Author Topic: indestructible Tiger  (Read 4178 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 08:24:06 AM »
And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?

Some are just plain old fashion slow between the ears. :D

Offline E25280

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 10:36:13 AM »
And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 12:31:24 PM »
You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.

well if it hadn't traveled far enough to arm and its kinetic energy isn't coded into the game, then how would an unexplodable feather possibly kill the tiger?

the only reasonable conclusion that may be drawn from Milo's statement is that he is inferring that it would be the transfer of the kinetic energy of the bomb, slamming into the armor of the tiger, causing the bomb to penetrate into the passenger/engine compartment of the tank and thus destroying/disabling the tiger without ever exploding the bomb.

this in essence is how most modern AP rounds work, (uranium depleted fletchet (?) rounds) they have no explosive head but instead use speed and kinetic energy to moltonized and vaporize the metal involved (armor and projectile) to superheat the internal compartment of the tank (passenger or engine) and thereby disable or detonate the tank or just kill the occupants.

the problems within this line of thought is that the falling bomb is made of inferior metals, does not have the proper tip nor does it generate enough speed/kinetic energy to defeat the armor plating of the tiger, or most tanks for that matter.

Tec is correct in his scepticism of Milo's theory. the AP rounds of the time used a directional shaped charge in the tip of the AP round to attack a very tiny section (4 to 6 inches in diameter) to moltonize the metal and create the vaporization of the tanks armor, and thus defeat the armor, not an area explosion which allows the entire face of the tank armor to absorb and displace the brunt of the energy.

i know and understand that my skill with technical terms is weak, but i hope that i made myself clear enough for you to understand my point Milo. although i understand what you are saying and that it seems like it would be just plain common sense, something so heavy falling so fast should punch a hole into the top of the tank. unfortunately in the real world it doesn't work the way you think it should. it has alot to do with the specific types of metals used in the making of the bomb and the armor and the way the were crafted.

bombs in general didn't need to be made of anything more than pig iron. that gave them the the strength and ability to break through concrete and brick and allowed for massive fragmentation upon explosion. armor on the other hand is made of at least extremely hardened steel. the pigs iron doesn't have the strength to pierce the steel because it breaks apart and colapses first, thus the kenetic energy of the bomb is actually absorbed by the bomb itself and never reaches the internals of the tank. thus the bomb bounces off without drastically effecting the armor of the tank.

hope this helps you to understand.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 05:10:13 PM »
So 25mm of steel is enough to to destroy a pig iron bomb. I suggest you look at bombs dropped on ships.

Offline Tec

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 05:22:52 PM »
You assume that it is coded to have kinetic energy before arming.

I assume nothing, simply trying to clarify for the sake of others keeping up with the conversation.  Also, the word "should" does not in any way imply that it is actually coded to behave that way in game.
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Offline Tec

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 05:26:12 PM »
blah blah blah

TL:DR

My skepticism?  Again, let me just point out that I made no comments one way or the other, and was simply trying to get the point that Milo made across for the benefit of those who misunderstood.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 11:31:44 PM »
So 25mm of steel is enough to to destroy a pig iron bomb. I suggest you look at bombs dropped on ships.

actually the bombs used against shipping were different in thier construction than the bombs used against building and above ground targets.

why dont we do this, you can either look it up (start here, http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb.html go to the first listing for basics of dumb bombs and read the section on penetrating and armor piercing) or you can just sit here and talk about what you obviously dont know about and while your doing that ill forget all about it.

TL:DR

My skepticism?  Again, let me just point out that I made no comments one way or the other, and was simply trying to get the point that Milo made across for the benefit of those who misunderstood.

your comment appeared to have an undertone of scketisism, if i was incorrect then i appologise.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 11:40:15 PM by FLOTSOM »
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 12:15:12 AM »
Research is hard, it's easier to just argue something you don't know. And it's much much easier to argue something you don't know than admit you are wrong.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 12:25:13 AM »
Research is hard, it's easier to just argue something you don't know. And it's much much easier to argue something you don't know than admit you are wrong.

as i have been guilty of this level of arrogance on an occassion or two i will completely agree without dispute  :salute

unless that is you just feel like being argumentative....... :neener:
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Offline lyric1

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2010, 12:44:32 AM »
( the tank was actually sitting in the crater).
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I have had this happen to me in the past were my Tiger was on a slope & a bomb fell near by & I ended up in the crater & partially underground & I just flat could not be killed. Granted I could not move either. I think it is a glitch that happens from time to time. Seen it happen with others & it has happened to me.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2010, 05:54:45 AM »
Nice link to modern munitions.

