Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sky25 on September 07, 2010, 03:25:50 PM
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I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..
Scenario #1
I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't.
So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario.. :salute
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You ask tough questions...........
As your skill level begins to increase you will "see" the ways to get out of the ho......... But as you stated, you can't just turn away and you have to always expect a Head On...............
It ain't easy. When Fugitive is flying, he is still just a red icon. I'm 99% he isn't going to ho, but how do I know it's him.
These days, it basically breaks down like this....... If the enemy opens fire from 1000 dtt, he is a newb and I'll beat his ho with my own. If the enemy hasn't fired at 600 dtt, he is either don5090 or not going to ho. (don5090 likes to get close) At 400 dtt, pull a hi G move and the enemy, even the good ho'ers, will have trouble to get back into a firing position....... Furthermore depending on his skill level will pull hard on his stick, lose a ton of E, and be ready to die.
But there are so many philosophies people use for the anti-ho. It's a crap shoot sometimes.
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A HO is a gun to gun firing solution. If nobody manuevered out of it, it's a mutual HO. If someone manuevered to evade, it's no longer a HO. It is now a front quarter shot.
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It takes 2.
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My philosophy, avoid the HO because it means his guns are on you. However, there are just times where you are low on E, and a plane with a major advantage is coming at you, and you have two options 1)be "honorable" and try to evade, which usually means you've just allowed him a clear shot with no resistance or 2) take your chances and put your nose on him.
Don't worry so much about how other people categorize it, or how it's defined. Flying strait at the enemy every time is going to mean you die a lot, but to say going Head On is never an option, just doesn't make sense to me.
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It takes 2.
I hope that was a troll.
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I hope that was a troll.
Actually no, how could it be? It does indeed take 2 to HO. If you get caught in a cheap shot and don't shoot yourself, it's nobody's fault but yours, granted it's not a HO, it's a front quarter like waystin said. If you get that close to the guy and then turn off, it's nobody's fault but yours. Whining that 'he hoed me!' after is funny because either you shouldn't put yourself in the position to begin with, or you should realize it's the MA and chances are you're going to get HO'ed on a merge. It's a rarity to find pilots who won't take it...so nobody should assume the other won't take it.
I personally commit to it but rarely take it, it give the guy a front quarter...if timed correctly it's tough to hit the target and sometimes it even puts the shooter in a terrible position and a possible easy kill for the other guy.
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100% right!!! The dead talk way too much on 200.... :aok
Whining that 'he hoed me!' after is funny because either you shouldn't put yourself in the position to begin with, or you should realize it's the MA and chances are you're going to get HO'ed on a merge. It's a rarity to find pilots who won't take it...so nobody should assume the other won't take it.
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I simply go into SAPP Mode.
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If you can bait the other guy into committing to the HO, you can take advantage of that. He's worrying about a firing solution while you're working for a good merge.
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A HO is a gun to gun firing solution. If nobody manuevered out of it, it's a mutual HO. If someone manuevered to evade, it's no longer a HO. It is now a front quarter shot.
If you pull the trigger on someone that is trying to avoid the HO, it's still a HO
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Merge offset to their heading, that was if they deviate you know they are going to try and kill you.
As for him getting on your 6, if you have enough E pull up wards and try to rope him, he will turn back into you as you go vert killing most of his E and then inturn making him stall out like a pancake.
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If you pull the trigger on someone that is trying to avoid the HO, it's still a HO
Nope. Now you are off a gun to gun solution and you are subject to frontal quarter attack. Truly different shot angles and no longer a HO. Your definition of a HO's envelope is too large.
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I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..
Scenario #1
I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't.
So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario.. :salute
I don't like the HO because it's a crap shoot, sometime you win sometimes you loose, sometime you collide. In all three of those senarios show me whats fun about them. I fly for the fight and will almost never fire on a nose to nose pass. With that being said, I almost never make a nose on nose pass, there for it's much harder for them to HO.
As a picture, remember in the movie Top Gun, during the big dog fight at the end at one point one of them yells out "I'm going to take them down the left side!" and they show the two planes passing in opposite directions a couple hundred feet apart. Well that IS NOT a HO because neither had a guns solution on the other. This is how you avoid the HO. The most important thing in a fight is to NOT put yourself in front of his guns. Should you see that you are going to be there you MUST give him the smallest profile to hit, point a wing at him, or even give him your 6.
