Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wagger on November 24, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
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This fits into this forum or the Wish list. I would like to see the He-177 become part of the plane list in AH. If I remember right it was being worked on from about 1939-1945 with approximately 1,100 produced. The following is a excerpt from the War Diaries of the 534th Squadron, 381 Bomber Group (Hvy).
9. The aircraft bomber assembly plant of E. Heinkel in Oranienburg, Germany is designated as the primary target. Assembled here are He 177’s. This target is located just north of Berlin. Target area was bombed with results being unobserved due to cloud cover. There was intense anti-aircraft fire but no fighter opposition. There were no claims and no losses. Those participating are listed below: Lt. Hytinen, Lt. Freese, Lt. Kuhl, Lt. Muchway, Lt. Williams, Lt. Dickey, Lt. Myers and Lt. Miller. 1st Lt. Edward A. Klein completed his 25th bomber mission over enemy occupied territory this date. He holds the Air Medal, 3 Oak Leaf Clusters and the DFC. S/Sgt. Asa R. Burch and T/Sgt. George M. Lemos also completed their tour of duty. Both men hold the Air Medal, 3 Oak Leafs and the DFC.
Good information. Someone thought it was important enough to target.
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From a quick glance at wikipedia (so take it as you will) I get this:
The Heinkel He 177 Greif (Griffin) was a long-range bomber of the Luftwaffe. This troubled aircraft was the only heavy bomber built in large numbers by Germany during World War II. Luftwaffe aircrew nicknamed it the Luftwaffenfeuerzeug (Luftwaffe's lighter) or the "Flaming Coffin" due to serious engine problems on the initial versions of the aircraft.[2] When these problems were later rectified the type was successful, but could not be deployed in numbers due to Germany's deteriorating situation in the war.
But again, that is Wikipedia. Would like to see more German Iron in skies, so unless someone can give sound reason as to why not (other than more important aircraft needed) then I wouldnt mind seeing it.
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True it had a trouble history but it would give the axis forces a representation in the heavy bomber category. Besides it was produced in numbers similar to or greater than the Brewster.
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The engine problems are a moot point when it comes to AH as those things aren't modeled.
ack-ack
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It would need to be perked in AH. Payload of a Lancaster, defensive guns of a B-17 and speed of a Ki-67.
Well, just a bit behind in each category.
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What a great addition this would make.
+1
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Your mistake is in thinking "Germany needs a heavy bomber!"
It really was mainly used as a test platform for various guided missiles and glider bombs.
Let's put it this way, about the same number of Me410s were made, but they saw a heckuva lot more use than the He177s did.
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Your mistake is in thinking "Germany needs a heavy bomber!"
It really was mainly used as a test platform for various guided missiles and glider bombs.
Let's put it this way, about the same number of Me410s were made, but they saw a heckuva lot more use than the He177s did.
The only thing that prevented wide spread use was the lack of parts and fuel, not because the He 177 was a bad aircraft. The RAF found the He 177 to be rather impressive when they got to testing on He 177A-5 and the long range A-7 model after the war.
ack-ack
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Many folks also thought the Ta152 and Do335 were quite impressive :)
Consider the P1Y1 Francis was made in the numbers over 1000 but saw almost no use in Japan, horded for the eventual US invasion force and planned to use as kamikaze.
Not drawing direct correlary, just saying whatever the reasons the He177 saw little real combat. Training, testbeds, teething problems... 1000 planes isn't really that much in the closing days of Nazi Germany.
Don't get me wrong, nothing to sneeze at, but it's a plane AH doesn't really need. Historically for any setup it's not needed, saw little service. In the MA you have every nation's bombers to fly and again is not needed.
There are bigger fish to fry.
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The only fish we have to fry in this ideot cartoon game are the ones HiTech pulls out of the freezer and throws at us. After all these years, bigger fish to fry... :rolleyes: You say that like Aces High makes policy for the U.N. and China waits with it's breath on hold for Aces High to break wind.
If thats true, what are my six numbers for this saturdays Super Lotto Plus here in california? I have a greater chance of winning with your pick of numbers than any of us have of influenceing which frozen fish HiTech clobbers us with next.
But, with your time in grade and social position in this forum it's a good way to influence the next voting round for any upcoming aircraft because that phrase just sounds so dern offical. Newer players will remember your knowlegable comments about the right planes to vote for in the future rather than go do their own research.
