Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Krusty on December 18, 2010, 06:10:48 PM
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So... What was with the 4-6 squadrons of B-26s that hit 143 at about the time everybody was landing and RTB had been called? The one of them I killed was shown to have taken off at start of frame (JMAC) and then 90 minutes later finally arrived en masse over 143 with his squad mates at about 26k-27k alt.
What's up with that? Seriously? I'm sure it breaks T+60 or something. I know the field was hit prior, but THESE guys did nothing at all for 90 minutes waiting for everybody to land and tower out before hitting the field. Surely it's a breach of ettiquette or rules or something?
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:huh :O :rofl
LOL, Sounds like a squad of noobs.
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I joined as a gunner for the long flight. The field was hit at almost the exact time it was supposed to according to orders. The execution of the orders left plenty of time to hit target and rtb for the most part safely. Hitting it when the defense was weakest and pursuit would be limited. The field was hit earlier. The VH was down prior. I thought they did a pretty good job with the drop and showed a lot of patience. :salute
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:huh :O :rofl
LOL, Sounds like a squad of noobs.
You're such a seasoned internet warrior Oaktree.
(http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/dork-is-cool-14.jpg?w=500&h=622)
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:confused:
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You're such a seasoned internet warrior Oaktree.
(http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/dork-is-cool-14.jpg?w=500&h=622)
:lol
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I joined as a gunner for the long flight. The field was hit at almost the exact time it was supposed to according to orders. The execution of the orders left plenty of time to hit target and rtb for the most part safely. Hitting it when the defense was weakest and pursuit would be limited. The field was hit earlier. The VH was down prior. I thought they did a pretty good job with the drop and showed a lot of patience. :salute
You're thinking of the wrong raid. These buffs hit 143 with formations at T+ 95
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Seems to me that every time there's a late-frame strike - from either side - there's someone who whines about it. In one FSO, I was on the defense side of a late-frame zeke strike - and I'm talking about 5 minutes left in the frame with no chance for them to rtb when they struck the CV group. The late-frame strike you're talking about here was well planned and all surviving bombers landed with five minutes to spare.
143 was struck before T+60 by a squad of B-26's which were able to take down three hangars. I see no breach of published rules. The main strike force hit the target with explosive ordinance well before T+60 and the fighters with them were engaged. Why do people insist on making up their own "special rules" and expect every asset to hit every target before T+60 and then have everyone land and tower out after 90 minutes? Maybe people want these events to only run for 90 minutes because they have A.D.D. or don't have the discipline to fly for the full two hours that the event is scheduled for.
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Krusty - No that was planned mission and I planned it. The FSO rules were followed with a creditable squad sized attack prior to H+60. In fact you had one medium and one small squad hit A143 prior to H+60 or about 15-18 pilots in total. Your own log shows that you engaged and shot down both fighters and bombers from this effort. The fighter sweep tried to remain east of the field (deception) and the bombers (main effort 01) coming in from the southwest 10 - 15 minutes later. The 325th VFG (main effort 02) used a round about route to climb to 24K in B-26s and come in unescorted at or about H+90. After flying 350 miles to reach the target I may have been off by a minute or two. Yes the timing of the attack was to come over A143 while enemy refueling and rearming operations were being done. I have found it to be tactically safer that way when your unescorted. Our last B-26 landed at H+117 at A141. There were 7 cells of B-26's used or 27 in total and I believe we lost 5 single AC to the fighter defenses. I know I saw a single 109 east of A143 that chased me and gave up. I heard reports of 2 more 190's attacking the group. Your log also shows that you engaged the 325th VFG bombers. I though the defenders still over A143 (yourself included) did a good job of defending against our attack and it was heavier than I thought. :aok :salute
Oakranger - The 325th VFG isn't a "Squad of noobs" and has been around for a long time in this game. In fact you should try planning a bombing mission which involves taking a bomber that was never intended for high altitude bombing and fly it at the upper end of its proformance, fly 350 miles half of which was over enemy controlled areas with 7 different flight legs. Avoid all contact until the bombs were away. Strike the target at the planned altitude and within a 2 minutes of the planned drop time in 1 pass. And land your last AC 90 miles away with 3 minutes to spare. The planning only took an hour prior to lift off and required constint recalculating during flight to compensate for winds, AC proformance, enemy locations and coordination's with other supporting squads in route. O and get it right on the first try without any rehearsals or "Flying offline" to "pre fly" the mission.
