Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CAP1 on November 07, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
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but i will anyway.
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......
P-51 Mustang vs. P-38 Lightning?
Both planes changed the course of the war but you never hear stories about p-38's being used anywhere except the pacific and vice versa for p-51's in europe. What is the reason one plane was only used in one theatre and not the other?
* 3 years ago
and the best selected answer was.....
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
They didn't change the course of the war on the western front, but the P51 did contribute hugely to the destruction of the Luftwfaffe, both because there were so many of them and because it was an extremely good plane, especially the D.
P-38 were used on the western front, mostly in the Mediterranean area, the plane had structural problems that made it not really suited to the western front, though its firepower was deadly. It was however successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited with its long range and high altitude performance. It could not out-maneuver most Japanese fighters but it was faster and had a firepower that made mincemeat out of the lightly armoured Japanese planes.
The P51 was used mostly on the western front because that's where there was a great need for lots and lots of fighters to escort the bombers and replace the shorter legged P38 and P47, bringing down the losses among the US bomber flights and allowing them to go deeper in Germany. The first delivery of P51 on the Pacific front wasn't done until end 1944.
Amusing notes on those two planes, both names (Lightning and Mustang) came from the British who used the planes in real fights before the US did and gave them those names. They stuck.
The P51 was a British designed plane and nearly didn't go into production because, well, it was designed by Brits, not by Americans.
so......i thought the lightning was the first fighter to take the heavy bombers all the way to berlin and back? and i thought that even the p-47 with tanks made that trip before the mustang came along?
so lets get some of the history buffs in here......... :aok
one of the other things i had always thought(perhaps incorrectly) was that the "P" stood for "pursuit", meaning that its actual intended usage was to chase down enemy bombers, and destroy em....or if on escort duty, then to basically protect the friendly bombers by chasing away the enemy fighters, whereas the "F" designated fighters were more intended to fight it out with the enemy?
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P-47s with drop tanks could only make it to approximately Aachen, on the border.
The rest of those posts are alot of nonsense. The English tried out an export version of
the 38 which they did not like. The 51s were used for recon and tactical raids.
This is the first I've ever heard of structural problems in the 38s, they had heating difficulties
but that isn't really an airframe thing. It performed quite well in Europe as a ground attacker
after being replaced by Mustangs for long range escort. It was alot cheaper to build a single
engine 51 than a twin engined 38.
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Cap i was just reading some stuff on the net about the P38-F how it played a great ground support role, along with its fighting capabilities, thats kinda how i use the P38-J in the game, help GV's spot and keep the bad guys in the sir away
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To make your thread more interesting, 51's were used a ton in the Pacific theater in late 44 to assist in CAP for 29's going into Japan. They were not remotely close to being a European Theater-only aircraft. 457th, 458th and 462nd Squadrons of the 506th Fighter groups which were a part of the 7th Fighter Command.
For you skinning guys, this site will have photos and a full list of the 51 names and nose art shortly along with the serial numbers and pilot names.
For you scenario folks....their mission profiles are already up and running.
Changeup
http://www.506thfightergroup.org/index1.asp
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I think we need to have a Braunco vs. SAPPER duel........... :uhoh
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The P-51 was not a British designed aircraft. It was an American designed aircraft built to satisfy a British requirement for an aircraft superior to the P-40. North American was asked to produce the P-40 under license for the RAF. At that time, the P-40 was only aircraft that came reasonably close to the RAF's requirements for a day fighter. Dutch Kindleberger offered to build a better aircraft for the RAF using the same engine, in the same amount of time it would take for them to ramp P-40 production.
The early P-51s (Allison powered) were not spectacular aircraft. It wasn't until the Mustang airframe was merged with the Merlin engine that the P-51 became what it is now considered to be - one of the defining US aircraft of all time.
P-38s had compressibility problems, but no structural problems. Just a reminder - while America's top 2 aces both flew P-38s, most of the early US aces in the ETO and MTO did so in a P-38.
P-51s took over long range escort duties for one reason - they had longer legs. The P-38s and P-47s certainly had the ability to handle the 109s and 190s that were attacking the heavies, but they lacked the range.
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To make your thread more interesting, 51's were used a ton in the Pacific theater in late 44 to assist in CAP for 29's going into Japan. They were not remotely close to being a European Theater-only aircraft. 457th, 458th and 462nd Squadrons of the 506th Fighter groups which were a part of the 7th Fighter Command.