With a D9 the only time you should be in front of his guns is as you blow past him in your zoom. The good thing about aiming your nose at the bad guys nose is you have your guns pointed at him, but so does he. Fights are easier to win if you never in front of the other guys guns.
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Its simple if you win its a HO if you lose its legit.
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If you pull the trigger on someone that is trying to avoid the HO, it's still a HO
No, by the definition of what a head on shot is it is not. In order for it to be a true head on merge, both planes need to have a firing solution. If one plane breaks or otherwise maneuvers to avoid the head on at the merge, it is no longer a head on merge as the plane maneuvering is no longer presenting a head on merge.
ack-ack
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Also instead of HOing you could always try Jousting.
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Nope. Now you are off a gun to gun solution and you are subject to frontal quarter attack. Truly different shot angles and no longer a HO. Your definition of a HO's envelope is too large.
With respect, I disagree. It's not just about angles, it's about intent and possible outcomes. If both players easily COULD HAVE a solution when they come within range to fire, but one chooses to evade instead, it's still a HO. In other words, if you ATTEMPT to HO, any immediate resulting shot is a HO regardless of what your opponent does.
Ack-Ack, the point to me is that both players DO have a firing solution, but one chose not to take it. Depends partly on how early he maneuvered to avoid, I guess.
A non-HO, front quarter shot is where the shooter dispatches the victim before the latter is able to bring his guns to bear, or from an angle and relative vectors in which it never would have been possible for the victim to get a shot in even if the attacker is only 20 degrees off his nose. The victim never had a solution open to him, the attacker didn't win a dice roll, he knew he wasn't going to get a face full of lead whatever happened.
That being said, some HOs are more equal than others. If I'm taking off and can barely get wheels off the ground before Captain Vulchoid screams down the runway straight toward my nose guns-a-blazing, I'm going to pitch up and shoot him if I possibly can, and why not? He's got e and position, I can't possibly get out of his way and am probably dead whatever I do anyway, so it's on him to avoid the HO if he doesn't want to roll the dice on dying. The same is generally true whenever one player has such a commanding advantage in e and position that he can freely dictate the terms of the fight - if that ends up as a HO, it's primarily the fault of the dominant fighter, he could have avoided giving his opponent a shot while the opponent probably couldn't. And if you're flying a Brewster against a 110 your opponent would be stupid not to take advantage of any HO opportunity he gets - an opportunity that can only occur if the Brew driver does something very wrong.
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I don't like the HO because it's a crap shoot, sometime you win sometimes you loose, sometime you collide. In all three of those senarios show me whats fun about them. I fly for the fight and will almost never fire on a nose to nose pass. With that being said, I almost never make a nose on nose pass, there for it's much harder for them to HO.
^^^ This.
Here is the problem with a HO. It's not 50/50 as some seem to suggest all the time. It's less (ususally depending on what plane you are in). The outcome is not binary (WIN/LOSE). The outcome can be any number of things:
YOU WIN, HE LOSES.
HE WINS, YOU LOSES
YOU BOTH LOSE
YOU WIN, BUT COLLIDE
YOU WIN BUT MISS PARTS
etc etc etc
Therefore, it is a low percentage shot. So depending on the situation you are in it might be a smart move (ex: You are in a 10v1) or it might be a dumb move (ex: you are in a turny fragile plane in a 1v1). However, the majority of the time, it's plain stupid to HO from a tactical perspective. If you are in a 1v1; and are going for the head-on in most cases you need your brain examined.
Then Again I Had Some Guy Tell GDZILA last night that he "HO'd his LANCS" how dare him.... :headscratch:
Papa
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^^^ This.
Here is the problem with a HO. It's not 50/50 as some seem to suggest all the time. It's less (ususally depending on what plane you are in). The outcome is not binary (WIN/LOSE). The outcome can be any number of things:
YOU WIN, HE LOSES.
HE WINS, YOU LOSES
YOU BOTH LOSE
YOU WIN, BUT COLLIDE
YOU WIN BUT MISS PARTS
etc etc etc
Therefore, it is a low percentage shot. So depending on the situation you are in it might be a smart move (ex: You are in a 10v1) or it might be a dumb move (ex: you are in a turny fragile plane in a 1v1). However, the majority of the time, it's plain stupid to HO from a tactical perspective. If you are in a 1v1; and are going for the head-on in most cases you need your brain examined.
