Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Viper61 on September 11, 2010, 11:01:25 PM
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ALLIED side statement and request:
JABO's aren't working at all. They didn't work for Frame 01, they didn't work for frame 02. The scenario set up isn't good for them regardless of the squad that flys them or the tactics the CIC can come up with. The only hope is that the AXIS side would forget to defend a target so they can get in. And that ain't likely to happen.
The heck with the points and the target values for frame 3 as we have probably lost anyway. So lets have fun and at least even the kill ratio's.
Send in small bomber formations to every target. Put the rest into good fighters with a 2 or 3 times figure of escorts to bombers and lets have at it. If nothing else lets have a good classic 43' 44' high altitude fight and finish this scenario.
Just my 2 cents.
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Doesn't help that in 2 frames so far the strike groups I was part of weren't together. Frame 1 we were escorts. Our attack group launched 6 sectors away and got jumped by fighters at the air spawn. Frame 2 we flew mossies. Our escorts never showed up. When we asked where they were they were 4 sectors away. Our secondary attack group had to go clean to escort us to target.
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I agree it's not ideal, however.... The strike package the USMC/71Sqn were sweeping in front of was able to make it to the target. There was some enemy engaging them, for sure, but most of them got near the target and dropped ord on it. Not all made it back, but they definitely got TO the target.
That said, in Frame 1 we were strike and didn't even make it halfway to the target zone before 3 different squadrons tore into us. I personally think it's the air spawns. The axis know exactly where we will be, what direction we will come from, and so they sit there waiting in the stratosphere, rather than patrolling along a wider front, rather than trying to guess any 1 of multiple entry routes, etc.
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Doesn't help that in 2 frames so far the strike groups I was part of weren't together. Frame 1 we were escorts. Our attack group launched 6 sectors away and got jumped by fighters at the air spawn. Frame 2 we flew mossies. Our escorts never showed up. When we asked where they were they were 4 sectors away. Our secondary attack group had to go clean to escort us to target.
Even if we had hooked up with those guys last week, and the others this week, we'd still have a problem. In order for Jabos to work, you have to create and maintain air superiority over the target area until the Jabos can get their mission accomplished and get into a position to defend themselves. Once that's accomplished, you have the flak guns to deal with, which in this game are lethal, unless the ack is dialed way down. Even at the .3 we have this frame, flying A-20s or Mossies into a medium field is murder unless there's been some sort of coordinated ack suppression mission. Ack suppression means more Jabos--tough to manage.
Level bombers provide at least a partial solutions to both problems. They possess a credible self-defense capability that allows them to operate without air superiority and make up for when the escorts have their hands full. They also can drop accurately clear of the ack over those bigger airfields.
Who knows what we'll get in frame 3, but I agree with Viper61--get rid of the Jabos and lets roll B-17s/B-24s with lots of escorts. I don't know which of the Brit fighters has the longest legs (probably the Tempest), but throw some drop tanks on and lets rock...
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In frame 1 the Damned were in Mossies and with good comms with our escort were able to get in, hit our target (a refinery) and get out with the loss of one to enemy fighter which the rest of us killed. We reloaded and hit a secondary target before the LW dogpiled that target-which was already down and we were all killed. Should have just gone home when the place went down to save our planes but we hung around a minute too long and paid for it.
Frame 2 we escorted the 9GIAP's Mossies to their target on a similar mission and with good comms between us they were able to get in and hit their target. We engaged the cap fighters a sector or so out and killed them or distracted them long enough for the Mossies to drop and then they went offensive and killed several more of the defenders at the target. All reloaded, talked it up and hit a secondary target again encountering NME defenders in the area. While we escorts were all killed in the process we got our jabos in to the target and many of them got home safe at endframe. I thought it was a fun frame. Good flying and good teamwork all around. <S> to the 9GIAP and 801Sqn FAA.
I gotta disagree with the Jabo thing. Both frames we were made almost straight away from the air spawn by jet scouts that called in fighters to us and were able to slip them. Maybe we were just lucky but I'd be inclined to chalk it up to good mission discipline and excellent communication. Seems to me the nights we have a better mission in FSO the groups assigned stuck to the plan and did their jobs. The nights we didn't it was usually a cluster. And we've all been there!
