Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: JBJB710 on October 12, 2010, 02:40:18 PM
-
Do you think you can fix the B-25 Mitchells so they can take off from an aircraft carrier like in this picture below (as an example):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Army_B-25_%28Doolittle_Raid%29.jpg)
-
Why?
16 B-25s took off from Hornet in 1942. No carrier-launched B-25 raid was ever done again...
-
A 1 time suicide run basically trying to boost morale for the US.
B Severely stripped down and up fueled B25's with minor bomb loads.
C Did I mention no defensive guns?
D If you want to work at it hard enough, I suspect it can be done as is.
Easy, no, it won't be easy, those guys practiced for months!
-
EDIT:: Ok, so yes, original comment removed. Hasty comments often are bad. I am sorry.
Just please, please, PLEASE! Do a little research before you make a request! And if you dont know where to start, just drop a thread in the general discussion, and we would be more than happy to help you learn.
-
How old are you?
What is your IQ?
Do you just google WW2 aircraft images in your spare time?
Have you ever read a book?
Have you ever watched a documentary?
These a just a few of many questions you might want to consider about yourself before spammINg our forums.
Have a nice day.
Folks like you who flame just to flame are as bad as the OP.
How old are you?
What is your IQ?
What have you done to try and help make the game better?
If you don't have anything constructive to say, see yourself the bloody hell out of here.
-
Who died and made you hallway monitor? :D
-
How old are you?
What is your IQ?
Do you just google WW2 aircraft images in your spare time?
Have you ever read a book?
Have you ever watched a documentary?
These a just a few of many questions you might want to consider about yourself before spammINg our forums.
Have a nice day.
You don't have to be that mean. It is obvious he is new to the AH forum and maybe new playing it too.
JBJB710, This will most likely not happen because it was a one time event that took place. AH staff wants only AC that saw a lot of action and production was high. We are lucky to have the P-47-M (only 130 produced) and F4U-4 (i think over 200 or 400 produced) and Th-152H1 (only about 43 where enter into service) and Ar 234 (i believe less the 200 produced) do to its low production number and combat actions.
Other AC that we will mostly not see do to low production or limited action:
F7F Tigercat: Was put into service but never saw any action.
190D-11: A sexy bird that could have cause all sort of problems to the allies, but got out to late with only seven made.
190D-12,13: Another AC that could gave the allies all sort of problems. It is unclear how many where developed or if any did saw action. They where to be assigned to JG-26.
Gloster Meteor: British first turbo engine AC that did saw action, but vary little and only about less the 10 was put into service.
Bell P-59 Airacomet: U.S first turbo engine AC that only had 50 or 60 into service. It was going to make its first combat mission hours before Germany surrenders.
B-32 Dominator: Nice long range heavy bomber that only flew three missions, recon, and i believe it was created for the last IJ kill before japan surrenders.
There are a few more but hopefully you understand why the B-25 off the carrier will not happen on AH.
-
All I'm saying is this guy has requested everything to be requested over and over, and probably never taken a second to look the information up. A 5 minute search would have told him that we shouldnt have CV capable B-25's. But no, he sees a picture of a B-25 taking off from a carrier and immediately opens up a thread in the Wishlist. Harsh, maybe, but I have been patient with this guy in the past. Line has to be drawn somewhere.
-
well thats a good pic there but its the only time the b25 took off a carrier in WW2 .there is a way you can take a b25 off a cv. you have to take off from another base and land on the cv , when you land there will be space behind you left, to back up simply put a little pressure on throttle and you will slowly back up wait til tail end is hanging over edge, stop, deploy all flaps and stay to the left of cv so your wings dont clip the bridge and you will take off with no problem. btw you will rearm and refuel once your stopped at end of cv deck
-
Harsh, maybe, but I have been patient with this guy in the past. Line has to be drawn somewhere.
How exactly is this your problem?
JBJB710 if you want to take off from a CV in a B-25 you just have to land on it first. :D
-
How exactly is this your problem?
JBJB710 if you want to take off from a CV in a B-25 you just have to land on it first. :D
That can be done! Can you still land a B-24, 17 or lanc on them too?
-
EVERYBODY COUNT TO TEN...
Now you made me go down an interesting tangent here Ghosth. An interesting idea would be to add a "modified" version of the Mitchell, with relatively the same modeling as it was IRL. AND... A small perk so it does not become habit for some people, and give us a sorta sense of the suicide those boy's felt. And now the cv group that is deep in hostile waters would be able to add some heavies to a land assault. A perked, stripped B25C that, if upped, would probably have an important role to play in the coming attack here in the AH world. Add to the gameplay, dare I say?