Your comments are offensive to myself and the 325th VFG, ask that you keep them to yourself when referring to my squad in the future. :salute
Viper 61
Operations Officer
325th VFG
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Per the raw logs A143 was hit by the 334th FS "The Eagles" at T+ 34. They had 6 formations of B26s and escorts. The 325th then hit A143 at T+91 with 7 formations of B26s.
All Allied targets had a credible strike force assigned and hit their targets before the T+60. No violation there.
Also the 325th who conducted the separate late frame strike hit their target, were engaged, and survivors managed to land before end frame (roughly 2 minutes before frame end). So it was not a suicide or kamikaze run.
They simply conducted a two part attack. First wave to engaged your defenders and exhaust their ammo and fuel and bomb the base (first wave took down 3 hangars). Then a second wave sent in to hopefully take advantage of the exhausted defenders being either at lower alt, needing to re-arm, being disorganized, or all of the above.
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Just heard word from setup CM and he said he called a RTB for all sides at T+110 after he got confirmation by both sides CiCs they were calling their troops home.
So At T+91 there was no CM RTB announcement.
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You're thinking of the wrong raid. These buffs hit 143 with formations at T+ 95
No, I was gunning for Viper. Man, I was in there for over an hour. Thanks for waking me from my nap Viper. :joystick:
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Bannor - Always appreciate a good gunner and your time sticking it out with us. I know you were itching for that 109 that was chasing us to get just a little closer before you blasted him. It could have been Krusty!! :lol Thanks for hanging in with us if you ever need a gunner let me know :salute
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GD thank you for the clearification :salute
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Ghostdancer... the intent of the T+60 is to prevent AVOIDING the fight. To prevent folks from orbiting for hours then landing, and THEN having the bad guys come in with no defenders.
While technically this field was hit bfore T+60 (by a different group) these particular bombers flew around the entire frame AVOIDING fights so that they might rack up free points at the end with no opposition. I know the FIELD was hit before T+60, but these guys did eff-all for 95 minutes trying to hide.
Hiding behind technicalities doesn't deny the fact they broke the spirit of the rules.
The folks I ran into earlier were spitfires. They sure had no problems chasing planes back to our field looking for easy/wounded targets. However, it still remains that all of their bombers pilots were engaged in an underhanded and unacceptable tactic.
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I have never found Viper or his squad to engage in anything underhanded. Quite the opposite. Many times in the past he has checked with me to make sure something was within the rules of FSO. His orders are as well planned and thoughtfully considered as any I have seen in the FSO years.
If I CiC wants to strike a target with a smaller, but credible force, then later in the frame with a larger force it is well within the rules. I am not about to make some kind of rule change that would force everyone to attack a target within T+60.
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Gotta say I think Viper's OK on this. Heck it sounds like something I might have done myself ;). It's not as if he sent 3 or 4 Jabo fighters in to lob bombs at the base and call that an attack prior to T+60. Apparently there was a credible attack by a fair group of bombers and their fighter escorts well before that--which is completely OK. That the base was hit again quite a bit after isn't against the rules or as I see it the intent or spirit of the rules. I was long gone by the time the cease hostilities was called so I don't know what happened there. I know that usually the case is both COs are asked by the CM if there are any ongoing attacks and if not then an RTB is called. Now if one side fibbed a lil about that and hit the base anyway then yeah I'd say that's right out. But unless that RTB gets called by the CM the spirit is also that it's a 2 hour frame and unless your CO gives you another assignment you're supposed to defend your area the whole frame.
