Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ump40 on September 23, 2010, 09:55:32 AM
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Recently i have had several occurances with a seemingly indestructable tiger tank. I dropped 3, 1000lb bombs scoring direct hits, ( the tank was actually sitting in the crater). Shortly after this occured i engaged a tiger with a single 500lb bomb (not the same tank) and destroyed it imediately. i was just wondering if this has happened to anyone else or if bomb release angle has any effect. Any and all feedback on this matter would be greatly appreciated. thnx....
Ump40
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Lag maybe? I don't play this game online, but similar things happen on other games.
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Filming it will usually help answer questions, you can post a link to the film here and that will make it easier to help.
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Recently i have had several occurances with a seemingly indestructable tiger tank. I dropped 3, 1000lb bombs scoring direct hits, ( the tank was actually sitting in the crater). Shortly after this occured i engaged a tiger with a single 500lb bomb (not the same tank) and destroyed it imediately. i was just wondering if this has happened to anyone else or if bomb release angle has any effect. Any and all feedback on this matter would be greatly appreciated. thnx....
Ump40
What altitude?
You need 1000 feet of travel for the bomb to arm.
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Plus it was a direct hit on your front end's graphics....... Perhaps not on the other end of things. Just trying to figure it out........
But the Tiger is not that way, I lost 3 of them yesterday. :cry
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I seems there are different batches of Tiggers ( ;)) around. Some pop when you look at them and some eat Cookies for lunch... :D
-C+
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What altitude?
You need 1000 feet of travel for the bomb to arm.
A 1000lb mass should destroy the Tiger. Someone else can do the energy calculation.
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No offense to the OP, but a direct hit on the Tiger with a 250lb bomb will take it out. I've yet to do it with a 100lb bomb, so that I can not say either way.
I'd be willing to bet the "direct hits" were not so, or there was drastic lag.
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When I up a Tiger it tends to die very quickly.
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:headscratch:
What altitude?
You need 1000 feet of travel for the bomb to arm.
A 1000lb mass should destroy the Tiger. Someone else can do the energy calculation.
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A 1000lb mass should destroy the Tiger. Someone else can do the energy calculation.
GV destruction doesn't really go by anything accurate when it comes to bombs, merely a game-play balance so tanks stand some chance against the swarms of bomb laden planes.
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:headscratch:
What are you scratching your head for. The bomb would slice through the steel of the Tiger like a hot knife through butter.
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You do realize he is taking about distance traveled and not explosive energy........ Right?
What are you scratching your head for. The bomb would slice through the steel of the Tiger like a hot knife through butter.
Wait for it, wait for it........................... ...... :headscratch:
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And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
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Yeah, I was in a similar situation one time. We had like 4-5 guys dropping bombs left and right all over this tiger, I come in with my A20 with one 500lber, direct hit, I get the kill. Was kinda funny cause there were guys dropping bigger bombs all over him.
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And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
Some are just plain old fashion slow between the ears. :D
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And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.
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You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.
well if it hadn't traveled far enough to arm and its kinetic energy isn't coded into the game, then how would an unexplodable feather possibly kill the tiger?
the only reasonable conclusion that may be drawn from Milo's statement is that he is inferring that it would be the transfer of the kinetic energy of the bomb, slamming into the armor of the tiger, causing the bomb to penetrate into the passenger/engine compartment of the tank and thus destroying/disabling the tiger without ever exploding the bomb.
this in essence is how most modern AP rounds work, (uranium depleted fletchet (?) rounds) they have no explosive head but instead use speed and kinetic energy to moltonized and vaporize the metal involved (armor and projectile) to superheat the internal compartment of the tank (passenger or engine) and thereby disable or detonate the tank or just kill the occupants.
the problems within this line of thought is that the falling bomb is made of inferior metals, does not have the proper tip nor does it generate enough speed/kinetic energy to defeat the armor plating of the tiger, or most tanks for that matter.
