Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: HighGTrn on December 06, 2010, 12:10:40 PM
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Hi all. If anyone has ever fought against AKDogg or Delirium, you know what I'm talking about.
Scenario:
On their 6, moving in for shot. They start to roll and turn, you match their roll to get in phase and start to pull lead. By the time you are within shooting distance, they are under your sights and buried in your dash (ie.. you cant see them anymore). You fire only to see them climbing and rolling completely out of phase with you. Does a lag roll work in this situation?
Thanks.
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When I see this being set up, i will usually stay high and try to lag pursuit with them initially, avoiding getting sucked into a nose down crossing shot. If they are able to cut throttle effectively and still set a shot up, i will usually attempt to dodge it by going vertical and then coming down for th kill. Other times I will lag pursuit first, then cut throttle and commit; it kind of depends what the plane matchup is.
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I usually do this if I know its someone who knows and can do this. Problem is I don't know its gonna happen till I get in close and its too late to lag roll. I guess I can feint a commit from a long way out and see what they do.
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I usually do this if I know its someone who knows and can do this. Problem is I don't know its gonna happen till I get in close and its too late to lag roll. I guess I can feint a commit from a long way out and see what they do.
Well if you react late to it, don't commit, just keep nose up and go into a low G high spiral climb avoiding the nose of their aircraft in your upward view. Spiral up into the appex of your rope, and they will most likely never get a shot and will not have enough speed to hang.
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I'll do the same as Grizz mentioned. One of two things, usualy.
1) stay fast and don't go for the shot on the first pass. Watch for them to start the barrel roll and break away to thier 'belly side' slightly before climbing again. This will make it difficult for them to connect a snapshot. If you turn towards thier 'top side' then they have much better odds of making a reversal shot. The goal for me in this situation is to make the enemy think I am scared to commit. They will be expecting my second attack to be similar, at which point I would hope to switch it up and go to option 2).
2) Cut your power and glide into the attack. Remember that 300 yards is clsoe enough for accurate gunenry, and closure should be almost halted by that range if the intention is to saddle up for a shot. The main factor that helps the defender is speed differential between themself and the attacker. The lower the attacker's speed, the longer they have to fire and the harder the defender must evade to stay safe. The make or break aspect of this method is in your gunnery. If you can hit them, you win. If you miss, you may be sucking yourself into a losing battle.
To stay 100% safe there is only one true method. Leave them alone :)
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I'll do the same as Grizz mentioned. One of two things, usualy.
1) stay fast and don't go for the shot on the first pass. Watch for them to start the barrel roll and break away to thier 'belly side' slightly before climbing again. This will make it difficult for them to connect a snapshot. If you turn towards thier 'top side' then they have much better odds of making a reversal shot. The goal for me in this situation is to make the enemy think I am scared to commit. They will be expecting my second attack to be similar, at which point I would hope to switch it up and go to option 2).
2) Cut your power and glide into the attack. Remember that 300 yards is clsoe enough for accurate gunenry, and closure should be almost halted by that range if the intention is to saddle up for a shot. The main factor that helps the defender is speed differential between themself and the attacker. The lower the attacker's speed, the longer they have to fire and the harder the defender must evade to stay safe. The make or break aspect of this method is in your gunnery. If you can hit them, you win. If you miss, you may be sucking yourself into a losing battle.
To stay 100% safe there is only one true method. Leave them alone :)
What fun would that be?
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What I like to do when I see someone start a BRD, is I lag turn behind them but not exactly in the same plane as them, instead if they go for a flat turn prior to them pulling up, I begin a high yo-yo (with the throttle low), then as their nose pulls up, I roll down and as my nose is falling and I take the shot. All to often, they go boom. :joystick:
Also this tactic works great if they decide to just break turn or go into luftberries, as I will be able to turn with them by going out of plane.
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It depends on my E state compared to his. I will chop throttle if Im not far off his E, trying to saddle him in the roll but you have to watch out if you have too much and it enters rolling scissors you may be in a losing fight and same the other way......he ropes you becdause you chopped too much.
If I have alot of E Ill just pull away to the belly side of his plane then just roll over and come at him again till I burn his E off.