A 1 time suicide run basically trying to boost morale for the US.
B Severely stripped down and up fueled B25's with minor bomb loads.
C Did I mention no defensive guns?
D If you want to work at it hard enough, I suspect it can be done as is.
Easy, no, it won't be easy, those guys practiced for months!
-
It was possible to take a B-25 off from a CV in Air Warrior if it was properly configured, although when I tried to run my Doolittle snapshot it didn't work out quite so well online and I ended up having to move the takeoff base to a land base about the same distance away from the target.
For those who don't think there is any reason at all for this. Not a big reason mind you, but still...
-
You don't actually have to land on it. You can go in offline and practice from there. I just did after getting repeatedly smoked by my own ack.
-
Pretty much any bomber can land on a CV and take off again, in fact planes like the B17, B24, and Lanc's are incredibly easy to land and relaunch because of their slow landing speeds and huge flaps. I actually landed and relaunched a B24 off of a CV with only 3 engines before.
Now about the wish, as said before only a handful of B25s ever took off from a CV and it was only once during the war as a special mission. The B25 is not a CV aircraft and as such will never be able as a normal CV plane during MA operations, now special events might be a different story.
-
Bell P-59 Airacomet: U.S first turbo engine AC that only had 50 or 60 into service. It was going to make its first combat mission hours before Germany surrenders.
Actually, the P-59 was never accepted for combat service. The performance didn't even match the capabilities of late-war prop birds of the time.
The P-80 was the closest I believe of any American jet design to see combat during the war, and she missed out by several MONTHS.
-
the b25 had only one gun in the nose in the doolittle raid
-
+1 so when we get at a strat we all up b25s +! :aok
-
the b25 had only one gun in the nose in the doolittle raid
Nate, your wrong, as usual.
The B25's during the Doolittle raid had the tailguns removed and replaced with broomsticks painted black. The top turret still had 2 .50 caliber guns in it.
-
Actually, the P-59 was never accepted for combat service. The performance didn't even match the capabilities of late-war prop birds of the time.
The P-80 was the closest I believe of any American jet design to see combat during the war, and she missed out by several MONTHS.
You are right on that. The P-59 never saw service but the P-80 i believe it was the AC that was going to see it first combat mission hours before Germany surrender.
-
You are right on that. The P-59 never saw service but the P-80 i believe it was the AC that was going to see it first combat mission hours before Germany surrender.
The YP-80 was still undergoing testing when the Bombs were dropped (Bong was killed testing one of them I think the day after Hiroshima). I don't think they were in service until after the Japanese surrender.
-
Bong was killed after the war, not sure about date but I think he was killed flying a corsair.
-
P-80s were undergoing operational testing in Italy at the end of the war.
Dick Bong was killed flying a P-80.
-
The YP-80 was still undergoing testing when the Bombs were dropped (Bong was killed testing one of them I think the day after Hiroshima). I don't think they were in service until after the Japanese surrender.
P-80s were undergoing operational testing in Italy at the end of the war.
Dick Bong was killed flying a P-80.
I know I read something about the P-80 was going on its first combat mission hours before Germany surrender. JHerne thank for refreshing something eals, that mission was to take off in Italy. I will try to find that reading to re insure about the P-80.
-
A pair of P-80s were attached to the 1st FG in Italy very late, but never got anywhere near combat.
-
Found it, "U.S. rushed four P-80s to Europe- two each to England and Italy- and they were hours from entering combat when World War II ended." Reading from "Aircraft of World War II" by Jim Winchester
-
So, has this JBJB person ever posted a response in any of the threads he starts?
-
Found it, "U.S. rushed four P-80s to Europe- two each to England and Italy- and they were hours from entering combat when World War II ended." Reading from "Aircraft of World War II" by Jim Winchester
Seems to be wishful thinking on the part of the author. From the 1st Fighter Group History. These guys had the two P80s in Italy. "the P-80s were brought over in early April 1945 by a Wright Field contingent 'for testing under combat conditions in a remote location'. The Remote location was correct but combat conditions? Surely not. To be sure they were in an Operational area,but aside from occasional flights in the local area, not a great deal was accomplished."