Tec is correct in his scepticism of Milo's theory. the AP rounds of the time used a directional shaped charge in the tip of the AP round to attack a very tiny section (4 to 6 inches in diameter) to moltonize the metal and create the vaporization of the tanks armor, and thus defeat the armor, not an area explosion which allows the entire face of the tank armor to absorb and displace the brunt of the energy.
i know and understand that my skill with technical terms is weak, but i hope that i made myself clear enough for you to understand my point Milo. although i understand what you are saying and that it seems like it would be just plain common sense, something so heavy falling so fast should punch a hole into the top of the tank. unfortunately in the real world it doesn't work the way you think it should. it has alot to do with the specific types of metals used in the making of the bomb and the armor and the way the were crafted.
bombs in general didn't need to be made of anything more than pig iron. that gave them the the strength and ability to break through concrete and brick and allowed for massive fragmentation upon explosion. armor on the other hand is made of at least extremely hardened steel. the pigs iron doesn't have the strength to pierce the steel because it breaks apart and colapses first, thus the kenetic energy of the bomb is actually absorbed by the bomb itself and never reaches the internals of the tank. thus the bomb bounces off without drastically effecting the armor of the tank.
hope this helps you to understand.
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So 25mm of steel is enough to to destroy a pig iron bomb. I suggest you look at bombs dropped on ships.
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You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.
I assume nothing, simply trying to clarify for the sake of others keeping up with the conversation. Also, the word "should" does not in any way imply that it is actually coded to behave that way in game.
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blah blah blah
TL:DR
My skepticism? Again, let me just point out that I made no comments one way or the other, and was simply trying to get the point that Milo made across for the benefit of those who misunderstood.
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So 25mm of steel is enough to to destroy a pig iron bomb. I suggest you look at bombs dropped on ships.
actually the bombs used against shipping were different in thier construction than the bombs used against building and above ground targets.
why dont we do this, you can either look it up (start here, http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb.html (http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb.html) go to the first listing for basics of dumb bombs and read the section on penetrating and armor piercing) or you can just sit here and talk about what you obviously dont know about and while your doing that ill forget all about it.
TL:DR
My skepticism? Again, let me just point out that I made no comments one way or the other, and was simply trying to get the point that Milo made across for the benefit of those who misunderstood.
your comment appeared to have an undertone of scketisism, if i was incorrect then i appologise.
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Research is hard, it's easier to just argue something you don't know. And it's much much easier to argue something you don't know than admit you are wrong.
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Research is hard, it's easier to just argue something you don't know. And it's much much easier to argue something you don't know than admit you are wrong.
as i have been guilty of this level of arrogance on an occassion or two i will completely agree without dispute :salute
unless that is you just feel like being argumentative....... :neener:
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( the tank was actually sitting in the crater).
Ump40
I have had this happen to me in the past were my Tiger was on a slope & a bomb fell near by & I ended up in the crater & partially underground & I just flat could not be killed. Granted I could not move either. I think it is a glitch that happens from time to time. Seen it happen with others & it has happened to me.
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Nice link to modern munitions.
Now read what it says are the targets for a WW2 American 1000lb GP bomb, especially the last target > medium cruisers :eek:. Not just the 1000lb GP but also the 250lb, 500lb and 2000lb GP bombs which all list ships as targets. :D
(http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs2.jpg)
Now what were you saying? :rolleyes:
AN-M65, http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html
Cruiser decks were 25-50mm thick.
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Well that is completely wrong actually. Just saying, completely, not even close to being true. The weight and density of the case would not do more than dent the armor.
And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
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Nice link to modern munitions.
Now read what it says are the targets for a WW2 American 1000lb GP bomb, especially the last target > medium cruisers :eek:. Not just the 1000lb GP but also the 250lb, 500lb and 2000lb GP bombs which all list ships as targets. :D
(http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs2.jpg)
Now what were you saying? :rolleyes:
AN-M65, http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html
Cruiser decks were 25-50mm thick.
cool chart, i wish it stated on the bottom where it was from. do you know if this was actually a military chart or is it a chart created by a researcher? not doubting its authenticity or accuracy, would just like to know how much weight it carries by pedigree if i ever chose to use it in future discussions.
what that chart fails to depict though is the tips used by the individual bombs. were they tipped with a hardened armor piercing nose? were they tipped with the propeller type surface detonating nose? etc etc.
if the tips were designed for penetration beneath the deck of the cruiser then they had to be of a penetrating or armor piercing design, if they were intended for surface detonation then the bomb would not penetrate the armor of the deck of the ship (or the top armor of the tiger). if the penetrating/armor piercing bomb does not hit a hardened target it will sink many feet into the earth before (if at all) detonating, losing most of its destructive capability to absorption into the earth. it shall leave a pretty hole, but it shall do little if any real damage.
