Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: slayem on October 19, 2010, 11:44:23 AM
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I made a post in the wishlist section but will repeat it here for your thoughts. The one thing missing from
late war pacific set ups is the kamikaze factor. If a bomb value could be given to japanese planes it would give
outclassed japanese planes the chance to "Break divine wind" upon the enemy as in the real war and cause
additional damamge on their way to the great cherry blosom festival in the sky. It would also force the allies to
adopt the "Nothing gets through" posture that made their defensive stratgey so intense. It could be the
balance some late war set ups lack due to aircraft performance.
Your input is appreciated. :salute
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I made a post in the wishlist section but will repeat it here for your thoughts. The one thing missing from
late war pacific set ups is the kamikaze factor. If a bomb value could be given to japanese planes it would give
outclassed japanese planes the chance to "Break divine wind" upon the enemy as in the real war and cause
additional damamge on their way to the great cherry blosom festival in the sky.
The Kamikaze's failed in their effort, and though they sank ships and killed sailors, they lost the battles they engaged in.
If you are the Axis CiC for a PTO setup frame, are you going to throw the chance for victory away by losing more planes and pilots (point value) than you are inflicting critical damage (point value)?
It would also force the allies to
adopt the "Nothing gets through" posture that made their defensive strategy so intense.
I think both sides in FSO already use that approach.
It could be the
balance some late war set ups lack due to aircraft performance.
Actually I believe it would make an already tough situation, even worse for the Axis, especially if the fleet(s) size and ack lethality was upped accordingly.
Your input is appreciated
A few guys have done it in past frames, out of frustration, or no chance of making it home, or just out of the chance for a laugh, some immersion, and a great screenshot, and it has been funny as all heck to watch, everytime for sure, but in my opinion that is where it should stay. At least, as long as FSO remains and objective based situation with both sides attempting to carry the day. Now certainly an operation could be specifically designed around the kamikaze offensive, like an Okinawa anniversary or something like that, but I think I would fly Allies for that, unless of course their was something else for the Axis pilots to do for the other 1 hour, 59 minutes of the night. Of course that is just my opinion and your results may vary.
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From a design perspective there are two problems. The first is you would probably need "2nd lives" which is a pain to try and implement for a variety of reasons, and secondly, many FSO players would not want Kamikaze duty assigned to them. For those two reasons I usually avoid trying to use Kamikaze units in FSO. If and when we get AI bombers in Aces High, that may be a time to have a 2nd look at it. Thats just me of course I dont speak for the entire FSO staff or player base.
Was going to add its also a problem to have the players "fly" like a Kamikaze pilot; to not dogfight and to fly a fighter loaded with bombs and fuel to the target, and the problem of not being abke to recreate a single engined a/c loaded with extra explosives ect and ealing with "violations" of the rules "I attacked a Kamikaze player and he dogfighted me thats cheating" ect ect ect...I see the whole thing as a huge headache without AI a/c to do the mission.
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It's not aircraft performance, its the pilot slayem. I guess your implying allied planes are better, but there have been mostly Axis victories in the last 6 months. If you feel the need to crash and go to the MA because its fun to you, by all means do so. I dont think anyone cares because the rest of the axis side will make up for the point losses you cause with kills. :banana:
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It's not aircraft performance, its the pilot slayem. I guess your implying allied planes are better, but there have been mostly Axis victories in the last 6 months. If you feel the need to crash and go to the MA because its fun to you, by all means do so. I dont think anyone cares because the rest of the axis side will make up for the point losses you cause with kills. :banana:
Conspiracy theory.
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Conspiracy theory.
I'm biased because I dont like his people or his idea, but conspiracy indeed :noid
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True Kamikaze attacks would not work. If your bomb doesnt travel 1000 feet after release it fails to detonate. You have to drop the bomb so you're still basically having to aim the bomb not just the airplane.
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I'm biased because I dont like his people or his idea, but conspiracy indeed :noid
Thanks for the serious input so far. Reasons make good sense to me. Jonah as far as best pilot wins i agree.
However, given two pilots of equal skill, he with the best equipment has a distinct advantage. As far as not liking
my people, I guess you have good reason. They can be kind of hard on those who flee and forsake their
squadmates when times get tough. As far as Swampdragons bailing on our missions in FSO, our results speak for themselves.
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Barring the admin issues with one way flights I like the idea of planned and designated K-Flights given this scenario. I hate and complained about this when my squad was on the receiving end of squad sized K-Flights in past scenario's. But if it were planned, with clear rules and authorized then its different. To the point made above about cheating. Gotta have clear rules and penalty's as well.
