Defeating the defensive barrel roll

[mtnman]

MtnMan you dont have a trainer tag anymore?!?!? Awesome explanation sir

Due to lack of time, I decided it would be best if I went into a sort of (hopefully temporary) "retirement" from the Trainer Corps.  I'm not able to give the position the attention it deserves at this point...

[Big Rat]

As Mtnman said.  We want you to follow us . I smile when I see that higher energy guy trying to pull down toward me. I teach this to all my students, for a quick reversal on a opponent closing from your 6.  I also teach my students not to fall for it as well, when it is pulled on them.  As Grizz and others have mentioned, going up and resetting on your perch is your safest and often best option.  I normally tell my students, "beware the guy who doesn't follow and goes up, you now found a veteran".

 
BigRat 

[bj229r]

BRD is about the best move  I've found with jug, I can often get the attacker side by side, where 1/4 second is the difference between he on my 6 and me on HIS 6, (VERY exciting at this point...the 2 of you are staring at each others pilots) can't quite close the deal, alas.

[LLogann]

Don't forget your SA sir.... Who is around you?

VERY WELL WRITTEN     ......... it kind of depends what the plane matchup is.

[HighGTrn]

Last night, I tried something new when I encountered this and think I may have found something. I wish I would have recorded it but in the heat of combat, I got caught up in the moment. I was flying a pony on the tail of a Corsair when it happened (no it wasn't Dogg). I had more E but it wasn't huge. While pulling lead and shooting at him (he's buried in my dash at the moment), I noticed him appearing, going vertical out of the front left quarter of my cockpit (we were turning right). As soon as I saw that, I leveled my wings, pulled up and barrel rolled opposite his. I exaggerated the vertical in my roll (but not too much cause I did not want to create too much separation) and soon saw him come out of his roll. He then tried to point his plane directly at me. Now I'm above him looking out my right rear quarter panel at him. I can see hes trying hard to pull up into me, there's about 1.5K of distance between us.

At this point, I could have aborted the downward side of my roll and pulled up for a possible rope; go level and extend, dive and extend. Instead, I chose to go on the offensive and try to hang on as much E as possible. I pulled back slightly on the throttle, dropped a notch of flaps, put myself in lag pursuit and kicked right rudder. My pony whipped around like a top and was diving toward him with him coming up at me. I got my nose around faster than he did, went into lead pursuit and pulled off a snap shot.. Boom!

So what did I get out of this? There is a fine line between playing it cool and preserving E and then flying aggressively and cautiously expending E. In this situation, staying aggressive allowed me to burn off alot of his E and keeping the pressure on him.

Let me know if this tactic works for you.

[Big Rat]

My question would be, why even chase the hog down?  High YOYO and watch him flop around a bit below you, trying to find out where you went.  You will now be above him in a higher E state.  You now control the fight and can B&Z on the hog as much as you want.  Hog can't fight up very well at all (too heavy), use this to your advantage.  Starting just about any rolling turning fight against a hog co E with a mustang will get you quickly killed with a competent hog stick.  It out rolls and out turns a pony, so why give it the chance.  Use your planes strength's, against his weaknesses.

 
BigRat

[HighGTrn]

My question would be, why even chase the hog down?  High YOYO and watch him flop around a bit below you, trying to find out where you went.  You will now be above him in a higher E state.  You now control the fight and can B&Z on the hog as much as you want.  Hog can't fight up very well at all (too heavy), use this to your advantage.  Starting just about any rolling turning fight against a hog co E with a mustang will get you quickly killed with a competent hog stick.  It out rolls and out turns a pony, so why give it the chance.  Use your planes strength's, against his weaknesses.

 
BigRat

Quite right old man. I thought it was Dogg and reallllllly wanted to killem bad. 

[Big Rat]

We all of had the fangs through the floorboard have to kill that guy moments.  Even though I know better, I still find myself doing things like that .  As I get older I just tend to have less of them

 
BigRat

[Owlblink]

This thread has raised a few interesting questions for me that maybe one of you wise pilots can help with 

Most BRD I see shown in videos involves going vertical first, such as rolling 45 degrees right, pulling up, and then throwing right rudder while rolling left (or vise verse for the other way). However, when would it be beneficial to roll your lift vector below the horizon and start a BRD from the bottom of the loop? My guess is if you cut back on throttle a bit that the red guy following you through maneuver might overshoot you with his extra E.