in addition, the deck of the cruiser may have been armor plate, but the guns equipment and people above the deck were much softer targets and very susceptible to damage caused by non-penatrating munitions. as one more foot note to attacking ships, it is important to remember that many ships although armored still retained the wooden style deck to reduce on weight and preserve resources (IE aircraft carriers).
now the assumption must be that if you are bombing infantry and light to medium armored surface vehicles then the rule would be you will kill and destroy more targets with a ground/surface level detonation bomb (non penetrating/armor piercing) than you will with a bomb that doesn't detonate until after it has penetrated many feet of earth. if you are targeting the tiger in a field of infantry then you send in planes carrying bombs that will defeat the armor of the tank before detonating and you target those units against which your load out will have the most effect.
now most of the bombing done in aces high is against buildings and light or medium armor, thus the bombs being dropped (as there is no separate load out per bomb type) are GP with a standard surface detonation tip.
i really don't have the vocabulary specific knowledge to describe this in any further detail. i will leave it at this, if all bombs penetrated heavy armor why would they have the need to create bombs that would specifically pierce armor? if there wasn't a real need for it they would not have wasted the resources in mass producing it.
as a side note to all of this have you seen this sight yet? http://www.wwiivehicles.com/default.asp (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/default.asp) its got tons of specific vehicle and weapons information. it is sparse on story detail but awesome in its descriptions of the vehicles specification themselves. as the pages reference the historical documentation used to derive its information from i feel fairly assured upon relying upon the information found within.
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As the chart is on the 303rd BG web site I would say it is military.
http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs.html
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/AN-M65_cutaway_%28ORDATA%29.jpg)
As can be seen there is no changeable nose piece on the AN-M65 GP bomb. The SAP was the AN-M59 and the AP was the AN-Mk33.
In the late 30's, US bombs larger than 100lbs were required to penetrate a 1 foot layer of concrete which was placed on top of 2 feet of gravel. This was a strength test of the bomb casing to ensure that the bomb could penetrate the concrete without breaking up or deforming excessively.
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as i have been guilty of this level of arrogance on an occassion or two i will completely agree without dispute :salute
unless that is you just feel like being argumentative....... :neener:
:D It was not aimed at anyone, I was just curious who would respond to it.
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As the chart is on the 303rd BG web site I would say it is military.
http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs.html
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/AN-M65_cutaway_%28ORDATA%29.jpg)
As can be seen there is no changeable nose piece on the AN-M65 GP bomb. The SAP was the AN-M59 and the AP was the AN-Mk33.
In the late 30's, US bombs larger than 100lbs were required to penetrate a 1 foot layer of concrete which was placed on top of 2 feet of gravel. This was a strength test of the bomb casing to ensure that the bomb could penetrate the concrete without breaking up or deforming excessively.
nice research :)
well then it must be assumed that different reports and charts are contradictory in their understanding of the aplication of specific types of munitions.
but keep in mind that cracking stone still is a much different animal than the cracking of steel.
so alas i feel we must agree to disagree on this issue, until that is someone with enough clout that no one can dispute them writes an absolute and conprehensive book on the many purposes of the bombs deployed and why they were used for specific purposes. then we shall all agree and live in peace and harmony, in the middle of a pretend war where we all hope to kill each other :rock
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you know. ive had 1000lbers, 500lbers,250s, and 100s all drop directly on my head in a tiger and ive done the same to enemy tigers. its not uncommon in the game for them not to kill the tigers even with the 1000s. i was able to drive a tiger through 3 1ks an A20s full ord loadout, kill 23 tanks, and start a long RTB run to the 5k marker when finally after 20k-25k lbs of ordinance was dropped on or around me i was killed by an enemy tiger. i wish i kept the darn video for it...
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Best way to Kill Tigers is with the 37s of the IL2. Drop down on them as verticle as you can, aim for the thin spots in the tanks top armor.
