" I know we're not flying F14's here but bear with me a moment. Tomcat's fought in the flats and verticals for their entire time in service as have many other fighters and none of them were "2D" fighters. Its strengths were a very efficient turn (not the highest rate but very efficient), excellent pitch rate, acceleration, and speed. The simplest F14 fight was to force a level two-circle fight at corner, and when the bandit sold E for angles or spiral climbed for a nose-low lead turn conversion at the next merge you'd take him close aboard and pull straight up in a pure vertical extension. In the vertical, you'd roll to put the lift vector behind him, pitch over, and dive in for the kill. Nothing but flat and vertical moves with the exception that at the end, the dive in for the kill was an oblique and yes, it's an NRG fight. If the bandit went up at the first merge then you'd extend, reverse, come in underneath and again take it straight up into a pure vertical fight. Again, nothing but horizontal and vertical moves with the addition of a high yo-yo for the reversal and yes this is still an NRG fight. The idea that "flat" and "vertical" can be dismissed is sort of blowing smoke of folks tailpipes. Again, I realize that we're not flying F14's here but I'm illustrating that even in the modern fighter world of NRG fights flat and vertical still matter. Also, while not identical, similar fights happen in AH all the time but we usually call them ropes.
Second, "only two maneuvers...rolls and pulls?" Great, if these are the only "maneuvers" there are then BFManeuvers just got really, really easy and Topgun has been wasting everyone's time. The reality is that they are the actions taken that result in a maneuver, they are not maneuvers in and of themselves. The roll positions the lift vector and the pull creates the turn and the results are BFManeuvers. BFManeuvers are turns, rolling scissors, flat scissors, extensions, reversals, yo-yo's, displacement rolls, lag rolls, etc.
Third, "there are only two kinds of turns...those that trade energy for altitude and those that trade altitude for energy." That's an NRG concept and, generally speaking it's true but unfortunately incomplete. There are turns that trade NRG for angles and there are maximum sustained turns in which the airplane is on its Ps=0 line. In neither of these is the fighter required to either trade NRG for altitude or altitude for NRG yet, by golly, they're still turns. These would generally be considered part of an angles vice NRG fight but even an NRG fighter usually needs to convert at least some stored NRG into angles for the kill unless they're going strickly for snaps.
Fourth, "and they give you precise instruction like " For the high yo yo pull the nose 45 degrees above the horizon then roll to 135 degrees and pull the nose 45 degrees below the horizon" then you know they are feeding you a line of BS." There's a difference between basic and advanced instruction that you apparently are choosing to ignore. This is sort of like explaining racing techniques in a Ferrari when the new driver can hardly coordinate his clutch and gearshift yet. Learning the mechanics of a high yo-yo, i.e., the required hand/eye coordination and the capabilities of your aircraft WRT to turn radius, NRG addition or loss, unusual attitudes, etc., is the start of BFM instruction, it's hardly "a line of BS." Those are fundamental skills and knowledge that must be learned first. The mechanics of a maneuver like a high yo-yo is taught in the very beginning of BFM instruction; the how and why it's used in relation to the bandit, the bandit's turn radius, and closure, and tactics follows once the mechanics and concept are learned. It's not that the relationship between the fighter and bandit is irrelevant that would be a huge mistake, it's that you've got to understand how to do one before you learn how to employ one. There's a difference.
Fifth, "your relationship to the horizon is of little importance." Really? It's of little importance??? You yourself just spent that entire paragraph and the next explaining explicitly why it is important. The whole NRG fight concept is intrinsically tied to the horizon and your relative nose position, those elements can not be divorced from each other. Since an NRG fight is about trading airspeed and altitude and back it's sorta important to know where the darned horizon is. Saying everything is in relation to the bandit is misleading and you prove that in your own discussion. You are oversimplifying this.
Much of what you say is good and useful knowledge and you're certainly entitled to your opinion but you undermine your credibility by making grandiose and condescending comments that just aren't supportable. As you saw fit to caution others about BS, I'll do the same. When people make such sweeping and apparently bold statements keep your tailpipe away from them...you may get smoke blown up it.
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What I don’t get is the repeated use of the term “flat turn” when what everyone is describing is anything but. I think the term at least for me, is misleading. When I read “flat turn” I’m thinking no change in altitude, but that’s just me and how I interpret the use of the term “flat turn”. Now I know that when they use the term “flat turn” they don’t mean that their aircraft will remain at a constant altitude. My question now is what term do you use when you want to turn and remain at a constant altitude , I’m guessing “level turn”.