For you skinning guys, this site will have photos and a full list of the 51 names and nose art shortly along with the serial numbers and pilot names.
For you scenario folks....their mission profiles are already up and running.
Changeup
http://www.506thfightergroup.org/index1.asp
Also have the 15th and 21st FGs from the 7th who flew Mustangs to Japan. I'd love to make a 45th squadron plane from the 15th FG. I think their green stripe Mustangs were the best looking of the war.
Now to find an empty skin slot for the P51D..
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/p51-45fs.jpg)
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The P-51 was not a British designed aircraft. It was an American designed aircraft built to satisfy a British requirement for an aircraft superior to the P-40. North American was asked to produce the P-40 under license for the RAF. At that time, the P-40 was only aircraft that came reasonably close to the RAF's requirements for a day fighter. Dutch Kindleberger offered to build a better aircraft for the RAF using the same engine, in the same amount of time it would take for them to ramp P-40 production.
The early P-51s (Allison powered) were not spectacular aircraft. It wasn't until the Mustang airframe was merged with the Merlin engine that the P-51 became what it is now considered to be - one of the defining US aircraft of all time.
P-38s had compressibility problems, but no structural problems. Just a reminder - while America's top 2 aces both flew P-38s, most of the early US aces in the ETO and MTO did so in a P-38.
P-51s took over long range escort duties for one reason - they had longer legs. The P-38s and P-47s certainly had the ability to handle the 109s and 190s that were attacking the heavies, but they lacked the range.
i knew there were no structural problems.
i can't find anything on google yet, but i had read a book called "combat crew" by john comer. he was a top turret gunner on a 17 over euorpe, and had mentioned that they were glad to see p-38's as they now knew they'd have cover all the way in and out of germany.
he also noted that the jug and pony drivers would fly solo after a con, whilst the lightning drivers tended to work in pairs.
if i can't find it on the net, i'll find the passages i'm looking for in the book, and photo them.......
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If you go to the 51 site...check out the engine start-up sounds for the 51, 47 and B-17....holy cow. Ranger needs to get his hands on that!
Changeup
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Also have the 15th and 21st FGs from the 7th who flew Mustangs to Japan. I'd love to make a 45th squadron plane from the 15th FG. I think their green stripe Mustangs were looking of the war.
Now to find an empty skin slot for the P51D..
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/p51-45fs.jpg)
what do you mean an "empty skin slot"?
are there limited numbers of skins that are allowed in game?
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what do you mean an "empty skin slot"?
are there limited numbers of skins that are allowed in game?
There can be a maximum of 15 skins per plane. The P-51D is very full.
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There can be a maximum of 15 skins per plane. The P-51D is very full.
that sucks.....and i like the one in the pic you posted
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Hooray for myths and misinformation!!1!
:banana:
They're everywhere.....
wrongway
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even as a non-expert, I read taht whol article as a line of crap. I guess people are just lazy about doing real historical work.
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The early P-51s (Allison powered) were not spectacular aircraft. It wasn't until the Mustang airframe was merged with the Merlin engine that the P-51 became what it is now considered to be - one of the defining US aircraft of all time.
built by the Brits ....merlin ...says it all
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even as a non-expert, I read taht whol article as a line of crap. I guess people are just lazy about doing real historical work.
yea i know.......but i figured/hoped it could ignite a good fun conversation.
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but i will anyway.
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......
Why would u do that :lol
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Why would u do that :lol
oohh....i dunno? :noid :D
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never happen here.... Somebody with too many posts will troll it and make it an angry thread....................... ........... :D
yea i know.......but i figured/hoped it could ignite a good fun conversation.
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There can be a maximum of 15 skins per plane. The P-51D is very full.
Why just 15 ?
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Why just 15 ?
Probably because 2^4=16, and 15+default skin=16 total.
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built by the Brits ....merlin ...says it all
Its an engine, not an airframe. Don't be takin' credit for the P-51. Put an Allison engine in the Spitfire and you have an average airframe.
:noid
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why would they
but a merlin saved it from the knackers yard
its da truth
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but i will anyway.
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......
P-51 Mustang vs. P-38 Lightning?