Give the pilots 2 lives. No later than hit times like H+105, leaving 15 minutes for the ALLIED planes to land to avoid the H+119 strike while you are trying to land. Realistic max numbers so that the entire IJN side doesn't go. Limit them to the early war AC like the A6M2's / B5N's or D3A's. Have designed attack by times for both lives like H+50 strike 01, H+105 strike 02. This keeps guys from using just 1 life and flying around behind and attacking from an unrealistic attack angle. Perhapes a frame 3 only addition given the dire position of the IJN forces at that time. Likewise crank up the CV ack to a more realistic level and make it hard for them to get through the wall of bullets. Or let the ALLIES man the guns. Just ideas.
I think you would find a number of squads willing to take on the mission myself. Such as larger squads with 2-4 pilots designated and the remainder escorting them in. It would be very similar to a bomber and escort type mission, generally speaking.
I also don't think this would be an easy mission for the ALLIES to defend against. But would be fun in the process.
Would be fun for the IJN side also pulling the escort mission to get them there. The distraction mission to tie up the defenders while the K-flights come in NOE. Deacking boats prior to the K-Flight arrival, to make it easier to get through. Lots of ideas and concepts that would make it hard for the ALLIES to defend against. Similarly to what really happened.
Again however the admin issues of assessing damage might be harder than it looks and thus a nonstarter.
And true the Kamikaze flights themselves were a failure in real life for a number of reasons which most of us have read about. But this is cartoon land and it might be fun to see what happens just once. After all this is a "What if" scenario isn't it?
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Just.... No.
Really? No.
Period. End of discussion.
There was nothing noble about brainwashing the masses too scared to take a dump without permission of the Emperor. Throughout history suicide bombers have been intentionally lied to, duped, kept ignorant intentionally, told never to question authority then stuck into a C4-laden vest.... There's nothing noble about trying to mimick it in game, because it takes no skill. Millions of augers are counted every month in the LWAs. They are a sign of SHAME, not of skill.
Trying to indoctrinate folks into WANTING to do kamikaze attacks on purpose is mentally retarded ("deficient" if the filters stop that word).
Really.. If you want to emulate kamikaze, or muslim suicide bombers, or IRA car bombers, you have a screw loose and need serious help from medical personnel.
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By that logic there should be no axis aircraft at all.
As to mental defects, the surest sign of ignorance is arrogance.
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There is a difference between seeing long odds, going charging in for the fun of it, and saying "F--- this, I'm suiciding and ending my life forever"
Even in a game there is a spirit of fun when you go into long odds in FSO. You never know. I had a heart-pumping sortie in a B-26 in frame 2 a couple weeks ago... Just about ran out of adrenaline, flying 50 miles and then some through enemy territory, bombing a field, and getting back out...
Yet I never intended to suicide, I never intended to give up without a fight.
You're just proposing a defeatist attitude, path of least resistance, no effort....
That kills the "fun" in this game, and just as surely would kill off FSO participation.
Careful, your arrogance is showing...
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A long time ago I did an event where kamikazes were used. We had judges on the boats and tallied the hits that way. Not every plane was a kamikaze, only a certain type, and it was the fighters job to get them there. They had 2 lives as well. Was pretty fun.
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No krusty, I'm just saying they did them in the war and it might be another vector toward realism if we did.
Indoctrinating suicide minions? Really? I think someone is trying to blow smoke up my Fatwah.
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Thanks for the serious input so far. Reasons make good sense to me. Jonah as far as best pilot wins i agree.
However, given two pilots of equal skill, he with the best equipment has a distinct advantage. As far as not liking
my people, I guess you have good reason. They can be kind of hard on those who flee and forsake their
squadmates when times get tough. As far as Swampdragons bailing on our missions in FSO, our results speak for themselves.
Well im actually quite the opposite. Tomagina and you run at every chance you get. Him in his pony and you in your typhie for the sake of your score. Which by the way no one cares about.
I didnt do FSO's or missions with you guys because you were way to nasty, controlling, and just not very good at what you said you were good at. (i.e Winging up). FSO's with you guys were basically drop all your altitude and separate from eachother to hord a couple of planes, then panic when the other side would jump in and wipe you all out before 5 minutes past.
