E-Fighting

[wgmount]

A climbing lufberry F4U vs Spit? That makes no sense to me - anything newer than the Spit V has a something close to 1000 fpm climb rate advantage - if not 2000 or more.  Unless you have way more E than he does (or unless maybe you mean you do this when you're in the -4???) and can end the fight in less than 60 seconds, he's going to pretty quickly even up E states and then catch you as try to break off.

Do you have a film of how you do this I could watch?
<S>

Here is how it was described to me, I think, I am not effective at it unless the spit gets tired of chasing me breaks off then I turn around and shoot him.

Let the spit get to 1.5 k out neither closing or getting further away. Start pulling up gently when the icon changes to plus pull up a little more, so on ,so on. the spit can't climb with the F4U. If he tries he'll stall. If he doesn't try he is lower than you and you BnZ him back to the tower. I have been practicing this but I have yet to get the Spit to stall but I'm probably not doing it exactly as I was told either. The trick is not to let the spit lose interest in shooting you you can increase or decrease your climb to wet his appetite  but this is what usually gets me into trouble. You can use this with any plane you're faster than but it takes practice and patience 2 things I probably lack in.

[Traveler]

I’m the worst fighter pilot in AH.  I stink and I know it.   In reading these posts I have a simple question and I’m asking it because I just don’t get it.  I’ve seen several comments about a “flat turn” and a post about a “nose Low flat turn” .
Isn’t a flat turn a turn in which the aircraft neither gains nor losses  altitude?  If the nose is low, are you not descending ?  If you are descending with the nose low and no change in manifold setting and the aircraft in trim, won’t you be gaining speed? 

[Muzzy]

Traveler I'm way worse than you and am willing to meet you in the DA any time to prove it.

[Mace2004]

I’m the worst fighter pilot in AH.  I stink and I know it.   In reading these posts I have a simple question and I’m asking it because I just don’t get it.  I’ve seen several comments about a “flat turn” and a post about a “nose Low flat turn” .
Isn’t a flat turn a turn in which the aircraft neither gains nor losses  altitude?  If the nose is low, are you not descending ?  If you are descending with the nose low and no change in manifold setting and the aircraft in trim, won’t you be gaining speed? 

In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading.  For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft.  The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite. 

ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion.  You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for. 

The three turn options would be flat, oblique, and vertical although there are other more specific terms also used that can refine the description.  In ACM a "flat turn" means that the turn is generally level but probably plus/minus 20 degrees nose low or high.  An oblique turn would be plus/minus 20-70 degrees nose low or high while a vertical would be greater than 70 degrees nose low or high.  Those generalized terms can be used with some additional information added if someone specifies a modifier of some sort.  For instance, a nose low flat turn might be a turn that is just slightly nose-low to retain/build NRG, an oblique could be further defined by shallow or steep with shallow indicating less NRG loss and steep emphasizing the change in altitutde, and a vertical turn as a Split S or Immelman.  Vertical terms are also usefully described as "pure" vertical or "bullseye", especially when going up because this is a unique turn that results in a perfect 90 nose-up attitude usually implying a vertical extension.

Hope that clairifies.

[Traveler]

In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading.  For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft.  The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite. 

ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion.  You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for. 

The three turn options would be flat, oblique, and vertical although there are other more specific terms also used that can refine the description.  In ACM a "flat turn" means that the turn is generally level but probably plus/minus 20 degrees nose low or high.  An oblique turn would be plus/minus 20-70 degrees nose low or high while a vertical would be greater than 70 degrees nose low or high.  Those generalized terms can be used with some additional information added if someone specifies a modifier of some sort.  For instance, a nose low flat turn might be a turn that is just slightly nose-low to retain/build NRG, an oblique could be further defined by shallow or steep with shallow indicating less NRG loss and steep emphasizing the change in altitutde, and a vertical turn as a Split S or Immelman.  Vertical terms are also usefully described as "pure" vertical or "bullseye", especially when going up because this is a unique turn that results in a perfect 90 nose-up attitude usually implying a vertical extension.