BTW Krusty I totally get what you're saying about just flying around "avoiding" a fight. I just disagree that this qualifies. They were in bombers after all. The idea of a bomber mission is to hit the target and get home. Without any escort they did a good job of that. Now if they were in fighters and just hanging around the perimeter waiting for you to get into the pattern to just vulch ya that'd naturally be a different story.
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DD / Drano thanks for the compliments. Always a pleasure flying with your squads as well.
Krusty if you don't like the rules then recommend a change. Lets hear some options or ideas..... The CM's always listen to new or good ideas.
My opinion is that the rules are good to go. The rules as written allow for late frame strikes which keeps the squads in the general areas defending targets. Without that rule the arena and event would in most cases turn in large furballs after H+60 because there would be no need to defend any targets after H+60 which is not in the spirit of the FSO as I understand it.
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Actually Daddog, the first force that hit A143 was larger in composition than the second force. It consisted of 6 Bombers formations of 334th, 5 escorts from the 325th, and 4 escorts from The Unforgiven (18 bombers and 9 fighters). The second force, T+91 strike, was 7 bomber formations of the 325th (21 bombers).
As to the attacks a credible attack force of 6 B26 formations with escorts attacked A143 at T+34. It was engaged by the defenders and lost 13 B26s out of 18 to the defenders. The defenders did not orbit for hours without a chance of combat and were engaged by a credible force. It did 125 pts of damage out of 195 pts done to A143.
A second attack force of 7 B26 formations hit A143 at T+91. It was also engaged by defenders and lost 5 B26s out of 21 to the defenders actions. This strike did 70 pts of damage to the base (note they lost 75 points in bombers). This attack was not a suicide attack that had no chance of returning home (such as an attack at T+110 would be). The survivors did make it home and land.
The combined strikes destroyed 63.4% of A143.
The intent of the T+60 rule was to make sure that the DEFENDERS got a reasonable chance to see action in a set period of time. It was to make sure that the DEFENDERS did not orbit a base for 90 minutes or more only to see the attackers show up at the last possible moment in the frame to make their run.
As for the attackers, actually the goal of the attackers is to have their bombers come in with no defenders present over target. They try to do this by various methods such as:
1) Making their runs from an unexpected quarter.
2) Trying to trick the defenders to be out of position so they can't hit the bombers until after bombs are released.
2) Sweeping the target first with fighters to take out the defenders and then have the bombers coming in still under the T+60 deadline.
3) Sending in a low attack force to sucker the defenders to the deck and then having a high attack force come a bit later.
4) Having one attack force hit from one direction, pulling the defenders that way and having another attack force come in from another, now open direction.
5) etc., etc., etc.
Now as for this particular gambit the allies sent in a large bomber force with escorts first. They got chewed up and exhausted your guys ammo and fuel, and banged up the defenders a bit. They waited 60 minutes for their second force to come in. Hoping that high altitude would protect them since they had no escorts. They took a gamble and by waiting so long which gave the defenders ample time to rearm, refuel, and get back to altitude.
Remember a frame is not over until either the CM says END FRAME or a CM says okay everybody RTB. Until one or the other it is game on.
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From reading everything that has been Posted it seems like No Rules have been broken in this Frame, Yes a First wave of bombers attacked the above mentioned base with Escorts and did the initial raid. As a Pilot involved with this Mission as the Second Raid with no Escorts. I think there were 2 things planned with our Mission Element of Surprise since the Enemy planes had to rearm and refuel and the Patience we had while flying this mission. I know I am new to FSO and not trying to over step anyones boundaries but I have to Say the 325Th Checker Tails and Viper are Top notch Squad and would not break the rules in anyway and seems like we were within the Allotted time frame for this mission.
Salute
Crazy8s
P.S. I think we just outsmarted the Enemy this time and they did not expect the last minute attack on their base.
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Gee... allies had less than 20 pilots in the air, we had 70-80.... There's a reason we weren't expecting it. You'll find with more exposure to FSO that hiding and avoiding the fight are not what this event is about. It would be a valid tactic if you had been sent in 30 minutes after the fact, but waiting 95 minutes after launch?
