Skuzzy ?

[delta7]

Someone may have allready said this. If so forgive me.
But I have been playing with EVGA precision, and I noticed that with v-sync not enabled the graphics card works alot harder. Also Gpu temps were alot higher on a GTX 470 that is already  a hot card.
I would not want to run v-sync disabled for a long period of time on my computer in any game.
Oh, I did see the tearing in the screen also. Had graphics settings all maxed, this may have an effect on the amount of tearing that occurs. Didn't test it any other way.

[Vulcan]

Right now, there is no such thing as a true 240Hz monitor, from anyone.  It really is a 120Hz refresh rate that has some tech applied to it to give it a pseudo doubling of the refresh rate.

and iirc the brain perceives motion at a minimum of 17fps, and frames at a maximum of around 110fps. ie anything over 110fps is not going to look better (which is why 100hz is the new magic number for TVs).

[Tigger29]

and iirc the brain perceives motion at a minimum of 17fps, and frames at a maximum of around 110fps. ie anything over 110fps is not going to look better (which is why 100hz is the new magic number for TVs).

You know, I often wonder about that exact thing.  For example, the other night I had my bedside fan turned on and while looking at it, it appeared that the fan blades were slowly rotating backwards.  One can also notice that same kind of phenomenon sometimes when watching a car's wheels spin at certain speeds.. they can appear to spot rotating altogether or even rotate backwards.

Now, AFAIK the only way this can happen is if the "FPS" that the human mind perceives is in-sync (or slightly out of sync) with the RPM of the rotating object.  For example:  A fan rotating at a rate of 6000rpm (100rps) being captured by a camera recording at 100FPS would appear to be stationary.  If it were rotating at a speed of 99rps the it would appear to be going slightly backwards!  If the fan has 3 blades it can actually be spinning at one third of the speed to get the same effect!

Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives.  There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right?  Perhaps this number varies from person to person.

Maybe I'll do some research...

[The Fugitive]

You know, I often wonder about that exact thing.  For example, the other night I had my bedside fan turned on and while looking at it, it appeared that the fan blades were slowly rotating backwards.  One can also notice that same kind of phenomenon sometimes when watching a car's wheels spin at certain speeds.. they can appear to spot rotating altogether or even rotate backwards.

Now, AFAIK the only way this can happen is if the "FPS" that the human mind perceives is in-sync (or slightly out of sync) with the RPM of the rotating object.  For example:  A fan rotating at a rate of 6000rpm (100rps) being captured by a camera recording at 100FPS would appear to be stationary.  If it were rotating at a speed of 99rps the it would appear to be going slightly backwards!  If the fan has 3 blades it can actually be spinning at one third of the speed to get the same effect!

Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives.  There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right?  Perhaps this number varies from person to person.

Maybe I'll do some research...

I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60hz lights. Just guessing mind you.

[Bizman]

I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60Hz lights. Just guessing mind you.

You're absolutely right. In the good old days before CD's but after the invention of electric light we had those magnificent engravered vinyl discs. The digital era brought us record players with speed controlled by a thing called Quartz Lock, but until that every good record player had a series of dots in the edge of the turntable, accompanied by a pot for adjusting the turning speed. In the market there was also cardboard disks having similar dotting. The idea was to synchronize the electric 50 or 60 Hz light with the dots, so the certain row of the would seem to stand still, thus calibrating the rotating speed. Some record players even had a small lamp illuminating the turntable's edge.

In the case of the fan the blades represent the dots. When they seem to rotate backwards, your eyes are being fooled by identical blades: The light goes out 50 or 60 times in a second and during every blackout another blade is coming to your point of view. It may seem that the very blade you were looking at would be moving backwards, while in fact you see another blade almost reaching the position where you last saw a blade.

The same effect can also be seen in movies, especially Westerns: Wagon wheels often seem to rotate backwards. The film moves 24 screens a second and if the wagon wheel rotates slightly faster, the illusion appears.