Then Again I Had Some Guy Tell GDZILA last night that he "HO'd his LANCS" how dare him.... :headscratch:
Papa
i was in a 5 v 1 once. the only one not ho'ing was me. the funny thing was, that the guy that got me didn't get me by ho'ing.....he made a beautiful snapshot.
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I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..
Scenario #1
I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't.
So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario.. :salute
When you get good you will start to recognize these situations before they happen and craft your maneuver ahead of time so instead of a HO merge, you create a spiral climb or a reversal, depending on E states, throttle control, etc. One you turn nose on at a guy and he turns nose on at you, it's a tough spot. The trick is to recognize that it is going to come to that before it does and do something different.
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It takes 2.
So very true. Everytime I put this on Channel 200 after someone whines, a whole bunch of noobs start spitting in anger, telling me their definition of a HO. Which is usually this: "he pulled the trigger and killed me! waaa :cry"
I just simply say: "Why the hell did you fly into his guns then???"
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I never mind about a head on, why? Well #1 I refuse to fire unless I see tracers exit their guns. #2 if they want to ho they are screwed cause my Yak-9U's 20mm will rip straight through his plane. :)
-BigBOBCH
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Always expect your opponent will ho you and adjust accordingly. Once they go by my 3/9 line, I've already begun my turn, where as he hasn't because he was depending on that opening shot for the kill. The rest is just a matter of baiting him into a mistake and adjusting for position, staying a move or two ahead of him.
For the most part, the guys that ho on 1st merge are fairly predictable and can be beaten easily(if I don't have to break off because of another con) It's the guys that DON'T ho on the merge that I have the hardest time with. That tells me that they are confident in their ACMs and don't need to take a 50/50 chance at a kill. :salute
Avoiding a headon merge is something I wish the AH trainers would have a clinic on sometime.
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So very true. Everytime I put this on Channel 200 after someone whines, a whole bunch of noobs start spitting in anger, telling me their definition of a HO. Which is usually this: "he pulled the trigger and killed me! waaa :cry"
I just simply say: "Why the hell did you fly into his guns then???"
I got shot down the other nite trying to barrel roll thur the CHog guns. I honestly was trying to avoid it, but he was bound and determined to shoot me in the face. Sure I could have dove away and let Merlin take over but .............
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With respect, I disagree. It's not just about angles, it's about intent and possible outcomes. If both players easily COULD HAVE a solution when they come within range to fire, but one chooses to evade instead, it's still a HO. In other words, if you ATTEMPT to HO, any immediate resulting shot is a HO regardless of what your opponent does.
Ack-Ack, the point to me is that both players DO have a firing solution, but one chose not to take it. Depends partly on how early he maneuvered to avoid, I guess.
You are still incorrect though, all you are doing is trying to change the definition of what a head on shot is to fit your own needs. You can only have a head on shot if both planes are traveling head on, if one bandit maneuvers to avoid it, it is no longer a head on merge regardless if you try and change it to fit your own self-made definition.
For example, Bandit A and Bandit B are heading towards each other in what appears to be a head on merge. Just prior to the merge, Bandit B pulls into the vertical or similiar maneuver and no longer presents a head on target and if Bandit A fires, he no longer is firing from a head on position and instead has an angle in front of the 3/9 line of Bandit B (lead turn (i.e. front deflection shot)) which isn't a head on by virtue of its definition.
Again, regardless of what your personal definition of what a head on shot is, the above scenario is clearly not a head on shot by definition.
ack-ack
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Also instead of HOing you could always try Jousting.
Clearly this. Clearly.
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Learn to fear that guy who does not HO, for he will hand you your arse in most cases.
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I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..
Scenario #1
I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't. unless you were both shooting at each other, neither of ya ho'd either. the collision in that instance should be easily avoided though. you should be shallow diving, and possibly off to one side or the other. give yourself some distance to be able to turn into him.
So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario.. :salute
you don't have to turn away to avoid him ho'ing you. go right by him. if you remotely think he's going to try to ho ya, then do not point your nose directly at his plane. as soon as you do, you're setting yourself up for it. slight maneuvers to avoid it.
have you talked to a trainer in the ta about this yet? they can help ya in about a half hour.
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You ask tough questions...........
As your skill level begins to increase you will "see" the ways to get out of the ho......... But as you stated, you can't just turn away and you have to always expect a Head On...............