Here you see me aiming for the thin plates around the turret. Starting in the rear.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/Tank%20Hits/tiger-5b.jpg)
Then moving up.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/Tank%20Hits/tiger-4.jpg)
And I slowly move up to the frontal plates.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/Tank%20Hits/tiger-3d.jpg)
In all maybe 4 to 6 hits needed at point blank range, 200 to 300 away. Even these pics arent verticle enough for me but they are all I have.
Generally the Tiger is more protected against the 'near hits" of bombs that kill so many lesser tanks. I never bomb them tho so this is all from what Ive noticed.
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rich, that has nothing to do with the fact that tigers somehow get away without a scratch from all sizes of bombs in the game at the moment on occasions
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rich, that has nothing to do with the fact that tigers somehow get away without a scratch from all sizes of bombs in the game at the moment on occasions
Do you have film to show us of the hits with heavy bombs that dont take out Tigers?
My pictures ARE relevant because they show conclusively what 37mm cannon do. And if a puny airborne cannon can do that then why wouldn't a 1,000 lb bomb?
The thing is we are all spoiled by the 'blast radius" kills we get on tanks in Aces High. Ive done it, and watched it, many times what even small bombs could do to medium tanks when you hit close with them and no doubt the bombers are thinking they dropped right on the tank when in fact they didn't. Whether thru pilot error , or lag, they just didnt hit the Tiger.
The Tiger is a different animal. It was a heavy tank with tremendous front and side plate made from steel that was probably the best steel ever put on a tank in WW2. The trade off is top sections had to be thinner which is why they are at such risk from IL2s. But unless you drop a big bomb right on a Tiger you probably aren't going to get the blast kill you would get with a lesser tank. Again unless you have film then thats the only explanation I can come up with based on what Ive seen in game.
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The thing is we are all spoiled by the 'blast radius" kills we get on tanks in Aces High. Ive done it, and watched it, many times what even small bombs could do to medium tanks when you hit close with them and no doubt the bombers are thinking they dropped right on the tank when in fact they didn't. Whether thru pilot error , or lag, they just didnt hit the Tiger.
Just as in shooting, for the bomb dropping pilot, lag plays no role. The bomb lands inb relation to the enemy Tiger wherever he does see it land.
Lag can only have an influence on the Tiger driver's perception of where the bomb did land.
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i sent in a film once showing the bomb landing right next to a tiger. Skuzzy told me i missed by 2 feet......... We all have to remember one thing, its a GAME not real life as much as we would like it to be.
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i sent in a film once showing the bomb landing right next to a tiger. Skuzzy told me i missed by 2 feet......... We all have to remember one thing, its a GAME not real life as much as we would like it to be.
time for another wishlist thread for the heavy bomb blast throwing tanks again! :aok
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now that would be cool....
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There is a fellow in MW when he ups a TIGER no one can kill the damned thing. One evening he ended up stranded at a field we just captured and recieved a dozen hits with 500 pnders, near misses with several 1000 pnders (2 FEET). half a dozen T34s right next to him delivering 25-30 AP rounds pointblank and all he gets is tracked. Goes on to kill all the T34s, all the ack, the ammo, then exits out with a laugh lol.
Most other people would have popped like a putrid corpse on a hot day with all that metal coming down. But this invincibility is pretty standard stuff with one individual. Anyway, its just a game so we plug on down the line <S>
I have had a view that the armor game in AH was nowhere near the fidelity of the A2A game anyway, so it merely serves to amuse me. Others understandably do get upset.
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Well if there is any other dynamic at work I'd like to see it. Any Tiger like that I see would get reported.
Then again Ive been gone so long maybe there have been some changes. I havnt dropped on a Tiger yet, "havnt seen one". Interesting thread. :salute
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I have had this happen to me in the past were my Tiger was on a slope & a bomb fell near by & I ended up in the crater & partially underground & I just flat could not be killed. Granted I could not move either. I think it is a glitch that happens from time to time. Seen it happen with others & it has happened to me.
i was going to say i remember this a few years ago. it was probably you that we were laughing at, well actually at the idiots that kept dropping bombs on you.
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There is a fellow in MW when he ups a TIGER no one can kill the damned thing. One evening he ended up stranded at a field we just captured and recieved a dozen hits with 500 pnders, near misses with several 1000 pnders (2 FEET). half a dozen T34s right next to him delivering 25-30 AP rounds pointblank and all he gets is tracked. Goes on to kill all the T34s, all the ack, the ammo, then exits out with a laugh lol.