Both planes changed the course of the war but you never hear stories about p-38's being used anywhere except the pacific and vice versa for p-51's in europe. What is the reason one plane was only used in one theatre and not the other?
* 3 years ago
and the best selected answer was.....
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
They didn't change the course of the war on the western front, but the P51 did contribute hugely to the destruction of the Luftwfaffe, both because there were so many of them and because it was an extremely good plane, especially the D.
P-38 were used on the western front, mostly in the Mediterranean area, the plane had structural problems that made it not really suited to the western front, though its firepower was deadly. It was however successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited with its long range and high altitude performance. It could not out-maneuver most Japanese fighters but it was faster and had a firepower that made mincemeat out of the lightly armoured Japanese planes.
The P51 was used mostly on the western front because that's where there was a great need for lots and lots of fighters to escort the bombers and replace the shorter legged P38 and P47, bringing down the losses among the US bomber flights and allowing them to go deeper in Germany. The first delivery of P51 on the Pacific front wasn't done until end 1944.
Amusing notes on those two planes, both names (Lightning and Mustang) came from the British who used the planes in real fights before the US did and gave them those names. They stuck.
The P51 was a British designed plane and nearly didn't go into production because, well, it was designed by Brits, not by Americans.
so......i thought the lightning was the first fighter to take the heavy bombers all the way to berlin and back? and i thought that even the p-47 with tanks made that trip before the mustang came along?
so lets get some of the history buffs in here......... :aok
one of the other things i had always thought(perhaps incorrectly) was that the "P" stood for "pursuit", meaning that its actual intended usage was to chase down enemy bombers, and destroy em....or if on escort duty, then to basically protect the friendly bombers by chasing away the enemy fighters, whereas the "F" designated fighters were more intended to fight it out with the enemy?
P does stand for Pursuit, the F wasn't adopted until after the war when former USAAF planes became USAF F-51, F-47 etc. by Korea. Apparently the Navy adopted the F designation earlier.
The early ground attack versions of the mustang were the North American A-36s with the allison engine and dive brakes fitted~wiki it
Here is a good chart indicating escort ranges for allied fighters. Note that the P-47 with drop tank is for pre D-15 models with a single center line drop tank and less internal fuel. By 1944 wing hard points had been fitted to allow for up to 3 drop tanks, internal fuel increased, and obviously after Normandy 9th AF 47's were some of the first squadrons to be based in France advancing rapidly with the front lines as soon as new airfields were built or captured. Range became less and less of a factor. Read hell Hawks by Bob Dorr. Late model D's had the range to go deep into Germany on escort missions but by that time only the 56th FG was still flying 47's in that roll out of England.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/ranges.jpg)
Most 8th AF fter groups were converted to "spam cans" P-51s which came on line in huge numbers from N Americans plants in CA and TX. They stopped building B-25s to produce more 51's. By that time though the Luftwaffe had been beat down on the Eastern front and had lost many of their best pilots to 47s and bomber defensive gunners. 51's came in arguable after air supremacy had been achieved by predominant by 47's to steal the show. 8th AF raids on synthetic fuel, Russian advances on eastern fuel supplies and 9th AF 47s jabo raids on transportation deprived the Luftwaffe and the rest of the war industry of critical fuel. Read Masters of the Air for 8th AF strategic bombing results. 47's were flying escort out of Italy/Corsica as well during the same period.
A fighter pilot once said you had your picture taken for your girl in a P-51, If you wanted to get back home alive you flew a P-47.
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but i will anyway.
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47
Here is one: how Neel Kearby whooped a 38 in a mock dogfight :D
Neel Kearby hopped down from the wing of his new P-47 Thunderbolt to exchange handshakes with a slightly-humbled P-38 group commander.
"Congratulations Kearby," Colonel Prentice announced good naturedly. "You shot me down in flames more than once." Then, looking around at the group of fellow pilots who had witnessed the mock-combat over Amberley he announced, "I still think the P-38 is the best fighter we've got, but boys, don't sell the 'Jug' short!"
http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/11_kearby.html
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was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47
Must not get drawn into this. Think of something else....
- oldman
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Must not get drawn into this. Think of something else....
- oldman
Agreed :)
A lot more to the 38 in the ETO bit including rivalries between factions in the USAAF. Sad part is the bomber crews paid for this as the 38s were sent to the MTO when they could have gone the distance with the bombers a lot earlier then they did.
