Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: MADe on November 11, 2010, 12:45:27 PM
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Hey Skuzzy,
Whats the current line of thought, at AH control, on the use or non-use of V-Sync in AH game video settings? Especially with the latest hardware advances.
Using V-sync will choke a high end system, with monitor at 60MHz, bascically negating high end hardware.
What about the modern LCD monitors that use a 250MHz refresh rate, v-sync here would gve a FPS of 250, no?
Just inquizative is all.
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Vertical sync should be enabled in the game. The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer.
It does not hamper high performance hardware. Quite the opposite. Frame rates that float around are a problem. No matter what you believe, you cannot see more than the vertical refresh rate the monitor will deliver. In other words; When you see 300+FPS in the information display of the game, your monitor is STILL only allowing 60FPS to be displayed.
With that, you never know what frame you are actually seeing, when you have vertical sync disabled. The same frame is being repainted over and over again, then suddenly, in the middle of a frame, the image shifts causing tearing due to data over-writing the frame buffer.
There are just so many things that can go wrong with vertical sync disabled, from rubber bullets to screen tearing, to jerky motion, it is silly to consider disabling it. Your monitor cannot display anything faster than its vertical sync rate will allow.
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Vertical sync should be enabled in the game. The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer.
It does not hamper high performance hardware. Quite the opposite. Frame rates that float around are a problem. No matter what you believe, you cannot see more than the vertical refresh rate the monitor will deliver. In other words; When you see 300+FPS in the information display of the game, your monitor is STILL only allowing 60FPS to be displayed.
With that, you never know what frame you are actually seeing, when you have vertical sync disabled. The same frame is being repainted over and over again, then suddenly, in the middle of a frame, the image shifts causing tearing due to data over-writing the frame buffer.
There are just so many things that can go wrong with vertical sync disabled, from rubber bullets to screen tearing, to jerky motion, it is silly to consider disabling it. Your monitor cannot display anything faster than its vertical sync rate will allow.
This should be stickied.
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Hmmm,
3DMark 06, when it runs it does not use V-sync. If I choose to force V-sync on for benchmark, I can. The benchmark score is cut by almost 40% with V-sync used.
Now why would bench marking software disable V-sync if it is so valuable? Their purpose is to mimic high end game environment, no?
I have been experimenting and I find my screen does not show any of the side affects of non v-sync use. I realize that having my puter running at a higher frame rate offers no game advantage but I see no reason to force 60fps when my puter is set to run fast and can handle a higher frame rate.
What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.
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Everybody talks about 60 fps because most people have monitors with max refrsh rate of 60. If yours. An handle 120 then set it to 120 assuming your system can handle it. But if i understand right gpus can send a gazillion frames but the minitor will only display its refresh rate (60 in mine) and if it doesnt finish displaying a frame before it gets the next then it will not finish it and tearing will appear.
Semp
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Hmmm,
3DMark 06, when it runs it does not use V-sync. If I choose to force V-sync on for benchmark, I can. The benchmark score is cut by almost 40% with V-sync used.
Now why would bench marking software disable V-sync if it is so valuable? Their purpose is to mimic high end game environment, no?
I have been experimenting and I find my screen does not show any of the side affects of non v-sync use. I realize that having my puter running at a higher frame rate offers no game advantage but I see no reason to force 60fps when my puter is set to run fast and can handle a higher frame rate.
What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.
Why does 3DMark06 disable v-sync..... hmmmm lets read Skuzzy first line again....
"Vertical sync should be enabled in the game. The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer."
Imagine that! A test program disabling v-sync to test the graphics system. :rolleyes:
You ASK for his opinion, then you complain about his answer because it's not the one you wanted to hear. Can't please everyone I guess.
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It's like this... let's take an uber l33t video card that can put out 300fps and pair it to a monitor which can only put out 60fps.
Turn V-sync on, the video card only puts out 60fps.
