Author Topic: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells  (Read 2991 times)

Offline BrownBaron

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2010, 10:34:23 PM »
This guy absolutely reeks of shade. This has to be somebody just trolling. Ignore him in the future.
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Offline phatzo

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2010, 10:34:41 PM »
For Sale or Trade:

One B.A. in History from Norwich University.
Rights to all published works written pertaining to military history.
3000 volume library of military books.
10,000+ WWII era photos (original and copies)
Anything else contributing to this fruitless effort to acquire knowledge.


Will trade for:

Snickers Bar (1)
Mt. Dew (6 pack, bottles)
Photos of scantily-clad women like Kate Beckinsdale.

Or I'll trade it for a B-29 in AH with nukes and radar and rockets and unlimited ammo.

Someone please, if you see me on the sidewalk, run me over...  :huh
I will swap a BA in fine arts for it. :lol
No thank you Turkish, I'm sweet enough.

Offline oakranger

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2010, 10:35:49 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Internet fist bump

LOL, you couldn't have picked the worst duchbag pix. 
Oaktree

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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2010, 10:37:41 PM »
I will swap a BA in fine arts for it. :lol

I dunno, one gets you $7.50 an hour, the other gets you $7.75!!

Guess I should have stuck with Developmental Pyschology. Would have been much more useful in this place, that's for sure.

J
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2010, 10:43:03 PM »

Internet fist bump

Ya know dude, that's a bit too 'happy' for me.

Perhaps something along the lines of this...

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Offline Tupac

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2010, 10:43:40 PM »
LOL, you couldn't have picked the worst duchbag pix. 

All the other pictures for "fist bump" were obama or bush
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2010, 10:53:31 PM »
Yea, show me the web site or where ever you got this info.  The only thing that i can find on the 1st FG is that they did not fly the P-80 till 1946.
And i do not think this guy would make up this info and aloud it to be published.  

"An Escort of P-38s-The Firswt Fighter Group in World War II"  by John D. Mullins.   On top of writing the group history, Mullins also was a pilot in the group and at one point was head of the P38 Pilots Association.   He was there.

As for info being published.  His intent may have been good, but his info was bad.

If you've spent any time dealing with history stuff, it's all over the place.  JHerne, appears to be another one of us poor souls who got the BA in History like myself.  His library sounds about like mine too, and based on the comments about how much money it made him, we're clearly on the same page in that regard :)

I'll give you an example from my own experience researching the Spit XII.  A well respected aviation author by the name of M.J. F. Bowyer published a book in which a section was dedicated to the XII.  There was a photo in it that was identified as a specific Spit XII, of a pilot I was lucky enough to correspond with.  I wanted a copy.  I managed to track down the guy who provided the photo and he gave me the time and the place the photo was taken.  I happen to have the logbook of a pilot who flew a Spit XII on the same day and dropped in to that field doing an orientation flight for the USAAF guys at the base.  It was a ground crew guy who took the photo.  In the book the photo is captioned absolutely wrong in time, place Serial number and ID letters.  

The 1st FG history has two photos of the Shooting Stars in it.  Neither had tip tanks which means their range would have been very short.  The argument for the Meteor is stronger as at least they chased V-1s and were flying in the summer of 44, but they too were kept out of air combat
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2010, 12:37:47 AM »
If you had read my post, you would have understood what I was trying to say. Since the P-80s were in Italy and the UK, then it is LOGICAL to presume (since I can't use the A-word that means to make an educated guess) that they were undergoing operational testing, which is the point I was trying to make. And HAD the war gone on for another few months, there was a distinct possibility that they could have seen combat. Who are we to know what those YP-80s could have run into in July of 1945 if things had been different? Chances are they would have been moved to front line base had they performed well in the rear-area operational testing. The US was in a big hurry to get a jet operational, especially since we were way behind the curve compared to the Meteor and 262. Since the war was winding down, there was certainly good reason to see what these aircraft could do under actual combat conditions.

Don't presume to know what the powers that be were thinking. Stating that the P-80 was nowhere close to seeing service contradicts the fact that the aircraft were there in the first place. If they were nowhere near ready, the effort to get them to the ETO would never have been made.


They were not undergoing operational testing.  They were getting a bit of feed back from pilots who had seen combat but hadn't been pulled back to the states yet.  There are very few examples of operational testing using a "YP" aircraft.

Since you are misrepresenting why the YP-80s were there it is easy to see how you can claim "If the war had lasted another month they would have seen combat.", which is a complete fabrication.
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2010, 08:20:14 AM »
Dude, did you get your history degree from a Cracker Jack box??? And what are your sources for this belittling conclusive attitude? Does 10000 posts make you an instant expert?

"Let's send these new jet fighters to Italy!"

