Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: JHerne on September 23, 2010, 09:56:34 AM
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Its becoming more and more rare lately to find a fight that doesn't end up with one person ramming another. When all you need to do is get a new plane - there's no punishment for being an bellybutton and ace piloting someone simply because they're on the losing end of a fight.
Sure, head-on attacks happened, but it was a real-life, life-ending game of chicken with no respawns.
So...I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, but...
I'd like to see ppl who intentionally ram get grounded to the tower for a period of time - not much, maybe 30 seconds or a minute. What constitutes deliberate ramming? I'm not a programmer, but there's gotta be a way to determine if a collision course remains unchanged or deviated only slightly in a convergence. If we can figure out bullet trajectory and damage (and the results therein), then it should be feasible to figure out two bodies colliding and determining cause and effect.
And while we're at it - beating the dead horse - why is it that I get rammed by someone else, I get a shot down message, and he continues to fly?
I've pretty much given up flying fighters at this point - I GV and bomb and will sometimes fly tactical when the conditions permit. This has really ruined the game for me.
Now - before your egos and forum warriors start flaming away - I try to position myself so that head-ons don't happen. I've been known to initiate a head-on myself, but never for the deliberate purpose of ramming.
Does anyone else consider this a problem, and what else can be done about it? Perk 95% of all aircraft to discourage ram attacks and perhaps give some incentive to bring an aircraft home?
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you realise that it isnt always on purpose right? I have been in a fight where I lose track of my opponent and then 2 seconds later I fly right into him. Sorry but this whole post just seems like a :cry
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I guess when ya think about it if he rammed you intentionally he could just as easily have pulled the trigger n killed you anyway, since to ram intentionally would require that he faced his plane and guns directly at your aircraft or at least very close to it.
I think most rams are the result of accidents during a HO and HO's are legitimate attacks. HO's were part of WW2 combat and so they're part of AH.
The ram mechanics are toejame, I was afk once climbing from a base while taking a dump and I came back to find I had rammed somebody, luckily they died too and I was only damaged in a minor way.
Other times I have been frantically turning while being bnz and got rammed and killed while the bnz'r flew off. Not sure how a low slow turning plane rams a plane diving on it but well...
Avoiding a HO is pretty easy but it always opens you up to a deflection shot so its a gamble too. Still they're not a big issue for me really.
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you realise that it isnt always on purpose right? I have been in a fight where I lose track of my opponent and then 2 seconds later I fly right into him. Sorry but this whole post just seems like a :cry
+1
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See Rule #6
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nm. horse beaten to death to the 1000nth power.
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Its becoming more and more rare lately to find a fight that doesn't end up with one person ramming another. When all you need to do is get a new plane - there's no punishment for being an bellybutton and ace piloting someone simply because they're on the losing end of a fight.
Sure, head-on attacks happened, but it was a real-life, life-ending game of chicken with no respawns.
So...I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, but...
I'd like to see ppl who intentionally ram get grounded to the tower for a period of time - not much, maybe 30 seconds or a minute. What constitutes deliberate ramming? I'm not a programmer, but there's gotta be a way to determine if a collision course remains unchanged or deviated only slightly in a convergence. If we can figure out bullet trajectory and damage (and the results therein), then it should be feasible to figure out two bodies colliding and determining cause and effect.
And while we're at it - beating the dead horse - why is it that I get rammed by someone else, I get a shot down message, and he continues to fly?
I've pretty much given up flying fighters at this point - I GV and bomb and will sometimes fly tactical when the conditions permit. This has really ruined the game for me.
Now - before your egos and forum warriors start flaming away - I try to position myself so that head-ons don't happen. I've been known to initiate a head-on myself, but never for the deliberate purpose of ramming.
Does anyone else consider this a problem, and what else can be done about it? Perk 95% of all aircraft to discourage ram attacks and perhaps give some incentive to bring an aircraft home?
You know those who are notorious for HOing and ramming do not get a lot of respect by other ppl who want to fight by skills.
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Well if its a horse beaten to death, and by someone other than me, don't you think it merits consideration as a problem?
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No. I don't believe it has merit and HTC isn't going to change HO or rams
because once in a blue moon a minuscule percentage of the player base
whines about them.
"You know those who are notorious for HOing and ramming do not get a
lot of respect by other ppl who want to fight by skills. "
Hate to bust a bubble but whoopty_freeking doo. This is an online game.