It ain't easy. When Fugitive is flying, he is still just a red icon. I'm 99% he isn't going to ho, but how do I know it's him.
These days, it basically breaks down like this....... If the enemy opens fire from 1000 dtt, he is a newb and I'll beat his ho with my own. If the enemy hasn't fired at 600 dtt, he is either don5090 or not going to ho. (don5090 likes to get close) At 400 dtt, pull a hi G move and the enemy, even the good ho'ers, will have trouble to get back into a firing position....... Furthermore depending on his skill level will pull hard on his stick, lose a ton of E, and be ready to die.
But there are so many philosophies people use for the anti-ho. It's a crap shoot sometimes.
umm he calls himself donHO for a reason. I have flown with don since day one. he is a great wingman, but if you choose to go nose on with him he will let loose.
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you don't have to turn away to avoid him ho'ing you. go right by him. if you remotely think he's going to try to ho ya, then do not point your nose directly at his plane. as soon as you do, you're setting yourself up for it. slight maneuvers to avoid it.
have you talked to a trainer in the ta about this yet? they can help ya in about a half hour.
Honestly, the best way to avoid a head on shot on the merge is to create seperation, ideally both horizontal and vertical seperation. This way you have options going into the merge and options immediately after the merge. Dipping under on the merge, a barrel roll, etc to avoid a head on pass is risky at best when you could have avoided it by just creating some seperation.
ack-ack
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IMO any time you fail to remove yourself from a position where the other guy can point his nose at your nose and you both have a firing solution you have a ho situation. That's pretty self explanatory. Its your fault and and the other guys fault. Its also a legitimate tactic. Nobody should complain.
If you attempted to avoid the HO at the last minute its still your fault and you can't complain. Legitimate tactic. Nobody should complain.
HO's that are stupid are the ones that are completely unnecessary. But they are usually always beneficial to the person being HO'ed. Was flying P47-N once, a spit and a la7 jumped me with alt, they gave up alt and positional advantage and repeatedly HO'ed. Managed to lose my engine but they both were shot down.
Really the only HO you should complain about is the one that you initiate when you have an advantage and give it up to get the kill first or because you were stupid, all the rest are usually avoidable if you take measures prior to getting into firing range. The rare unavoidable HO's that occur when you are at a disadvantage and likely to die anyway are beneficial to you because they were probably the only way you were gonna get a decent firing solution anyway.
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Honestly, the best way to avoid a head on shot on the merge is to create seperation, ideally both horizontal and vertical seperation. This way you have options going into the merge and options immediately after the merge. Dipping under on the merge, a barrel roll, etc to avoid a head on pass is risky at best when you could have avoided it by just creating some seperation.
ack-ack
when i realize that they're trying to go for the ho, i tend to push the nose over a little....not much....just enough to get me under them....and i try to slip the plane one way or the other. i try to make it so they think they're gonna get the ho on me till it's too late..,,,,if it works, then they've already screwed the merge.
one thing i've noticed the last few weeks, is that those going for the ho will roll inverted as soon as they realize i'm going underneath them, in an attempt to gain a shot. this is fine though, as they almost always get going too fast, and by the time they can start coming back up, i've established an alt. advantage, which i work my bellybutton off to keep from then on.
it doesn't work as well as i'd like it to all the time, but it helps me survive longer each fight, giving me chance to learn more.
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I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six.
In time, you will learn to start your "turn(s)" before you actually merge. This is called a lead turn. If you set up your lead turn correctly, and at the right time, you will never be in a nose-to-nose merge. Now ... if I set up a real crappy lead turn and I get raked from nose to tail, as we merge ... not an HO as far as I am concerned. When I try to setup a lead turn, I want to create what I consider a good angle to be in at the merge (for a reversal) AND at the same time, not present myself as a good target.
As Ack Ack pointed out, when I see a guy coming at me, I don't vector my plane directly towards his nose. I start the separation (thinking lead tunr) by dropping my nose (to pick up a little extra speed) and then banking either right or left ... this is the vertical and horizontal separation that Ack Ack mentioned.
Now, as I make those adjustments, I watch his reaction and make similar adjustments as he gets closer. This is all being done to create my lead turn and if I have done it right and the other guy is still pressing to get a nose to nose solution, he will be dead within 1 or 2 turns, if he decides to stick around.