Hope that clairifies.

I thank you for the clarification, however,  it leaves me still confused.   I’ve searched several ACM documents and have yet to see the term nose low or nose high “flat turn”  .  I did find this

Out-of-plane maneuvers
 
 
Maneuvering planes, showing oblique and vertical turns.
Maneuvers are rarely performed in the strictly vertical or horizontal planes. Most turns contain some degree of "pitch" or "slice." During a turn in an oblique plane, a pitch turn occurs when the aircraft's nose points above the horizon, causing an increase in altitude. A slice turn happens when the nose points below the horizon, causing a decrease in altitude. The purpose is not only to make the aircraft harder for an enemy to track, but also to increase or decrease speed while maintaining energy. 
An out-of-plane maneuver enhances this effect, by diverting the fighter into a new plane of travel. Increasing the pitch or slice can quickly provide a change in speed, which can just as quickly be reversed by returning to the original plane of travel. Out-of-plane maneuvers are not only used to provide a reduction in turn radius, but also causes the fighter to fly a longer path in relation to the direction of travel. A maneuver such as a high Yo-Yo is used to slow closure and to bring the fighter into lag pursuit, while a low Yo-Yo is used to increase closure and to bring the fighter into lead pursuit.
During an out-of-plane maneuver, the attacker's nose no longer points at the defender. Instead, the aircraft is rolled until its lift vector, (an imaginary line running vertically from the center of the aircraft, perpendicular to its wings), is aligned either ahead of, directly at, or behind the defender, using roll rate instead of turn rate to set the proper pursuit curve. The aircraft's velocity vector, (an imaginary line in the direction of motion) will be pulled in the direction of the lift vector.

[Sonicblu]

The problem is if I said slice or oblique it doesn't convey the same picture IMO. Flat turn with nose down helps those of us who have no idea what an oblique turn is.

[Traveler]

The problem is if I said slice or oblique it doesn't convey the same picture IMO. Flat turn with nose down helps those of us who have no idea what an oblique turn is.

That may be for some, however the term flat turn convey's something other then the BFM being performed. 

[Mace2004]

I thank you for the clarification, however,  it leaves me still confused.   I’ve searched several ACM documents and have yet to see the term nose low or nose high “flat turn”  .  I did find this

Out-of-plane maneuvers
 
 
Maneuvering planes, showing oblique and vertical turns.
Maneuvers are rarely performed in the strictly vertical or horizontal planes. Most turns contain some degree of "pitch" or "slice." During a turn in an oblique plane, a pitch turn occurs when the aircraft's nose points above the horizon, causing an increase in altitude. A slice turn happens when the nose points below the horizon, causing a decrease in altitude. The purpose is not only to make the aircraft harder for an enemy to track, but also to increase or decrease speed while maintaining energy.  
An out-of-plane maneuver enhances this effect, by diverting the fighter into a new plane of travel. Increasing the pitch or slice can quickly provide a change in speed, which can just as quickly be reversed by returning to the original plane of travel. Out-of-plane maneuvers are not only used to provide a reduction in turn radius, but also causes the fighter to fly a longer path in relation to the direction of travel. A maneuver such as a high Yo-Yo is used to slow closure and to bring the fighter into lag pursuit, while a low Yo-Yo is used to increase closure and to bring the fighter into lead pursuit.
During an out-of-plane maneuver, the attacker's nose no longer points at the defender. Instead, the aircraft is rolled until its lift vector, (an imaginary line running vertically from the center of the aircraft, perpendicular to its wings), is aligned either ahead of, directly at, or behind the defender, using roll rate instead of turn rate to set the proper pursuit curve. The aircraft's velocity vector, (an imaginary line in the direction of motion) will be pulled in the direction of the lift vector.