Players who HO or RAM or shoot chutes or vulch could careless about what
you think is <cough> "respectable" in an online game.
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See Rule #6
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"?It becomes the status quo because we allow it to be the status quo."
Oh bs. Don't mix in game bugs and software limitations with player
behavior.
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Well if its a horse beaten to death, and by someone other than me, don't you think it merits consideration as a problem?
It would be a nightmare to code without penalizing everyone that collides. I can think of many instances where collisions occur out of nothing more than bad luck and sometimes it looks like an intentional ram. Then again, if I'm merging with someone and he opens fire in a HO, I'm going to try and ram.
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It's a game. Chill out and up a shiny new plane. Score and rank don't matter, so who cares? I know it's frustrating when you get a collision, but if you get that worked up about it I would think a short break is in order.
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See Rule #4
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I know Oak - I just can't figure out why everyone says its a dead subject and something we have to live with.
We all have things in this game that tick us off - trees that flip tanks, leaves that explode AP rounds, flying home and landing with one wing completely sheared off, spawn campers, etc. This wishlist is filled with people asking for stupid s**t, a few making legitimate requests, and everyone else flaming or voicing worthless opinions. It becomes the status quo because we allow it to be the status quo.
I'm not faulting the game or HTC, I'm faulting the mindset of many of the players. Ppl complain that A-20s ruin the GV experience, GVers complain the IL-2 ruins their experience, etc etc.
I know how you feel but you just have to over come the frustrations of some skill-less lame a-hole. If you are a relativity new player (0-2 years into playing) and trying to improve your skill, thank you. Keep at it and do not stoop down to their level.
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Its becoming more and more rare lately to find a fight that doesn't end up with one person ramming another. When all you need to do is get a new plane - there's no punishment for being an bellybutton and ace piloting someone simply because they're on the losing end of a fight.
Why didn’t you turn away to avoid the HO???
Sure, head-on attacks happened, but it was a real-life, life-ending game of chicken with no respawns.
It was actually part of the real Air Cadets training. My Dad flew P47’s andP51’s and his Army Air Core training instructed him to turn into the enemy, no matter what direction the enemy was traveling, close the distance and fire. Remember in real life they fought as winged pairs. Two P47’s head on to a 109, sixteen 50Cals firing.
So...I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, but...
Mnay, many, many, many, many times.
I'd like to see ppl who intentionally ram get grounded to the tower for a period of time - not much, maybe 30 seconds or a minute. What constitutes deliberate ramming? I'm not a programmer, but there's gotta be a way to determine if a collision course remains unchanged or deviated only slightly in a convergence. If we can figure out bullet trajectory and damage (and the results therein), then it should be feasible to figure out two bodies colliding and determining cause and effect.
I don’t think so, unless mind reading can be programmed. The problem is, and you said it yourself, “Intent” If you been involved in an HO and I’m guessing that you have, that you flew your aircraft in such a manor as to place it directly in line with another aircraft and an AH collision occurred, well, that was your own doing. Go sit in the tower.
And while we're at it - beating the dead horse - why is it that I get rammed by someone else, I get a shot down message, and he continues to fly?
That’s the AH Lotto system at work. Pick a number between 0 and 1. You lose, thanks for playing.
I've pretty much given up flying fighters at this point - I GV and bomb and will sometimes fly tactical when the conditions permit. This has really ruined the game for me.
That’s your choice and that’s to bad. Have you thought about joining a squad and winging up.
Now - before your egos and forum warriors start flaming away - I try to position myself so that head-ons don't happen. I've been known to initiate a head-on myself, but never for the deliberate purpose of ramming.
Does anyone else consider this a problem, and what else can be done about it? Perk 95% of all aircraft to discourage ram attacks and perhaps give some incentive to bring an aircraft home?
I consider the HO a legitimate air combat tactic and do not have a problem with an enemy placing his aircraft directly in front of my gun sight.
Ramming as a tactic was performed by both Japan and Germany as a combat strategy. It was also performed by American and British pilots as an act of heroism . Should it be banned from the game. Air Warrior didn’t allow collisions, that was their answer. You just flew through an enemy plane. I’d rather see a better collision model in AH, one that would inflect the right amount of damage onto all aircraft involved. I’d also like to see collisions between friendly aircraft modeled into the game and friendly fire damage as well.