Turn V-sync off, the video card puts out 300 fps, but the monitor can only display 60fps, so that extra 240 fps that is generated by the video card just go *poof*... wasted energy... wasted processing power... wasted effort. On top of that, sometimes those 240 extra fps can 'bleed over' onto the 60 that actually get shown which can cause problems. So why WOULDN'T you want to turn Vsync on? There is nothing to gain by leaving V-sync off because you're still limited by your monitor.
Got an UBER FAST 240hz monitor? Leaving V-sync on will then allow the video card to output up to 240 fps. V-sync doesn't limit it to 60fps, it limits it to the monitor's speed. 60fps is given as an example here because 90% of the 'affordable' monitors that we use only do 60fps. If your monitor can handle more, then more power to you! Chances are that your eyes/mind aren't going to be able to see a difference between 60fps and anything higher though. There are other reasons to have a 120hz and/or 240hz monitor than for UBER FAST FPS in games.
Download and read my ACES HIGH GRAPHICS GUIDE (http://www.lca.ympsa.com/ahgfxguide.pdf). You might learn something.
Want to test what the video card is capable of? Turn Vsync OFF. This is why benchmarking software does that, because they test what the video card is capable of by measuring FPS under different circumstance. It can't get a valid reading if it is limited to 60fps. Then you can get an accurate reading of what your video card is capable of. You can turn on more eye-candy and increase more settings until your frame rate stays just above 60 (assuming this is your monitor's limit).. then you can get an idea of how much stuff you can turn on before you start seeing performance issues... then turn Vsync back on and you're good to go.
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Main thing is not very high frame rates, stable frame rate is important :old:
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Main thing is not very high frame rates, stable frame rate is important :old:
Same with the network connections. A stable dial-up connection is better than a cable connection that is all over the place.
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Why does 3DMark06 disable v-sync..... hmmmm lets read Skuzzy first line again....
"Vertical sync should be enabled in the game. The only time you would disable it would be if you want to test your computer."
Imagine that! A test program disabling v-sync to test the graphics system. :rolleyes:
You ASK for his opinion, then you complain about his answer because it's not the one you wanted to hear. Can't please everyone I guess.
But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
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But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
Maybe so, but as soon as Skuzzy sees this he's going to tell you that the question has already been correctly answered.
What about the monitors with higher refresh rates? Sony has 250MHz monitors, using V-sync there should give you 250FPS, if you are using v-sync as it was designed.
I haven't heard of such a monitor, but if it exists, then yes, that would be correct, assuming your video card was up to the task.
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Made not sure what yiur question is because you yourself answered your own questions.
Vsync on will have the limit refresh rate of whatever your monitor can handle. Be it 60 or 250. But as skuzzy said having it off wont give you more than it can handle. Only tells you how many frames are being produced but the monitor will only display its refresh rate. Be it 60 or 250.
Like on my system with vsync off my system. Will produce about 300 fps. But my monitor will only display 60, its refresh rate. If i had a monitor that could display 250 then only 250 would be displayed. Even if the gpu says 300. The other 50 the monitor would not display properly causing tearing.
But i bet you have never seen tearing and that is where it gets confusing because i am. With vsync off i never see anything weird, except for rubber bullets.
Semp
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But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
If your trying to have a "private" discussion perhaps you should try email. By posting on an open board you'll get all kinds of answers from all kinds of people.
My post was only pointing out that you had already got the answer. Rephrasing the question isn't going to change the answer. Perhaps you asked the wrong question?
oh and by the way, you have "paid" to play the game, the boards are free. :aok
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But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
Then you never should have started this thread and instead used the Personal Message function of the BBS. But Skuzzy answered your questions with a very thorough and accurate post.
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But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
Maybe you shouldn't dismiss the answers that were given to you out of hand just because you don't agree with them despite them being correct.
ack-ack
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A little tidbit about 3DMark 06, it's more of a "marketing tool" then a true benchmark as both AMD and Nvidia will tweak their drivers to give a higher "artificial" score than what a person would really get.