Sorry Brother but you're sweating the little stuff. The point is to convey the maneuver in a manner that others can understand.  Think of the types of turns as the catagories I described.  There are flat turns, oblique turns, and vertical turns.  That's it.  What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon.  Sure, there are additional terms which describe specific types of turns whether they be slices, pitchs, immelmans, split-S, etc., but they all fall into these three catagories.  

What's most important is whether or not you understand the concept being conveyed.  For instance, say I want to entice a high bandit to dive in. I'm thinking "flat turn" to present a non-aggressive turn that's 90degrees out-of-plane to the bandit's position in order to set up an overshoot, i.e., a flat turn opposing his vertical turn.  That's the concept.  The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?  If I wanted to do an oblique turn then that's what I'd say but that isn't the tactic I'm describing, I'm using a flat turn to present the bandit with a specific sight picture and whether it's slightly nose-high or nose-low isn't really conceptually relevant.  

While it may not be particularly relevant to the concept it is relevant to technique so you'll see this type of descriptive terminology used a lot here since many people don't necessarily have the proper techniques down.

[mtnman]

Here is how it was described to me, I think, I am not effective at it unless the spit gets tired of chasing me breaks off then I turn around and shoot him.

Let the spit get to 1.5 k out neither closing or getting further away. Start pulling up gently when the icon changes to plus pull up a little more, so on ,so on. the spit can't climb with the F4U. If he tries he'll stall. If he doesn't try he is lower than you and you BnZ him back to the tower. I have been practicing this but I have yet to get the Spit to stall but I'm probably not doing it exactly as I was told either. The trick is not to let the spit lose interest in shooting you you can increase or decrease your climb to wet his appetite  but this is what usually gets me into trouble. You can use this with any plane you're faster than but it takes practice and patience 2 things I probably lack in.

This technique works, but it isn't what I'd call anything like a lufberry.

It'll work in practically any plane as long as you have a higher top speed than the other plane.  It's not a very "exciting" tactic, but it works very well, and is one I teach people if they're especially having trouble killing a particular plane, while in a different particular plane.  Two examples that come to mind quickly are the 109 who has trouble with an F4U, or an F4U who has trouble with spits, hurris, or zero's.

It's a tactic that also "teaches" you something, that can then be adapted into more complex tactics.  It's also a tactic that confuses people who think they have the relative abilities of the different aircraft figured out.

For example, anyone who's flown a spit next to an F4U or an F4U next to a spit knows that if they both go into auto-climb, the spit climbs away from the F4U.  They'll tell you "the spit out-climbs the F4U".  And they're right, but also wrong.

In level flight, the F4U beats the spit in speed.  The F4U is faster.  If an F4U has a spit on his tail, he can run away as long as he can briefly avoid the spits shots if needed.  If a chase ensues, the F4U can simply pull away.  Or...  Once the speeds are equalized, and trending toward the F4U, with the spit in full throttle maximum level speed, the F4U can use his extra speed to gain height in a shallow climb, instead of pulling away.  Say the F4U can go 350, and the spit can go 300 level.  The F4U drags the spit until he hits 325 or so, and the spit begins to fall back.  The F4U goes into a shallow climb, maintaining at least the spits max level speed of 300.  The spit cannot follow the climb, because as soon as he lifts his nose he begins to slow and fall back.  If that happens, the F4U steepens the climb, making sure the spit stays 1000yd back.  If this continues, the spit will be roped and die.

If the spit doesn't fall for this, but stays level, he finds himself under the F4U and exposed to attack.  If the spit turns away to run, he can't get away because the F4U just rolls in on his six and chases him down.  If the spit makes a hard turn to avoid the shot, the F4U can zoom through and up, and now really commands an advantage...  Poor spit.

Of course, there are "counters" to this tactic.

This tactic works "easiest", but is also easiest to detect in a fairly straight tail-chase.  However, it'll also work if the spit pulls onto the F4U's tail when the F4U actually has too much speed to camouflage the tactic.  In this case, if the F4U pulls up, he needs to do it steeply to keep the spit close enough to control, and that makes for a fairly obvious rope set-up.  Many spit pilots will recognize it and won't come up...  So, rather than do that, the F4U can camouflage his speed by making his climb in a spiral, keeping the spit just barely outside of firing range.  It works because the F4U has that initial extra energy and is careful to maintain it relative to the spit, not because the F4U will out-climb the spit in this case.  When the spit stalls and falters, the F4U rolls in for the shot.