Can't be the planes as the allied birds are more than capable. If you wanted to put the shoe on the other foot they're WAY more capable at high alt than the LW birds are but that's another whole argument.
I will agree tho having posted before on this subject that I think the ack guns are a little on the strong side. While I know the settings that we use in FSO themselves haven't changed, I wonder if something about the guns has changed within the game that we don't see. I've been killed with a single hit by ack low over a field a couple of times recently and I never remember this having happened in the past. So yeah having to knock out the acks so you can even GET to the hangars(or whatever) has apparently become a PITA.
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Simply stacking the level bombers with formations at 30k doesn't help the axis either... They're rather over-modeled in this game and totally give the allies superior numbers, superior force, and superior firepower.
I like a mixed bag, jabo and heavies. I think that we have to keep working to find the balance that makes everybody happy, but we're on the path.
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Simply stacking the level bombers with formations at 30k doesn't help the axis either... They're rather over-modeled in this game and totally give the allies superior numbers, superior force, and superior firepower.
I like a mixed bag, jabo and heavies. I think that we have to keep working to find the balance that makes everybody happy, but we're on the path.
Without getting into a discussion of performance modeling, we can probably all agree that, borrowing from my original thread on the matter, 7-8 formations of heavies, escorted by 15-20 fighters flying towards a target at 25,000 +/- a few thousand is realistic and balanced, if the intercepting force has 25-30 fighters. The bomber force has sufficient numbers to bring a competitive fight, defend itself, and get to the target without bringing an overwhelming force against the defenders. The defenders, likewise, have enough aircraft to engage the escorts and attack the bombers simultaneously, with a force that doesn't overwhelm the attackers. This hypothetical would be an enjoyable fight for both sides, with enough balance and immersion to provide a realistic approximation of a small scale, group level effort against a target, within the constraints of playability and game mechanics. Yes?
The problem with Jabo tactics in general is that, borrowing operational doctrine that goes back to the period and is still current today, you must have local air superiority to use strike fighters. Heavy/strategic bomber doctrine is the only doctrine that allows for the attacking aircraft to fight their way in, survive, and withdraw. Jabos must have a covering force, and the ability to operate practically unmolested over the objective area in order to succeed. This is especially difficult to achieve in FSO in a manner that results in a competitive fight for both sides. Either the defenders get steam-rolled by a large attacking force or the attackers are overwhelmed. It doesn't happen every time, but often enough to make me hate to see my squad assigned to a Jabo force, either as the strikers or the escorts.
Just my opinion...
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I'm sure the 8th AF would have loved to have equal numbers of escorts for every bomber in the air.
Problem with a setup like that is that outside of the 109K4, the entire LW planest still suffers above 25k.
On top of that, many bombers flew much lower than 25K in a 1000-plane formation, allowing the LW fighters to pick on the lower, easily attackable boxes, which isn't something you get here in FSO.
Then there's the problem of jamming so many bombers, so many escorts, then twice as many attackers (so, as you say, they can hit bombers and escorts at once) that with short icons and lag you'll be lucky to get any icons at all until an enemy shoots you down at 800 yards. Doesn't happen AS bad as it used to, AH had a patch that increased the number of icons it can display, but it'll still have issues with massive hordes.
I honestly think FSO should go with full icons. It would change some of the "social dynamics" (so to speak) and I think it might be better when you get large-plane formations like we do.
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fall 1944 had jabo and bomber raids, personally i think it is the 50/50 split that may be the problem ...
of course the 10-1 historic split would not be fun but i would think a jabo/escort #s roughly = to the interceptor #s
and then add the buffs so the axis allied split would be something like 225 - 175 ...
also timing is everything and the t+70 rule gives the allies a lot more options than they have been using timing and altitude wise ...
imo there is nothing in the set up that severely overburdens the allies, and as some have said the plane match up favors the allies at least at the higher altitudes if not totally.
imo the allies just have not solved their problems as well as the axis have this time. i think some good thought and effort in planning and good execution the allies should be very competitive here.
i will post more after the series and we can see if my thoughts are undermined by the special rules or something i am missing ...
