Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Airwolf on August 15, 2010, 03:52:21 PM
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Looking at what it takes to destroy stuff like a FH or VH, it occurred to that I have not seen a chart that indicates the power of the various rockets that used in AH (or perhaps I just missed it).....Are they equivalent to 66 lbs, 150 lbs?...Fighter Ace listed the power for the rockets available, so, how are they rated in AH?......
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/levelbombing/levelbombing.htm
With those two links, you can definitely get the answers you need.
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/levelbombing/levelbombing.htm
With those two links, you can definitely get the answers you need.
Thats what I was looking for....ty
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hmm seems like the town building are much softer now is that just me?
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hmm seems like the town building are much softer now is that just me?
You could be right, I was a little surprised at how easy they were going down with .50
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Yes defiantly easier, 1 he round 1 building...makes the T34/85 not so bad to take town busting now...just don't get stuck in that.....I don't know what you call it...the valley that runs under the bridges...that is a painful place to get out of.
I'm still waiting for a full on GV battle within a town..I reckon that would be wicked
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/levelbombing/levelbombing.htm
With those two links, you can definitely get the answers you need.
i think those need to be seriously updated cause just a quick glance at the downtimes on that chart
the only ones that are correct are for the hangers and town builds,ords definitly do not stay down for
2 hours,even if not resupplied,neither does field ack,dar,fuels,barracks.
usually they are back up before you land if your flying buffs and hit more than 1 base.
and a cv can be taken down with only 6000lbs when its fully up. :salute
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i think those need to be seriously updated cause just a quick glance at the downtimes on that chart
the only ones that are correct are for the hangers and town builds,ords definitly do not stay down for
2 hours,even if not resupplied,neither does field ack,dar,fuels,barracks.
usually they are back up before you land if your flying buffs and hit more than 1 base.
and a cv can be taken down with only 6000lbs when its fully up. :salute
You just looked at the chart and didn't bother reading the paragraph or two above it didn't you...
Note the down times listed are the maximum down times if the base is not re-supplied. Drone supply convoys are constantly running and the enemy can re-supply a field from nearby bases so, with the exception of hangars and CVs, you will rarely see items down as long as indicated in the chart.
And yes Flat tops take 8,000lbs of bombs to kill.
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You just looked at the chart and didn't bother reading the paragraph or two above it didn't you...
And yes Flat tops take 8,000lbs of bombs to kill.
i think those need to be seriously updated cause just a quick glance at the downtimes on that chart
just a quick glanced at the chart as stated
and 6000lbs will kill a cv,have done it many times
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Just like a 7 X 50kg bomb salvo from a Ju88 formation can take out a hangar (which is equal to 2314lbs).
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/levelbombing/levelbombing.htm
With those two links, you can definitely get the answers you need.
The values in the table state that they are for objects so they do not include Kinetic engergy effects. Any idea how the Ke values (used for Planes and Vehicles) relate to those in the table?
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and 6000lbs will kill a cv,have done it many times
I believe in another thread both HT & Skuzzy affirmed it was 8k to take down a cv.
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just a quick glanced at the chart as stated
and 6000lbs will kill a cv,have done it many times
And you STILL probably have not read what I quoted or the rest of the page.
Had you done so you would understand how the times are being figured out.
And no, 6,000lbs will not kill a CV.
No you have never dropped 6k on an untouched CV and sunk it.
Nobody ever has and nobody ever will.
(not online and not with the current hardness settings we have been using for years and years)
That is like saying you have captured fields all the time with 9 troops.
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The values in the table state that they are for objects so they do not include Kinetic engergy effects. Any idea how the Ke values (used for Planes and Vehicles) relate to those in the table?
As far as destructive power vs planes goes, you might just use that numbers as a rough guide (while keeping in mind other qualities like ROF & ballistic performance)
Against armored vehicles it's a different matter, here it is all about armor penetration (=mainly kinetic energy). For tank guns, you can the armor penetration information in game (hangar).
In case of planes vs tanks, there are only 3 planes with a true anti tank gun capability: Il-2 (both versions), B-25H, Hurricane IID, with the 37mm Il-2 outclassing the field.
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As far as destructive power vs planes goes, you might just use that numbers as a rough guide (while keeping in mind other qualities like ROF & ballistic performance)
Against armored vehicles it's a different matter, here it is all about armor penetration (=mainly kinetic energy). For tank guns, you can the armor penetration information in game (hangar).
In case of planes vs tanks, there are only 3 planes with a true anti tank gun capability: Il-2 (both versions), B-25H, Hurricane IID, with the 37mm Il-2 outclassing the field.
I was thinking about it in terms of Plane vs Plane. Max range of .50 caliber round is somewhere between 1000 and 1500 yds, I don't know exactly where the program assumes the bullet disappears. But before that, the round is slowing down. If I were to plot Ke on the Y-axis, and distance from Muzzle exit on the X-axis, the plot would look like a horizontal line starting at 100% and dropping off exponentially as it moved to the right. I don't think the code lets the bullet travel to velocity Zero. So it may calculate it to some preset distance like 1000yds. So a chart that showed the percent of original Ke remaining at end of flight would tell me what I was looking for. It would be different for each round, with the destructive power at the end being the sum of the Ke and the chemical explosive Energy [for cannon rounds].