The faster plane controls the fight.  For people having "issues" killing F4U's in 109's, this is also an easy tactic.  Use the 109 speed and climb to pull away from and then climb above the F4U, who is forced to fly level, pull up into the rope, or dive away.  Regardless, the 109 controls the fight.  The best the F4U can hope for is to dodge a few attacks and convince the 109 to slow down and try to turn with him to finish the fight.  That's the mistake the F4U pilot is looking for.

Really, you can substitute practically any "faster" plane vs. "slower" plane combo.

[boomerlu]

Pacman,

I still remember our old fights from a while back. I think I still have film if you want it. Basically I went for an E conserving merge, getting some altitude separation, and as you stall out trying to shoot me, I go flaps out and convert my E to angles.

From there you try to rolling scissors me, but I just stay in lag pursuit until you get out in front enough for me to shoot you.

Regards

Edit: I also am riding the stall a bit conservatively because pulling the stick all the way back in a rolling scissors isn't nearly as important as NOT screwing it up.

[Ghastly]

Thank you, Mtnman - that's a perfectly concise explanation. 

<S>

[Traveler]

Sorry Brother but you're sweating the little stuff. The point is to convey the maneuver in a manner that others can understand.  Think of the types of turns as the catagories I described.  There are flat turns, oblique turns, and vertical turns.  That's it.  What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon.  Sure, there are additional terms which describe specific types of turns whether they be slices, pitchs, immelmans, split-S, etc., but they all fall into these three catagories. 

What's most important is whether or not you understand the concept being conveyed.  For instance, say I want to entice a high bandit to dive in. I'm thinking "flat turn" to present a non-aggressive turn that's 90degrees out-of-plane to the bandit's position in order to set up an overshoot, i.e., a flat turn opposing his vertical turn.  That's the concept.  The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?  If I wanted to do an oblique turn then that's what I'd say but that isn't the tactic I'm describing, I'm using a flat turn to present the bandit with a specific sight picture and whether it's slightly nose-high or nose-low isn't really conceptually relevant. 

While it may not be particularly relevant to the concept it is relevant to technique so you'll see this type of descriptive terminology used a lot here since many people don't necessarily have the proper techniques down.

What I did was question the concept of a Nose low or nose high flat turn.  My point being that if you make a flat turn you stay level.  If your nose is down, you will go down and if it’s up you will climb.  I was questioning the terms used.  Trying to understand.   

It has nothing to do with technique  and the descriptive terminology is just not correct.  What you are conveying is not possible, you can’t make a turn nose low and not lose altitude.  If you make a flat turn.  You stay level.  Unless you found a way to turn off gravity.   If you lower your nose, you descend.
   

[Mace2004]

What I did was question the concept of a Nose low or nose high flat turn.  My point being that if you make a flat turn you stay level.  If your nose is down, you will go down and if it’s up you will climb.  I was questioning the terms used.  Trying to understand.    

It has nothing to do with technique  and the descriptive terminology is just not correct.  What you are conveying is not possible, you can’t make a turn nose low and not lose altitude.  If you make a flat turn.  You stay level.  Unless you found a way to turn off gravity.   If you lower your nose, you descend.

Sorry dude, I'm just not seeing how you're missing this.  Let's start out though with what you say I said (or didn't say) and point out that what I actually said is completely consistent.  I never said that you wouldn't gain or lose some altitude in a nose-high or nose-low flat turn so your somewhat smart alec comment is uncalled for, especially when someone is trying to help you out.  (If you weren't trying to be a smart alec then I apologize up front for taking it that way)  The only place I said anything at all about no gain or loss in altitude was this:

In general/commercial aviation a "proper" flat turn would indeed emphasize no gain/loss of altitude during a change in heading.  For instance, this is important if you're assigned 1,500 feet on an instrument approach but need to turn to a specific heading, you need to stay at 1,500ft.  The precision can be required to maintain separation from other aircraft and Cumulogranite.

