Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DERK13 on October 22, 2010, 02:43:08 PM
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Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic ;)) <S> tell me what you know.
Redtail
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The guy who sat on a crate of TNT and lit a smoke. He broke the sound barrier first. Although, he didn't live to enjoy the glory. :cry
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This one is not going to end well.
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2010/10/wtfkells.gif)
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I am sure many people exceeded the speed of sound on the way to their deaths. Maybe even some survived accidentally.
What you really must ask yourself is this:
Who has the recorded telemetry, the scientific data necessary to PROVE it.
Think on that a spell and let me know if you need the answer provided to you.
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You are so prejudice when it comes to this subject.......... :rofl
I am sure many people exceeded the speed of sound on the way to their deaths. Maybe even some survived accidentally.
What you really must ask yourself is this:
Who has the recorded telemetry, the scientific data necessary to PROVE it.
Think on that a spell and let me know if you need the answer provided to you.
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I am sure many people exceeded the speed of sound on the way to their deaths. Maybe even some survived accidentally.
What you really must ask yourself is this:
Who has the recorded telemetry, the scientific data necessary to PROVE it.
Think on that a spell and let me know if you need the answer provided to you.
We have a winner, folks. I keep telling everyone I have a Ferrari in the garage at home, doesn't make it true. Sho us the facts. :cheers: :salute
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Just cause you saw it on the Military Channel yesterday doesn't mean it's right :) Since you are combining stories from the show on Fighters yesterday lets at least clarify it.
Some have suggested that George Welch in the XP86A may have broken the sound barrier in a dive prior to Yeager. It will always remain speculation at this point as there is no definitive proof.
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Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic ;)) <S> tell me what you know.
Redtail
Yeager broke the sound barrier in 1947, the F-86 entered USAF service in 1949... You be the judge.
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Shifty saved me some typing.
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We have a winner, folks. I keep telling everyone I have a Ferrari in the garage at home, doesn't make it true. Sho us the facts. :cheers: :salute
right but not having the facts or the examples to back something up dosent change the FACT that it happened....im sure a long time ago...when people said the earth was round. and others said prove it, and they really couldnt, besides theory, dosent change the fact that the world is round...
not having the facts to back up a statment does not mean its not a fact.
i can say i have a Lexus in my drive way (its not mine) but its there....thought i didnt put up a picture proving it....does not change the fact that its the truth....
whether or not people believe it, does not change whether or not it actually happened.
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If you build it...... They will come!!!
whether or not people believe it, does not change whether or not it actually happened.
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Shifty saved me some typing.
Same here.
Plus, Yeager was the first in level flight.
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This is a nice write-up about the subject.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4154 (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4154)
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Yeager, in level flight. George "Wheaties" Welch in a dive, several days before.
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Yeager broke the sound barrier in 1947, the F-86 entered USAF service in 1949... You be the judge.
It broke the sound barrier in testing, before it ever entered service.
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without a plane? Joe Kittinger did
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Yea chuck did it in level flight but sound barrier is the sound barrier, if you broke it you broke level or dive still happened either way you look at it. And just because the plane wasnt in service doesnt mean it still wasnt broke, there is no rule saying it has to be in service to break the sound barrier. Jeez
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Yea chuck did it in level flight but sound barrier is the sound barrier, if you broke it you broke level or dive still happened either way you look at it. And just because the plane wasnt in service doesnt mean it still wasnt broke, there is no rule saying it has to be in service to break the sound barrier. Jeez
Here's your OP... I put the text in bold where you say pilots... The first test Saber flew Oct 1st 1947 just short of two weeks before Yeager' Bell X1 flight on the 14th. It sounds as if you're stating it was a regular occurance by numerous pilots in numerous aircraft.
Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic ;)) <S> tell me what you know.
Redtail
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Something tells me no F-86 pilot was doing full power dive tests within two weeks after the first flight of the aircraft.
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The sound barrier was most likely broken during the time of the second world war. Most likely several times. If I recall correctly at least one man survived. Again though, Yeager is credited with being the first to do so with sole intent, with an airplane design specifically to study the transonic region, and with intrumentation that recorded the proof.
Yeager has rightfully gone down in history as the first man to break the sound barrier with evidence and live to talk about it.
F86s? I agree it is a believable story, but without proof it is strictly historical conjecture.
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Ok, I'll chime in here...in an official capacity...
I was the Director of the NJ Aviation Hall of Fame and Museum from 1997-2005. In that museum, we have most of the records from a company called Reaction Motors (of Denville, NJ). Reaction Motors claim to fame was XLR-11, a variable thrust liquid fuel rocket motor that was used in the X-1 (and also a 4-motor version in the X-15). Reaction Motors also developed the XLR-99, the world's first high-variable thrust rocket motor. Bell Aircraft's first X-1 test pilot was a gent named Chamlers Goodlin, aka 'Slick' Goodlin.
I knew the man personally and were good friends. Sadly, cancer took him in 2005, but, in several conversations, he related that HE piloted the X-1 beyond the sound barrier more than once. Slick made 26 flights in the X-1 before it was handed over the USAF. Because the X-1 was an Air Force project, that fact was kept under wraps.
It was determined that the official breaking of the sound barrier was to be done by the military as a way to show off to the world. Chalmers commented that because the media and the world were watching, they (Bell and the USAF) wanted to make sure that the sound barrier could indeed be broken without destroying the aircraft. In other words, it was a perfectly planned media event.
Now, take that for what its worth. Perhaps he was a man who felt jilted that someone else did and got the glory. Perhaps he's telling the truth. All I know, is that I had a signed photo of Goodlin hanging in my office, and there was no denying what the man accomplished.
Take it for what its worth.
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The sound barrier was most likely broken during the time of the second world war. Most likely several times. If I recall correctly at least one man survived.
What in?
Couldn't be the 262.
Willy Messerschmitt carried out extensive wind tunnel tests and stated it could only attain Mach 0.86.
It is possible they reached transonic speeds, but this isn't breaking the sound barrier.
Hans Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier in a 262, but all the effects he describes are regarded to have been the onset of transonic flight.
[edit] The RAE conlcuded Mach 0.84.
However both parties said any higher speed would result in an uncontrollable, un-recoverable dive.
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What in?
Couldn't be the 262.
Willy Messerschmitt carried out extensive wind tunnel tests and stated it could only attain Mach 0.86.
It is possible they reached transonic speeds, but this isn't breaking the sound barrier.
Hans Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier in a 262, but all the effects he describes are regarded to have been the onset of transonic flight.
[edit] The RAE conlcuded Mach 0.84.
However both parties said any higher speed would result in an uncontrollable, un-recoverable dive.
Taken from the link (Was Chuck Yeager the First to Break the Sound Barrier? (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4154)) that was posted a couple of posts above.
Mutke's report was given additional credibility in 1999, when computer modeling and scale model wind tunnel testing conducted at Munich Technical University found that the 262 was capable of reaching, and passing, Mach 1.
ack-ack
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Something tells me no F-86 pilot was doing full power dive tests within two weeks after the first flight of the aircraft.
I have an uncle (in his mid eighties now) who flew F86's (as well as Vampires and Meteors) in the RAF during the late 50's and early 60's. He has a certificate obtained flying an F86 which proclaims him a member of the 'Canadian Mach Buster's Club'. From what I understand the F86 would slip through (the sound barrier) quite easily in a dive, if true then welch's claims seem quite believable.
Interestingly, the British assault on the barrier produced the Miles M52 which never flew due to government cutbacks. In a reciprocal research agreement boffins from the USA were given full access to the Brit's data and research, but the USA never honoured their side of the bargain, instead choosing to keep their cards close to their chest and race for the title using the newly aquired data. I read somewhere that recent tests indicate the M52 could have easily broken the barrier, and there is little question that Chuck would have been killed without the British input. That's what allies are for, I guess.
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Yeager, in level flight. George "Wheaties" Welch in a dive, several days before.
Thank you look it up ppl
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Thank you look it up ppl
It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight. Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier. So who broke it first? Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.
ack-ack
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Thank you look it up ppl
What AKAK said. And your original post implied lots of 86 pilots had done it before Yeager. You clearly saw the show on the Military Channel where they were talking about the 86 and the guy mentioned that 86s broke the speed of sound in a dive. Many Sabre drivers did it but that was after Yeager. The 86 hadn't reached operational squadrons at that point.
Welch's flight was in the first 86 and is not official and still debated. In the end it really doesn't matter at this point. Apparently the catch is one was in a dive and one was in level flight.
Yeager was credited with being the first October 14, 1947 in the Bell X-1
Officially Welch broke the speed of sound in the XP86 in a shallow dive on November 13, 1947. I've also seen it reported as not until April 26, 1948.
Probably the one thing folks could agree with is that both Yeager and Welch thought quite highly of themselves and were both very competitive. Welch was with the wartime 80th Headhunters for a while flying 38s and apparently thought he could play by a different set of rules based on his Pearl Harbor exploits. He and 80th CO Porky Cragg didn't get along at all if the histories can be believed.
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It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight. Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier. So who broke it first? Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.
ack-ack
Yep.
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What in?
F4U :noid :noid :bolt:
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I broke wind in level flight just the other day. The guy next to me never even knew. Or did he?
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Widewing's site (Planes and Pilots of WWII) had an article on the likelihood of Wheaties Welch breaking the barrier first in a shallow dive. No diffinitive proof, but several interesting circumstantial bits of info. I guess his site has gone down.
Best.
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There were several planes from several countries that broke the sound barrier according to pilots and unofficial observers. Many as stated before on the way to a crash. Most were accidentally done and not planned. But Yeager's was officially recorded. As for the other X-1 pilots before Yeager, would be interesting to know what their speed was and altitude which makes a difference. Yeager may have also been the fastest over Mach 1 at the time. (?) Good post for thought tho.
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In my mind there is no doubt that 262 in certain conditions could and did break the sound barrier in a dive, although due to serious controllability problems Mutke was probably quite fortunate to survive the event. I have also understood that F86 could also exceed speed of sound, and also do it more safely than 262, but it was never confirmed from the ground with measurements so those remained unofficial (although I thought that the sonic boom is quite good confirmation). The X-1 program had the specific plane and measuring systems to confirm the speeds so it was quite natural for the credit to go there too.
If that is such a huge deed then let Mr Yeager have the glory by all means. :P
-C+
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In my mind there is no doubt that 262 in certain conditions could and did break the sound barrier in a dive, although due to serious controllability problems Mutke was probably quite fortunate to survive the event. I have also understood that F86 could also exceed speed of sound, and also do it more safely than 262, but it was never confirmed from the ground with measurements so those remained unofficial (although I thought that the sonic boom is quite good confirmation). The X-1 program had the specific plane and measuring systems to confirm the speeds so it was quite natural for the credit to go there too.
If that is such a huge deed then let Mr Yeager have the glory by all means. :P
-C+
If our 262 can't do it in-game, it couldn't in real life! After all, they're one in the same, right? :P
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I've surpassed 800 IAS in a 163 while in a straight down dive from 50k.
Not sure if its possible to break Mach though.
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Word on the street is that Hoover was so pissed at not being selected as prime by Boyd that he snuck into the X1 and hid behind Yeagers seat on Oct 14, 47. So there were TWO people to officially break the SB simultaneoulsy.
Take that to the bank and try cashing it :banana:
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Word on the street is that Hoover was so pissed at not being selected as prime by Boyd that he snuck into the X1 and hid behind Yeagers seat on Oct 14, 47. So there were TWO people to officially break the SB simultaneoulsy.
Take that to the bank and try cashing it :banana:
I thought Hoover was flying chase in the F-80 :)
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I thought Hoover was flying chase in the F-80 :)
That was Ridley. This thing was planned out. A Ridley/Hoover conspiracy.
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Who was going faster when they exceeded the speed of sound?
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your all wrong ..
some guy with a bullwhip did many many years ago
The cracking sound a bullwhip makes when properly wielded is, in fact, a small sonic boom. The end of the whip, known as the "cracker", moves faster than the speed of sound, thus creating a sonic boom.[6] The whip was probably the first human invention to break the sound barrier.
A bullwhip tapers down from the handle section to the cracker. The cracker has much less mass than the handle section. When the whip is sharply swung, the energy is transferred down the length of the tapering whip. In accordance with the formula for kinetic energy Ek = mv2 / 2, the velocity of the whip increases with the decrease in mass, which is how the whip reaches the speed of sound and causes a sonic boom.
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your all wrong ..
some guy with a bullwhip did many many years ago
The cracking sound a bullwhip makes when properly wielded is, in fact, a small sonic boom. The end of the whip, known as the "cracker", moves faster than the speed of sound, thus creating a sonic boom.[6] The whip was probably the first human invention to break the sound barrier.
A bullwhip tapers down from the handle section to the cracker. The cracker has much less mass than the handle section. When the whip is sharply swung, the energy is transferred down the length of the tapering whip. In accordance with the formula for kinetic energy Ek = mv2 / 2, the velocity of the whip increases with the decrease in mass, which is how the whip reaches the speed of sound and causes a sonic boom.
Bull whips fly? Damn, where have I been.
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the OP never specified anything about flying just about 2 people flying assuming that was the only thing able to break the sound barrier. i guess it how you look at the question.
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I am sure many people exceeded the speed of sound on the way to their deaths. Maybe even some survived accidentally.
What you really must ask yourself is this:
Who has the recorded telemetry, the scientific data necessary to PROVE it.
Think on that a spell and let me know if you need the answer provided to you.
People that quote themselves in their sig line scare me :D
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i can say i have a Lexus in my drive way (its not mine) but its there....thought i didnt put up a picture proving it....does not change the fact that its the truth....
whether or not people believe it, does not change whether or not it actually happened.
Your daddy's?
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Everytime you snap a whip, you've broken the sound barrier. Cowboys were doing it long before yeager.
:x
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milesobrian is PNG, so disregard any of his posts in the thread.
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milesobrian is PNG, so disregard any of his posts in the thread.
:)
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Shifty saved me some typing.
You are both incorrect...
George Welch made the first flight in the XP-86 on October 1, 1947 at Muroc Field. He climbed to 35k, bunted-over into a dive and attained no less than Mach 1.02. He duplicated it on October 14, about and hour before the XS-1 with Yeager aboard was dropped from the B-29. Welch targeted the B-29 for the boom, diving past within 1,000 yards. Because North American Aviation had been expressly forbidden to take the XP-86 supersonic before the XS-1 program attained the milestone, these dives were done without flight data recorders running. However, Welch reported a first ever seen phenomenon, called "Mach Jump". If you talk to anyone in the Flight Test Community, they will tell you that if Welch saw this, he was supersonic. I know, because I researched this extensively, spending many hours chatting with test pilots and engineers at Edwards and Dryden.
Both times, the double-booms were noted at Muroc by many reliable witnesses. After the first dive, everyone, including the Bell team, knew that Welch had ignored the USAF order. Four weeks later, Welch repeated this with NACA observing the test dive. He reached Mach 1.04, and this dive IS fully documented.
It wasn't like the Air Force wasn't aware of Welch's forays above Mach 1. They called North American Aviation onto the carpet and warned them not to breathe a word of it. It wasn't until April of 1948 that the USAF announced that the XP-86 had exceeded the speed of sound. Why the secrecy? The Air Force's R&D budget was already being challenged by the Navy. All they needed was a privately funded, production prototype beating the XS-1 thru the sound barrier, and Congress would likely have chopped the heart out of the budget.
I could go into this in great depth, but I haven't the time to spend. I know Welch's son Jay. I've seen his dad's log book and photos of the XP-86's log book. On each dive exceeding a Mach 1 (including later dives fully documented), Welch made a notation.. "High Mach Dive".
Where can you read about this? You can buy Test Pilot All Blackburn's book, "Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One." Or you can read an abbreviated version in the Smithsonian's AirSpace magazine here: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/mach.html (http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/mach.html)
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I forgot to mention two things...
I was asked by Al's publisher to review Al's book. They sent me an uncorrected galley proof (draft copy), which I still have. My review is on the dust jacket, under my real name....
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:old:
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Welch's flight was in the first 86 and is not official and still debated. In the end it really doesn't matter at this point. Apparently the catch is one was in a dive and one was in level flight.
Yeager was credited with being the first October 14, 1947 in the Bell X-1
Officially Welch broke the speed of sound in the XP86 in a shallow dive on November 13, 1947. I've also seen it reported as not until April 26, 1948.
Probably the one thing folks could agree with is that both Yeager and Welch thought quite highly of themselves and were both very competitive. Welch was with the wartime 80th Headhunters for a while flying 38s and apparently thought he could play by a different set of rules based on his Pearl Harbor exploits. He and 80th CO Porky Cragg didn't get along at all if the histories can be believed.
Corky, what has being in a dive or level flight have to do with anything? The first is still the first. The recognized British record (first British aircraft to exceed Mach 1) involved a dive, an out of control dive to boot. Nonetheless, the record still stands. No double standards... However, the fact remains that the first British pilot to exceed Mach 1 was Bee Beaumont, flying the.. You guessed it, the XP-86.
No air breathing jet fighter exceeded Mach 1 in level flight until the first flight of the YP-100 Super Sabre. Guess who piloted it? Yep, George Welch.
Jay Welch related a story of his dad's issues with Porky Cragg. It seems that Welch tended to ignore orders he didn't care for. This was apparently more than Cragg could tolerate gladly. However, Cragg also knew that Welch was Hap Arnold's fair-haired boy and short of murdering someone, was untouchable.
An example of this was Welch's Squadron CO on Oahu. He disapproved Welch's CMoH recommendation, claiming that Welch had taken off without orders (he shot down 4, with two probables). Arnold was incensed and that officer's career was effectively over. It was Arnold that got Welch his test pilot position with North American after it was determined that Welch's malaria was too severe to allow him into the SWPA again. Once cleared for flying again, Arnold arranged to have Welch discharged and he immediately went to work at NA testing the P-51H, and later, the XP-82. Welch was selected as a test pilot for the XFJ-1 Fury and lead test pilot for XP-86 program.
Anyway, Cragg wasn't especially fond of Welch, but he recognized that Welch was one of the most talented fighter pilots in the Headhunters. Welch was well liked by his some of his squadron mates, but he was not the type to draw followers. Welch was a bit of a screwball. If he flew a mission and shot down less than two Japanese, he didn't put in a claim. Jay Welch says that his dad under-reported his kills by at least 4.
Blackburn writes a pretty good biography of Welch, and you quickly see that he was one of those rare, wild-eyed crazy pilots that had a lot more talent than sense. Welch died in an early production F-100. He was chummy with Yeager (whom Welch called "the best stick and rudder test pilot" he ever knew). Yeager warned Welch that the F-100 was too unstable in the yaw axis for a high Mach, high G pull-out test. Welch shrugged off the warning and was dead two hours later...
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When I was playing football in high school, I got clipped and checked to see if the ref threw the flag. When he didn't, I went over and asked why, it was such an obvious clip and he said, "sorry, didn't see it. no penalty."
Sure, Welch was the first but you know what? The ref didn't see it.
ack-ack
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I heard there's a myth bout a ME-163 breaking the barrier. Idk tho, no records
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It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight. Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier. So who broke it first? Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.
ack-ack
This is true. There are no records for XP-86 supersonic flights prior to November 13, 1947.
However, people have been sentenced to the electric chair based upon far less evidence than I can present that Welch was first.
We know the XP-86 was easily supersonic capable.
We know that when Welch repeated the exact same flight profiles just a few weeks later, they officially produced Mach 1.02 and Mach 1.04 respectively.
We know that Welch set out to break Mach 1 on October 1, 1947, if only for his personal satisfaction.
We know that there were many, reliable witnesses who heard the booms.
These are significant facts that cannot be ignored.
So, who was really first? Welch. No doubt about it in my mind. Who is officially first? Yeager, and they have test data to support it. Moreover, the XS-1 (later X-1) was capable of far greater speeds than just tweaking past Mach 1. The test program was slow and deliberate. If had not been so, Yeager may not have survived. The XS-1 had serious control issues to iron out first. The XP-86, with its "flying tail" slab elevators was considerably more controllable near Mach 1 than the XS-1 was during the latter's early flights. Once the XS-1 control problems were corrected, it was certainly far more speed capable than any F-86 Sabre.
Let's put this argument into perspective... In April of 1939, the specially designed and built Me 209 set a world closed course speed record of 469 mph. This record stood for 30 years, and was officially broken by Darryl Greenamyer's F8F-2 in 1969. Does anyone doubt that there were many single piston engine, prop driven aircraft that were faster than the Me 209? Of course not. The P-51H was nearly 20 mph faster in combat trim. Likewise, various other WWII fighters could fly faster. However, no one bothered to go after the official record until Darryl Greenamyer did. But, if we stick to the tiresome rule of "official", we have to ignore reality. Reality doesn't care about what is or isn't official.
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When I was playing football in high school, I got clipped and checked to see if the ref threw the flag. When he didn't, I went over and asked why, it was such an obvious clip and he said, "sorry, didn't see it. no penalty."
Sure, Welch was the first but you know what? The ref didn't see it.
ack-ack
I agree... Ask Miami and the Vikings about things not seen! ;)
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My Great Grandfather broke the sound barrier way before both of them. His nickname was Smelly Pete.
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Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic ;)) <S> tell me what you know.
Redtail
I heard somewhere that some Me262 pilot claimed to break it.