Something in this thread also made me think of an issue I've found myself having. I usually fly the 109's. I'm far from a great pilot, but love the planes and the challenges they intail. However, I've noticed that sometimes when going down to engage a low con from his 6 or doing this after the initial merge, he will pull up into the vertical quicker than I can, thus I must extend past him and attempt a reversal. Should I instead hang on to my alt and follow the con from my current alt, or descend a bit to trick him into thinking I'm diving towards him?

[mechanic]

hey Owl, I'm not one of the wise players here I know little of the physics behind our game. But I do like the BRD theory alot, so I will attempt some answers.

To the first, I think you have opened a very good point. You are right in thinking it's not always worth doing a typical barrel roll. The BRD is just one way of using speed differences and predicted flight paths to get from infront to behind your attacker. You can ofcourse attempt to get from A to B any way you want. The BRD is just one example. There are lots of other ways and more complex spiral and flat/vertical tricks to get from infront to behind your attacker. Work with waht feels right to you.

The second is again up to you to work out what feels more comfortable. Being in a 109 (unless you're talking the 109E) you safest options might often be caution and retaining E. Aggression is up to you at anytime in your attack. That is the benifit of being the attacker, it's your call how to fight. Tricking the enemy is a lose term but it fits well. if you can confuse or mislead the enemy at anytime, it can only work in your favour. If you want to make it so that the victim cannot turn vertically so easily around you, it means slowing down and flying in wide to change the geometry of your attack, perhaps.

[Owlblink]

The second is again up to you to work out what feels more comfortable. Being in a 109 (unless you're talking the 109E) you safest options might often be caution and retaining E. Aggression is up to you at anytime in your attack. That is the benifit of being the attacker, it's your call how to fight. Tricking the enemy is a lose term but it fits well. if you can confuse or mislead the enemy at anytime, it can only work in your favour. If you want to make it so that the victim cannot turn vertically so easily around you, it means slowing down and flying in wide to change the geometry of your attack, perhaps.

Could you give me a specific example of the scenario in bold? I usually fly the K-4 or G-14 (sometimes I'll try the G-6). I've tried chopping throttle and pulling up for a lead persuit as I notice them going for the vertical, but even at 800ish out they'll usually beat me. That I can remember, this has happened against a spit and a pony, my guess is that their ability to gain angles at their speed is greater than mine is at 300+ MPH. 
I had to retype all of this due to an error so I hope this is still making sense.

[L0nGb0w]

no fun at all!

QFT. wish everyone felt the same way so much more time and pretend fuel could be saved.

[mechanic]

Could you give me a specific example of the scenario in bold? I usually fly the K-4 or G-14 (sometimes I'll try the G-6). I've tried chopping throttle and pulling up for a lead persuit as I notice them going for the vertical, but even at 800ish out they'll usually beat me. That I can remember, this has happened against a spit and a pony, my guess is that their ability to gain angles at their speed is greater than mine is at 300+ MPH. 
I had to retype all of this due to an error so I hope this is still making sense.

I drew a rubbish sketch to see if i can explain what I mean.



A) shows an attack being defeated by the BRD. The green dot represents the attacker's missed shot. The yellow dot indicates the defender's succesfull shot. The black cross lines are a vague attempt at showing a timeline. The center cross line shows that by the time both aircraft have reached half way along their flight path the attacker has already overshot. I know it is only 2D but that is the theory of the BRD in the vertical aspect.

B) shows the exact same defensive move (for the purpose of demonstration only). Only this time the attacker goes wide, diving lower than the previous diagram and not trying to make the same snapshot as before. The yellow dot indicates a succesfull shot by the attacker. The wide angle to start means that when the two 'half-way' black cross lines are reached the attacker is still way behind the defender, not allowing the defender to force the overshoot. The attacker then has possition below and behind the target with which to set up a higher % snapshot, or try to saddle up.


In both diagrams I have assumed that no throttle work was used by either combatant. They simply were using angles. Obviously it is more complicated when we add the horizontal axis and the factor of speed. But I hope that explains what I was describing. I will search for a film with an example, if I have one I will post it.

[HighGTrn]

This is really good stuff. I want to spice up this conversation even more. On more than one occasion, I've seen 4 or 5 green icons whirling around a single red icon low on the deck. On more than one occasion, I decided to leave it alone and watch what unfolds from above.

On some of these occasions, I've seen the red icon do BRD after BRD one direction and then another eventually killing most if not all those green guys swirling and turning in that furball. My question is how do these guys keep up their E to do this time and time again?

[2bighorn]

My question is how do these guys keep up their E to do this time and time again?

The simplest answer: planes can climb too.