Sure doesn't sound like they were hours from entering combat based on the guys who had them :)
-
Seems to be wishful thinking on the part of the author. From the 1st Fighter Group History. These guys had the two P80s in Italy. "the P-80s were brought over in early April 1945 by a Wright Field contingent 'for testing under combat conditions in a remote location'. The Remote location was correct but combat conditions? Surely not. To be sure they were in an Operational area,but aside from occasional flights in the local area, not a great deal was accomplished."
Sure doesn't sound like they were hours from entering combat based on the guys who had them :)
Ok, where are you getting your info?
-
Ok, where are you getting your info?
From the 1st Fighter Group History.
Sounds like from the guys who actually HAD the two P-80s in Italy.
-
Well, regardless, they were there, in-country.
I put P-80s in the same category as the F7F and F8F.
They were there, they were flying beyond the test-flight phase, they just didn't make it in time.
Had the war lasted another month, all three of these aircraft might have seen combat, although by that time there wasn't much left to shoot at.
J
-
Actually you can go offline, and enable the b25 from a carrier.
Then unload your B25c as much as you can, and practice taking off. I'd recomend learning to back up on the deck to give you as much room as possible.
Yes Logan, I would not mind seeing a "stripped down, limited ord" variant of the B25c. Very lightly perked, and enabled on carriers. It would I suspect see a fair amount of use in special events. Preferably with no guns, extra fuel tanks, and 3 or 4x 500 lb bombs as the only ord loadouts.
-
In addition to what Ghosth said, you can also set winds offline and run the CV into a nice headwind for takeoff and landing.
-
Bong was killed after the war, not sure about date but I think he was killed flying a corsair.
Richard Bong died on 8/6/1945 while testing flying the P-80.
ack-ack
-
Richard Bong died on 8/6/1945 while testing flying the P-80.
ack-ack
Found this comment in my Earl Miller stuff regarding Bong's loss. Earl flew P80s as well.
"Yes, Bong believed the Fire Warning Light when it came on and tried to abort takeoff. I, and others I flew with, ignored the light because it came on so often during takeoff in the older P-80s. If he would have waited a minute, the light would have gone off, I'm sure."
-
Folks like you who flame just to flame are as bad as the OP.
How old are you?
What is your IQ?
What have you done to try and help make the game better?
If you don't have anything constructive to say, see yourself the bloody hell out of here.
:furious :neener:
All I'm saying is this guy has requested everything to be requested over and over, and probably never taken a second to look the information up. A 5 minute search would have told him that we shouldnt have CV capable B-25's. But no, he sees a picture of a B-25 taking off from a carrier and immediately opens up a thread in the Wishlist. Harsh, maybe, but I have been patient with this guy in the past. Line has to be drawn somewhere.
I Study World War II, that includes the Doolittle Raid.
-
I Study World War II, that includes the Doolittle Raid.
P.S. I even see the movie "Pearl Harbor (2001)" (which has the Doolittle Raid in it).
well thats a good pic there but its the only time the b25 took off a carrier in WW2 .there is a way you can take a b25 off a cv. you have to take off from another base and land on the cv , when you land there will be space behind you left, to back up simply put a little pressure on throttle and you will slowly back up wait til tail end is hanging over edge, stop, deploy all flaps and stay to the left of cv so your wings dont clip the bridge and you will take off with no problem. btw you will rearm and refuel once your stopped at end of cv deck
:x Show Me :airplane:.
-
So that makes you an expert on history...
Wow...and to think of all the money I wasted going to a real college...
We bow to your intellect. :rock
-
...
-
..
-
..
-
Wow, so that makes you a military historian, or a student of military history at the least... :salute
I wish I had known that BEFORE I spent all that money on a real college.
Anyone want a B.A. in History to hang on their wall? I'll even toss in the frame.
What the heck would I want that for when all I have to do is watch Pearl Harbor 2001? You know the one with the Doolittle raid in it... :D
-
Damn internet craps out in the middle of the post and now I look like the 'tard.
:furious
-
Because everyone knows that the same 2 pilots that managed to take off in pearl harbor took off from ford island and then they flew in the doolittles raid.
You guys r rlly stoopid.
-
For Sale or Trade:
One B.A. in History from Norwich University.
Rights to all published works written pertaining to military history.
3000 volume library of military books.
10,000+ WWII era photos (original and copies)
Anything else contributing to this fruitless effort to acquire knowledge.
Will trade for:
Snickers Bar (1)
Mt. Dew (6 pack, bottles)
Photos of scantily-clad women like Kate Beckinsdale.