That's the frame CO trying to exploit the rules to get cheap (i.e. easy) points. Bad form. Bad form, old chap.
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I understand what Krusty is saying, however, CM are correct that no rules where broken. This is one of these "loop hole" issues that can have some ppl bitter as this is not the first time such of a issue like this happen.
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Seeing as I was FSO team lead the last time a major re-working the T+60 rule was done. I will chime in.
The intention of the last rule re-evaluation, was that all targets would be attacked with a sizable legitimate attack force by T+60. Attacking a target with 2 spits at T+50 then attacking the same base at T+90 with 10 B-17's, is NOT acceptable. However attacking a base at T+50 with a sizable group of B-26's then attacking it again later with another group of B-26's would be legitimate (IMHO). Normally that second attacking group would be a strike group that is on clean-up duty. Normally you would not expect that group to have been flying around for 90min waiting to attack, but that is not breaking any rules. At worst that would be a grey area move. But I personally don't see a big problem with it. What is the difference in that and a group re-arming and then attacking the same base at T+90?
Now, personally I don't think I would want my squad to fly around for an hour and a half doing nothing, only to attack while most are on the ground, but if you can get a squad to be OK with that, then I guess all is good.
It is a viable tactic. The bad side is you are reducing your first strike numbers by keeping AC in reserve for later. In theory you may have better offensive statistics, but you will probably suffer higher losses early. Plus you have to ask people to sit around for 90min doing almost nothing.
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Krusty, you do realize that these non stop whine fests of yours make you a laughing stock don't you?. It would be different if you had a valid point, but you seldom do.
shamus
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My point was as valid as those that complained of a chute on the rearm pad shooting them through the cockpit glass....
the fact you choose only to troll discredits you.
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GD - Sled: Good points / Stats and comments :salute
Drano - Thank you for your post / comments and experience :salute
Krusty - to your comments: And I assume that your referring to the 325th VFG - as for 325th VFG "exposure" to the FSO. The 325th VFG was one of the first squads in the FSO and has a long histroy supporting the FSO events. The 325th VFG CO "CUTT" has been a part of the FSO from its very beginnings and his player number is extremely low placing him AHII at nearly the very beginning. As for me I've been involved in the FSO since 2003 and I have been a side CIC for every 325th VFG tasker since 2005 (8 CIC duty frames). So as for "exposure" I think we have that one covered. I fully understand the FSO rules and employ them using the "intent" of the CM's. And DD pointed that to you above very well.
Your comment to "Valid Tactic": As a retired Military member with 22 years. All tactics are valid, some work better than others. The 325th VFG Attack against A143 utilized the valid tactics of Timing / Force multipliers / Coordination / Deception and Route selection.
Your comment to the "Frame CIC": Your incorrect I stated very clearly in the opening remark in my first post that I planned that mission. The Frame CIC did not order the 325th VFG to conduct a late frame strike. His orders were to attack and distroy A143 which the 325th VFG did following the rules and intent of the FSO.
Oakranger - The rules for allowing late frame strikes isn't a "loophole" in the FSO rules. The rules are very clear and 3 CM's have explained them in these posts above, The FSO is a "full" 2 hour event.
Krusty and Oakranger - I understand you didn't like the 325th VFG operation, I get that and so does everyone else. What are your recommendations on how to improve the FSO rules concerning strike times to targets?
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Gee... allies had less than 20 pilots in the air, we had 70-80.... There's a reason we weren't expecting it.
Per the rules I attached to all objectives a cessation of hostilities before end frame can only happen if both the Allied CiC and the Axis CiC agree to it. There was NO such agreement in frame 3 at that time juncture in question. Hostilities were still in place and both sides could still conduct operations as long as they could plan and conduct a strike and get home by end frame. I take a dim view of one way trips. This was not a one way trip.
All the Axis CiC had to do was to ask the setup CM to ask the allied CiC if he was willing to call the frame? If he said yes, THEN you would have known combat activities were no longer being conducted and then I would deem any additional action as null and void. If he said no or there was no response from the Allied CiC then the Axis CiC should have assumed that the Allies were still up to something and that it was not safe to remove his cap yet.