That the Jug was sent to the ETO unable to carry a DT says a lot about which guys in the USAAF had the power at the time and it wasn't the fighter guys. Again a lot of bomber crews died before the bomber purists realized they couldn't do it without fighter escort.
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Agreed :)
A lot more to the 38 in the ETO bit including rivalries between factions in the USAAF. Sad part is the bomber crews paid for this as the 38s were sent to the MTO when they could have gone the distance with the bombers a lot earlier then they did.
That the Jug was sent to the ETO unable to carry a DT says a lot about which guys in the USAAF had the power at the time and it wasn't the fighter guys. Again a lot of bomber crews died before the bomber purists realized they couldn't do it without fighter escort.
wait? there was politics involved in this too? and i'm not trying to be sarcastic.......but that's what it sounds like.....
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If you go to the 51 site...check out the engine start-up sounds for the 51, 47 and B-17....holy cow. Ranger needs to get his hands on that!
Changeup
+1 :aok
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even as a non-expert, I read taht whol article as a line of crap. I guess people are just lazy about doing real historical work.
I wouldn't use lazy in particular, more of a 'I already know everything there is to know about everything that ever happened in WWII and I know every minute detail about every particular notable aircraft of the war too', kind of thing. Phew, that was a mouthful!
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I'm just amazed that our British friends are now taking credit for the success of the Mustang, as if they're not happy having the damned Spitfire.
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wait? there was politics involved in this too? and i'm not trying to be sarcastic.......but that's what it sounds like.....
Bomber Doctrine vs Fighter. Appropriations are what they are. The Fortress and Liberator were sold as being able to go it alone without escort. Nothing like a war to prove your point. Problem was it had to be done with real lives and they were wrong. 38s got sent to the MTO. Think about that there were escorts in England from the beginning that could have gone with the bombers. Instead they got sent to the MTO.
Check on the history of the Jug in the ETO. They were make shifting DTs, even though birds like the P38, P39 and P40 all had DTs prior to this. By mid 44 the Jugs were carrying 3 DTs and going just about anywhere. Mustangs initially didn't have fuselage tanks and only 75 gallon DTs. This was later changed. The first Jugs in the ETO had no wing pylons or provisions for DTs. Makes you wonder how no one noticed how the LW faired in the B of B without escort, or the RAF early in the war.
The politics were always there. Look at the egos that battled among the ground commanders in the ETO. Leaders have their own agendas and hate having to admit their way might not be the best.
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Bomber Doctrine vs Fighter. Appropriations are what they are. The Fortress and Liberator were sold as being able to go it alone without escort. Nothing like a war to prove your point. Problem was it had to be done with real lives and they were wrong. 38s got sent to the MTO. Think about that there were escorts in England from the beginning that could have gone with the bombers. Instead they got sent to the MTO.
Check on the history of the Jug in the ETO. They were make shifting DTs, even though birds like the P38, P39 and P40 all had DTs prior to this. By mid 44 the Jugs were carrying 3 DTs and going just about anywhere. Mustangs initially didn't have fuselage tanks and only 75 gallon DTs. This was later changed. The first Jugs in the ETO had no wing pylons or provisions for DTs. Makes you wonder how no one noticed how the LW faired in the B of B without escort, or the RAF early in the war.
The politics were always there. Look at the egos that battled among the ground commanders in the ETO. Leaders have their own agendas and hate having to admit their way might not be the best.
It continued after the war as well . The entire century series of Fighters were not really fighters. Anymore then a F117 was . It took the fighter mafia to make things right . There is a gap from the F-86 to the F-16 between AC that can be considered true fighters . Look at the F-4 fiasco . Only the E model was equipped with an internal gun !!
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If you go to the 51 site...check out the engine start-up sounds for the 51, 47 and B-17....holy cow. Ranger needs to get his hands on that!
Changeup
i use mitsu's soundpack and a little bit of rangers as well and im not sure which one has em but they are already in my engine startup sounds
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i use mitsu's soundpack and a little bit of rangers as well and im not sure which one has em but they are already in my engine startup sounds
Me too but these sound different
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Also have the 15th and 21st FGs from the 7th who flew Mustangs to Japan. I'd love to make a 45th squadron plane from the 15th FG. I think their green stripe Mustangs were the best looking of the war.