++S++
t
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A few comments I would like to make.
Average bombing alts for the 8th AF over Occupied Europe was at least 20,000 feet. Raids were done between 20k and 29k. There were several reasons for this; The first of which is that the B-24s best alt is 25k and the B-17s is 29k. Both bombers could fly faster the higher they flew from S.L. to 25,000 feet. Secondly was the Flak. Flying below 20k was not done because of the heavy AAA defenses, not even at night. Lastly the escort fighters operated at best at alts above 20k, especially the P-47 series.
Escort to bomber ratio. Well, this varies a lot depending on the year. The 8th AF flew from 1942-45 and peaked @ mid 1944 as far as total combat power. In June of 1944 it could muster @ 2000 heavy bombers and @ 950 fighters. Thats operational and crewed a/c that could actually roll on a mission. Many times missions were flown with as many escorts as fighters, but the ratio depended on the exact raid. It could easily fly 3 x 300 bomber raids and have them all escorted with an equal # of fighters at that point of the war. To put it in FSO perspective, for every 12 formations of B-17s or B-24s, you could have anywhere from 18-36 escorting fighters.
LW fighter tactics tended to be to attack bomber groups and formations that had suffered losses already just like you tend to see in FSO. Stragglers and bomber flights that were damaged or missing a plane were singled out. Reasons are obvious enough to anybody that has tried a run on a tight bomber group.
"1000 plane raids". Were not the rule. They tended to "up" that #, but usually bombed several different targets. Again, it was specific to the mission. Anywhere from 100-800 heavies, escorted by fighters could be expected to raid any specific target on any given operational day, with the total # of a/c upped anywhere from several hundred to several thousand.
Added to that from June 1944-May 1945 is the two ETO Tactical Air Forces (RAF and USAAF) which could muster @ 800 bombers and @ 2000 fighters combined that flew medium bombers and fighter-bombers. They could easily escort any bomber group with many fighters if they chose to do it.
RAF Bomber Command had 1100 heavy bombers that usually operated at night (Lancs, Halifaxes and Mosquitos) for those interested in the #s there. Same thing, some raids were all on one target, often they attacked several different targets.
The notion that somehow bombers flying high or without a decent escort is somehow wrong or innacurate just isnt the case. Also the logs dont show the LW doing poorly in setups like these despite some claims to the contrary: "Mighty Eighth", "Der Kanalkampf", "Point Blank Range", "High Blue Battle", and this one "Should Have Been a Milk Run"...the LW has scored more kills, not less, and thats just a few I looked at featuring Allied heavies vs the LW in the ETO. Plane performance issues or no, they seem to make out ok.
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One question about 9th Air Force. By the time the 9th hit its peak capability, it was benefiting from theater-wide air superiority and localized air supremacy over parts of France. There are not many historical examples of 9th AF aircraft getting tangled up in major furballs or suffering large air-to-air losses from German interceptors, are there?
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Well as far as FSO goes and im not telling you anything you dont know already its made to be challenging and historical. Nobody wants to fly a bunch of Jabo runs and not see any air action at all so the ratios get tweaked of course. Jabo duty in FSO has always been "busy" to say the least. At least the times I have done it ;)
The Tactical Air Forces saw a lot of action but it tended to be low-med alt stuff and spread over a larger area with smaller units involved. After all they were covering the Allied armies on the move so they were not flying large scale raids like the strategic air forces were. It was a different kind of air war in that respect. Many of the encounters tended to be smaller scale. For that matter the bulk of the Eastern Front was like that as neither the LW nor the VVS flew large scale strategic missions in the way that was done in the West. More attritional I guess you could say. The MED and the PAC also had times where it was more of a tactical air contest.
Just commenting on the history of it not so much re this design per se. Some setups have Jabos some dont. Its nice to have a mix so they all dont feel the same but I know everybody has their favorite styles.
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a couple of points ...
it is not the altitude that is in question so much, it is the bombing accuracy at altitude that is a little hard to take.
i.e. there should be a drawback to flying above the possibility of effective enemy fighter contact.
yes the 8th AF could put up a lot of fighters but most of the time most of them were not on station for the entire trip, or even at the same time for that matter, so that even late in the war the Luftwaffe often managed local air superiority.
i.e. there should be combat time limitations to extremely long escort missions.
as i see it anyway.
