Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: pembquist on November 29, 2010, 02:01:45 PM
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Being brand new I hope I dont get the RTFM but heres my question: I'm trying to get a handle on which aircraft I can fight with the Spit 8 as I learn the game. I read the aircraft comparisons but I want to make a cheat sheet so I don't waste my time in futile battles. I would like to know which planes to avoid or remain defensive/runaway from. Assuming the bandit is a slightly better pilot what planes in 3 categories of fight, (energy, stall, bnz,) should I just avoid. So far my list has the KI84 the F4u-1c and the LA7. I've been referring to soda's pages but I feel I could really benefit from the opinions of experienced pilots. Eventually I want to create a reference for myself and any other new pilots about how to fight the spit 8 specifically against all the other planes. If this has already been done I'm sorry but I haven't found it. Thanks all
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Keeping in mind here that I'm not really that good my own self: First I'd say you can fight any plane at all in the Spit8, it's a fine airplane that does a lot of things very well. Don't bother chasing some of the others if they get to running from you though. You'll do better in the long run and learn a lot faster if you don't avoid fights, in any situation. The trick is to learn to fight all kinds of fights, and to transition from one to another at need. Then you'll find you're prepared for whatever you might run into. Also, always assume the bandit is a better pilot, and be glad of it. You only learn by fighting people better than you, or getting yourself into situations that are likely to get you killed and trying to fight your way out of them. You just aren't going to learn to fight by running.
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Don't look at it as what planes you should avoid. Look at it like what you need to do in a spit8 to defeat those planes you mentioned. Avoiding a fight just because the plane is superior on paper is detrimental to your learning how to fight.
When you are starting out plan on dieing a lot. Don't be afraid to jump into a fight even if the odds don't favor you. You never know you might surprise yourself and come out on top, and at the very least you improve your SA and plane control.
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The Spitfire Mk VIII is also one of the better planes in the plane set and quite versatile in both energy and angles fighting.
ack-ack
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First I'd say you can fight any plane at all in the Spit8, it's a fine airplane that does a lot of things very well.
Yes!
The 8 is a good allround fighter that is almost always able to find a particular counter vs any plane in it's toolbox. The few planes that really can turn tighter it can often outclimb and generally E fight against them. Against faster planes, it can turn, try to slow down the fight. A few planes are about equal... but equal still means you have all chances to win.
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The relative energy states at the start of your encounter can be more important than the "potential" performance of the opposing plane. The pilot makes a big difference.
I recommend that you disable "Stall Limiter" under Options > Preferences > Flight from the clipboard. Get used to flying without it as soon as possible, if you haven't done that already. Having it on limits your Angle of Attack (AoA).
Don't be shy about getting into a fight. You're going to get shot down (everyone does), but every fight is a learning experience that builds a repertoire of circumstances that you can call upon later.
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O.K. I understand the Spit 8 is great, flexible, in the hands of a skilled pilot... etc. I understand you have to fight to learn, I know its about exploiting strengths over weakness, that you can't be afraid to die.....but. If I go to the dueling area or if I am in an area crowded with bandits it seems to me that, being a less skilled pilot, I would probably learn SA and maneuvers faster if I picked an opponent where my crate was not completely outclassed in one regime or another. (E.G. Not get killed instantly.) It seems to me,(and I realize I might be totally wrong,)that the more powerful planes can dictate the fight more easily because they don't have to slow down to where my superior turn and climb capabilities might give me an advantage. I understand that if there was a chance of actually getting killed no one would ever give up any speed, this proclivity seems to be enshrined in such quotes as "speed is life". Whats more I might last a little longer if I didn't have a wall of lead flying at me (re: firepower.) Look at it in reverse if I was asking what plane you would pick to kill a spit 8 if you were betting on it, how many of you would pick an f4f? What would you pick?
Regarding the stall limiter I've never had it on, I don't really see the point to it, I'm assuming that it won't let you fly to the verge of departure and being a new pilot I need access to more of the envelope not less.
I don't know how this reads but please don't misunderstand it as contentious or obnoxious that is not how its intended and thank you for all your replies to this newbie.