 

[MADe]

Vulcan, no body ever said that you would FOR SURE have issues running VSync OFF, we're just saying that the possibility exists, and since there is nothing to gain by doing so then why take that chance?

You are truly a piece of work. DA
May you end up in life where you started, behind the eight ball.

I try to gain some knowledge and get mostly drivel and non-sense bully crap in return. Last time I will make a post on AH forums.
To those that made an honest effort *S*.

[Vulcan]

Anyway, I wonder if there was a documented 'measurement' of the FPS that the human mind perceives.  There has to be some kind of number otherwise this phenomenon wouldn't exist, right?  Perhaps this number varies from person to person.

Maybe I'll do some research...

Those numbers came from a USAF study I found years back. Don't ask me where the link is now sorry.

[zeromajin]

Didn't bother reading every page of this thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed.

The human eye won't perceive images/motion any smoother beyond ~60-90 FPS, in fact when you go to the theater and watch a movie the frame rate is typically much lower then this.

However this is not to say that higher FPS is a waste, since a high avg frame rate gives your system lots of "head room" for GPU spikes that would bring 60 FPS down to < 30 FPS (the approximate threshold for "game impeding performance") would bring 150+ FPS to a frame rate still beyond your perception, thus making the spike invisible to the player. 

[guncrasher]

Didn't bother reading every page of this thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed.

The human eye won't perceive images/motion any smoother beyond ~60-90 FPS, in fact when you go to the theater and watch a movie the frame rate is typically much lower then this.

However this is not to say that higher FPS is a waste, since a high avg frame rate gives your system lots of "head room" for GPU spikes that would bring 60 FPS down to < 30 FPS (the approximate threshold for "game impeding performance") would bring 150+ FPS to a frame rate still beyond your perception, thus making the spike invisible to the player. 

thread was never about fps.  let it die.

semp

[Tigger29]

You are truly a piece of work. DA
May you end up in life where you started, behind the eight ball.

I try to gain some knowledge and get mostly drivel and non-sense bully crap in return. Last time I will make a post on AH forums.
To those that made an honest effort *S*.

MADe, you're still missing the point completely.

The Video card still processes video, it just doesn't display any frames that exceed the refresh rate of the monitor with VSync turned on.  This helps to prevent screen tearing and timing issues and all that.

This also means that any 'overhead' is still present as well.. so literally there is no benefit to having VSync turned off when the monitor simply cannot display these extra frames.  On the other end, there are plenty of potential issues by having it turned off so simple logic dictates that it should be turned on.

I don't quite understand your reference to my ending life 'behind the eight ball'... maybe that makes you superior to me, I don't know.

But even so, YOU ARE THE ONE that started with the attitude even though we were ALL doing exactly that, helping you to gain knowledge.  Here, let me quote you again:

But Out,  I am trying to have a discussion about something with Skuzzy. Your personal inferences are un-necessary and unwanted. Maybe you are a yes man, I'm not!
I have paid for the right to ask such questions of AH.

[Tigger29]

I think you might see those things only when electric lights are present. What you are most likely seeing is the "spinning" being in sync with the 60hz lights. Just guessing mind you.

Yes, that would make sense.. *BUT* what about the same phenomenon that happens outside in broad daylight with the spinning wheels.. they seem to hit a point in which they stop spinning, and then start spinning backwards as the car speeds up/slows down.  Would this mean that the sun has a 60hz cycle as well?  haha

[Ghastly]

Tigger, when you see an illusory motion reversal under continuous lighting it's a different optical illusion than that produced by the stroboscopic effect.  

Some theorize that it's a function of perceptual rivalry, as may be motion induced blindness. (i.e) http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_mib/

<S>

[The Fugitive]

Yes, that would make sense.. *BUT* what about the same phenomenon that happens outside in broad daylight with the spinning wheels.. they seem to hit a point in which they stop spinning, and then start spinning backwards as the car speeds up/slows down.  Would this mean that the sun has a 60hz cycle as well?  haha

No those are those tricked out wheels with "spinners" on them