Thats why i hated flying with you and thats why you guys still cant kill anything. And even when we agreed to establish altitude and be smart about flying in FSO, everyone abandoned it. The only one who knows what hes doing is hymi and jr. The rest of you need to stay in bombers. The fact that you suggest using a perfectly good fighter as ordanence is just sad. And how long are the "tough times" supposed to last. Oh yeah and your "results"...Your squad FSO stats show you barely get over, if at all, the same number of kills as pilots in your squad.
So stop barking orders at eachother, worrying about score, and practice and you may actually have some fun in FSO.
By that logic there should be no axis aircraft at all.
As to mental defects, the surest sign of ignorance is arrogance.
"our results speak for themselves"
sounds pretty arrogant to me
:salute
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See Rule #4
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yes its the thrill of the fight sukov. but if slayem had it his way we'd fly our planes into other planes and boats rather than put up a fight. lame
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FiLtH appreciate the comments from what was tried before :salute Personally I think its worth a try during this scenario if its not to late and wouldn't cause the CM's pain and suffering in creating the rules, scoring and penitalties on short notice. Would be a good use for them 36 A6M's :D
Although I believe Mr. Krusty "might" be against the idea. :salute
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Jonah,
Tomagina and you run at every chance you get. Him in his pony and you in your typhie for the sake of your score. Which by the way no one cares about.
1) Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this post.
I didnt do FSO's or missions with you guys because you were way to nasty, controlling, and just not very good at what you said you were good at. (i.e Winging up). FSO's with you guys were basically drop all your altitude and separate from eachother to hord a couple of planes, then panic when the other side would jump in and wipe you all out before 5 minutes past.
2) Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this post.
The fact that you suggest using a perfectly good fighter as ordanence is just sad.
3) Wow...an actual comment on the topic. Yes that is "sad". Was that historically correct? Hmmm...why yes it was. Was Slayem asking for the whole axis side to fly into the ground?...No he wasn't. Slow down when your reading and take the chip off your shoulder.
Jonah...Its so nice to see that your still arrogant and disrespectful. :(
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:aok
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3) Wow...an actual comment on the topic. Yes that is "sad". Was that historically correct? Hmmm...why yes it was. Was Slayem asking for the whole axis side to fly into the ground?...No he wasn't. Slow down when your reading and take the chip off your shoulder.
Jonah...Its so nice to see that your still arrogant and disrespectful. :(
I didnt say the whole axis either.
Seem to recall you telling me "you welcome back anytime" after i left, but it sounds like you still miss me though. Slayem brought it up jackraid, just thought it fair I cross examine his claim of me not being a team player.
By the way I'm assuming slayem brought this up because the next two FSO's are in the Pacific theatre.
Nothing is historically accurate about this next FSO because its a "what if" scenario. We havent had and a istrically accurate FSO in 3 months.
It basically is "what if history was like this and it turned out this way?" You can draw conclusions based upon plane set, but its still not historically accurate
It shouldnt be implemented in the game unless there are ONLY japanese planes doing it. 110's shouldnt be able to fly into boats because you got 20s and 30s and you wanna ram your plane?
We both know dale wont ever make this happen.
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Thanks to all the guys who have shared comments relative to the issue. :cheers: I still feel it would add another layer to the Frames in question. Imagine being in a F4u-4 or hog and having to give up your advantages to protect
your flagship. That's when it gets fun. It would require intense mission focus on both sides.
Jonah(sigh), as far as the Swampdragons stats in FSO, Go back and count how many times the Swampdragons
have ranked in the top 3 for our side in damage or kills respective to our mission. Twice this past Set-up alone.
Back up your claim by reporting what you find from the last 10 to 20 Set-ups. How many times our Squad or
pilots rank. It only matters to us, by the way, because it represents mission success. Flying in FSO to the Swampdragons is about taking the mission given us and making it happen. I think you will find also that it matters
quite a bit to the CIC's who spend a lot of time trying to formulate plans and win.I dare say they consider us a asset. Given our results and your comments it's clear to me you still don't know teamwork when you see it.
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Filth touched on a point about the events where there were kamikaze. Right now a plane crash into an object has no affect on an object and is not recorded in the logs (the crash is reported but no object damaged is recorded or happens). So from a code stand point Kamikaze can't happen. The only way to simulate it as Filth states to have an observer on each ship and film / confirm hits. This is awkward at best and an observer can miss things (i.e. he is stationed on the CV and not on the DD that a plane crashes into, or he is stationed on a CV and a plane strikes the CV near the water line where his view is blocked by the flight deck).