The most accurate benchmarks are those that come included with the game as these benchmarks are used to determine if your hardware is capable of running the game. All 3DMark does is give ATI and Nvidia another artificial marketing selling point for their video cards.
ack-ack
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thats why its called benchmarketing. :neener: :neener: :neener: not only on GPU's, but also on CPU's. (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/12/2341240/Intel-Caught-Cheating-In-3DMark-Benchmark)
but you are exactly on target ak, there is no substitute for the actual software/workload.
hopefully we get a standardized AH2 benchmark so that we can do consistent hardware comparisons.
but i'd rather get a Ki-21, Ki-27 & Ki-43 instead before that, for an AVG-scenario!
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A little tidbit about 3DMark 06, it's more of a "marketing tool" then a true benchmark as both AMD and Nvidia will tweak their drivers to give a higher "artificial" score than what a person would really get.
The most accurate benchmarks are those that come included with the game as these benchmarks are used to determine if your hardware is capable of running the game. All 3DMark does is give ATI and Nvidia another artificial marketing selling point for their video cards.
ack-ack
This kind of reminds me of cars. Their computers are programmed to recognize when they are being driven by the EPA for emissions certifications so they can run real clean regardless of performance. There is a very specific 'drive cycle' that is used for EPA testing (The IM240 drive cycle that some states use for Emissions testing is an abbreviated version of that). This can vary greatly from real life performance.
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First off,
I felt I was given the mere stock answer, so I pushed for more.
Second,
I will not accept chastizement because, I WILL NOT accept chastizment. Not for this anyways.
Thirdly,
I do have a basic understanding, already. But there ain't nuthin wrong wit get'in som-ta-others ide'ers. Yes!
So I ask questions.
Educated in America and still learning.
SONY Bravia XML 52" has a MHz refresh of 250MHz. The pic is sweet.
thanx to those that gave info in post
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Made that monitor will display 250 fps, assuming your system can handle that many, with vsync on.
With vsync off system may show a higher fps, but the monitor will only display 250 max.
Semp
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SONY Bravia XML 52" has a MHz refresh of 250MHz. The pic is sweet.
Ok I didn't correct you the first time, because I knew what you meant, but you keep doing it so...
The refresh rate would be 250 Hz, not 250 MEGA Hz. And I would hazard a guess that they use some trickery to achieve that 250Hz figure, and that its not comparable to a true computer monitor refresh rate. (But I don't know that for a fact.)
I highly recommend you educate yourself a bit more. For starters read this: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226 , particularly the parts on Response Time and Input Lag. The thread is getting a little long in the tooth, but still is a good starting place to understand how LCD computer monitors work.
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One more thing, if you can stand the arguing, this is an OK thread on the potential of 120Hz monitors that are just starting to come out over 60Hz: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2120265
I'm still very skeptical that your 250Hz television will do anything close to that hooked up to a computer.
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If your trying to have a "private" discussion perhaps you should try email. By posting on an open board you'll get all kinds of answers from all kinds of people.
My post was only pointing out that you had already got the answer. Rephrasing the question isn't going to change the answer. Perhaps you asked the wrong question?
oh and by the way, you have "paid" to play the game, the boards are free. :aok
x 2
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There are just so many things that can go wrong with vertical sync disabled, from rubber bullets to screen tearing, to jerky motion, it is silly to consider disabling it. Your monitor cannot display anything faster than its vertical sync rate will allow.
Believe it not skuzzy I have to turn vsync off with my setup (3D Stereoscopic headset with dual OLED displays).
If I don't I get screen tearing and the jerkies, especially with the head tracking. Don't ask me why...
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First off,
I felt I was given the mere stock answer, so I pushed for more.
If you still want to push for more, then try doing so via EMAIL! Don't post something on the boards and then throw a fit when others chime in.
Second,
I will not accept chastizement because, I WILL NOT accept chastizment. Not for this anyways.
You will accept anything we want to give you because you have NO POWER to delete or change our posts. Stop being so full of yourself!
Thirdly,
I do have a basic understanding, already. But there ain't nuthin wrong wit get'in som-ta-others ide'ers. Yes!
So I ask questions.
Educated in America and still learning.
Still learning, yes. Less dense, no.
SONY Bravia XML 52" has a MHz refresh of 250MHz. The pic is sweet.