Or I'll trade it for a B-29 in AH with nukes and radar and rockets and unlimited ammo.
Someone please, if you see me on the sidewalk, run me over... :huh
-
My post was dripping with sarcasm.
JBJB isn't the first person who watched pearl harbor, then came to the boards to showcase his newfound knowledge.
-
For Sale or Trade:
One B.A. in History from Norwich University.
Rights to all published works written pertaining to military history.
3000 volume library of military books.
10,000+ WWII era photos (original and copies)
Anything else contributing to this fruitless effort to acquire knowledge.
Will trade for:
Snickers Bar (1)
Mt. Dew (6 pack, bottles)
Photos of scantily-clad women like Kate Beckinsdale.
Or I'll trade it for a B-29 in AH with nukes and radar and rockets and unlimited ammo.
Someone please, if you see me on the sidewalk, run me over... :huh
hmmmm ... interested if you could change the degree to structural engineering so I can start charging $350 an hour for my work instead of $35.. I'll even throw in two old monitors and several Dallas Cowboy jersies as kindling.
-
DEAL!!
Hope you don't mind the white-out on the paper!!!
J
-
actually that's perfect... it shows that if I see a flaw in something I correct it.. :lol
-
Folks like you who flame just to flame are as bad as the OP.
How old are you?
What is your IQ?
What have you done to try and help make the game better?
If you don't have anything constructive to say, see yourself the bloody hell out of here.
As if you have any authority here? lmfao
-
Seems to be wishful thinking on the part of the author. From the 1st Fighter Group History. These guys had the two P80s in Italy. "the P-80s were brought over in early April 1945 by a Wright Field contingent 'for testing under combat conditions in a remote location'. The Remote location was correct but combat conditions? Surely not. To be sure they were in an Operational area,but aside from occasional flights in the local area, not a great deal was accomplished."
Sure doesn't sound like they were hours from entering combat based on the guys who had them :)
Yea, show me the web site or where ever you got this info. The only thing that i can find on the 1st FG is that they did not fly the P-80 till 1946.
And i do not think this guy would make up this info and aloud it to be published.
-
DEAL!!
Hope you don't mind the white-out on the paper!!!
J
That's only fair since there's white-out on the monitors. :bolt:
-
Well, regardless, they were there, in-country.
I put P-80s in the same category as the F7F and F8F.
They were there, they were flying beyond the test-flight phase, they just didn't make it in time.
Had the war lasted another month, all three of these aircraft might have seen combat, although by that time there wasn't much left to shoot at.
J
Most certainly not. There were four YP-80s in the European theater, two in the UK and two in Italy, none of which got anywhere near combat. The F7F and F8F's were in squadron service, embarked and enroute for service in the invasion of Japan. The P-80 didn't come close to seeing service in WWII.
-
+111111 trillon for b25s off a cv
-
Why get all worked up about B25's off a CV? They get parked 5 miles from shore anyway...you really want to fly over a base/town at 120mph and 250' altitude?
Perhaps adjust the coad to only allow them to take off if the CV is at least 150 miles from the nearest shoreline.
-
Most certainly not. There were four YP-80s in the European theater, two in the UK and two in Italy, none of which got anywhere near combat. The F7F and F8F's were in squadron service, embarked and enroute for service in the invasion of Japan. The P-80 didn't come close to seeing service in WWII.
If you had read my post, you would have understood what I was trying to say. Since the P-80s were in Italy and the UK, then it is LOGICAL to presume (since I can't use the A-word that means to make an educated guess) that they were undergoing operational testing, which is the point I was trying to make. And HAD the war gone on for another few months, there was a distinct possibility that they could have seen combat. Who are we to know what those YP-80s could have run into in July of 1945 if things had been different? Chances are they would have been moved to front line base had they performed well in the rear-area operational testing. The US was in a big hurry to get a jet operational, especially since we were way behind the curve compared to the Meteor and 262. Since the war was winding down, there was certainly good reason to see what these aircraft could do under actual combat conditions.
Don't presume to know what the powers that be were thinking. Stating that the P-80 was nowhere close to seeing service contradicts the fact that the aircraft were there in the first place. If they were nowhere near ready, the effort to get them to the ETO would never have been made.