But, of course we're not talking about airliners, Cessnas, IFR rules, or flight violations so, what did I really say about turns in ACM?:

ACM is much more fluid and the terms are intended to be descriptive but in a more generalized fashion.  You're flying in relation to other aircraft, not assigned altitudes/headings so a specific altitude isn't what you're looking for.

What it doesn't mean is that all flat turns are precisely nose-on-the-horizon and all vertical turns are precisely 90degrees to the horizon.

The fact that not all flat turns will be precisely nose-on-the-horizon means there will be some altitude change whether you intend it or not.  And then there's this:

The fact that I may make the turn slightly nose-low or slightly nose-high to control my speed is just technique, does a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?

"Slightly" doesn't make it clear that I'm not talking 30, 45, or 75 degrees?  Slight changes in nose position (and G) is called "playing the turn."  That's technique.  The intent is to fine-tune position and speed, not make rapid changes in altitude....otherwise it would be a pitch or slice.  Also, I'll answer my own question do a few degrees in nose position really change a flat turn into a pitch or slice?, the answer is no it doesn't.  You have to understand that we're talking about matters of degree.  There's no precise defining line between flat, oblique and vertical and a turn is essentially flat if your nose is basically anywhere near the horizon in the broadest sense.  The numbers I gave you previously would be generally accepted by just about any real fighter pilot (although they will quibble if 15 is better than 20 or 77 better than 70 because we're notoriously argumentative, especially if you mix a Naval Aviator with a USAF pilot). From what you're saying it's clear that if you roll 135 degrees and pull...it's a slice, no argument there but you're also saying that if I roll 92 degrees that's also a slice because my altitude will change a bit.  It isn't a slice, it's a nose-low flat turn and there ain't no changing it.

[mtnman]

Of course, keeping your nose on the horizon through the whole turn is no guarantee that your turn will be "flat", or that you won't lose altitude while doing it, either.

Depending on your speed and angle of bank, you could actually have your nose above the horizon, and be losing altitude.

Just sayin'.

Sorry.

[Dawger]

Forget flat and vertical....that's 2D thinking.

There are only two maneuvers...rolls and pulls.

There are only two kinds of turns...those that trade energy for altitude and those that trade altitude for energy.

Roll. Pull. Altitude going up, airspeed going down. Trading energy for altitude.  Your relationship to the horizon is of little importance. Only your relationship to the target has relevance. Your target is hard breaking and you don't want to try to match his turn so you trade energy for altitude and then trade that altitude back in for energy. High Yo Yo

Roll. Pull. Altitude going down. Airspeed going up (or steady if you are pulling really hard). Trading altitude for energy. Why would I do that? Again it revolves around the relationship to the bandit. In a merge situation where the bandit gives you some separation horizontally and pulls the standard nose high pull for an attempt at a vertical merge an energy building or energy conserving nose low turn into the nose high bandit will give you position on his 6 with energy to spare.

All Basic Fighter Maneuvers are performed in relation to  the target aircraft. If you ask someone to describe any BFM and they give you precise instruction like " For the high yo yo pull the nose 45 degrees above the horizon  then roll to 135 degrees and pull the nose 45 degrees below the horizon" then you know they are feeding you a line of BS.

The answer on how to do any BFM is always "depends on what the target is doing".

It can be described in general terms.

For example the High Yo Yo would be described in this manner.

"When the bandit enters his break pull the nose high enough to stay above the bandit turn circle, roll the lift vector to a position of lead pursuit on the bandit and then pull bringing the nose to lead, pure or lag pursuit as the situation dictates."

If you do High Yo Yo's using that description they are right every time. Of course you have to understand the concepts of turn circle, lift vector placement and pursuit curves or the description doesn't make much sense.