"Why, for testing?"

"Nah, the test pilots want good lasagna"

Why would the aircraft be ANYWHERE near a combat area if they weren't being tested or evaluated under combat conditions?

They could have achieved the same results with a lot less effort had they kept the aircraft in New Mexico, Nevada, Southern California, or ANY other place that had similar terrain and weather conditions as Italy.
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2010, 09:14:55 AM »


Please reference paragraph 5.

The 1st Fighter Group in World War II, by John D. Mullins, the aircraft were "...brought over in early April by a Wright Field contingent, "for testing under combat conditions in a remote location" ' and were quickly dubbed the "33rd Air Force".

This taken from another discussion between the original poster and Mr. Mullins, the author of the book, states, "One of the 1st FG pilots, Major Ed LaClare, logged two flights on the YP-80A. Mr. James Bertoglio, then a photographer with the 94th FS, who provided most of the pictures (for the book), clearly remembers one mission being flown "up north", i.e. toward the front line.

Bertoglio also recalled the oddity of the aircraft being flown by both test and operational pilots, but being maintained exclusively by civilian personnel (Lockheed?).  

In Bill Yenne's book Lockheed, reference is made to YP-80s "flying a few patrols but encountering no enemy aircraft."

Now we can look into secondary sources...so take these for what they're worth...

From the Jets45 website: In December 1944 Four YP80As were deployed to Europe to boost the morale of the USAAF combat crews, the four YP-80A's were sent to England for tests and demonstrations were two crashed the first in mid December killing it's pilot and another in November 1945. Two were sent to Italy in April 1945, where they actually took part in operational sorties.

From another discussion forum. Here, the original poster is a rather well-known aviation historian...Spurred by the appearance of the German jet and rocket fighters, the USAAF decided to show the bomber crews that had to deal, day in and day out, with the new menace that 'help was on the way' and that also 'the good guys' had not been sitting idle and were developing the new 'blowtorch technology'.

The code word "Extraversion" was assigned to the Project, on November 13, 1944, pursuant to verbal request by Col. George E. Price (head of the project), by The War Department, Headquarter of the Army Air Forces, Washington D.C.
I have a copy of the original letter, signed by R.C. Wilson, Colonel AC, Chief, Aircraft Projects Br., Materiel Division, AC/AS, Materiel & Services, where the aircraft are indicated as "...special XP-80A project for ETO and MTO."

The four aircraft, earmarked for this Project were actually all YP-80As.

S/N 44-83026, c/n 1005 (ETO)
S/N 44-83027, c/n 1006 (ETO)
S/N 44-83028, c/n 1007 (MTO)
S/N 44-83029, c/n 1008 (MTO)

There is stong evidence this project received the highest priority from 'the powers that be', so much so that, in some cases, the lack of spares/items had to be made good by cannibalization performed on some of the aircraft used in the development program.

The ETO aircraft were disassembled, boxed and shipped as deck cargo to Burtonwood, England, on Dec. 15, 1944, arriving in the U.K on December 30. It took a whole month, to reassemble and get the two aircraft ready, the extremely cold weather being appearently a major factor.

The two pilots, Col. Marcus Cooper and Major Fredric Austin Borsodi, of the Air Technical Service Command HQ, based at Wright Field, arrived sometimes in January 1945, and Col. Cooper took 44-86026 on the type's first flight outside the U.S.
Maj. Borsodi was at the controls of the same aircraft, on Jan.28, when a failure in tension of the tail-pipe flange caused part of the hot gasses to exhaust inside the after section of the fuselage,with varying degree of damage to the tail surfaces and rear empenage disintegration. Borsodi lost control of the aircraft which crashed on farmland, near Bold. Borsodi was killed.

44-83027 was loaned to The Rolls Royce Engine Company, for flight tests of their B.41 (Nene) engine and was destroyed in an accident on Nov. 14, 1945.

Although the MTO aircraft performed far better, at least from the operational point of view, much less is known as of their operational service. I have obtained a copy of the two Individual Aircraft History Cards and their contents can be best described as 'skimpy and vague'.

44-83028 is shown as departing the Con-U.S. on Dec. 26, 1944 for overseas destination code DUKO, MET (Italy, 12th A.F.). It is then listed as being back to the Con-U.S. (an Air Materiel Command in Buffalo, NY) on June 16, 1945

44-83029 is shown as departing the Con-U.S. for an unreported overseas destination on Dec. 26, 1944, returning from same on Jun. 16, 1945.

A well known photograph of the two aircraft formating Ner Mt. Vesuvius, near Naples, taken by what appears to be an Olive Drab painted F-6 Photo-Mustang, has appeared in several publications.