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Well if you insist on the DA...talk to some of the more known guys....Check if there are any muppets or pigs or the like on...if they are they will more than likely be having their own duels and are usually willing to accept and help others out these are some of the bestest..funnest times in the DA and they have quality sticks who are willing to offer advice after they have stomped you :lol :lol no they are actually quite gentle :D...The lake is just what it is....not much to be learn't there when crowded. Come to the MA....ask a few questions ...alot of guys will be willing to have to tag along and give you pointers.....So stay away from the lake when crowded...heck man...even call somebody out and ask if they want to duel a little and go to your own field.
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O.K. I understand the Spit 8 is great, flexible, in the hands of a skilled pilot... etc. I understand you have to fight to learn, I know its about exploiting strengths over weakness, that you can't be afraid to die.....but. If I go to the dueling area or if I am in an area crowded with bandits it seems to me that, being a less skilled pilot, I would probably learn SA and maneuvers faster if I picked an opponent where my crate was not completely outclassed in one regime or another. (E.G. Not get killed instantly.) It seems to me,(and I realize I might be totally wrong,)that the more powerful planes can dictate the fight more easily because they don't have to slow down to where my superior turn and climb capabilities might give me an advantage. I understand that if there was a chance of actually getting killed no one would ever give up any speed, this proclivity seems to be enshrined in such quotes as "speed is life". Whats more I might last a little longer if I didn't have a wall of lead flying at me (re: firepower.) Look at it in reverse if I was asking what plane you would pick to kill a spit 8 if you were betting on it, how many of you would pick an f4f? What would you pick?
Regarding the stall limiter I've never had it on, I don't really see the point to it, I'm assuming that it won't let you fly to the verge of departure and being a new pilot I need access to more of the envelope not less.
I don't know how this reads but please don't misunderstand it as contentious or obnoxious that is not how its intended and thank you for all your replies to this newbie.
Well again I'd say that the Spit8 is really and truly a match for anything. It's fast, not the fastest, but fast nonetheless, it turns well, not the best, but really well, it holds E beautifully, it climbs well and has good guns and visibility. There's nothing I'd be afraid to get into it with.
As far as fighting fast planes that dictate the fight, most guys in the arena "dictate" the fight by making one pass then extending 5k or so, or until you turn around from boredom and go looking for someone else. If you get a guy who's really going to try and bnz you, there are ways to cut into his E advantage and work it to an even fight. The trick there is to sort of sucker them into fighting your fight and not theirs, make them blow E trying to get a shot on you until before they know it they're in a dogfight and not working you from above.
As far as looking to pick the right plane, you'll need to fight all of them to get a good feel for your plane's performance vs theirs anyway. There is no plane to really fear in a Spit8 though man. Personally for killing them, I like my K4, but I'd answer that the same for what plane to pick against any opponent.
If you see me in the arenas, give me a shout, I'll gladly hit the DA with you for a while and fight it out. An hour there will teach you more than a month in the arenas. Just keep in mind, I'm not that good, I just love to fight.
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I've been flying Spits as my main ride here and in AW for over 14 years. The Spits IX, VIII and XVI have advantages that can be exploited against any plane in the plane set. It's up to you to learn what those advantages are and learn to exploit them.
The Spit's VIII and XVI in particular, while not being the top plane in any category, are near the top in virtually every category. Pick one; Speed, climb, lethality, turning ability, acceleration, roll rate (more so with the XVI than the VIII), etc.
Either of these planes can make quick work of an La (5 or 7) or an F4U of any variety if flown right. Your decision to run from these match-ups only means you haven't fought them enough to learn your own strengths and their weaknesses. More than any other plane these Spits can transition from BnZ to E fighting to stall fighting and back with equal ease and it's why they are often referred to as "easy mode". They can fight any type of fight required and are quite forgiving if you really mess up.
In conclusion, there's no plane in the set I'd run from or avoid a fight with in the Spit VIII and if that's what you're planning on doing you're going to greatly hamper your development and understanding of your aircraft. The only situation that you have to be wary of is a high speed BnZ type coupled with a tighter turner two on one aganist you. The BnZer will get you to turn and the turner will try to eat you up. Other than that two and three on ones shouldn't be a huge problem if you keep your SA up.
Fly, fight, die, learn, have fun.
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O.K. I understand the Spit 8 is great, flexible, in the hands of a skilled pilot... etc. I understand you have to fight to learn, I know its about exploiting strengths over weakness, that you can't be afraid to die.....but. If I go to the dueling area or if I am in an area crowded with bandits it seems to me that, being a less skilled pilot, I would probably learn SA and maneuvers faster if I picked an opponent where my crate was not completely outclassed in one regime or another. (E.G. Not get killed instantly.) It seems to me,(and I realize I might be totally wrong,)that the more powerful planes can dictate the fight more easily because they don't have to slow down to where my superior turn and climb capabilities might give me an advantage. I understand that if there was a chance of actually getting killed no one would ever give up any speed, this proclivity seems to be enshrined in such quotes as "speed is life". Whats more I might last a little longer if I didn't have a wall of lead flying at me (re: firepower.) Look at it in reverse if I was asking what plane you would pick to kill a spit 8 if you were betting on it, how many of you would pick an f4f? What would you pick?
Regarding the stall limiter I've never had it on, I don't really see the point to it, I'm assuming that it won't let you fly to the verge of departure and being a new pilot I need access to more of the envelope not less.
find me in the DA one day, I will be flying under the name Pavel, I would be happy to teach you some basic ACM and also we can go to the lake and work on your SA, another good place to go would be the TA lots of skilled trainers in there that are more then willing to help you with everything from basic things, to more advanced stuff
I don't know how this reads but please don't misunderstand it as contentious or obnoxious that is not how its intended and thank you for all your replies to this newbie.
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You can turn with everything except hurricane, zero and brewster. Use your superior climb rate against them, build a little separation and start the energy-fight. Against ki-84, turn the fight to downhill. F4u-s can fly really slow, but their sustained turn rate isnt as good. You can easily outturn them until they start the rolling scissors, then break from the turn and begin your energy fight.
Good luck!
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I'll defer to the standard "it's the man not the machine........."
I've flown the Spit 8 only a few times and where I've gotten myself in to trouble is not in getting the position behind a bandit (pretty easy) but, not being able to "close the deal" and kill him quickly, thereby losing my SA somewhat and getting dragged out of the fight in to his friends.
Planes that can extend from you are not ones you want to continue chasing: F4U, K'4's, 51's, 109D.......If I couldn't kill one right off (I normally fly the F4U) I'd drag it out of the fight and try and kill it that way, If I couldn't do that; odds are a friendly would come along and finish the job for me. It's suprising how some will continue to chase a plane when there is no way to catch it.
It's normally the guy that can survive a little longer and make the least mental (not necessarily maneuver) mistakes that wins the fight. Don't accept HO's, don't fly in to the ack, don't fly in to the pack of bad guys alone....Unless you don't care of course, LOL.
Good luck,
:salute
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The Spit 8 is my first love in AH, and you have chosen a plane that can do well against the whole plane set. There are only a few planes that can flat outclimb it, it turns better than most (not all) of the plane set, and is fast enough to reset against the better turning planes. It has great performance from the deck to high altitudes. The biggest bonus that the Spit 8 offers is it's E-building and management capabilities. It builds E fast, and gives E up very slow. The double Hispano cannons are killers of any fighter size aircraft. They simply are the hardest hitting 20mm cannons in the game.
Look at it on a plane by plane basis for each fight. Take a P51D: you can outturn it, you can outclimb it, your E holds better than it, but he is faster overall. So pull him into a fight that the superior speed does not matter. My suggestion is to climb, or get them to turn.
Good Luck!
Way
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Pembquist, if you see me or any of The Few on, give them a shout and they'll help ya out. The spit 8 is a versatile machine, capable of fighting and winning against the majority of the plane set. Against a slower, better turning plane, use your e, ie, high and low yoyo's etc, angles to get guns on and all that.
Any of the guys already mentioned (and the majority of those who have answered) can help you out. I'd also strongly suggest getting together with a trainer.
Wurzel
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I only made a few training films attempts for my squad but I remember one of these two as being very helpful to some of our newer players. I think I made them in 2008 but should still play on the currant viewer.
I can't see whats on the film from this computer but I do remember both were made using a Spit 8
The first is called lag pursuit and the second is about throttle management....They may be the same film with Lag pursuit being the long version and throt management being the meat.
Throttle management is VERY IMPORTANT when fighting any enemy and believe thats the one the guys liked most. It's not professional but there is plenty you can learn from it.
http://download850.mediafire.com/4q3e5creonzg/2tkntkwwzjm/%231lag+pursuit.ahf
http://download849.mediafire.com/4fo1v68ajmkg/ibb1zdettzm/%233Throt+manage-lag+pursuit.ahf
These 2 are on how to remove someone from your 6
http://download848.mediafire.com/unue74s7n75g/ztztd0qzzfm/%232Remove+Lance+from+6.ahf
http://download391.mediafire.com/jvr55be554rg/wkvwkg5mmtw/Lance+said+I+ho%27ed+him.ahf
And this one is just for fun but i use all my skills to stay alive with no gas and many bandits killing 5 in an FM-2 GREAT PLANE BTW, try it out someday.
http://download388.mediafire.com/mpbf1e2ka4hg/ynny2jblvn4/fm2+5kills.ahf
Multiple boogies a few kills but I stay alive in FM-2.. I wish I had the film of making 12 kills in one sortie using an FM-2..was my best run in one ever.
http://download555.mediafire.com/j3cxtom4h2og/5ztezjnduhn/I+don%27t+run+or+stir_.ahf
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Being brand new I hope I dont get the RTFM but heres my question: I'm trying to get a handle on which aircraft I can fight with the Spit 8 as I learn the game. I read the aircraft comparisons but I want to make a cheat sheet so I don't waste my time in futile battles. I would like to know which planes to avoid or remain defensive/runaway from. Assuming the bandit is a slightly better pilot what planes in 3 categories of fight, (energy, stall, bnz,) should I just avoid. So far my list has the KI84 the F4u-1c and the LA7. I've been referring to soda's pages but I feel I could really benefit from the opinions of experienced pilots. Eventually I want to create a reference for myself and any other new pilots about how to fight the spit 8 specifically against all the other planes. If this has already been done I'm sorry but I haven't found it. Thanks all
Pembquist, as other posters have mentioned, your choice of the Spit 8 as a good generalist plane that can stand up to a wide variety of opponent airframes is a good one. I think it's also a valid approach to mix it up with a variety of planes and pilots. Personally, I have gone up against a 262 in my FM2 and managed a kill (I was pedaling really fast... :D), so all things are possible.
However, from what I understand, it seems that you're seeking a workable way to determine where you have a fair chance of winning or when it's time to "git," before you commit to the engagement and I think that it's a valid question.
Our squad CO, Rapier (also an AH Trainer), recently wrote down some thoughts about that, which I turned into a little training tip and put on our website. It's a short but helpful read that I think you'd find useful:
http://www.musketeers.org/?p=191 (http://www.musketeers.org/?p=191)
I think that an ability to assess as many variables of the fight accurately as you can before you're committed to it, coupled with your growing knowledge of plane versus plane performance capabilities, will give you what you're seeking (if I accurately read the intent of your questions).
FWIW,
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Thank you Wraith. You got to the heart of my question. I guess I should have said "imagine its a real war, what would you tell a new pilot to do? (assuming you don't want his bunk or shoes or whatever.) I guess a refinement would be to talk about the other planes in terms of my weaknesses as a pilot instead of the spitfire. I wonder if there are certain weaknesses that new pilots share broadly that might translate into weakness in particular points of flying and then bad odds against certain planes. My big weakness is SA/eyes on, (yes I've got my views modified I just spaz out in the heat of battle,) so that probably covers everything.
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The two biggest problems I see new players have other than SA, is greed, and over controlling the plane.
Greed because they pull and pull to get a shot only to blow all their E and end up a sitting duck. Fly for position first, once you have position then move in for the shot, if the shot is not there fly yourself back into position while bleeding the E of your opponent. Don't dump all your E for a shot that may not get the job done. This is where knowledge of the different planes will help you in making the correct decision.
Over controlling because when someone gets behind a newbie they normally make violent flight control movements. They pitch up hard then turn hard. trying to pull the nose around for a shot. All this does is bleed your E, and leave you vulnerable to getting popped. First thing to do is assess the situation. How far back is he, is he higher or lower than me, is he gaining on me or am I pulling away. Again this is where knowledge of the different plane types will come in handy giving you an idea of how best to defeat you opponent. I know that it can be difficult to take the time to look around and see what is going on when you feel that you are about to be shot from the sky, but nine times out of ten things aren't really as bad as you first perceived, and making an informed decision can mean winning the fight, and the tenth time, well if he's that close on your six you're probably going to die anyway.
Lastly, there is no easy way, it takes time and practice. Learning the strengths and weaknesses of each plane and how best to defeated them in most situations, or being able to judge E states aren't things that most people pick up quickly. So don't get discouraged every fight is a learning experience, and believe it or not you learn more from the ones you lose than you do the ones you win. I've been doing this for a long time and I'm still learning new things. Fly your plane a lot, learn how to fly the edge, and how to recover when you've taken it too far beyond the edge. Learn what it feels like when it's heavy and what it feels like when it's light. Stall and spin it in every possible configuration until you can recover without breaking a sweat.
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The only piece of advice I would add is to learn the capabilities of the aircraft you will be facing so you can know what tactics to employ when facing them. While not cut and dry, it's good to know the strengths and weaknesses of your opponents. Visit the Plane evaluation site or mess around with DoKGonzo's aircraft comparisons, both can be found on your new best friend, the trainer's page.
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It's a spit8.... it out-turns everything that outruns it, it outclimbs everything in the game, it outruns all the really nimble stuff that's a threat to it, and it can stay with even the fastest of planes long enough to bring them down in a chase.
It's really one of the most powerful planes in the game. You shouldn't have any problems in it. Just have fun.
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Krusty,
Ki-84s seem to rip them up badly every time they face each other in a CBI setting in an event or in the Axis vs Allies arena.
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Krusty,
Ki-84s seem to rip them up badly every time they face each other in a CBI setting in an event or in the Axis vs Allies arena.
When I fly the Frank I never seem to have any problems with any of the Spits. Not sure exactly why, perhaps the Spits hang on to E too well to get angles at speed and when slow the Frank rules with the flaps out. Just a guess, maybe it's a confidence thing though, I just feel better in the Frank than I do in any Spit. I'd be interested to fly a bunch of duels with someone where each of us flew both planes half the time. That might be fairly instructive.
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When I fly the Frank I never seem to have any problems with any of the Spits. Not sure exactly why, perhaps the Spits hang on to E too well to get angles at speed and when slow the Frank rules with the flaps out. Just a guess, maybe it's a confidence thing though, I just feel better in the Frank than I do in any Spit. I'd be interested to fly a bunch of duels with someone where each of us flew both planes half the time. That might be fairly instructive.
That's funny because I find it just the opposite. I never have a problem killing a Ki-84 when I'm in any Mk Spit.
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That's funny because I find it just the opposite. I never have a problem killing a Ki-84 when I'm in any Mk Spit.
Well maybe that's an indicator that it's a confidence thing then. I've fought you a couple, and I feel like you're a better stck than me, but disreguarding that, how would you feel about running a Spit/KI84 duel experiment with me sometime? I remember you saying you're working a lot lately, so maybe after Christmas when things slow down for everybody somewhat? Might be interesting and would definitely be fun. Just remember to go a little easy on me because I'm not that good yet.
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I never said it was unbeatable.. I just said it was one of the most powerful fighters in the game.
And it can deal with Ki84s, yes. Especially when it can fly faster than 450mph without spontaneous flight surface removal.
I fly Ki84s myself. I enjoy them. Against even a halfway decent spitfire you're in for a tough fight. It's do-able, but in this case I think the pilot skill will determine the outcome (not always the case).
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the KI-84 is just as deadly as any spit, ive killed many a spit with that KI, heck I perfere the KI over the spit, any spit for that matter, personaly I think its the better plane, but again the pilot is who you are fighting and if you are a noob and just dont understand BFM-ACM it dont mattert what the vet is in he gonna hand ya your butt, thats how you learn listen to what a lot are saying, NEVER ''run'' from a fight, obviously if your bingo go land, but only way to learn is to do.
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Well maybe that's an indicator that it's a confidence thing then. I've fought you a couple, and I feel like you're a better stck than me, but disreguarding that, how would you feel about running a Spit/KI84 duel experiment with me sometime? I remember you saying you're working a lot lately, so maybe after Christmas when things slow down for everybody somewhat? Might be interesting and would definitely be fun. Just remember to go a little easy on me because I'm not that good yet.
I'd be glad to fo a few rounds. I always need the practice playing as little as I do these days but it would have to be a weekend. Shoot me a PM.
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Bravo! :) Pls film the duels from both planes so that I could d/l the
films for my edification. TY :salute
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Look at it in reverse if I was asking what plane you would pick to kill a spit 8 if you were betting on it, how many of you would pick an f4f? What would you pick?
I would.