Most other people would have popped like a putrid corpse on a hot day with all that metal coming down. But this invincibility is pretty standard stuff with one individual. Anyway, its just a game so we plug on down the line <S>
I have had a view that the armor game in AH was nowhere near the fidelity of the A2A game anyway, so it merely serves to amuse me. Others understandably do get upset.
Sounds like the old Tiger from AH1
Some days I will up a Tiger & get killed just from the rushing air from a passing egg. Other days it seems I get lucky & get a Tiger that is near impossible to kill.
It is just one of those things that happen & cannot always be explained.
I was in a panzer not so long ago & an egg fell nearby & actually flipped me onto my roof. In 10 years of playing I have never seen or heard of that before.
But like the post above if I run into the few individuals who are almost impossible to kill I will just go somewhere else as I cannot be bothered with the bs.
Perhaps HTC has put in a random tiger sequence where you get 1 really good tiger for every 10 or so you up.
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I gave up trying to kill tigers in a gv. Now I just track them with some HE and let the planes deal with it while keeping the Tiger from getting resupplied.
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I gave up trying to kill tigers in a gv. Now I just track them with some HE and let the planes deal with it while keeping the Tiger from getting resupplied.
flank it? tigers are not invincible. all you need to do is get to cover and slowly flank it until youre on its six. from there you shoot a round in its butt and he goes boom
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I gave up trying to kill tigers in a gv. Now I just track them with some HE and let the planes deal with it while keeping the Tiger from getting resupplied.
In AH GV's kill much more Tigers than planes. Last tour, 439 planes were credited with a Tiger kill. But 1261 Tigers were killed by other vehicles, the most successful being the M4A3(76)w (374 kills).
Get close and/or flank him. Don't engage him frontal at long ranges. Don't just sit there and slug it out, MOVE! Tiger has a slow turret and is particularly bad at tracking multiple close enemies. At closer ranges, the M4(76) is a particular nasty opponent for the Tiger due to the higher rate of fire.
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In AH GV's kill much more Tigers than planes. Last tour, 439 planes were credited with a Tiger kill. But 1261 Tigers were killed by other vehicles, the most successful being the M4A3(76)w (374 kills).
Get close and/or flank him. Don't engage him frontal at long ranges. Don't just sit there and slug it out, MOVE! Tiger has a slow turret and is particularly bad at tracking multiple close enemies. At closer ranges, the M4(76) is a particular nasty opponent for the Tiger due to the higher rate of fire.
proud to say that in my tiger runs of the last 5 tours only 2 deaths were by tank for me :P (approx 10-15 deaths)
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In AH GV's kill much more Tigers than planes. Last tour, 439 planes were credited with a Tiger kill. But 1261 Tigers were killed by other vehicles, the most successful being the M4A3(76)w (374 kills).
Get close and/or flank him. Don't engage him frontal at long ranges. Don't just sit there and slug it out, MOVE! Tiger has a slow turret and is particularly bad at tracking multiple close enemies. At closer ranges, the M4(76) is a particular nasty opponent for the Tiger due to the higher rate of fire.
snail.. that surprises me that the m4/76 is now the main tiger killer.. does anyone even bother with the firefly anymore? have you compared usage before/after the new m4's came out?
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snail.. that surprises me that the m4/76 is now the main tiger killer.. does anyone even bother with the firefly anymore? have you compared usage before/after the new m4's came out?
To me it's hardly surprising. The M4(76) is the best overall tank platform we currently have, which is mainly due to having a superior rate of fire compared to other tanks. Few players are one-shot killers at typical. AH engagement ranges, so the M4(76) has a big advantage vs the old "standard" tank, the Panzer IV (And of course against all other tanks, too). And because it's the most numerous tank, it's also the main Tiger killer.
Overall tank usage in current tour:
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8905/currenttankusage.jpg)
The decline of Firefly usage has (in my opinion) two main reasons: First the attractiveness of the 1-perk M4(76), but mainly the correction of a armor calculation error at certain angles, which made the Tiger very susceptible to turret hits. Now that several armor glitches have been corrected, the Tiger has won some appeal again. Note that the Tiger overall K/D went up significantly.