As mentioned above, if you come upon a guy that is not pressing the nose-to-nose merge, tighten your seat belt 'cause your in for a real fight.
Ack Ack has defined the "technical" head on ... others are talking about the "intentioned" head on. When I hear HO, I always think of the technical definition. It seems that about 98% of the time, I run into the intentioned head on ... guns blazing from D800 on it ... but I don't consider, when we merge, it to be a HO merge because I haven't given them my nose and I don't usually have a guns solution on them due to my angle for a lead turn.
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Honestly, the best way to avoid a head on shot on the merge is to create seperation, ideally both horizontal and vertical seperation. This way you have options going into the merge and options immediately after the merge. Dipping under on the merge, a barrel roll, etc to avoid a head on pass is risky at best when you could have avoided it by just creating some seperation.
ack-ack
this!
I have not been successfullly ho'd in a "merge" in long time.
there ARE other ways to get into a fight rather than fly directly at the guy and hope for the best :)
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Go HERE (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/stage3lessons/lesson_26_HO%20Avoidance.htm)
:old:
Learn it.
Love it.
Live it.
The most important step in ending the cycle of HO is attitude. If all you do is stop trying to horse the guns around on target at every opportunity then you will take a big step towards becoming part of the solution.
You don't need fancy skills to avoid the HO. The skills help you advance your game to the level needed to achieve success but all you have to do to avoid the HO is keep your brain off the trigger and on flying your airplane.
Don't fly the guns, fly the plane.
:joystick: :airplane:
Success in air combat has one definition.
Bring your guns into the weapons employment zone while denying the enemy a guns solution.
If you fail at either you FAIL. If you succeed at both you WIN. :aok
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i love it when ppl try n do it because it gives alot of information away about that person. It tells me theyre a noob and are scared. And usually after i avoid that crap with a quick roll and theyre spraying like crazy im already halfway through the reversal on them. dont think ive been ho'd in like 3 months. keep on Hoing, i look foward to it. :banana:
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I think you are generalizing too much. some 2 weeker vs a don5090 ho for instance......... I judge the experience by when they start firing. The 2 weeker is spraying at 1.5 k, while donHO waits for you to think there is no ho.
i love it when ppl try n do it because it gives alot of information away about that person. It tells me theyre a noob and are scared. And usually after i avoid that crap with a quick roll and theyre spraying like crazy im already halfway through the reversal on them. dont think ive been ho'd in like 3 months. keep on Hoing, i look foward to it. :banana:
<S> don5090 <S>
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i love it when ppl try n do it because it gives alot of information away about that person. It tells me theyre a noob and are scared. And usually after i avoid that crap with a quick roll and theyre spraying like crazy im already halfway through the reversal on them. dont think ive been ho'd in like 3 months. keep on Hoing, i look foward to it. :banana:
just an FYI....you'll find a lot of those that ho, are "vets" at the game.
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just an FYI....you'll find a lot of those that ho, are "vets" at the game.
Not in my experience ... what vets will do, if you make a crappy (lead turn) merge, they (and I) will rake you from end to end ... from the top, bottom, or sides ... especially if there are other baddies in the area.
That's a case where I would not consider it a HO ... YMMV.
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Not in my experience ... what vets will do, if you make a crappy (lead turn) merge, they (and I) will rake you from end to end ... from the top, bottom, or sides ... especially if there are other baddies in the area.
That's a case where I would not consider it a HO ... YMMV.
the only reason i consider some things a ho, is because they seem to aim delibretly for a nose to nose shot, and when i try to avoid...and i'm gettin pretty good at avoidance now.....but since i tried to avoid, they call it not a ho.
i know you're not one that ho's, but there are many vets that will do it in the blink of an eye......when they have the advantage too.
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i was referring to the guys who see u goin head to head with them from 5k and they dont even try anything else despite having the time to do it. CLearly they have already decided on it. If it was a vet thats worth fighting than they would have done something within the 4 or 5 seconds before the merge. Even when you move out the way theyre still spraying at weird negative G angles. I have no comment on the split second stuff people referrin to here.
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I've been HO'd by someone who opened up at the very last second... I was actually pretty PO'd because it was just us and I thought we were setting up to fight it out... I have also been Ho'd by some who started firing at 1.5k out... lol
I went from not caring about HOs to hating them and now I'm back to not caring again... = )
I also found cranking your rudder will keeping it rolling really tricks them up...