I just checked its specs.. it's 240 not 250. It's also Hz, NOT MHz. One Hz (Hertz) is ONE CYCLE PER SECOND. A display that is 240Hz is able to show 240 images per second, OR 240FPS. Have you read my video settings guide (http://www.lca.ympsa.com/ahgfxguide.pdf)?
Your eyes/brain can NOT distinguish the difference between 60FPS and more. Some people claim to be able to and maybe some can, but really once you hit 100FPS really it's all the same. So why does a 120Hz TV have a smoother picture than a 60Hz TV? BECAUSE TELEVISION/MOVIES IN THE U.S. ARE BROADCAST AT ONLY 24Hz! That's right! 24Hz... or 24FPS.. however you want to word it! The reason a 120Hz display looks smoother is because it is! Translating 24FPS for a 60Hz display results in showing one frame three times... then showing the next frame twice... then showing the next frame three times... then showing the next frame twice. This results in a little bit of choppiness with every other frame being shown a slightly longer time than the next.
With a 120Hz display, a frame is shown five times... then the next five times... then the next five times... then the next five times. Since every frame lasts the same amount of time, it looks much smoother.
So then you might ask.. WHAT IS THE POINT OF A 240Hz display? Well I'm glad you asked. For the most part it's simply a marketing gimmick. For regular television/movies you would not be able to distinguish a difference between it an a 120Hz display, as it is really only showing 24FPS anyway (it's just each frame is repeated TEN times on a 240Hz display). The ONLY POINT to using a 240Hz display would be for 3D. PERIOD. With 3D, each eye is shown every other frame so with a 240Hz display with active 3D glasses, each eye would see the display as a 120Hz display.
For use as a gaming display, a 240Hz monitor will show NO IMPROVEMENT over a 120Hz monitor, and a 120Hz monitor would show LITTLE IF ANY IMPROVEMENT over a 60Hz monitor.
thanx to those that gave info in post
Vulcan, no body ever said that you would FOR SURE have issues running VSync OFF, we're just saying that the possibility exists, and since there is nothing to gain by doing so then why take that chance?
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I'm wondering if Vulcan has to run vsync off because his set up displays two separate images simultaneously. :headscratch:
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I'm wondering if Vulcan has to run vsync off because his set up displays two separate images simultaneously. :headscratch:
Yes I seem to recall hearing about SLI forcing Vsync to be turned off. That might apply with multiple displays as well <shrug> If that is the case then you have no option obviously.
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MADe,
Be careful when you are assuming a 240Hz tv can actually do 240Hz refresh rate from a video signal. MOST of the time, this just isn't true.
Most TV manufacturers are advertising Hz rates of 120, or 240Hz for LCD and 600Hz for Plasma, but what they don't tell you is, that's what they support for OUTPUT. INPUT (as in, the signal you're sending to the TV) is most often still limited to only 60Hz. So even if you're using a 240Hz Bravia TV, your refresh rate is still a maximum of 60Hz.
So why would TV manufacturers do this?
There's a few reasons.
#1. Marketing. 240 is bigger than 60, so looks better on a spec sheet.
#2. Enhancement features. Today's TVs attempt to "enhance" what you are actually seeing. For instance, because of the way LCDs typically work, if you are watching a fast paced sport, you'd used to see an "afterimage" which would make the game look kinda blurry during heavy action. By increasing the Hz of the TV, and loading it with certain image enhancers, that "afterimage" is reduced dramatically, and can make things look very sharp, even with a lot of motion going on.
There's other reasons too, but I'm not going to go into a monster AV post.
So here's what happens when you turn off V-Sync.... you send signal faster to the tv/monitor, than the tv/monitor can handle. It attempts to keep up by displaying things as quickly as it can (usually 60Hz in the case of LCD), but since a computer (and console)'s framerate can fluctuate, what you wind up with is the screen starting to display 1 frame of animation, and finishing by displaying a 2nd, or even a 3rd one, making the picture look weird.
Stick with V-Sync on.