-
If you had read my post, you would have understood what I was trying to say. Since the P-80s were in Italy and the UK, then it is LOGICAL to prettythangume that they were undergoing operational testing, which is the point I was trying to make. And HAD the war gone on for another few months, there was a distinct possibility that they could have seen combat. Who are we to know what those YP-80s could have run into in July of 1945 if things had been different? Chances are they would have been moved to front line base had they performed well in the rear-area operational testing. The US was in a big hurry to get a jet operational, especially since we were way behind the curve compared to the Meteor and 262. Since the war was winding down, there was certainly good reason to see what these aircraft could do under actual combat conditions.
Don't presume to know what the powers that be were thinking. Stating that the P-80 was nowhere close to seeing service contradicts the fact that the aircraft were there in the first place. If they were nowhere near ready, the effort to get them to the ETO would never have been made.
It didn't see combat. It didn't share the sky with an enemy aircraft. It doesn't belong in the game. Simple as that.
-
It didn't see combat. It didn't share the sky with an enemy aircraft. It doesn't belong in the game. Simple as that.
He isn't saying that it should be in the game, he is saying that it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that is could have seen combat had the war ended 1 month later.
-
No one is saying that it deserves to be in AH - backread.
-
(http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=a&d=us&s=a&c=p&ti=1&ai=30752&l=dis&o=15527&sv=0a5c424c&ip=6389f1dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvgasm.com%2Fshows%2Fimages%2Fjerseyshore%2Fseason1%2F12.31.09%2Ffist%2520bump.jpg)
Internet fist bump
-
This guy absolutely reeks of shade. This has to be somebody just trolling. Ignore him in the future.
-
For Sale or Trade:
One B.A. in History from Norwich University.
Rights to all published works written pertaining to military history.
3000 volume library of military books.
10,000+ WWII era photos (original and copies)
Anything else contributing to this fruitless effort to acquire knowledge.
Will trade for:
Snickers Bar (1)
Mt. Dew (6 pack, bottles)
Photos of scantily-clad women like Kate Beckinsdale.
Or I'll trade it for a B-29 in AH with nukes and radar and rockets and unlimited ammo.
Someone please, if you see me on the sidewalk, run me over... :huh
I will swap a BA in fine arts for it. :lol
-
(http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=a&d=us&s=a&c=p&ti=1&ai=30752&l=dis&o=15527&sv=0a5c424c&ip=6389f1dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvgasm.com%2Fshows%2Fimages%2Fjerseyshore%2Fseason1%2F12.31.09%2Ffist%2520bump.jpg)
Internet fist bump
LOL, you couldn't have picked the worst duchbag pix.
-
I will swap a BA in fine arts for it. :lol
I dunno, one gets you $7.50 an hour, the other gets you $7.75!!
Guess I should have stuck with Developmental Pyschology. Would have been much more useful in this place, that's for sure.
J
-
Internet fist bump
Ya know dude, that's a bit too 'happy' for me.
Perhaps something along the lines of this...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gSKno1K1saU/S6vEd57-yDI/AAAAAAAAAB4/DzL9AgKe_MM/s1600/01-CHEERS.jpg)
-
LOL, you couldn't have picked the worst duchbag pix.
All the other pictures for "fist bump" were obama or bush
-
Yea, show me the web site or where ever you got this info. The only thing that i can find on the 1st FG is that they did not fly the P-80 till 1946.
And i do not think this guy would make up this info and aloud it to be published.
"An Escort of P-38s-The Firswt Fighter Group in World War II" by John D. Mullins. On top of writing the group history, Mullins also was a pilot in the group and at one point was head of the P38 Pilots Association. He was there.
As for info being published. His intent may have been good, but his info was bad.
If you've spent any time dealing with history stuff, it's all over the place. JHerne, appears to be another one of us poor souls who got the BA in History like myself. His library sounds about like mine too, and based on the comments about how much money it made him, we're clearly on the same page in that regard :)
I'll give you an example from my own experience researching the Spit XII. A well respected aviation author by the name of M.J. F. Bowyer published a book in which a section was dedicated to the XII. There was a photo in it that was identified as a specific Spit XII, of a pilot I was lucky enough to correspond with. I wanted a copy. I managed to track down the guy who provided the photo and he gave me the time and the place the photo was taken. I happen to have the logbook of a pilot who flew a Spit XII on the same day and dropped in to that field doing an orientation flight for the USAAF guys at the base. It was a ground crew guy who took the photo. In the book the photo is captioned absolutely wrong in time, place Serial number and ID letters.