It is a pain to be rammed? yes, have I seen it employed as a strategy? Yes, by some. Does it make me want to leave the game or limit my game play? No way. I suspect there is perhaps more then ramming involved with your dissatisfaction with the game.
Your welcome to come fly with our Squad on Saturday Evening, vox 113, Knights, LWA 7:00PM EST. 113th Lucky Strikes. Come fly with us , wing up, have some fun.
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See Rule #4
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I wasn't personal before Westy, but it is now.
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another way of looking at the ram/collide in AH:
Sometimes you have to break through the think crust (things that frustrate) to get to the juicy sweet tasting filling inside (things bring pleasure). Once you get the hang of the game you will find ramming/colliding will account for very few of your own deaths. Both are largely avoidable.
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I'm not faulting the game or HTC, I'm faulting the mindset of many of the players.
Then why do you wish HTC to change things that will affect everyone when it's just a few that you have issue with? Instead, you should wish for people to change.
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See Rules #4, #2
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Before it degrades much more, I'll put my .02 in. I'm not going to talk about avoiding the HO, or how it happens. I won't talk about how the collision model can suck sometimes, but it really is the best option we have.
I want to talk about a player's perception of game style. I've only been on for a little over two years but I've noticed a few common themes people come up with
- People are ramming more and more than they use to
- HOing is becoming an acceptable practice
- It ain't like it was "back in the day"
- "Said particular problem" will be the end of Aces High
I think people's perception of arena game style is largely derived from two things. 1) Their own style: whether they know it or not, they might be a pilot who is prone to HO, maybe they just haven't learned how to avoid it, or that their maneuvers are setting up for a HO, but it's much easier to blame the other guy. 2) A bad streak: We all have a couple days of bad luck, our shots won't land, we make silly mistakes. Well you get upset, and start picking out things you might not normally do. You make a mistake and get caught up in a HO, your brain then chooses to ignore all the other merges and only seems to remember all the HOs. You then get upset because everyone is HOing!
I think selective memory also plays a part in those that say the MA used to be soo much better. It's simple, you remember the good times, that's why so many people want to go back to high school, because they forget the S&^tty parts. I'm not saying it hasn't changed, but there is a reason someone can read a 10 year old thread and still find it relevant.
<S>
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Jayhawk nailed it
Come on over to the AVA... not saying it doesn't happen there but most of the regulars in there try to avoid both tactics.
And yes both subjects have been discussed at length approximately twice a month in various forums for as long as I've been here. You'll get a variety of responses including lag time, tactics, situational awareness, etc... The simple truth of the matter is it's not going to change in the foreseeable future. I don't mean this to sound condescending I just don't think it's worth getting worked up over anymore.
Good luck to you anyway :D
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See Rules #2, #4
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Westy that last remark was over the top and uncalled for.
Jherne you started it, so you get to apologize first.
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Strikes me there are two subjects here, the head on attack and how collisions are handled by the game.
The first mistake is to assume that the collision model is somehow unfair or incorrect when it is in fact the most fair way to assess the damage. This comes from making a few incorrect assumptions about how the game works on a fundamental level. What each player sees on their screen is actually slightly different due to net lag. The gist of the collision model is if you see a collision you take damage, but you also have to understand that just because you saw one on your FE (front end - monitor) DOES NOT mean that the other player saw one on his. To him the collision did not occur, now you're asking HTC to inflict damage on a player who in his eyes avoided the collision. If you consider this situation to the possible ways to model damage then it's easy to see that the current system is the most simple and the most fair. You see a collision, you take damage who's at "fault" doesn't enter into it at all.
There's a good write up with pictures on the trainers website.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm)
The head on attack always is a bit of a hot button topic, if you feel like you're getting killed by them please let me know and we can schedule some time in the TA. There are things you can do to minimize your chances of being hit and actually exploit the other players desire to HO to gain angles. If you recognize that they are maneuvering for the head on shot then you can take advantage of a predictable flight path and begin to position yourself accordingly, anytime you KNOW where they are going to be in the near future you can exploit that. Secondly for a player to rely on the head on attack as a primary tactic is ultimately self defeating. We all learn and improve by doing, by willfully engaging in a tactic that will end the fight for one or both of the participants before it really begins you rob yourself of repetitions that can slow the learning process.
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See Rules #2, #4
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Its becoming more and more rare lately to find a fight that doesn't end up with one person ramming another. When all you need to do is get a new plane - there's no punishment for being an bellybutton and ace piloting someone simply because they're on the losing end of a fight.