Some considerations: although the MTO aircraft were shipped 11 days after the ETO aircraft were, the far less inclement weather of Southern Italy makes it - my humble opinion only - not unlikely the MTO aircraft were first flown around the same time their ETO counterparts first flew.

Another rumor has it that they were shipped to the relatively safer MTO to intercept the Arado Ar.234, that were flying recon missions from Udine, in Northern Italy. However, considering there are no records of German jets operating from, or over Italy, before February 1945, this cannot be!

I want to take advantage of this forum to thank Mr. Dan Hagerdon of the Archives Reference team of the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum and Mr. David A. Giordano of the Modern Military Records, Textual Archives Services Division of the Natl. Archives & Records Adm., in College Park, MD, for providing me with the best information on the MTO Project Extraversion aircraft I've been, so far, able to obtain.

I hope I'll be able, someday, to write the full story of this fascinating a so little known piece of WW2 history.


Now, I personally know Dan Hagerdon, and at the time (1995-96) David Giordano actually provided me with documentation on a naval project I was working on - so these are real people, and it is obvious that the OP was doing real research.

I will yield the floor to listen to your cited sources that counter these claims.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 09:26:08 AM by JHerne »
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Offline oakranger

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2010, 10:26:41 AM »
Good source you got, Jherne.  So, technically they did flew a few missions, not , in my statement, was about to fly its first combat mission hours before Germany surrender? 
Oaktree

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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2010, 11:14:52 AM »
This operation was classified until recently, so the depth of accurate information is limited, at least until someone makes another trip to the archive to locate the Project log. Even then, who knows what we'll truly find.

I look at the references I have on-hand, read the first-hand accounts of people who were there, and make my judgements based on the information I have in front of me.

Its not always a perfect science, especially since 60 years ago people weren't documenting every single move a unit made for the sake of appeasing some cartoon aviators in the future.

So in short, I believe these aircraft were undergoing operational testing, I believe they flew combat missions. I acknowledge the fact that they never saw actual combat with the enemy - but how many missions were flown by P-51s and P-47s where they didn't encounter any enemy aircraft? The luck of the draw I suppose. But (as I mentioned in my previous post that drew so much ire), had the war gone on, there's a distinct possibility that they would have encountered a Luftwaffe aircraft. No chance it would have  been a 262, close to no chance it would have been an Ar234, but most likely a 190 or 109 variant.

J
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2010, 11:41:18 AM »
Not quite sure what you are so pissy about Jherne.  What do you think we are arguing about?  And who got mad at you about a post?  My apologies if you felt like you were getting jumped on about this.  It just isn't that big a deal.

No one is arguing that the P80s were where they were.  We can argue about "Operational testing" til the cows come home. It's a bit like the argument that comes up on those North African Tiffies that were attached to an RAAF squadron for "Operational testing".  We have no evidence they ever saw combat either.  That what might have been with the P80s will remain that because the war didn't continue. 

Speculation is exactly that.  I became good friends with an RAF pilot who was a B of B vet and then later a Supermarine service test pilot.  When he went back to ops in 1944 it was with 616 on Meteors.  My speculation is that the P80s were doing what the Meteors did initially.  The Meteors did a lot of pilot orientation, dissimilar training for the combat pilots vs jets.  Possibly providing training to bomber gunners vs a potential jet threat etc.

With the V-1 threat those jets got pushed into service yet the Brits were very slow to use them in Europe, even with an obvious jet threat from the 262s and the RAF at least had them in squadron strength.

Bottom line is there is nothing beyond speculation to suggest the P80s got anywhere near combat.

More power to you if you research it to the point it can be proven otherwise.
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Offline oakranger

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2010, 01:02:25 PM »
Well, i think we all can agree that 4 P-80 where in Europe at the end of the War.  The question about them (at least two) where push into combat stage will be one of them things that we may never know unless the individuals who where there know what happen.  Guppy35, Jherne, I and other provide info of what they have gather and we educate other who do not know anything about the P-80.
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Naval Aircraft Carriers + B-25 Mitchells
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2010, 01:16:49 PM »
Not quite sure what you are so pissy about Jherne.  What do you think we are arguing about?  And who got mad at you about a post?  My apologies if you felt like you were getting jumped on about this.  It just isn't that big a deal.

I apologize if you felt that was directed at you - it wasn't. My lasagna post was in reference to this, which is about as short-sighted as anyone can get, especially if there's not a single source to back it up, other than saying "Because I said so." :

They were not undergoing operational testing.  They were getting a bit of feed back from pilots who had seen combat but hadn't been pulled back to the states yet.  There are very few examples of operational testing using a "YP" aircraft.

Since you are misrepresenting why the YP-80s were there it is easy to see how you can claim "If the war had lasted another month they would have seen combat.", which is a complete fabrication.
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