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I'm wondering if Vulcan has to run vsync off because his set up displays two separate images simultaneously. :headscratch:
could be something to with the Stereo 3D Driver, with sync on if I'm looking around I get huge tears across the screen and occasional wierd pauses.
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But Out,
I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
I answered your question. I did not give you a "stock" answer. I was very specific. Others re-affirmed the answer. If you want a private discussion with me, then email me or PM me, but putting it on a public bulletin board immediately allows anyone to respond to it.
If you want to know more, then you might listen to what the others are saying. If the information is incorrect, I will say something.
If your monitor claims a 240Hz refresh rate, then you either have an NVidia card, with the driver bug that does not deal with refresh rates higher than 120Hz, or you have not loaded the INF file for the monitor you are using, or the video control panel has been specifically set to 60Hz and you need to manually change it to 240Hz.
Right now, there is no such thing as a true 240Hz monitor, from anyone. It really is a 120Hz refresh rate that has some tech applied to it to give it a pseudo doubling of the refresh rate.
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Someone may have allready said this. If so forgive me.
But I have been playing with EVGA precision, and I noticed that with v-sync not enabled the graphics card works alot harder. Also Gpu temps were alot higher on a GTX 470 that is already a hot card.
I would not want to run v-sync disabled for a long period of time on my computer in any game.
Oh, I did see the tearing in the screen also. Had graphics settings all maxed, this may have an effect on the amount of tearing that occurs. Didn't test it any other way.
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Right now, there is no such thing as a true 240Hz monitor, from anyone. It really is a 120Hz refresh rate that has some tech applied to it to give it a pseudo doubling of the refresh rate.
and iirc the brain perceives motion at a minimum of 17fps, and frames at a maximum of around 110fps. ie anything over 110fps is not going to look better (which is why 100hz is the new magic number for TVs).
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and iirc the brain perceives motion at a minimum of 17fps, and frames at a maximum of around 110fps. ie anything over 110fps is not going to look better (which is why 100hz is the new magic number for TVs).
You know, I often wonder about that exact thing. For example, the other night I had my bedside fan turned on and while looking at it, it appeared that the fan blades were slowly rotating backwards. One can also notice that same kind of phenomenon sometimes when watching a car's wheels spin at certain speeds.. they can appear to spot rotating altogether or even rotate backwards.
Now, AFAIK the only way this can happen is if the "FPS" that the human mind perceives is in-sync (or slightly out of sync) with the RPM of the rotating object. For example: A fan rotating at a rate of 6000rpm (100rps) being captured by a camera recording at 100FPS would appear to be stationary. If it were rotating at a speed of 99rps the it would appear to be going slightly backwards! If the fan has 3 blades it can actually be spinning at one third of the speed to get the same effect!
Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives. There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right? Perhaps this number varies from person to person.
Maybe I'll do some research...
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You know, I often wonder about that exact thing. For example, the other night I had my bedside fan turned on and while looking at it, it appeared that the fan blades were slowly rotating backwards. One can also notice that same kind of phenomenon sometimes when watching a car's wheels spin at certain speeds.. they can appear to spot rotating altogether or even rotate backwards.
Now, AFAIK the only way this can happen is if the "FPS" that the human mind perceives is in-sync (or slightly out of sync) with the RPM of the rotating object. For example: A fan rotating at a rate of 6000rpm (100rps) being captured by a camera recording at 100FPS would appear to be stationary. If it were rotating at a speed of 99rps the it would appear to be going slightly backwards! If the fan has 3 blades it can actually be spinning at one third of the speed to get the same effect!
Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives. There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right? Perhaps this number varies from person to person.
Maybe I'll do some research...
I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60hz lights. Just guessing mind you.
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I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60Hz lights. Just guessing mind you.
You're absolutely right. In the good old days before CD's but after the invention of electric light we had those magnificent engravered vinyl discs. The digital era brought us record players with speed controlled by a thing called Quartz Lock, but until that every good record player had a series of dots in the edge of the turntable, accompanied by a pot for adjusting the turning speed. In the market there was also cardboard disks having similar dotting. The idea was to synchronize the electric 50 or 60 Hz light with the dots, so the certain row of the would seem to stand still, thus calibrating the rotating speed. Some record players even had a small lamp illuminating the turntable's edge.