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My question now is what term do you use when you want to turn and remain at a constant altitude , I’m guessing “level turn”.
level turn might be the proper theoretical answer, but I would go with "sustained turn"
a sustained turn is one that does not give up nor gains in altitude, speed, degrees of turn
..... it stays constant through out the turn anywhere from 1 to any infinite number of continous 360 degree turns
I would also suggest that when flying combat cartoon planes in Aces high, one should not try and immulate Real World coordinated flight as if they were flying Commercial Aviation ( think MS flight Simulator 2002/2004 FSX, etc.... ) and instead work more toward a goal of learning the fundamentals of BFM and then proceed on to Advanced tactics and ACM...... coordinated flying is good to know, and is great even when flying with a squad and on patrol, or a fighter sweep..... just so some do not misunderstand my thinking......
but sometimes while playing Aces High , one might need to know how to control their cartoon plane in an un coordinated way, slip, skid, yaw, cross control, etc.....
hope this helps
Heya Mace :old: ---> some wonderful replys of yours ---> Reply #18, #22, #27, #31 :aok :airplane:
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A climbing lufberry F4U vs Spit? That makes no sense to me - anything newer than the Spit V has a something close to 1000 fpm climb rate advantage - if not 2000 or more. Unless you have way more E than he does (or unless maybe you mean you do this when you're in the -4???) and can end the fight in less than 60 seconds, he's going to pretty quickly even up E states and then catch you as try to break off.
Do you have a film of how you do this I could watch?
<S>
If you get flaps down all the way you can use the spit's torque against it and litterly hover above it,
The large wing surface on the Spit makes it bleed airspeed and eventually stall out below you. Roll over the top and get on his 6.
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I received a PM from Dawger this morning regarding my response to his post above and, due to work today, haven't been able to respond so I'll do that now.
In his PM he clarified what he meant in his post and it turns out we're far more in synch than it appears or I believed when I posted. He used a bit of shorthand and simplification that, at least to me, left his meaning unclear and open to misinterpretation. Personalizing these things is something I actively avoid doing...I didn't in this case. With that I will say clearly that I was wrong to jump on him using the tone that I did and I sincerely apologize to him for my mistake.
Dawger's a good guy, even if we haven't always agreed on everything, and he's had many very knowledgeable and informative posts here that folks would be foolish to disregard out of hand as I wrongly suggested. Also, he has a webpage here: http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/stage3lessons/stage3frames.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/stage3lessons/stage3frames.htm). While not yet complete, it looks to be a very nice tool for AH'ers and I look forward to reading it in detail myself.
v/r Mace
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Wow, I just come in here and I learn more than I ever had: (HUMBLE wrote::""unload the airframe in a best climb"")
the more I know, the more I know how little I know.. :miglet, a stick who knows many of yous guys over the years, been on your kilboard more often than not, and I never expect to be in the top 3000.
AKAK <S>
:airplane:
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Wow, I just come in here and I learn more than I ever had: (HUMBLE wrote::""unload the airframe in a best climb"")
the more I know, the more I know how little I know.. :miglet, a stick who knows many of yous guys over the years, been on your kilboard more often than not, and I never expect to be in the top 3000.
AKAK <S>
:airplane:
One of the best parts of this game IMHO is the ongoing lessons to be learned, I've been here 10 years or so and I'm still learning new things which keeps me coming back for more abuse. :)
Oftentimes it's one little sentence or statement that I read that suddenly makes me think about something a little differently and it's like the light bulb appears over my head and my cartoon flying get's just a little better as I incorporate that new idea.
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Darn good thread. As a very poor fighter pilot trying to learn, I picked up very good information here.. Thanks Alot!!!
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One of the best parts of this game IMHO is the ongoing lessons to be learned, I've been here 10 years or so and I'm still learning new things which keeps me coming back for more abuse. :)
Oftentimes it's one little sentence or statement that I read that suddenly makes me think about something a little differently and it's like the light bulb appears over my head and my cartoon flying get's just a little better as I incorporate that new idea.
Soulyss <Salute>, wizer words right there! And That is the Gem and pulse that give this game life for me.
Thanks Brotha, and I appreciate beiing offa ur kilboard lately..
miggy