The 1st FG history has two photos of the Shooting Stars in it. Neither had tip tanks which means their range would have been very short. The argument for the Meteor is stronger as at least they chased V-1s and were flying in the summer of 44, but they too were kept out of air combat
-
If you had read my post, you would have understood what I was trying to say. Since the P-80s were in Italy and the UK, then it is LOGICAL to presume (since I can't use the A-word that means to make an educated guess) that they were undergoing operational testing, which is the point I was trying to make. And HAD the war gone on for another few months, there was a distinct possibility that they could have seen combat. Who are we to know what those YP-80s could have run into in July of 1945 if things had been different? Chances are they would have been moved to front line base had they performed well in the rear-area operational testing. The US was in a big hurry to get a jet operational, especially since we were way behind the curve compared to the Meteor and 262. Since the war was winding down, there was certainly good reason to see what these aircraft could do under actual combat conditions.
Don't presume to know what the powers that be were thinking. Stating that the P-80 was nowhere close to seeing service contradicts the fact that the aircraft were there in the first place. If they were nowhere near ready, the effort to get them to the ETO would never have been made.
They were not undergoing operational testing. They were getting a bit of feed back from pilots who had seen combat but hadn't been pulled back to the states yet. There are very few examples of operational testing using a "YP" aircraft.
Since you are misrepresenting why the YP-80s were there it is easy to see how you can claim "If the war had lasted another month they would have seen combat.", which is a complete fabrication.
-
Dude, did you get your history degree from a Cracker Jack box??? And what are your sources for this belittling conclusive attitude? Does 10000 posts make you an instant expert?
"Let's send these new jet fighters to Italy!"
"Why, for testing?"
"Nah, the test pilots want good lasagna"
Why would the aircraft be ANYWHERE near a combat area if they weren't being tested or evaluated under combat conditions?
They could have achieved the same results with a lot less effort had they kept the aircraft in New Mexico, Nevada, Southern California, or ANY other place that had similar terrain and weather conditions as Italy.
-
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/jherne/p80_1.jpg)
Please reference paragraph 5.
The 1st Fighter Group in World War II, by John D. Mullins, the aircraft were "...brought over in early April by a Wright Field contingent, "for testing under combat conditions in a remote location" ' and were quickly dubbed the "33rd Air Force".
This taken from another discussion between the original poster and Mr. Mullins, the author of the book, states, "One of the 1st FG pilots, Major Ed LaClare, logged two flights on the YP-80A. Mr. James Bertoglio, then a photographer with the 94th FS, who provided most of the pictures (for the book), clearly remembers one mission being flown "up north", i.e. toward the front line.
Bertoglio also recalled the oddity of the aircraft being flown by both test and operational pilots, but being maintained exclusively by civilian personnel (Lockheed?).
In Bill Yenne's book Lockheed, reference is made to YP-80s "flying a few patrols but encountering no enemy aircraft."
Now we can look into secondary sources...so take these for what they're worth...
From the Jets45 website: In December 1944 Four YP80As were deployed to Europe to boost the morale of the USAAF combat crews, the four YP-80A's were sent to England for tests and demonstrations were two crashed the first in mid December killing it's pilot and another in November 1945. Two were sent to Italy in April 1945, where they actually took part in operational sorties.
From another discussion forum. Here, the original poster is a rather well-known aviation historian...Spurred by the appearance of the German jet and rocket fighters, the USAAF decided to show the bomber crews that had to deal, day in and day out, with the new menace that 'help was on the way' and that also 'the good guys' had not been sitting idle and were developing the new 'blowtorch technology'.
The code word "Extraversion" was assigned to the Project, on November 13, 1944, pursuant to verbal request by Col. George E. Price (head of the project), by The War Department, Headquarter of the Army Air Forces, Washington D.C.
I have a copy of the original letter, signed by R.C. Wilson, Colonel AC, Chief, Aircraft Projects Br., Materiel Division, AC/AS, Materiel & Services, where the aircraft are indicated as "...special XP-80A project for ETO and MTO."
The four aircraft, earmarked for this Project were actually all YP-80As.
S/N 44-83026, c/n 1005 (ETO)
S/N 44-83027, c/n 1006 (ETO)
S/N 44-83028, c/n 1007 (MTO)
S/N 44-83029, c/n 1008 (MTO)
There is stong evidence this project received the highest priority from 'the powers that be', so much so that, in some cases, the lack of spares/items had to be made good by cannibalization performed on some of the aircraft used in the development program.