Here's why...
I thought about this many months ago when I started AH. If I'm attacking a buff at long range from the rear [stupid but humor me for a minute], it's conceivable that an FW-190 sitting at 800-900yrds back would have a big advantage over the bomber guns because it was outside the formation's convergence so only 1 pair of the buff's .50s would be able to land at time, AND the .50 would hit like BBs because of the distance travelled. Where as the exploding cannon rounds from the FW-190 would retain most of their destructive power because most of it is the chemical explosive.
Might be good to know. :aok
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:huh
"...because it was outside the formation's convergence so only 1 pair of the buff's .50s would be able to land at time..."
All that is good as long as said buff is only firing one position, such as from the tail gun only. If said gunner is hitting the "N" key and firing all available firing positions, then technically you are going to have alot more than 1 pair hitting you. If directly behind the formation, you are going to have the top, tail, and ball turrent able to fire at you. Also each plane in the formation is going to be firing at separate angles, so the convergence point is mute. I start firing at about 1K out with rather good accuracy, as I open up with all available guns, so from B24s, looking at about 17 .50 cals. :aok :salute
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The number I'd heard thrown around was the convergence the different gunnery stations are set to on bombers is 600 yards, is that not correct? That seems to be roughly where the 3 planes converge at from my observation. Or is there a bomber convergence setting?
As to how far the projectiles travel, I know I once had a guy I was setting up on take an aileron off with my display showing 1.6K. I must admit, I decided to go seek easier prey as I figured since my plane was already soft, attacking that buff group would be a bad idea.
Vinkman- I'd say just do it if you're so inclined. In my experience while .50s still hit at range, their lethality is greatly reduced from what they do within reasonable(ish) ranges.
Wiley.
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:huh
"...because it was outside the formation's convergence so only 1 pair of the buff's .50s would be able to land at time..."
All that is good as long as said buff is only firing one position, such as from the tail gun only. If said gunner is hitting the "N" key and firing all available firing positions, then technically you are going to have alot more than 1 pair hitting you. If directly behind the formation, you are going to have the top, tail, and ball turrent able to fire at you. Also each plane in the formation is going to be firing at separate angles, so the convergence point is mute. I start firing at about 1K out with rather good accuracy, as I open up with all available guns, so from B24s, looking at about 17 .50 cals. :aok :salute
I'd asked before about bomber guns and whether a gunner is firing all 'position' guns [3 X (2 .50)=6], or 'ALL' guns [3 X (2 tail, 2 ball, 2 top, 2 side)=24]. Everyone had a different opinion. Could check it with .TARGET command, a review of the ammo counts in the other guns. I might have to test it myself. :salute
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There is the option when in a firing position to fire all available guns which can be brought to bear. A good example of this is jump into a PT boat position and point in a general direction and hit the "N" key. By default, the "N" key on the keyboard is set up as "Fire all guns". In a PT boat, if you are firing to the front position, all guns exept the 40MM will fire, as the 40 MM cannot fire forwards.
In the below quick example, I am in the tail guns firing using the "N" key straight to the rear and level. Notice the turrent, tail, and belly are all firing together. The side guns are unable to fire directly behind the plane, therefor they are not firing.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae246/Dr_Death8/Intailcopy.jpg)
Distance wise I am unsure of the convergence, but 600 sounds good. Normally I can aim a little high at 1K and score enough hits to cripple or kill a con. :salute
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The gun convergence is 500 yards.
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Could check it with .TARGET command, a review of the ammo counts in the other guns. I might have to test it myself. :salute
As being said by others: Convergence is D500, and fire all fires all guns that can shoot into that direction.
Picture by Fuzeman:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/fuzeman/Bomberguns.jpg)
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Has someone corrected vink on the "chemical warheads" yet? ;)
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And you STILL probably have not read what I quoted or the rest of the page.
Had you done so you would understand how the times are being figured out.
And no, 6,000lbs will not kill a CV.
No you have never dropped 6k on an untouched CV and sunk it.
Nobody ever has and nobody ever will.
(not online and not with the current hardness settings we have been using for years and years)
That is like saying you have captured fields all the time with 9 troops.
ok you win,you know more about what i do than i do :salute
argument over.
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Has someone corrected vink on the "chemical warheads" yet? ;)
WMDs! :lol :salute
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ok you win,you know more about what i do than i do :salute
argument over.
The argument was over as soon as you said you could kill CV's with only 6k.
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I thought about this many months ago when I started AH. If I'm attacking a buff at long range from the rear [stupid but humor me for a minute], it's conceivable that an FW-190 sitting at 800-900yrds back would have a big advantage over the bomber guns because it was outside the formation's convergence so only 1 pair of the buff's .50s would be able to land at time, AND the .50 would hit like BBs because of the distance travelled. Where as the exploding cannon rounds from the FW-190 would retain most of their destructive power because most of it is the chemical explosive.