Trying to record or score kamikaze attacks would not be 100% objective or verifiable which is the real problem.
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Thanks Filth and Ghost and all others who have addressed the topic reasonably so far. :rock
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See Rule #4
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GD thanks for your post it added much clarity. I thought as much from what little I know about the scoring system. Perhaps in the future there might be way to accomplish it but as I can read there isn't right now. Case closed.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rules #2, #4
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See Rules #2, #4
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I am not keen on Kamikazes in FSO, but if an Admin wanted to try them I would be willing to listen. Right now the biggest limitation is as Ghostdancer stated. Can't record it in the logs and the damage is null.
As for all the other off topic, personal comments some of you are making about this squad or that squad, I suggest you drop it or you will be forced to play in another sand box.
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<snip>
As for all the other off topic, personal comments some of you are making about this squad or that squad, I suggest you drop it or you will be forced to play in another sand box.
Quoted for truth. If you cannot make a positive contribution to the thread topic, then you need to move along. We (HTC) have "zero" tolerance for players who cannot act with respect towards the special events and the members who work to make them happen.
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See Rule #4
« Last Edit: Today at 09:23:20 AM by Skuzzy »
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See Rule #4
« Last Edit: Today at 09:23:20 AM by Skuzzy »
Damn, Skuzzy is good!
He pwnd you an hour before you even posted it. :rofl
Jim,
I kinda like the idea, but..... only if it can be implemented fairly. Since it wouldn't be through the coading, it's gonna be difficult.
As for the pissing contests in the only sanctuary left in this game?
Sad.
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Scoring the Kamikazes:
Use an aircraft that is clearly out matched and defenseless such as a Ju-87 with a small bomb load – jettison the 1000 kg bomb on runway and keep the two 250 kg bombs as an example. Put a low point value (like 1 or even 0 points) for the aircraft. There may be little to no points earned by the defenders for shooting the Kamikazes down but they do keep them from earning points. And the Kamikazes earn their points the same as it is always done – by putting bombs on the target. We had a scenario where points where awarded for each ton of damage done to a CV. The same thing can be done here but they should get more points for getting bombs on the target then they loose if the aircraft is lost. This should create the motivation to dive in deep to ensure they hit with their bombs. So actually crashing the plane into the target earns nothing and does not need to be tracked.
Now why a CiC would want to commit a portion of his highly skilled forces to a Kamikaze attack when he could better use his resources by putting them in heavy fighters or bombers is beyond me.
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MachNix having bombs attached or not doesn't matter for the code. If you slam into a structure with bombs attached to your plane it does no damage to the structure. So it goes back to the only way to verify a hit by a kamikaze is visually. So the CMs would have to have an observer on each ship who would need to film the attach so we have some way to verify it.
Even then the ship could be hit but the observer might not be able to verify it do to parts of the ship blocking their view.
In most of my FSOs I awarded points for partial damage done to a CV. I can tell you basically how much lbs of ordinance are put on a ship. But the key here is that the bomb must be armed and hit the ship. If the bomb is not armed then the logs don't record it. So once again no way to verify except visually whether the Kamikaze hit a ship or not.
All the logs will record is that Kamikaze crashed nothing more. No differentiation between crashing into the sea, the ground, a CV, a hangar, etc. Just a recording of a crash.
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Scoring the Kamikazes:
Use an aircraft that is clearly out matched and defenseless such as a Ju-87 with a small bomb load – jettison the 1000 kg bomb on runway and keep the two 250 kg bombs as an example. Put a low point value (like 1 or even 0 points) for the aircraft. There may be little to no points earned by the defenders for shooting the Kamikazes down but they do keep them from earning points. And the Kamikazes earn their points the same as it is always done – by putting bombs on the target. We had a scenario where points where awarded for each ton of damage done to a CV. The same thing can be done here but they should get more points for getting bombs on the target then they loose if the aircraft is lost. This should create the motivation to dive in deep to ensure they hit with their bombs. So actually crashing the plane into the target earns nothing and does not need to be tracked.
Obviously, I did not make it clear in the red text above that the Kamikazes had to drop their bombs and the bombs had to explode on the target. As you know, this is the way it currently works for all aircraft. The Kamikazes get no points and cause no damage for ramming the ship. Ramming is not required or mandatory. Since the point value for the aircraft is so low, their survival does not have an impact on the score. Now you may want them to crash after they drop their bombs so the defenders can concentrate on those aircraft that still have bombs.