I bet once you get the aircraft you want, if it's a stinker, you'll make everyone think it's ack-acks fault because everyone just loves to hate on him anyway....... :)
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Troll much?
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It would need to be perked in AH. Payload of a Lancaster, defensive guns of a B-17 and speed of a Ki-67.
Well, just a bit behind in each category.
- At 6173lbs, the max. payload is almost the same as B-17s. There are higher figures listed but none even approach Lanc's 14k.
- While 20mm cannon in the tail is formiddable armament, the MG131s are totally inferior to .50cals, Also, the ventral armament consists of only one MG131 in similar position as the MG81Z on the Ju-88, no ventral turrets.
- Ki-67 does ~334mph at 20k in the game. He-177 has a top speed of 273mph for the He177A-5/R2 at 19685ft. That's a 61mph difference. (More on the speed below)
Source: Griel's and Dressel's He177, 277, 274.
There's no more reason to perk He177 than there is to perk any of the heavy bombers in AH.
EDIT/Some additional comments regarding the speed...
I do have to say that Griel's and Dressel's figures seemed low:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/He177speed.jpg)
That's ~340mph max. speed on that chart.
He177A-5/R7 on the other hand is listed having top speed of 323mph./EDIT
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quote from 'Heinkel 177, 277 274' by Manfred Griehel and Joachim Dressel, ISBN 1 85310 364 0, containing a German wartime report on He-177
In May 1944 Major Schubert of the Luftwaffengeneralstab and Reichsmarschall Goring's Adjutancy was finally appointed to establish the principal reasons for the delays experienced in re- equipping Luftwaffe bomber units with the He 177. Nothing needs to be added to his report:
Most of the aircrew of units selected for re- equipment with the He 177 were operationally 'tired-out' and relatively few were from front-line units. The necessary personnel consisted primarily of Young, often inexperienced aircrews, and for reasons of capacity their conversion training at operational training and replacement Gruppen could only be completed in relatively few cases. Most of the young pilots had only nine to 12 months of practical flying experience prior to being transferred to such a complicated aircraft as the He 177.
Apart from that, the new operational crews had been trained on the Ju 88, and most had hardly any training in the art of night-flying. The necessary conversion training meant the compulsory withdrawal of operational He 177s for use as trainers, which in turn led to an overload of work for the technical personnel due to the numerous instances of damage suffered by these aircraft as a result of the training activities.
Matters were made all the more difficult by the fact that some of the ground personnel had not been pre-instructed on the He 177. In addition, the vast majority of the technical personnel arrived at their He 177-equipped bomber Gruppen several months after the units had first received their re- equipment orders. By spring 1944, some units were still short of about 50 per cent of engine fitters. Some of the other personnel first set eyes on the He 177 upon arrival at their assigned unit's airfield, their instruction and training on the Heinkel bomber having to start there and then.
The supply of aircraft servicing tools and appliances also did not keep up with deliveries of He 177s. Thus, for instance, the wing attachment cranes needed to facilitate powerplant changes arrived several months after the delivery of the aircraft themselves, and even then they were too few in number. For IV/KG 1 there was no specialised engine-changing equipment at all, and for this reason the unit had to suspend all training activities in mid-April 1944.
The 'engine circulation' (service units - repair depots - service units) also did not flow as it should have done at first, because of a lack of transportation. Neither the supply of new engines nor the return of DB 606/610s in need of repair functioned properly, least of all the supply of exchange powerplants to individual airfields. It wasn't until April 1944 that these shortcomings were effectively overcome, but they were never fully eradicated.
According to Major Schubert, the time expenditure required for the maintenance and servicing of the He 177 was incomparable with that of any other operational aircraft in service with the Luftwaffe. The jacking-up operation to change the main undercarriage tyres alone (which had to done at least twice as frequently as on other aircraft types) lasted some 2fi hours using the prescribed mechanical spindle blocks. Yet by early summer 1944 far too few of these 12-ton spindle blocks recommended by the manufacturer were available to He 177-equipped units.
The layout of the powerplants too did not exactly help attempts to carry out the necessary servicing work. Because of the inaccessibility of the coupled engines their dismounting took considerably longer than similar work on, for example, the Ju 88 or He 111. Due to the low training level of the technicians, a 25-hour control check on the He 177 usually took two, sometimes even three days.