Might be good to know. :aok
There is one big difference here. The 30mm the Germain plane used was low velocity. At 800 yards it would drop over 50 feet, so is much harder to hit with than the .50 BMG that only has a drop of about 16 foot at 800 yards.
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Has someone corrected vink on the "chemical warheads" yet? ;)
He said "chemical explosive". Technically, explosives are either chemical or nuclear in nature. Chemical explosives would denote the mass movement of electrons, where nuclear explosions would denote the mass movement of neutrons and protons.
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There is one big difference here. The 30mm the Germain plane used was low velocity. At 800 yards it would drop over 50 feet, so is much harder to hit with than the .50 BMG that only has a drop of about 16 foot at 800 yards.
This is a logical fallacy that I have been hearing since my early days of Fighter Ace. If the amount of drop is consistent and doesn't change, it is not harder to hit a target flying straight and level. You simply adjust your aim to account for the drop. That said, 800 yards is further than I would try to fire a 30mm but that's only because the ammo is so limited.
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About the bomb damage thing.
There may be some credability to his sinking of cv with 6k ords.
In a ki67, I have landed damages in upwards of 6-7k with 1 sortie.
This is impossible, as the max loadout of 8 100kilo bombs only comes out to 5291.1 Pounds with formations enabled, yet it can be done and has been done.
And this is a stupid question, but did you have formations enabled? With formations your bomb load magically triples with the addition of 2 more planes.
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About the bomb damage thing.
There may be some credability to his sinking of cv with 6k ords.
In a ki67, I have landed damages in upwards of 6-7k with 1 sortie.
This is impossible, as the max loadout of 8 100kilo bombs only comes out to 5291.1 Pounds with formations enabled, yet it can be done and has been done.
Not impossible once you understand how AH models bombs.
Here is a helpful little quote...
These are the hardness settings:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/objhard.jpg)
The gun and rocket power can be found here (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm)
Regarding bomb strength, I'd have to dig through my notes to put together a full list. Just from info I have readily on hand:
2,000lb = 1.8197 vs hardness value (off the top of my head if that's not it it's close)
1,000lb = 1.000 vs hardness value
500lb = .568 vs hardness value
250lb = .315 vs hardness value
So we can "guess" that a 100kg bomb, which is @ 220lbs of ord, will do much closer to 300lbs of damage.
8x300=2,400
2,400 x 3 drones = 7,200
Yes you can hit 7k damage with a Ki-67 using 8x100kg bombs.
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Not impossible once you understand how AH models bombs.
Here is a helpful little quote...
So we can "guess" that a 100kg bomb, which is @ 220lbs of ord, will do much closer to 300lbs of damage.
8x300=2,400
2,400 x 3 drones = 7,200
Yes you can hit 7k damage with a Ki-67 using 8x100kg bombs.
Well alrighty then, it isnt impossible.
I liked it better when I thought I had a magical bombadier though.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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I landed 12000 damage in a 67 today which could have been more if a drone didn't get shot down.
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In a ki67, I have landed damages in upwards of 6-7k with 1 sortie.
Unless someone comes up with a detailed explanation how the displayed damage at landing is computed, I would be quite reluctant to use it in an argument like this.
If you put 3k on a Vh and destroy it, you still get less "landing damage" displayed than dropping the same amount of bombs on a town center, even though all of the destructive power of you bombs had been used to kill that hangar. Several smaller objects within blast radius give you more points. So you always have to keep in mind the targets someone was bombing.
Also displayed damage at landing and the actual damage points for score are not directly related to each other. Once i bombed 6 town centers with 3x1000lbs each, and then 12 town centers with 3x500lbs each. Using the 1k bombs, i usually land between 32-35k damage, with 0.5k bombs I landed 50k - but the damage points I got for score was about the same.
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I landed 12000 damage in a 67 today which could have been more if a drone didn't get shot down.
Ummmmmm spikes........do any other Muppet's know about this?????? :huh :noid :huh :headscratch:
maybe we should keep this between ourselves??!!! good thing for you most Muppets cant read and those that can would never be caught dead reading a thread about bombs and rockets!!!! :banana: :banana: :devil
remeber we are suppose to be fighter pileeeeeets :airplane: :joystick: :airplane: :joystick: :airplane:
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This is a logical fallacy that I have been hearing since my early days of Fighter Ace. If the amount of drop is consistent and doesn't change, it is not harder to hit a target flying straight and level. You simply adjust your aim to account for the drop. That said, 800 yards is further than I would try to fire a 30mm but that's only because the ammo is so limited.
I have to disagree with your disagreement. Even in AH, where it tells you how far away a plane is, it only tells you a distance + or - 100 yards. So if the icon is showing 800 yards, it's 700 to 900 yards away. The flatter trajectory .50 bmg has a drop variance of 5 foot between 700 and 900 yards, while the 30 mm German cannon has a drop variance of over 20 foot at the same distance.