Again, I don't see why a CiC would use his forces in this way but it could be done using the scoring tools currently available.
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Sorry I read it as the bombs were still attached and you were putting the bombs and plane on target. Didn't realize you meant actually release the bombs.
So what you are saying is:
1) Designer designate a certain plane type as Kamikaze.
2) This plane to have a different point value than other planes when killed
3) To score the bombs must hit and explode and the Kamikaze plane must die. If he doesn't then no difference between him and normal bomber / attack plane.
It is issue item three that would be the issue. If it not required for the Kamikaze to die then technically he could dive bomb from high alt, pull out, and head for home. Or he could level bomb and then head for home. From the logs we know the bombs hit but nothing else. No idea of alt, level or dive bomb, etc. So to simulate we would have to a death recorded ... either crash or death in the logs shortly after the bombs.
Other question is what if he doesn't die? The damage will still count but he didn't simulate a kamikaze which is why his plane has less point value.
You would also have another possible issue even if he does die. What if he releases from high alt, so outside of the effective AA guns. Then he goes and crashes afterwards. Basically making sure he gets his bombs on target. However, a real kamikaze could be stopped by a well place shot at extreme short range. In this scenario the kamikaze can't be forced to do a short range attack. No good way to simulate it.
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On Item 3: The Kamikaze does not have to die. The only thing that distinguishes the Kamikaze from any normal bomber or attack plane in the event is it being outclassed by the other planes. I would not want to see the Kamikazes actually mixing it up with the defenders and I picked the Ju-87 just as an example because I don’t think the 87 is any match for a Seafire or F4F if the 87 decided to fight.
The only thing in FSO that makes the Kamikaze a Kamikaze is he is flying a plane that he shouldn’t be able to dog fight in so they should not be earning points for air kills, the plane is essentially worthless so there is no concern about bring the airplane back, and the only sure way of earning points is to hit the ships with bombs.
When dive bombing, you have two things to consider. On the one hand the deeper you go the greater chance you have of hitting the ship. On the other hand the deeper you go the greater the chances of getting hit by the AA guns before you get your bombs off. If someone is able to hit a ship from high altitude and outside the AA gun range, then so be it. But are you depending on the AA guns to protect the ships? I say it is up to the defenders to intercept and destroy the Kamikazes before they can get to the ships.
The event designers can play with the numbers to keep the event balanced. If they think a lot of Kamikazes will get through and hit the ships, then either they can restrict the bomb load to say 500 lbs and/or reduce the number of points awarded for each pound of damage done.
I agree that there is no good way to simulate a Kamikaze. IMO, the average player already has more experience with the virtual hardware then the real life Kamikaze did during the war. Using Kamikazes in FSO is possible under the current scoring system but I feel it would be a waste of talent.
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On Item 3: The Kamikaze does not have to die.
I have to completely disagree on everything you've typed... It's one thing to be "outclassed" and usually one side is. You come up with tactics and plans of attack to help counter this disadvantage....
Kamikaze is specifically the act of killing oneself in hope of damaging the enemy worse than the loss of your life damaged YOUR team.
Your entire description of disadvantaged planes, well.... Honestly? Sh** happens. Why build in a stupid "plow yourself into a battleship" part of that sh**? I don't think any one of us enjoys "dying" in FSO, but I'd be pretty sure all of us hates dying "for nothing" (i.e. afk, i.e. power loss, i.e. didn't see an enemy flying along and POOF).
Kamikaze is bad for AH, end of story.
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Really.. If you want to emulate kamikaze, or muslim suicide bombers, or IRA car bombers, you have a screw loose and need serious help from medical personnel.
We must take the moral high ground and stick to the acceptable ways of killing people :rolleyes:
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Krusty,
The purpose of using a disadvantaged plane is to simulate the Kamikaze’s lack of skill. The Japanese had a pile of planes and a bunch of untrained people. The plan they came up with was to give them few hours of stick-time and show them how to crash into a ship. It was the quickest and easiest way for them to turn what they had into a weapon.
As far as dying for nothing goes, anytime you did in this game it is for nothing. But I agree with you that the Kamikaze has no place in AH. We are all highly trained cartoon pilots and can bomb a cartoon ship without having to crash into it.
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This thread has been OWNED by Skuzzy. Includes one perma ban.
The Kamikaze thing has no credibility. Why would you ask HTC to take the time and make such a code or system where your plane did damage to an object. Wouldn't you rather have an HE 111 ;)
perdweeb