Criticism was also made of the airfields selected to receive the He 177. Apart from Aalborg in Denmark, all of the others were already completely overcrowded, and lacked the potential for dispersal, camouflage and suitable protection of their aircraft against bomb splinters and shrapnel. For this reason low-level attacks by Allied aircraft caused great losses amongst the He 177s parked out in the open from 1944 onwards, especially as the airfields were now constantly within the range of both fighters and bombers. To make matters worse, this vulnerability to attack had a knock-on effect on He 177 training activities, which sometimes had to be reduced by up to per cent because enemy aircraft were on their way and air raid warnings came into force.
No consideration had been given to the fact that the technically complex He 177 required sufficient hangar space for maintenance and repair purposes, especially during the winter months. The delays caused by this shortcoming alone may well have been responsible for the postponement of He 177 operations by some six months to a year.
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- At 6173lbs, the max. payload is almost the same as B-17s. There are higher figures listed but none even approach Lanc's 14k.
- While 20mm cannon in the tail is formiddable armament, the MG131s are totally inferior to .50cals, Also, the ventral armament consists of only one MG131 in similar position as the MG81Z on the Ju-88, no ventral turrets.
- Ki-67 does ~334mph at 20k in the game. He-177 has a top speed of 273mph for the He177A-5/R2 at 19685ft. That's a 61mph difference. (More on the speed below)
Source: Griel's and Dressel's He177, 277, 274.
There's no more reason to perk He177 than there is to perk any of the heavy bombers in AH.
EDIT/Some additional comments regarding the speed...
I do have to say that Griel's and Dressel's figures seemed low:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/He177speed.jpg)
That's ~340mph max. speed on that chart.
He177A-5/R7 on the other hand is listed having top speed of 323mph./EDIT
Did it have Notleistung? Would be faster again.
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Wmaker,
The loadouts that people always give it when they ask for it are 12,000-13,000lbs. Slightly less than the Lancaster while being much faster and having much better defensive guns.
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The loadouts that people always give it when they ask for it are 12,000-13,000lbs.
Ok. I wonder where they get their figures from (honest question) and what kind of warload does that figure consist of? The highest figure Griel & Dressel list is 9259lbs (4200kg) for the A-7 -variant.
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Ok. I wonder where they get their figures from (honest question) and what kind of warload does that figure consist of? The highest figure Griel & Dressel list is 9259lbs (4200kg) for the A-7 -variant.
Wikipedia. (honest answer) :aok
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Wikipedia. (honest answer) :aok
Rgr. I knew they were there. It's just that there's no references attached to the figures.
- 10 × 500 kg (1,102 lb) bombs (5,000 kg/11,023 lb total)
- 2 × 1,000 kg (2,204 lb) bombs + 2 × 1,800 kg (3,968 lb) bombs (5,600 kg/12,345 lb total)
- 6 × 1,000 kg (2,204 lb) bombs (6,000 kg/13,227 lb total)
Just by looking at the bomb bays, I think 2x1000kg could be carried in each, so that would be six 1000kg bombs/13,227lb payload.
When talking about AH modelling, it depends what kind of bomb load HTC wants to model. As many know, B-17 for example could carry significantly bigger loads than 600lbs over smaller distancies but didn't really carry such loads in the war.
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According to Hitler's Luftwaffe (ISBN 0-517-22477-1) the He 177A-5 had an empty weight of 37,038lb, loaded weight of 68,343lb and a maximum internal bomb load of 13,200lb (6000 kg). Top speed is listed as 295 mph.
Despite what Krusty posted the He 177 saw extensive service on the eastern front with about 700 Greifs serving there. The main reason why the aircraft had such a dismal serviceability record is the Luftwaffe's inability to properly support such an advanced aircraft in the field.
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The 295 mph speed is likely the maximum continuous speed (Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung). Unlike on most allied aircraft the Germans had more than one WEP; Kampfleistung (combat) usually had a 30 minute limit, and Notleistung (emergency) was limited from 3 minutes to over 10 minutes depending on engine. Some engines like the BMW 801D-2 had two Notleistung settings: Normal and increased (with C3 injection). Same with MW50 equipped DBs. What top cruising speed an Aces High He 177 will get depends on what engine setting HTC chooses to model as "military".