The ETO aircraft were disassembled, boxed and shipped as deck cargo to Burtonwood, England, on Dec. 15, 1944, arriving in the U.K on December 30. It took a whole month, to reassemble and get the two aircraft ready, the extremely cold weather being appearently a major factor.
The two pilots, Col. Marcus Cooper and Major Fredric Austin Borsodi, of the Air Technical Service Command HQ, based at Wright Field, arrived sometimes in January 1945, and Col. Cooper took 44-86026 on the type's first flight outside the U.S.
Maj. Borsodi was at the controls of the same aircraft, on Jan.28, when a failure in tension of the tail-pipe flange caused part of the hot gasses to exhaust inside the after section of the fuselage,with varying degree of damage to the tail surfaces and rear empenage disintegration. Borsodi lost control of the aircraft which crashed on farmland, near Bold. Borsodi was killed.
44-83027 was loaned to The Rolls Royce Engine Company, for flight tests of their B.41 (Nene) engine and was destroyed in an accident on Nov. 14, 1945.
Although the MTO aircraft performed far better, at least from the operational point of view, much less is known as of their operational service. I have obtained a copy of the two Individual Aircraft History Cards and their contents can be best described as 'skimpy and vague'.
44-83028 is shown as departing the Con-U.S. on Dec. 26, 1944 for overseas destination code DUKO, MET (Italy, 12th A.F.). It is then listed as being back to the Con-U.S. (an Air Materiel Command in Buffalo, NY) on June 16, 1945
44-83029 is shown as departing the Con-U.S. for an unreported overseas destination on Dec. 26, 1944, returning from same on Jun. 16, 1945.
A well known photograph of the two aircraft formating Ner Mt. Vesuvius, near Naples, taken by what appears to be an Olive Drab painted F-6 Photo-Mustang, has appeared in several publications.
Some considerations: although the MTO aircraft were shipped 11 days after the ETO aircraft were, the far less inclement weather of Southern Italy makes it - my humble opinion only - not unlikely the MTO aircraft were first flown around the same time their ETO counterparts first flew.
Another rumor has it that they were shipped to the relatively safer MTO to intercept the Arado Ar.234, that were flying recon missions from Udine, in Northern Italy. However, considering there are no records of German jets operating from, or over Italy, before February 1945, this cannot be!
I want to take advantage of this forum to thank Mr. Dan Hagerdon of the Archives Reference team of the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum and Mr. David A. Giordano of the Modern Military Records, Textual Archives Services Division of the Natl. Archives & Records Adm., in College Park, MD, for providing me with the best information on the MTO Project Extraversion aircraft I've been, so far, able to obtain.
I hope I'll be able, someday, to write the full story of this fascinating a so little known piece of WW2 history.
Now, I personally know Dan Hagerdon, and at the time (1995-96) David Giordano actually provided me with documentation on a naval project I was working on - so these are real people, and it is obvious that the OP was doing real research.
I will yield the floor to listen to your cited sources that counter these claims.
-
Good source you got, Jherne. So, technically they did flew a few missions, not , in my statement, was about to fly its first combat mission hours before Germany surrender?
-
This operation was classified until recently, so the depth of accurate information is limited, at least until someone makes another trip to the archive to locate the Project log. Even then, who knows what we'll truly find.
I look at the references I have on-hand, read the first-hand accounts of people who were there, and make my judgements based on the information I have in front of me.
Its not always a perfect science, especially since 60 years ago people weren't documenting every single move a unit made for the sake of appeasing some cartoon aviators in the future.
So in short, I believe these aircraft were undergoing operational testing, I believe they flew combat missions. I acknowledge the fact that they never saw actual combat with the enemy - but how many missions were flown by P-51s and P-47s where they didn't encounter any enemy aircraft? The luck of the draw I suppose. But (as I mentioned in my previous post that drew so much ire), had the war gone on, there's a distinct possibility that they would have encountered a Luftwaffe aircraft. No chance it would have been a 262, close to no chance it would have been an Ar234, but most likely a 190 or 109 variant.
J
-
Not quite sure what you are so pissy about Jherne. What do you think we are arguing about? And who got mad at you about a post? My apologies if you felt like you were getting jumped on about this. It just isn't that big a deal.
No one is arguing that the P80s were where they were. We can argue about "Operational testing" til the cows come home. It's a bit like the argument that comes up on those North African Tiffies that were attached to an RAAF squadron for "Operational testing". We have no evidence they ever saw combat either. That what might have been with the P80s will remain that because the war didn't continue.