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So i guess it will not be possible to have a new ETO event "Bloody Summer of 43' " where U.S. bomber flew into Germany unescorted do to extended range of the fighters.
That is one event i would love to see, all allies squads (200+ ppl) in B-17s and B-24 (targeting factories, cities) while the Axis defends with 109G-2/6 and 190A-5 and 110C.
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So i guess it will not be possible to have a new ETO event "Bloody Summer of 43' " where U.S. bomber flew into Germany unescorted do to extended range of the fighters.
That is one event i would love to see, all allies squads (200+ ppl) in B-17s and B-24 (targeting factories, cities) while the Axis defends with 109G-2/6 and 190A-5 and 110C.
That should be a lot of fun for the bomber pilots...
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Why would it not be it be possible Oakranger? if an FSO CM designs it (a 1943 setup with no escorts) I guess we can run it. Wether it would be a well received design? I suppose maybe open for debate as you would have 1/2 the FSO players flying bombers for 3 frames straight. That being said I have a 1943 setup that has some of the components you describe; it would entail a setup that had both "long" and "short" targets with P-47s and Spitfires as escorts but they would only have the fuel to escort on the "short" target list, say 4 of each, so you would end up with both kinds of missions (escorted and non escorted) in all three frames. Its absolutely doable and I would like to see it run in the future. Perhaps using the BoB map, Arden, or Germany, I would have to see what would work best. FSO is about variety, no two setups has to be the same.
"Bloody Summer of 43" I like it. Now for a screenplay and a pitch to the studio! I wonder if De Caprio would be willing to do a screentest as Gen. Eaker ;) marketing, marketing....Im seeing some of those scantily clad babes used in the nose art of the heavies on McDonlads glasses. Its all about the merchandising you know...
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That should be a lot of fun for the bomber pilots...
Why would it not be it be possible Oakranger? if an FSO CM designs it (a 1943 setup with no escorts) I guess we can run it. Wether it would be a well received design? I suppose maybe open for debate as you would have 1/2 the FSO players flying bombers for 3 frames straight. That being said I have a 1943 setup that has some of the components you describe; it would entail a setup that had both "long" and "short" targets with P-47s and Spitfires as escorts but they would only have the fuel to escort on the "short" target list, say 4 of each, so you would end up with both kinds of missions (escorted and non escorted) in all three frames. Its absolutely doable and I would like to see it run in the future. Perhaps using the BoB map, Arden, or Germany, I would have to see what would work best. FSO is about variety, no two setups has to be the same.
"Bloody Summer of 43" I like it. Now for a screenplay and a pitch to the studio! I wonder if De Caprio would be willing to do a screentest as Gen. Eaker ;) marketing, marketing....Im seeing some of those scantily clad babes used in the nose art of the heavies on McDonlads glasses. Its all about the merchandising you know...
I know that we have a event of early 43 using the BoB map. "Bloody Summer of 43" (which it was refer to by many of the BG that participate in the operations that summer) would focus strictly on the long rang bombers into Germany from September and October of 43 where they had P-47 as escorts but where limited on range. Also, this would be the first time U.S. bombers faced the Bf-190.
The targets would be Schweinfurt, where the infamous "Black Thursday" occurred, Regensburg, Stuggart (various targets), Wiesbaden / Frankfurt, Saarlautern, Sarreguemnines to name a few.
We would used the Germany map terrain "winter map" or a new map that has Switzerland in it.....well i guess the winter terrain will do since it has a little bit of Swiss country in it.
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Yes I understand im not reffering to a past FSO design but an unpublished setup that has not been run yet. No timeline on running it and it could be somebody else will tackle that design before I get to it.
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Yes I understand im not reffering to a past FSO design but an unpublished setup that has not been run yet. No timeline on running it and it could be somebody else will tackle that design before I get to it.
i think you run it.
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See.... recreating real events has a problem.... You know who wins.
By a landslide.