The big problem I see here is that you really don't understand how the collision model works. Don't try and claim you do because it is very evident that you do not.
So...I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, but...
Yep and it's been explained to death as well but for some reason people refuse to learn how the game mechanics work and post whine threads such as yours.
I'd like to see ppl who intentionally ram get grounded to the tower for a period of time - not much, maybe 30 seconds or a minute. What constitutes deliberate ramming? I'm not a programmer, but there's gotta be a way to determine if a collision course remains unchanged or deviated only slightly in a convergence. If we can figure out bullet trajectory and damage (and the results therein), then it should be feasible to figure out two bodies colliding and determining cause and effect.
It is very difficult to intentionally ram another player and cause the 2nd player to receive damage and highly unlikely the other person intentionally rammed you. More than likely the person was going for a head on shot (probably just like you were) and you both lost your little game of chicken and collided with each other.
And while we're at it - beating the dead horse - why is it that I get rammed by someone else, I get a shot down message, and he continues to fly?
This is where understanding how the collision model works would answer your question but I don't think you would really like the answer. If you received damage that is because your front end detected the collision with the other plane. If the other guy collided as well, you would see a message in your chat buffer stating that you collided with someone and the other player collided with you. Since the collision is detected by the front end (your computer) and not the host (AH servers) and doesn't always mean the other player's front end detected his collision with you. In fact, on his front end it may even show that he was no where close to colliding with you which is why his front end didn't detect the collision. Since your front end detected the collision and his didn't, you will be the the one that recorded the collision and take the damage. You can easily tell if his front end detected the collision by the system message you receive.
I've pretty much given up flying fighters at this point - I GV and bomb and will sometimes fly tactical when the conditions permit. This has really ruined the game for me.
Now - before your egos and forum warriors start flaming away - I try to position myself so that head-ons don't happen. I've been known to initiate a head-on myself, but never for the deliberate purpose of ramming.
I think it's time you changed your tactics or get with a trainer and have them teach you proper seperation techniques as well as merges. This will help you from colliding with other players.
Does anyone else consider this a problem, and what else can be done about it? Perk 95% of all aircraft to discourage ram attacks and perhaps give some incentive to bring an aircraft home?
Nope, I don't see it as a problem at all. Collisions happen and it's not the fault of the other guy because as I said it is very difficult to intentionally collide with another player to make them take damage. You need a whole crap load of luck and perfect (literally) split second timing to pull it off. Again, learning how the collision model works will address a lot of your misconceptions on how collisions work in the game.
Too bad Bronk doesn't post those screenshots showing how the collision model works, even an illiterate African Pygmy would would walk away with a complete understanding of how the collision model works.
ack-ack
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See Rules #2, #4
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See Rules #2, #4
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I will apologize to Westy. My expectations of people in general are set way too high. Expecting a civilized explanation, or even finding someone else who felt as strongly as about this as I did when I posted it, was probably idealistic.
However, let me clarify things, as this thread and several posters have made some assumptions...
I understand the collision model.
I understand that collisions happen.
I know about convergence and separation.
I might sound like a whining like a noob player, but I'm not. Several years here, several in AW, and CFS and IL-2 before that.
My gripe is about the player who's on fire, or getting bested in a dogfight, who resorts to deliberate ramming. Nothing more.
And yes, I probably should have just shut up in the first place.
If you were engaging a low e A-20 at low level in a high e P-51 (and had all the advantages), what possible reason would you have to deliberately ram said A-20, other than being accidental? Would an average pilot simply attempt to gain a 6 position using a wide array of BFM or ACM? If I'm on fire or seriously hurt, I'm looking for a way out - not who I can take with me in the process.
I stopped coming to these forums because the pretentious, condescending replies and responses that so many people post. Everyone was new once, and everyone has had their share of frustrations. Its too bad, whether this post is whining or made out of genuine frustration, that more people tend to verbally hogpile than offer explanations without tossing in sarcasm, contempt, and cynicism.
So...with that said, lets move on. I regret having ever made this post. But I've read and re-read those of your posts pertaining to the collision model, and those that offered sincere, sound advice. To those people, <S> and thank you.
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There is a high prevalance of squeaky responses on this board. As for the why would a plane on fire deliberately ram. I guess cause its on fire and hes about to die so figures he might as well take you out with him with a lucky ram roll of the dice :)