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What fun would that be?
no fun at all!
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It depends on my E state compared to his. I will chop throttle if Im not far off his E, trying to saddle him in the roll but you have to watch out if you have too much and it enters rolling scissors you may be in a losing fight and same the other way......he ropes you becdause you chopped too much.
If I have alot of E Ill just pull away to the belly side of his plane then just roll over and come at him again till I burn his E off.
It's the angle you enter at. If you cut him off at a cross, it won't matter if you cut throttle, you will get reversed. That's why it is important to lag pursuit him, try to bend around him and cut throttle. Works very well. One of the only situations that setting up a crossing angle in a tater ride is a bad decision :)
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You normally have three options:
1. Reduce throttle and try to saddle. (Pending on your aircraft)
2. Hit wep and climb out and hammer head back down.
3. Try to set up a quick snap shot and climb out(what I normally do w/ the K4)
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I usually try to mis-time my break and roll so that I get shot and lose a wing or an engine. I find that simplifies it greatly for me.
Also, many other times I'm below the bad guy, so I avoid having to defeat the BRD by not diving down on guys.
I know that the getting killed over and over takes a lot of patience and dedication, and it's not for everyone granted. But you eventually get a taste for it and don't even mind dying at all anymore.
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I like it best if my opponent chops throttle, and either tries to saddle up on me or tries to roll with me in lag, so I'd recommend going with other options than that.
What makes the BRD the most challenging is an opponent who just refuses to play along (by just passing through, avoiding my guns, and reacquiring his perch for another attack). If he does that, I need to set it all up again, and again, burning E and time in the process.
Keep in mind, the guy using the BRD aggressively really doesn't want a drastic speed differential between himself and his attacker. What he wants instead is to be nearly as fast as his attacker, but with exaggerated closure. The defender regulates the closure by adjusting his angle-off, getting his attacker to approach from some amount of side angle.
The beauty of that tactic is that as he finishes his roll and places himself on your six, he's at almost the same speed as his attacker, which allows for a nice shot. If the attacker cuts speed, he sets himself up to fall into this trap. About the only thing he could do worse would be to attempt a rope as he finds himself out front of the defender.
There's a significant difference between the "defender" who uses the BRD defensively (by slowing down compared to his attacker), and the one who uses it aggressively to snatch his attackers scalp (by keeping his speed up in relation to his attacker). In the first case, slowing your attack, rolling along in lag, etc might work quite well. In the second case though, that "defender" probably has a big smile on his face as he watches you out of his high rear view, then high side-rear, then side rear, then dropping below/behind his tail, only to pop out in his high opposite-side six, then directly below him as he's inverted, then in his up-front view following a path right through his cross-hairs (but he'll shoot you before you get to his cross-hairs).
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I like it best if my opponent chops throttle, and either tries to saddle up on me or tries to roll with me in lag, so I'd recommend going with other options than that.
What makes the BRD the most challenging is an opponent who just refuses to play along (by just passing through, avoiding my guns, and reacquiring his perch for another attack). If he does that, I need to set it all up again, and again, burning E and time in the process.
Keep in mind, the guy using the BRD aggressively really doesn't want a drastic speed differential between himself and his attacker. What he wants instead is to be nearly as fast as his attacker, but with exaggerated closure. The defender regulates the closure by adjusting his angle-off, getting his attacker to approach from some amount of side angle.
The beauty of that tactic is that as he finishes his roll and places himself on your six, he's at almost the same speed as his attacker, which allows for a nice shot. If the attacker cuts speed, he sets himself up to fall into this trap. About the only thing he could do worse would be to attempt a rope as he finds himself out front of the defender.
There's a significant difference between the "defender" who uses the BRD defensively (by slowing down compared to his attacker), and the one who uses it aggressively to snatch his attackers scalp (by keeping his speed up in relation to his attacker). In the first case, slowing your attack, rolling along in lag, etc might work quite well. In the second case though, that "defender" probably has a big smile on his face as he watches you out of his high rear view, then high side-rear, then side rear, then dropping below/behind his tail, only to pop out in his high opposite-side six, then directly below him as he's inverted, then in his up-front view following a path right through his cross-hairs (but he'll shoot you before you get to his cross-hairs).