By a massive, country-devastating, landslide. We bombed them so badly, destroyed them so badly, they were in shambles for AGES after the war ended.
Keep that in mind. Now, for the bombers that fly 3 hours, drop, and land unopposed they might as well fly OFFLINE with similar results.
For the axis, why bother even upping against laser-accurate gunnery platforms flying unhistorically high, unhistorically fast, bombing unhistorically laser-accurate from 30k+, in your planes which can barely chase them, barely climb that high, and will get shot out of the sky in droves?
No reason for either side to even participate.
THAT is why we don't recreate actual events. FSO is about balance, about trying to get immersion, NOT about setting up no-contest wars with no chance or hope of victory.
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Who "wins"? is dependant on a purely subjective points system designed, implemented and scored by the FSO designer. I can ensure any side loses if I wanted to. I could say for every B-17 shot down...that was worth 1000 pts for the Axis...and for every Allied kill of an Axis fighter the Allies get 1 pt. Done. Over. So recreating a historical setup is not the issue. What are we doing in SEA events if we are not doing WW2 setups? isn't that what we are here for? otherwise why bother. I don't see your point.
Running SEA events without bombers would be pointless. Might as well just have a fighter duelling league and call it a day. If you are looking for perfection in every aspect of the sim I suppose you are setting yourself up for a disappointment. In any event I didnt create the sim and neither did the other CMs so we work with what we have. With 400+ showing up weekly it seems a few have fun with it despite the imperfections. We do try and get the most out of what we have to work with.
Regards.
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----Quote from: Viper61 on September 12, 2010, 10:05:38 PM
I agree this whole "no fly zone", H+10 ALLIED spawn hasn't worked very well. Good intentions and concept, just to many moving parts and a few personnel that either don't read or understand the rules or dare I say.... "bend da rules".
Both sides need to spawn in together from the start and when air spawns are used the "other" sides airfields need to be backed up about 200 miles and this keeps anyone from "bending" the rules and allows the "spawning" side to recover from the start.
Also I think an issue has been the location of the air spawns for frame 1 and 2. To close together. The other side knows right where to look. Fixed for frame 3.
Again all lessons learned I hope.
And who ever this "Cell" guy is......... just needs to have his account revoked in my opinion.------End Quote
So you're saying that not only do we need to give Allies air spawns and have both sides spawn at the same time (Luftwaffe spawning on runways), but also move the Axis active runways back 200 miles?
Have you lost your mind? As of now, we are roughly 75 miles form the Allied spawn points. We cant go within 40 miles of the spawn points. That gives the Allies, who spawn in at 27k, a 40 mile buffer to climb. Meanwhile at this point which would be about T+25, all Luftwaffe birds are struggling to get to 26k and above.
Another point, Allied air spawns too close together and that gives us a place to look? So, not only do you want to give the Allies an advantage with altitude, time, and restrictions on where the Luftwaffe can fly, but you also want to break our backs as to where you are coming from? This is a freaking FSO dude, not war. it is supposed to be fun and I agree that all Special Events need to be histoically accurate but all this technical additive BS is BS. There should not be a no-fly zone, and the Allies should indeed start at T+10.
I'm not saying give the Luftwaffe the upper hand, but my God man, cut us some slack. Frame 1 it was as close to even as it was going to get. Our jets were in the right place at the right times all Frame it seemed. We were able to let the whole Luftwaffe know where every Allied attack group was located by T+40. Result: Allied was raped. Result: Allied complains, Allied gets what they want, Allied obliterates Luftwaffe in Frame 3.
Lastly, if you put the Frame 1 details back in, NO no-fly-zone, 4 air spawns, rtb at 24, Allies get raped. Even if you add a rtb base, Allies get raped. A no-fly zone CRIPPLES OUR ONLY ADVANTAGE. Giving the Allies more air spawns to the West and South, BREAKS THE LUFTWAFFE"S BACK. I'm not complaining because we are going to lose and it will not be fun, I am complaining because of the changes are so radical. I'm not complaining because we are going to lose and it will not be fun, I am complaining because of the changes are so radical. And it seems that the CM's changed it after how successful Frame 1 was for the Luftwaffe. The after Frame 2, the Luftwaffe lost but it was close. So they add these air spawns that give us no chance. That is what I am complaining about.