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Actually it's more likely that only 200 saw combat. The majority of the combat was over France and the Channel (anti-shipping, where the guided bombs rockets and missiles come in, each weiging about 1400-1600kg and carried externally). Those sorties flown to attack Russian targets were flown from airfields in Germany proper, so they were never really on "the eastern front" ... There were only a few airfields that accomodated the Greif, and these fields were overcrowded without proper revetments or hangars. As such low-level Allied attacks destroyed many Greifs on the ground.
To its credit, the He-177 was the only plane Germany used for mass formation bombing (like Allied bombers did to Germany), but this was not common and done only over Soviet airspace where the speed of the attack and the alt flown (over 20k) meant little to no Soviet interceptors could chase them down.
Still, when flown in this level bomber mode (i.e. no flying bombs/rockets) I believe all ord was carried internally. The max weights are with 2 or 3 guided missiles. Bombs alone would have been less of a payload.
I'd much rather have the Ju-188 (or, wish and dream, the Ju-388) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Junkers_Ju388L-1.jpg <-- puuuurty!)
P.S. 700 is the number of all A-5s (or was it A-3 and A-5s?) made, so that's not the number that saw combat, and with the majority of Greif combat taking place in France it surely isn't the number flying over Russia.
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It would still be nice to have to increase the number of axis bombers. But I would not sneeze at the Ju-388
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He 177 A-3 - 615 November 1942 - June 1944
He 177 A-5 - 349 December 1943 - August 1944
Total - 1,137, all models
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My source says: "... 35 pre-production A-0s (built mainly by Arado)", "Arado built 130 A-1s, followed by 170 Heinkel-built A-3s and 826 A-5s with repositioned engines and longer fuselages. About 700 served on the Eastern Front, many having 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting; a few nervously bombed Britain in 400mph shallow dives."
Very close to the same total of airframes Milo, but different distribution of models.
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My source says:
"About 700 served on the Eastern Front, many having 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting; a few nervously bombed Britain in 400mph shallow dives."
What the hell is that kind of source? Bob's Big Book of Airplanes? Some kiddie coloring book?
A few? Nervously bombing? In shallow dives? What....
Ok. During the mini blitz 3./KG 100 was the first Heinkel 177 unit flying against Britain, target London. I./KG100 joined them in these operations. One tactic was to bomb target marked by pathfinders from 5000 meters, flying in 560km/h shallow dive in descent rate of 200m/minute. This was not a "nervous dive" but a very fast speed bombing run that allowed the bombers to hit target in high speed and get out fast, making effective interception very hard. Alongside London, Heinkels targeted for example Hull and Bristol.
And 50mm guns for tank busting? Never happened. 75mm, yes. A-3/R5. Heavy fighter, designed for Anti Air, some sources claim also used for anti tank. Doubtful. Very few build as such, anyway. A-1/U1 was more interesting, twin 30 mm MK101s for anti bomber work.
More interesting versions, if talking about special uses, were A3-/R3 and forward, used as anti shipping missile carriers. Those were nice planes, used for patrolling and anti convoy raids in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.
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I cited the source earlier: Hitler's Luftwaffe (ISBN 0-517-22477-1).
A number of Greifs were armed with the BK50 cannon in the ventral gondola. Nicknamed the "Stalingradtyp" they were assigned to flak-suppression sorties in the area of Stalingrad during the winter of 1942. A small number were modified to fit the larger BK75, but the airframe couldn't handle the recoil well. Only the BK50 variant saw combat.
(http://www.456fis.org/MISC-7/he-177-s[1].gif)
The Baby Blitz shallow-dive bombing runs were not "nervous", but the crews were. I think that was the intended meaning of the book-quote.
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The Baby Blitz shallow-dive bombing runs were not "nervous", but the crews were. I think that was the intended meaning of the book-quote.
They did this to avoid mosquitoes night fighters. Apparently, this was not fast enough as quite a few were caught and shot down. I vaguely remember something like close to 200 bombers participating and 18 mosquito kills in one night, but don't quote me on that (numbers may be off, maybe not all 177s). Need to check the books.
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They did this to avoid mosquitoes night fighters. Apparently, this was not fast enough as quite a few were caught and shot down. I vaguely remember something like close to 200 bombers participating and 18 mosquito kills in one night, but don't quote me on that (numbers may be off, maybe not all 177s). Need to check the books.
I vaguely remember 177's having the smallest losses of all participating bombers, percentage wise, do to their speed and armor.