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4130/currenttigerkade.jpg)
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I doubt there was one "poorly made" Tiger in the war. If anything the thing was overengineered and even when resources were getting thinned the very best nickle/steel plate was reserved for it. If anything was chisled it was the panthers, whose steel couldnt compare. And there was a lot of it on the Tiger protecting the crew from blast. Anywheres from 120mm to 80mm, which is why I try and poke holes thru the 25mm sections on top.
So when I hear about Tiger toughness from bombs I think more good modeling then anything else. Its not all that easy to drop a bomb right on top of a tank and near misses that kill other tanks shouldnt automatically kill a Tiger.
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I doubt there was one "poorly made" Tiger in the war. If anything the thing was overengineered and even when resources were getting thinned the very best nickle/steel plate was reserved for it. If anything was chisled it was the panthers, whose steel couldnt compare. And there was a lot of it on the Tiger protecting the crew from blast. Anywheres from 120mm to 80mm, which is why I try and poke holes thru the 25mm sections on top.
So when I hear about Tiger toughness from bombs I think more good modeling then anything else. Its not all that easy to drop a bomb right on top of a tank and near misses that kill other tanks shouldnt automatically kill a Tiger.
read up on what happened during the war. the tiger wasnt over-engineered. and the panther was. the panther's overlapping track wheels and new transmission were both extremely fragile. the tiger actually could easily have been poorly made. Later tigers broke down alot due to hastening their construction and sabotage due to forced labor...
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read up on what happened during the war. the tiger wasnt over-engineered. and the panther was. the panther's overlapping track wheels and new transmission were both extremely fragile. the tiger actually could easily have been poorly made. Later tigers broke down alot due to hastening their construction and sabotage due to forced labor...
I love it. Tell somebody they are wrong, tell them to "read up", and then back up a silly opinion with nothing.
I actually typed up a long post with supporting material linked and then figured why bother? Nobody was talking about the Panther and as for the rest of your post? Read up!
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"I actually typed up a long post with supporting material linked and then figured why bother? Nobody was talking about the Panther..."
not picking a side here guys,
Rich i have done the same thing!! written an entire brick wall of uncontestable and fully linked and supported text, then upon review decided that nobdy would bother to read it and erased it.
always wind up kicking myself in the arse over it right after the next guy makes a post that is completely contradictory and without any foundation!!!
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not picking a side here guys,
Rich i have done the same thing!! written an entire brick wall of uncontestable and fully linked and supported text, then upon review decided that nobdy would bother to read it and erased it.
always wind up kicking myself in the arse over it right after the next guy makes a post that is completely contradictory and without any foundation!!!
Well theres that, plus the fact one feels silly taking 20 mins out of your day to back up a position your taking with a 14yo.
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Well theres that, plus the fact one feels silly taking 20 mins out of your day to back up a position your taking with a 14yo.
i wish i could remember the thread or the name of the kid but there was a conversation a year or so back about a particular bomber and the smartest guy in the group with all the research was actually 14 or 16. he made us all look dumb! our final answer to him as a group was that he seriously needed to go find a girlfriend!!! :)
how ya been Rich? all golden on the home front?
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i wish i could remember the thread or the name of the kid but there was a conversation a year or so back about a particular bomber and the smartest guy in the group with all the research was actually 14 or 16. he made us all look dumb! our final answer to him as a group was that he seriously needed to go find a girlfriend!!! :)
how ya been Rich? all golden on the home front?
Good to seeya Floats. Alls good and you?
Regarding Tigers, and I already mentioned how I easily pop thru them with an IL2 from the top, here is the way their armor is laid out. The Red is 80mm or thicker, and there is very little 80mm on Tigers, the red being mostly 100mm , the yellow is 50 to 80mm, the grey is 26mm to 50mm, and the blue is 25mm or less. (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/tiger1-2.jpg) You see how the Tiger is situated to withstand bomb blasts anywheres near and how its fairly easy to poke thru the weak top sections with a plane cannon. Conversely you drop a bomb right on top of a Tiger and its dead. This thread isn't about the IL2 but that 37mm cannon on its rated for 50mm from 200 meters shooting point blank with no angle.