MtnMan you dont have a trainer tag anymore?!?!? Awesome explanation sir :salute
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Great post MTN, you are spot on with the last paragraph about what an aggressive BRD user will be aiming for and thinking as the attacker dumps E.
The feeling I got from the OP was that he was tierd of simply not being able to saddle up without being reversed. If that is the case, the desire to fight for a kill not just make a high speed pass is there, then perhaps dumping E and trying to get equal or just slower than your target is still the best option.
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MtnMan you dont have a trainer tag anymore?!?!? Awesome explanation sir :salute
Due to lack of time, I decided it would be best if I went into a sort of (hopefully temporary) "retirement" from the Trainer Corps. I'm not able to give the position the attention it deserves at this point...
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As Mtnman said. We want you to follow us :lol. I smile when I see that higher energy guy trying to pull down toward me. I teach this to all my students, for a quick reversal on a opponent closing from your 6. I also teach my students not to fall for it as well, when it is pulled on them. As Grizz and others have mentioned, going up and resetting on your perch is your safest and often best option. I normally tell my students, "beware the guy who doesn't follow and goes up, you now found a veteran".
:salute
BigRat
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BRD is about the best move I've found with jug, I can often get the attacker side by side, where 1/4 second is the difference between he on my 6 and me on HIS 6, (VERY exciting at this point...the 2 of you are staring at each others pilots) can't quite close the deal, alas.
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Don't forget your SA sir.... Who is around you?
VERY WELL WRITTEN ......... it kind of depends what the plane matchup is.
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Last night, I tried something new when I encountered this and think I may have found something. I wish I would have recorded it but in the heat of combat, I got caught up in the moment. I was flying a pony on the tail of a Corsair when it happened (no it wasn't Dogg). I had more E but it wasn't huge. While pulling lead and shooting at him (he's buried in my dash at the moment), I noticed him appearing, going vertical out of the front left quarter of my cockpit (we were turning right). As soon as I saw that, I leveled my wings, pulled up and barrel rolled opposite his. I exaggerated the vertical in my roll (but not too much cause I did not want to create too much separation) and soon saw him come out of his roll. He then tried to point his plane directly at me. Now I'm above him looking out my right rear quarter panel at him. I can see hes trying hard to pull up into me, there's about 1.5K of distance between us.
At this point, I could have aborted the downward side of my roll and pulled up for a possible rope; go level and extend, dive and extend. Instead, I chose to go on the offensive and try to hang on as much E as possible. I pulled back slightly on the throttle, dropped a notch of flaps, put myself in lag pursuit and kicked right rudder. My pony whipped around like a top and was diving toward him with him coming up at me. I got my nose around faster than he did, went into lead pursuit and pulled off a snap shot.. Boom!
So what did I get out of this? There is a fine line between playing it cool and preserving E and then flying aggressively and cautiously expending E. In this situation, staying aggressive allowed me to burn off alot of his E and keeping the pressure on him.
Let me know if this tactic works for you.
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My question would be, why even chase the hog down? High YOYO and watch him flop around a bit below you, trying to find out where you went. You will now be above him in a higher E state. You now control the fight and can B&Z on the hog as much as you want. Hog can't fight up very well at all (too heavy), use this to your advantage. Starting just about any rolling turning fight against a hog co E with a mustang will get you quickly killed with a competent hog stick. It out rolls and out turns a pony, so why give it the chance. Use your planes strength's, against his weaknesses.
:salute
BigRat
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My question would be, why even chase the hog down? High YOYO and watch him flop around a bit below you, trying to find out where you went. You will now be above him in a higher E state. You now control the fight and can B&Z on the hog as much as you want. Hog can't fight up very well at all (too heavy), use this to your advantage. Starting just about any rolling turning fight against a hog co E with a mustang will get you quickly killed with a competent hog stick. It out rolls and out turns a pony, so why give it the chance. Use your planes strength's, against his weaknesses.
:salute
BigRat
Quite right old man. I thought it was Dogg and reallllllly wanted to killem bad. :joystick:
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We all of had the fangs through the floorboard have to kill that guy moments. Even though I know better, I still find myself doing things like that :lol. As I get older I just tend to have less of them :old:
:salute
BigRat
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This thread has raised a few interesting questions for me that maybe one of you wise pilots can help with :airplane:
Most BRD I see shown in videos involves going vertical first, such as rolling 45 degrees right, pulling up, and then throwing right rudder while rolling left (or vise verse for the other way). However, when would it be beneficial to roll your lift vector below the horizon and start a BRD from the bottom of the loop? My guess is if you cut back on throttle a bit that the red guy following you through maneuver might overshoot you with his extra E.
Something in this thread also made me think of an issue I've found myself having. I usually fly the 109's. I'm far from a great pilot, but love the planes and the challenges they intail. However, I've noticed that sometimes when going down to engage a low con from his 6 or doing this after the initial merge, he will pull up into the vertical quicker than I can, thus I must extend past him and attempt a reversal. Should I instead hang on to my alt and follow the con from my current alt, or descend a bit to trick him into thinking I'm diving towards him?
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hey Owl, I'm not one of the wise players here I know little of the physics behind our game. But I do like the BRD theory alot, so I will attempt some answers.
To the first, I think you have opened a very good point. You are right in thinking it's not always worth doing a typical barrel roll. The BRD is just one way of using speed differences and predicted flight paths to get from infront to behind your attacker. You can ofcourse attempt to get from A to B any way you want. The BRD is just one example. There are lots of other ways and more complex spiral and flat/vertical tricks to get from infront to behind your attacker. Work with waht feels right to you.
The second is again up to you to work out what feels more comfortable. Being in a 109 (unless you're talking the 109E) you safest options might often be caution and retaining E. Aggression is up to you at anytime in your attack. That is the benifit of being the attacker, it's your call how to fight. Tricking the enemy is a lose term but it fits well. if you can confuse or mislead the enemy at anytime, it can only work in your favour. If you want to make it so that the victim cannot turn vertically so easily around you, it means slowing down and flying in wide to change the geometry of your attack, perhaps.
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The second is again up to you to work out what feels more comfortable. Being in a 109 (unless you're talking the 109E) you safest options might often be caution and retaining E. Aggression is up to you at anytime in your attack. That is the benifit of being the attacker, it's your call how to fight. Tricking the enemy is a lose term but it fits well. if you can confuse or mislead the enemy at anytime, it can only work in your favour. If you want to make it so that the victim cannot turn vertically so easily around you, it means slowing down and flying in wide to change the geometry of your attack, perhaps.
Could you give me a specific example of the scenario in bold? I usually fly the K-4 or G-14 (sometimes I'll try the G-6). I've tried chopping throttle and pulling up for a lead persuit as I notice them going for the vertical, but even at 800ish out they'll usually beat me. That I can remember, this has happened against a spit and a pony, my guess is that their ability to gain angles at their speed is greater than mine is at 300+ MPH. :headscratch:
I had to retype all of this due to an error so I hope this is still making sense.
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no fun at all!
QFT. wish everyone felt the same way so much more time and pretend fuel could be saved.
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Could you give me a specific example of the scenario in bold? I usually fly the K-4 or G-14 (sometimes I'll try the G-6). I've tried chopping throttle and pulling up for a lead persuit as I notice them going for the vertical, but even at 800ish out they'll usually beat me. That I can remember, this has happened against a spit and a pony, my guess is that their ability to gain angles at their speed is greater than mine is at 300+ MPH. :headscratch:
I had to retype all of this due to an error so I hope this is still making sense.
I drew a rubbish sketch to see if i can explain what I mean.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/fig1.JPG)
A) shows an attack being defeated by the BRD. The green dot represents the attacker's missed shot. The yellow dot indicates the defender's succesfull shot. The black cross lines are a vague attempt at showing a timeline. The center cross line shows that by the time both aircraft have reached half way along their flight path the attacker has already overshot. I know it is only 2D but that is the theory of the BRD in the vertical aspect.
B) shows the exact same defensive move (for the purpose of demonstration only). Only this time the attacker goes wide, diving lower than the previous diagram and not trying to make the same snapshot as before. The yellow dot indicates a succesfull shot by the attacker. The wide angle to start means that when the two 'half-way' black cross lines are reached the attacker is still way behind the defender, not allowing the defender to force the overshoot. The attacker then has possition below and behind the target with which to set up a higher % snapshot, or try to saddle up.
In both diagrams I have assumed that no throttle work was used by either combatant. They simply were using angles. Obviously it is more complicated when we add the horizontal axis and the factor of speed. But I hope that explains what I was describing. I will search for a film with an example, if I have one I will post it.
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This is really good stuff. I want to spice up this conversation even more. On more than one occasion, I've seen 4 or 5 green icons whirling around a single red icon low on the deck. On more than one occasion, I decided to leave it alone and watch what unfolds from above.
On some of these occasions, I've seen the red icon do BRD after BRD one direction and then another eventually killing most if not all those green guys swirling and turning in that furball. My question is how do these guys keep up their E to do this time and time again?
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My question is how do these guys keep up their E to do this time and time again?
The simplest answer: planes can climb too.
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The simplest answer: planes can climb too.
Simple question: what the heck does that mean and how does it relate to what we are talking about?
The guy doing the BRDs cannot climb because he's being continually engaged and on the defensive. My question was how these guys manage to keep their E up while doing this.
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If the doras still your flavour of the month, the answer is you let them start the overshoot, roll to the opposite direction and drag them up in a spiral, they will be looking for a shot on you as they expect you to overshoot above and in front of them, the change of direction to follow you burns the E they needed for a shot and sets them up for a rope and bag.
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Simple question: what the heck does that mean and how does it relate to what we are talking about?
The guy doing the BRDs cannot climb because he's being continually engaged and on the defensive. My question was how these guys manage to keep their E up while doing this.
It simply means that barrel rolls don't take that much E. Think rolling scissors. And they don't have more E than that. And if they'd have it, they wouldn't need to be on the defensive all the time. All they do is maintaining certain level of E necessary to perform that maneuver. As long as plane is capable of accelerating in level flight and with that climb, they can do it forever.
Point of defensive barrel roll is not really to gain E, it's to create overshoot or at least get other guy out of sync.
As to the how to defeat it. It depends on relative E states ie closure rate. There's no single method.
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Simple question: what the heck does that mean and how does it relate to what we are talking about?
The guy doing the BRDs cannot climb because he's being continually engaged and on the defensive. My question was how these guys manage to keep their E up while doing this.
The main reason is your barrel roll defense is defeating multiple bandits at once and there are significant periods of time between attackers reaching a threat position allowing the defender to build energy back up.
Most multiple versus one engagements result in the multiple all being in the horizontal plane and the attacks are spaced with plenty of time to build energy if the defender is focused on that and not pursuing the bandit in his forward quarter.
Any well trained wing pair will allow a maneuvering bandit no time to recover energy. The idea of coordinated tactics is to keep a high level of pressure on the bandit. Most guys interpret that to mean trying to stay saddled. What it really means is pushing for an easy shot and repositioning when the shot gets harder. As soon as the defender initiates his defense the attacker should transition to the free fighter role and position for his next pass. His wing man should be reaching a shooting position as the defender is getting about 180 degrees into his defense. If the bandit sees him he will probably have enough energy to evade and the original attacker must be in a threat position at the 180 degree spot of this second defensive break. Rinse and repeat.
If the bandit gets much past 3 or 4 breaks without dying there isn't enough pressure on him.
Example film of Double attack pressure (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/doubleattack2.ahf)
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You now control the fight and can B&Z on the hog as much as you want.
Just please don't bore the poor overmatched hog driver. Kill him quick. After three passes without a kill, you lost. I promise, if I'm BnZing you, I"m seriously trying to saddle up on the third pass at the latest. The eight-pass-then-run BnZ attack is too much like my high school sex life, all anticipation and no action. Hmm, that's like my married sex life, too. Damn.
HONK!
Gooss