Now read what it says are the targets for a WW2 American 1000lb GP bomb, especially the last target > medium cruisers :eek:. Not just the 1000lb GP but also the 250lb, 500lb and 2000lb GP bombs which all list ships as targets. :D



Now what were you saying? :rolleyes:

AN-M65, http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html

Cruiser decks were 25-50mm thick.

Offline LLogann

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2010, 07:44:21 AM »
Well that is completely wrong actually.  Just saying, completely, not even close to being true.  The weight and density of the case would not do more than dent the armor.

And you do realize that what he's saying is that even if the bomb doesn't travel far enough to arm it should kill the Tiger with kinetic energy alone.... right?
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2010, 01:39:53 PM »
Nice link to modern munitions.

Now read what it says are the targets for a WW2 American 1000lb GP bomb, especially the last target > medium cruisers :eek:. Not just the 1000lb GP but also the 250lb, 500lb and 2000lb GP bombs which all list ships as targets. :D

(Image removed from quote.)

Now what were you saying? :rolleyes:

AN-M65, http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html

Cruiser decks were 25-50mm thick.

cool chart, i wish it stated on the bottom where it was from. do you know if this was actually a military chart or is it a chart created by a researcher? not doubting its authenticity or accuracy, would just like to know how much weight it carries by pedigree if i ever chose to use it in future discussions.

what that chart fails to depict though is the tips used by the individual bombs. were they tipped with a hardened armor piercing nose? were they tipped with the propeller type surface detonating nose? etc etc.

if the tips were designed for penetration beneath the deck of the cruiser then they had to be of a penetrating or armor piercing design, if they were intended for surface detonation then the bomb would not penetrate the armor of the deck of the ship (or the top armor of the tiger). if the penetrating/armor piercing bomb does not hit a hardened target it will sink many feet into the earth before (if at all) detonating, losing most of its destructive capability to absorption into the earth. it shall leave a pretty hole, but it shall do little if any real damage.

in addition, the deck of the cruiser may have been armor plate, but the guns equipment and people above the deck were much softer targets and very susceptible to damage caused by non-penatrating munitions. as one more foot note to attacking ships, it is important to remember that many ships although armored still retained the wooden style deck to reduce on weight and preserve resources (IE aircraft carriers).

now the assumption must be that if you are bombing infantry and light to medium armored surface vehicles then the rule would be you will kill and destroy more targets with a ground/surface level detonation bomb (non penetrating/armor piercing) than you will with a bomb that doesn't detonate until after it has penetrated many feet of earth. if you are targeting the tiger in a field of infantry then you send in planes carrying bombs that will defeat the armor of the tank before detonating and you target those units against which your load out will have the most effect.

now most of the bombing done in aces high is against buildings and light or medium armor, thus the bombs being dropped (as there is no separate load out per bomb type) are GP with a standard surface detonation tip.

i really don't have the vocabulary specific knowledge to describe this in any further detail. i will leave it at this, if all bombs penetrated heavy armor why would they have the need to create bombs that would specifically pierce armor? if there wasn't a real need for it they would not have wasted the resources in mass producing it.

as a side note to all of this have you seen this sight yet? http://www.wwiivehicles.com/default.asp its got tons of specific vehicle and weapons information. it is sparse on story detail but awesome in its descriptions of the vehicles specification themselves. as the pages reference the historical documentation used to derive its information from i feel fairly assured upon relying upon the information found within.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »
As the chart is on the 303rd BG web site I would say it is military.
http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs.html



As can be seen there is no changeable nose piece on the AN-M65 GP bomb. The SAP was the AN-M59 and the AP was the AN-Mk33.

In the late 30's, US bombs larger than 100lbs were required to penetrate a 1 foot layer of concrete which was placed on top of 2 feet of gravel. This was a strength test of the bomb casing to ensure that the bomb could penetrate the concrete without breaking up or deforming excessively.

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: indestructible Tiger
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 03:38:40 PM »
as i have been guilty of this level of arrogance on an occassion or two i will completely agree without dispute  :salute

unless that is you just feel like being argumentative....... :neener:

 :D  It was not aimed at anyone, I was just curious who would respond to it.
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