Tigers had problems with their advance drive and power systems but they were also legendary for allowing their crews to at least survive and fight again. I think the really amazing thing about them was the quality of the steel the Germans managed to keep production going so late into the war for. With all the stress on their Industry, and all the competition for good steel throughout their economy, they kept fabulous steel plate production going for their Tigers. In comparison the plate for the Panthers was of far lesser quality. An amazing machine, and amazing design. An amazing tank.
Even today when a Tiger is spotted in a computer game many players will drop what they are doing to go hunt it. So great is the aura still. I'm going to include drawings of our other tanks and their armor thickness and locations. Its not exact but a good aid, even if its mostly for guys like me who hunt them in the air. Heres the most survivable tank we have the T-34/85 (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/t3485m44.jpg) - (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/t3476m43.jpg) - (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/pz4f2.jpg) - (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/firefly.jpg)
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Last nite i watched an A20 drop 4 500lbers right on top of a Tiger, not once but twice, and the Tiger just sat there. Surely that can't be right. The same amount of ords would have sunk a cruiser twice over. I would think that in the real world just 1 500lber could kill a Tiger tank. All I can say is thank God we don't have the King Tiger as it would take a formation of B17s to kill one.
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Yesterday I saw a group of Lanc-stuka B-17s drop lots of 500lb's on a T-34/5. Or did I? After the smoke cleared I saw the bomb crater's next to the tank, even tho I saw the smoke engulf the tank. So far Tigers have been killed 1696 times in the MA this tour. While other tanks and/or guns/IL2s killed most of them 449 have been killed by bomb laden Jabos. So clearly somebody is dropping bombs on them. 30 by A-20s, 24 by DHogs, 3 by Hell kits, 11 by JU-s, 21 by Lancs, 17 by P-38Ls, 39 by Jugs....ect.
Clearly some bombs are working and no doubt they are the ones actually dropped on the tank. And no disrespect but there are very few Jabo sticks who consistently are able to drop with that kind of precision. Tomcat is one of them and he's only killed one Tiger this tour, like me, and like me it was probably the only Tiger he's seen this tour. Which brings us to another dynamic at work. You just dont see Tigers much when Jabos and IL2s are around. Guys only upp them for tank on tank battles, and even then mostly on defense when they can tower them easily. So far this tour Tiger tanks have accounted for a combined 9340 k/Ds, where'as the T-34/85 has accounted for 24,092, the P-4 27,533, Sherm/76 65,973. You get the picture. Another dynamic at work is once a Tiger is spotted and called out its like feeding time at the Lion cage. Guys hurry, fly thru each other, stab their sisters in the back just to steal the Tiger from her. Excited bombers make mistakes and inflate their accuracy tales. Boy just hearing and reading the comms, some of these guys are never responsible for anything. Its always a game bug or someone else's fault for everything.
So I'll be happy to change my opinion once film is shown. Until then however I maintain this is the toughest tank in our world, one made from remarkable steel alloy plate. And if you want to kill it with bombs then you'd better be spot on.
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I always look forward to reading Lusche's posts. He put time and effort in them and he is always correct because he looks things up. Thank you for your time and hard work in the research you do.
I to find I almost never use any other tank except the new M4/76 Sherman. The rate of fire and the fast turret is its strong point. The gun will kill any other tank with ease. However if I am faced with fighter bombers the Tiger is still the most bomb resistant tank in the game. Just put out a pile of supplies first.
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I love it. Tell somebody they are wrong, tell them to "read up", and then back up a silly opinion with nothing.
I actually typed up a long post with supporting material linked and then figured why bother? Nobody was talking about the Panther and as for the rest of your post? Read up!
rich chill out man. i wasnt flaming you. im one of few people on these boards that do not flame unless flamed. ive been through this conversation before and also in a few threads about the tiger AND the panther. just because i dont back it up doesnt mean i havent before or have had other people correct me. But i am 100% accurate with this statement and all i said was to go google a few good sources about the tiger's history and the panther's transmission and it will tell you what i just stated. so stop freaking because i didnt show you where the info is. you can find it yourself, i barely have the time to during the week to even be on the BBS let alone look for sources...
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Great thread~ can u make a pretty diagram for osties, wirbs and M3s? They are all ridiculously hard to kill sometimes. Hails of 50's don't seem to phase them much! :old: