Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: milesobrian on October 23, 2010, 09:24:22 PM

Title: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 23, 2010, 09:24:22 PM
How about the 20mm cannon does that have the mine shells?

what is the ammo load out for the German 131 and cannon, the type and order of the ammo?
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Saxman on October 23, 2010, 10:39:31 PM
German cannon are "belted" with generic rounds that each have a charge averaged from the total destructive power of all the rounds together. IE: Historically your ammo is belted in a sequence of five rounds, three of which do 1pt of damage, one that does 2pts, and one doing 5pts. In game, each round instead does 2pts of damage.

The result is both good and bad. It means the rounds will all do more damage than the historically least destructive round, but at the same time is a disadvantage since you also lose the extra punch of the individual high-power rounds.

I THINK this applies to other weapons like the Browning M2. While historically the Deuce would be belted with varying mixes of ball and API depending on availability, theater (IIRC, API was more common in the Pacific due to the combustability of most Japanese aircraft) and preference (some squadrons in the PTO took it on themselves to belt a larger mix of API than was standard practice) I THINK our Browning does the average damage of X rounds of ball and Y rounds of API.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 12:01:28 AM
German cannon are "belted" with generic rounds that each have a charge averaged from the total destructive power of all the rounds together. IE: Historically your ammo is belted in a sequence of five rounds, three of which do 1pt of damage, one that does 2pts, and one doing 5pts. In game, each round instead does 2pts of damage.

The result is both good and bad. It means the rounds will all do more damage than the historically least destructive round, but at the same time is a disadvantage since you also lose the extra punch of the individual high-power rounds.

I THINK this applies to other weapons like the Browning M2. While historically the Deuce would be belted with varying mixes of ball and API depending on availability, theater (IIRC, API was more common in the Pacific due to the combustability of most Japanese aircraft) and preference (some squadrons in the PTO took it on themselves to belt a larger mix of API than was standard practice) I THINK our Browning does the average damage of X rounds of ball and Y rounds of API.

so what your saying is that in game the guns only have 1 bullet modeled (2 counting tracer, assuming they even modeled it differently) to an "average' damage figure...but does it imitate the ballistics of an ap round or does it simply explode on contact?  why not just give us three rounds ap api and he and for Luftwaffe Mine and then belt them accordingly....
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Saxman on October 24, 2010, 12:05:53 AM
Because it would require more coding and be more complicated. It HAS been asked for before (personally, I'd love a varied ball/API loadout for the US .50cal) but apparently there is not enough gain for the effort of modeling more types of rounds per gun.

As for the ballistics of what we have, you'd have to ask some of the Luftwaffe Experten on that. All I know is that there's been tests done that do suggest subtle differences in the ballistics between standard and tracer rounds.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: ozrocker on October 24, 2010, 06:52:00 AM
IDK WW2 Standards but in the 80's-90's we placed the tracer/whatever every 6th round for the M2 50cal.


                                                                                                  <S> Oz
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Saxman on October 24, 2010, 08:19:59 AM
I think in WW2 it was every fifth, however there was a lot of individual preference involved, as well.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: JunkyII on October 24, 2010, 08:46:33 AM
IDK WW2 Standards but in the 80's-90's we placed the tracer/whatever every 6th round for the M2 50cal.


                                                                                                  <S> Oz
The Mach Duece is just flat out a monster of a weapon, got a hard on the first time I shot it :D
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: JOACH1M on October 24, 2010, 11:04:36 AM
On what saxman said I would love to see An API round for American 50 cals!
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 02:30:35 PM
Because it would require more coding and be more complicated. It HAS been asked for before (personally, I'd love a varied ball/API loadout for the US .50cal) but apparently there is not enough gain for the effort of modeling more types of rounds per gun.

As for the ballistics of what we have, you'd have to ask some of the Luftwaffe Experten on that. All I know is that there's been tests done that do suggest subtle differences in the ballistics between standard and tracer rounds.

why wouldnt they do it ww2ol can.

Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Saxman on October 24, 2010, 02:56:36 PM
why wouldnt they do it ww2ol can.



This isn't WW2OL. :-P
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Karnak on October 24, 2010, 03:04:01 PM
why wouldnt they do it ww2ol can.


They could, and it may happen in the future, they just don't see a big advantage out of it.

The one thing I don't want to see is players allowing to set up their own belt sequences.  We don't need everybody and his uncle setting up completely non-historical belts of 100% Minengeschoß rounds.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Die Hard on October 24, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Nothing non-historical about belts of 100% Minengeschoß rounds. In the Luftwaffe ammunition loadout was the pilot's prerogative. 100% Minengeschoß was quite common for the MK 108 for instance.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Karnak on October 24, 2010, 03:47:54 PM
I've never seen anything that supports the MG151/20 ever carrying a full belt of Minengeschoß.  One in five rounds is what I understand was historical.

The MK108 is another story, and for all I know, AH is already 100% Minengeschoß rounds for the MK108.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 06:00:47 PM
This isn't WW2OL. :-P
THANK GOD that game is a total joke....the only thing it has going for it is its historical accuracy,and its so called "simulation grade" software....


and apparently ww2ol is now going to cost $17.99, while at the same time asking their player base for donations...not to mention their devs suck at their chosen profession...
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 06:02:19 PM
They could, and it may happen in the future, they just don't see a big advantage out of it.

The one thing I don't want to see is players allowing to set up their own belt sequences.  We don't need everybody and his uncle setting up completely non-historical belts of 100% Minengeschoß rounds.

i dont want it for an advantage i just want it in the name of being historically accurate....im not like you people always trying to find out new and possible ways to game the game....
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 06:27:05 PM
but my real question is bout the 13mm bullets being made as HE...this seems weird to me and makes me wonder how effective they were considering many other nations did not make their 50 cal have HE in them....
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Saxman on October 24, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
They could, and it may happen in the future, they just don't see a big advantage out of it.

The one thing I don't want to see is players allowing to set up their own belt sequences.  We don't need everybody and his uncle setting up completely non-historical belts of 100% Minengeschoß rounds.

I'd say have a selection of a variety of belt options in the hangar allowing a degree of customization, but with specific loads.
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: milesobrian on October 24, 2010, 07:01:02 PM
I'd say have a selection of a variety of belt options in the hangar allowing a degree of customization, but with specific loads.

+1 MODEL DIFFERENT AMMO AND AMMO LOADOUTS...


EVEN A CRAP game like ww2ol can manage this...you can even tell the type of round you are shooting when they hit something, an AP dosent expload and the game reflects this the HE  explodes when it hits ground or even after it travels a certain amount...
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Charge on October 25, 2010, 04:07:01 AM
"I've never seen anything that supports the MG151/20 ever carrying a full belt of Minengeschoß.  One in five rounds is what I understand was historical."

Well, the beltings that the pilots requested could be almost anything but the standard beltings listed in Galland's Schiessfibel from 1944 lists these: against bombers 1 Pz + 1 Brand + 1Mine, against all other targets, 1 Pz + 1 Brand + 3 Mine. The composition of tracers was up to pilots discretion. The 1+1+3 belting raises the hitting power of 151/20 roughtly to same level as that of Hisso, which we do not have in AH, AFAIK.

When the minengescoss was introduced it was mixed also with earlier and weaker HE which was obviously phased out of service by 1944. You can recognize the predecessor of MG151/20 the MGFF/M from suffix to be able to shoot also Mine rounds.

In WW2OL you can see the standard belting to consist one AP and probably 2 HE and 2 Mine when you fire five rounds and after 800-900 meters the self-destruct fuse of the HEs and Mines go off so four black puffs of smoke are visible (and if they explode near you they let out quite a bang!).

-C+
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Die Hard on October 25, 2010, 04:15:23 PM
but my real question is bout the 13mm bullets being made as HE...this seems weird to me and makes me wonder how effective they were considering many other nations did not make their 50 cal have HE in them....

Even if you're banned I'll answer the question: Most WWII .50 cal class machineguns used a chemical component in the ammunition. The USAAF/RAF and Soviets typically used incendiaries while the Germans and Italians used a combination of HE and incendiary.

Heres an Italian fighter shooting up a P-40 with its 12.7 mm Bredas... Followed by a nice montage pf P-47 gun camera footage in color:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4IUYA3nTuA&p=9D2502A1CBB8BEF1&playnext=1&index=52
Title: Re: Do the german mg 131s have HE rounds belted in?
Post by: Babalonian on October 26, 2010, 04:50:37 PM
IDK WW2 Standards but in the 80's-90's we placed the tracer/whatever every 6th round for the M2 50cal.


                                                                                                  <S> Oz


besides tracers being more expencive, check the specs, but I'd almost bet $5 that your circa 80-90s Mdeuce has a 10-20% higher rate of fire than the circa 30-40s models, justifying the stretch.