In the case of the fan the blades represent the dots. When they seem to rotate backwards, your eyes are being fooled by identical blades: The light goes out 50 or 60 times in a second and during every blackout another blade is coming to your point of view. It may seem that the very blade you were looking at would be moving backwards, while in fact you see another blade almost reaching the position where you last saw a blade.
The same effect can also be seen in movies, especially Westerns: Wagon wheels often seem to rotate backwards. The film moves 24 screens a second and if the wagon wheel rotates slightly faster, the illusion appears.
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Vulcan, no body ever said that you would FOR SURE have issues running VSync OFF, we're just saying that the possibility exists, and since there is nothing to gain by doing so then why take that chance?
You are truly a piece of work. DA
May you end up in life where you started, behind the eight ball.
I try to gain some knowledge and get mostly drivel and non-sense bully crap in return. Last time I will make a post on AH forums.
To those that made an honest effort *S*.
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Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives. There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right? Perhaps this number varies from person to person.
Maybe I'll do some research...
Those numbers came from a USAF study I found years back. Don't ask me where the link is now sorry.
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Didn't bother reading every page of this thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed.
The human eye won't perceive images/motion any smoother beyond ~60-90 FPS, in fact when you go to the theater and watch a movie the frame rate is typically much lower then this.
However this is not to say that higher FPS is a waste, since a high avg frame rate gives your system lots of "head room" for GPU spikes that would bring 60 FPS down to < 30 FPS (the approximate threshold for "game impeding performance") would bring 150+ FPS to a frame rate still beyond your perception, thus making the spike invisible to the player.
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Didn't bother reading every page of this thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed.
The human eye won't perceive images/motion any smoother beyond ~60-90 FPS, in fact when you go to the theater and watch a movie the frame rate is typically much lower then this.
However this is not to say that higher FPS is a waste, since a high avg frame rate gives your system lots of "head room" for GPU spikes that would bring 60 FPS down to < 30 FPS (the approximate threshold for "game impeding performance") would bring 150+ FPS to a frame rate still beyond your perception, thus making the spike invisible to the player.
thread was never about fps. let it die.
semp
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You are truly a piece of work. DA
May you end up in life where you started, behind the eight ball.
I try to gain some knowledge and get mostly drivel and non-sense bully crap in return. Last time I will make a post on AH forums.
To those that made an honest effort *S*.
MADe, you're still missing the point completely.
The Video card still processes video, it just doesn't display any frames that exceed the refresh rate of the monitor with VSync turned on. This helps to prevent screen tearing and timing issues and all that.
This also means that any 'overhead' is still present as well.. so literally there is no benefit to having VSync turned off when the monitor simply cannot display these extra frames. On the other end, there are plenty of potential issues by having it turned off so simple logic dictates that it should be turned on.
I don't quite understand your reference to my ending life 'behind the eight ball'... maybe that makes you superior to me, I don't know.
But even so, YOU ARE THE ONE that started with the attitude even though we were ALL doing exactly that, helping you to gain knowledge. Here, let me quote you again:
But Out, I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.
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I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60hz lights. Just guessing mind you.
Yes, that would make sense.. *BUT* what about the same phenomenon that happens outside in broad daylight with the spinning wheels.. they seem to hit a point in which they stop spinning, and then start spinning backwards as the car speeds up/slows down. Would this mean that the sun has a 60hz cycle as well? haha
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Tigger, when you see an illusory motion reversal under continuous lighting it's a different optical illusion than that produced by the stroboscopic effect.
Some theorize that it's a function of perceptual rivalry, as may be motion induced blindness. (i.e) http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_mib/
<S>
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Yes, that would make sense.. *BUT* what about the same phenomenon that happens outside in broad daylight with the spinning wheels.. they seem to hit a point in which they stop spinning, and then start spinning backwards as the car speeds up/slows down. Would this mean that the sun has a 60hz cycle as well? haha
No those are those tricked out wheels with "spinners" on them :D