Now to find an empty skin slot for the P51D..
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/p51-45fs.jpg)
If this skin was added i sure would fly it, looks pretty sweet. Please skinners??? :pray
<S> SWkiljoy :rock
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Here is one: how Neel Kearby whooped a 38 in a mock dogfight :D
Neel Kearby hopped down from the wing of his new P-47 Thunderbolt to exchange handshakes with a slightly-humbled P-38 group commander.
"Congratulations Kearby," Colonel Prentice announced good naturedly. "You shot me down in flames more than once." Then, looking around at the group of fellow pilots who had witnessed the mock-combat over Amberley he announced, "I still think the P-38 is the best fighter we've got, but boys, don't sell the 'Jug' short!"
http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/11_kearby.html
P47 dives from above. LOL
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P-38s had compressibility problems, but no structural problems. Just a reminder - while America's top 2 aces both flew P-38s, most of the early US aces in the ETO and MTO did so in a P-38.
Also worthy to note that P-38 pilots made up the majority of USAAF aces in the PTO with over 100 aces.
ack-ack
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Also worthy to note that P-38 pilots made up the majority of USAAF aces in the PTO with over 100 aces.
ack-ack
Hmmm...
Easy mode plane?
:bolt:
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but i will anyway.
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......
In that P-47 nerd of the month club, I posted a comparison report between a P-38F and a P-47C and the conclusion of the P-47C pilot was that he preferred the P-38F over the P-47C. :devil
ack-ack
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wait? there was politics involved in this too? and i'm not trying to be sarcastic.......but that's what it sounds like.....
The 8th AF was commanded by officers with a bomber's mentality and a lot of their decisions was based on this mentality. Also note, it was only the 8th AF that felt the P-38 wasn't suitable as a first line fighter.
ack-ack
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P38=Kelly Johnson. Enough said.
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SR-71 = Kelly Johnson....don't even bother trying...
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Kelli Johnson - nuff said.
(http://www.foggyhollow.com/images/2009/Kelli%20Johnson.jpg)
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The P-51 was not a British designed aircraft. It was an American designed aircraft built to satisfy a British requirement for an aircraft superior to the P-40. North American was asked to produce the P-40 under license for the RAF. At that time, the P-40 was only aircraft that came reasonably close to the RAF's requirements for a day fighter. Dutch Kindleberger offered to build a better aircraft for the RAF using the same engine, in the same amount of time it would take for them to ramp P-40 production.
The early P-51s (Allison powered) were not spectacular aircraft. It wasn't until the Mustang airframe was merged with the Merlin engine that the P-51 became what it is now considered to be - one of the defining US aircraft of all time.
P-38s had compressibility problems, but no structural problems. Just a reminder - while America's top 2 aces both flew P-38s, most of the early US aces in the ETO and MTO did so in a P-38.
P-51s took over long range escort duties for one reason - they had longer legs. The P-38s and P-47s certainly had the ability to handle the 109s and 190s that were attacking the heavies, but they lacked the range.
P-38's had plenty of range and the USAAF botched it from escorting Bombers. It was about as close to criminal negligence as you can get, as those guys would have loved to have had the Lightning escort their craft. Also, more than 100 of the "PTO Aces" did so in the Lightning, it wasn't just the Hellcat and Corsair over there.
"While in the pilot's lounge at Santa Maria Air Base, California, I overheard three P-38 students scorning their airplane. They were saying the P-38 would not operate above 25,000 ft, or if it would, their instructor would not take them. I found out their Instructor's name and cleared a flight with the students. My briefing was short and to the point: "We're going to take this four-ship formation up and we will continue to climb until one of you say 'Uncle'." With that we took off, at 42,800 ft indicated on the altimeter, I heard a garbled "uncle" being transmitted by a throat mike. One hundred percent oxygen under pressure made it difficult to speak at high altitude. The formation was climbing at 500ft per minute when the flight was terminated. That one flight convinced them that the P-38 was a high altitude aircraft."
Lt. Frank Shearin Jr, 343rd FG, Aleutians, 1943.
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SR-71 = Kelly Johnson....don't even bother trying...
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/Kelly_Johnson.jpg)
The Master
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Guys, you got this all wrong...
P47 = heavy bomber
P38 = light bomber
P51 = scrap salvage
;)