Almost like the Allies or CMs said, "well the Luftwaffe can't win and they won Frame 1, so let's cripple them for Frame 2. They barely lost Frame 2, for Frame 3 let's break their backs. This way history can repeat."
Don't get me wrong historical accuracy is very important, but leave it at objectives, planes, squads, bases, etc. A no-fly zone is not making anything more historically accurate except the result of the campaign. And I thought that was what FSO was about? Gives the losing side a chance to change history. It is impossible for the Luftwaffe to do so in Frame 3 due to the added BS in order to make THE RESULT historically accurate. That to me is BS.
EDIT: Typo.
perdweeb
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Who "wins"? is dependant on a purely subjective points system designed, implemented and scored by the FSO designer. I can ensure any side loses if I wanted to. I could say for every B-17 shot down...that was worth 1000 pts for the Axis...and for every Allied kill of an Axis fighter the Allies get 1 pt. Done. Over. So recreating a historical setup is not the issue.
Wrong.
You can set the points up so that every LW plane will be wasted out of the sky and the LW will still "win" - but everybody will hate your guts and half the pilots in the FSO will quit in outrage and protest.
Nobody wants to fly that kind of setup. It's all about the gameplay balance. The points is the other half of it, but is not the only thing that is "balanced" in these FSOs. As you know, it really boils down to the individual pilot, individual unit experiences. Sending 5 planes into a meat grinder of 50 is stupid and nobody will return to that again if subjected. That is why there are numerous rules such as "credible force" and "t+60" and all that. The entire FSO is set to give a measured, moderated, combat experience. It's unwritten that if you screw with the balance folks stop showing up, but it's there nonetheless.
After-the-fact edit: P.S. I'm not really trying to pick a fight or anything. Just debating the issue.
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the shame of it is that instead of being forced to react to a plan and counter a strategy,
the conditions of the exercise were changed, and then changed again, so everyone is in the dark.
it sort of eliminates need and even the possibility for adjusted planning and execution in order to improve, and also limits the requirement of risk and determination required to execute the plan in the face of quality opposition.
i like the events, the FSO type of event requires good planning and determined execution.
sides should focus on those aspects, they should be encouraged to do so with resources geared to that goal,
instead of demanding and granting changes to the set-up/design, because that is or at least can be seen as being lame, less than one should expect from ones self in a competitive situation.
squads should have pride in all aspects of this type of event and take difficulty as a challenge to be met,
not as an excuse to seek a more favorable conditions.
once again i look at this set up and do not see the allies being initially over burdened at all.
+S+
t
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Allies have a cake walk for Frame 3.
I would absolutely love to see the Axis lay an old school beat down on them just to embarass those crying little wimps.
perdweeb
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Allies have a cake walk for Frame 3.
I would absolutely love to see the Axis lay an old school beat down on them just to embarass those crying little wimps.
perdweeb
No one is trying to ruin your FSO Perdweeb...
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Allies have a cake walk for Frame 3.
I would absolutely love to see the Axis lay an old school beat down on them just to embarass those crying little wimps.
perdweeb
Loosen up you panties their teacup. Only a few allies ppl are complaining about it.
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No one is trying to ruin your FSO...
If people are not trying to ruin my FSO why do they keep shooting at me? ;)
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If people are not trying to ruin my FSO why do they keep shooting at me? ;)
A........never mind.
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I never said FSO is being ruined...just giving my 2 cents.
perdweeb
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If people are not trying to ruin my FSO why do they keep shooting at me? ;)
Thats what happens when u steal Atticus's Boons Farm...baby gets cranky w/o his bottle. :rofl :rofl
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Thats what happens when u steal Atticus's Boons Farm...baby gets cranky w/o his bottle. :rofl :rofl
I'm after Bonesaw's stash now, he drinks the expensive stuff. :D
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LOL i thought it was Coog that has the hookup...
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LOL i thought it was Coog that has the hookup...
It's all in the family.
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Grrr....Shifty return the swill, I need to fly tonight. :lol