Speculation is exactly that. I became good friends with an RAF pilot who was a B of B vet and then later a Supermarine service test pilot. When he went back to ops in 1944 it was with 616 on Meteors. My speculation is that the P80s were doing what the Meteors did initially. The Meteors did a lot of pilot orientation, dissimilar training for the combat pilots vs jets. Possibly providing training to bomber gunners vs a potential jet threat etc.
With the V-1 threat those jets got pushed into service yet the Brits were very slow to use them in Europe, even with an obvious jet threat from the 262s and the RAF at least had them in squadron strength.
Bottom line is there is nothing beyond speculation to suggest the P80s got anywhere near combat.
More power to you if you research it to the point it can be proven otherwise.
-
Well, i think we all can agree that 4 P-80 where in Europe at the end of the War. The question about them (at least two) where push into combat stage will be one of them things that we may never know unless the individuals who where there know what happen. Guppy35, Jherne, I and other provide info of what they have gather and we educate other who do not know anything about the P-80.
-
Not quite sure what you are so pissy about Jherne. What do you think we are arguing about? And who got mad at you about a post? My apologies if you felt like you were getting jumped on about this. It just isn't that big a deal.
I apologize if you felt that was directed at you - it wasn't. My lasagna post was in reference to this, which is about as short-sighted as anyone can get, especially if there's not a single source to back it up, other than saying "Because I said so." :
They were not undergoing operational testing. They were getting a bit of feed back from pilots who had seen combat but hadn't been pulled back to the states yet. There are very few examples of operational testing using a "YP" aircraft.
Since you are misrepresenting why the YP-80s were there it is easy to see how you can claim "If the war had lasted another month they would have seen combat.", which is a complete fabrication.
-
So that makes you an expert on history...
Wow...and to think of all the money I wasted going to a real college...
We bow to your intellect. :rock
Hey you can learn alot from watching the
(http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/hires/mm/military_channel_discovery.png)
-
Wow...
Here's one for you...
(http://rlv.zcache.com/epic_fail_button-p145699870216644046t5sj_400.jpg)
-
Hey you can learn alot from watching the
(http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/hires/mm/military_channel_discovery.png)
hate to break it to you, but no you cant. the only series on that channel that is even somewhat informative about WW2 is "World at War".
just finish 5th grade, graduate high school, and apply for a history major in college. it works! :aok
-
hate to break it to you, but no you cant. the only series on that channel that is even somewhat informative about WW2 is "World at War".
just finish 5th grade, graduate high school, and apply for a history major in college. it works! :aok
That is a good series. I own the dvd set somewhere around here. The shows on the military channel, while fun to watch, and you can learn somethings from them, aren't necessarily the best. Take what you see there lightly and then research it yourself. Dont just go on what you see in a 30-60 minute show.
-
Hey you can learn alot from watching the
(http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/hires/mm/military_channel_discovery.png)
Yep, you can sure learn a lot from a Military Channel show that refers to the dive flaps on the P-38 as "dive brakes" and then proceed to explain how they operated like air brakes. Yep, you can sure learn a lot. Just like you can learn a lot from the History Channel like how the P-51D had 6x 50mm cannons.
ack-ack
-
Yep, you can sure learn a lot from a Military Channel show that refers to the dive flaps on the P-38 as "dive brakes" and then proceed to explain how they operated like air brakes. Yep, you can sure learn a lot. Just like you can learn a lot from the History Channel like how the P-51D had 6x 50mm cannons.
ack-ack
Can it even take off the ground with out tearing it wings off?
-
Sure!!! Ever see 'Falling Hare'? Bugs Bunny, 1943.
Air brakes, too!! :aok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQPRBOzQkHU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQPRBOzQkHU)
-
woohooo one of my all time faves TH JH
-
Wow...
Here's one for you...
(http://rlv.zcache.com/epic_fail_button-p145699870216644046t5sj_400.jpg)
:huh
-
ya with essex class the superstucture was in way older ones like hornet lexington enterprise didnt have that problem
-
:headscratch:
-
ya with essex class the superstucture was in way older ones like hornet lexington enterprise didnt have that problem
welcome to the AH forums, wishlist troller #44!!!!!!
:rolleyes:
-
I still can't figure out what the hell he was trying to say...
-
I still can't figure out what the hell he was trying to say...
Something about not eating too much cheese before bed.