All the Axis CiC and players new was there was X many allied planes in the air and that an end to hostilities was not called / announced by the setup CM. Anything beyond this was an asumption since they did not know their make up, location, disposition or intent.
In the case of A143 the nearest allied base at A141 was about 100 miles away. Having the defenders RTB at with 30 or so minutes left in frame was a risky move since it gives an enemy force time to hit and get home whether they are survivors conducting a second strike or planes that were held back.
- Plane that can do 300 mph can cover 100 miles in 20 min
- Plane that can do 275 mph can cover 101 miles in 22 min
- Plane that can do 250 mph can cover 100 miles in 24 min
- Plane that can do 225 mph can cover 101 miles in 27 min
I don't know if the RTB was a local call at A143 or if indeed the Axis CiC did a general RTB call. If he did he actually exposed his A144 base even worst than A143. Since A143 is only 58 miles away from the nearest allied base A67. Which if the allieds had scraped up an attack force there it would have given them to T+105 to conduct operations and then get home to A67, depending on what aircraft were involved in the secondary attack.
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For my part... I was in the tower when that strike happened and was on of the ones calling it out on country channel. We were all a little amazed that full formations were hitting the target at T+90... and knew it could not have been a second strike. I think we were all like "WTF?" when we saw it. Having said that... after realizing how Viper61 planned it... I have to say "Job well done".
The reason I say that is this... None of us should get used to the old "tried and true" to be thrown at us every frame. A squad that does the unexpected is what keeps FSO interesting.
Should a raid like this become the norm? No. And I dont think we have to worry about that either. What they did was not easy to do in an FSO. There were plenty of things that could have went wrong with the mission. Timing could have been off, fuel calculations could have been off, they could have ran into a scout or patrol... remember they were flying with no escort. The opportunity to do it is also not always going to be there depending on target packages, squad sizes and assignments, available planesets... etc.
But... what it should do is make defending squads and CiC's think harder about getting cap back up over the fields late in the frame. Even if it had been a true second strike, the timing would still have been near perfect. The fact that is was planned that way from the get-go... well... again, "hat's off".
Were the rules bent? No... In my opinion they were taken to the limit of the letter. Viper61 and the 325th played within the same box everyone else did. They just did it differently that we are used to seeing.
:salute
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Krusty and Oakranger - I understand you didn't like the 325th VFG operation, I get that and so does everyone else. What are your recommendations on how to improve the FSO rules concerning strike times to targets?
Hold on there, i never said anything that i do not like 325th operation. It was a smart move at the same time i see what krusty is saying too. As far as the rules, maybe the CM should establish a second time limit for a second strike group that has not yet hit their target.
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As far as the rules, maybe the CM should establish a second time limit for a second strike group that has not yet hit their target.
The problem I see with that is whatever that time mark would be, would be the signal to all defenders that they can stand down. I don't think anything is broken. Let's not try and fix it.
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Sorry for ambiguity, "exposure" comment was to Molson saying he was new to the FSO. That comment was directed at him.
Viper, that wasn't directed at your squad.
However, your quip about all tactics being valid is a farce. In the REAL world perhaps. This isn't the real world. We have 2 hours or so to have a little fun. We have set objectives, set players, set planes, and we have set constructs to help guide the fight.
As I said, while technically legit, this kind of mission is underhanded. In the REAL world it might win you a medal. In here, it's lame duck at best. You've clarified it wasn't a mission outlined by the CiC, just your own concoction...
Probably everybody else would have told you to move it up or not to do that. Except your own squaddies, that is. Naturally squaddies stick together (it's part of being in a squad, we back each other up) but let's hope you're the only guy in FSOs that tries this kind of thing. Otherwise there's no point in showing up.
We might as well have 250 players on the attack side sit on runays for 1.5 hours to save gas, or fly to a land mass, land, turn off engines for 1 hour, and take off again to continue the mission.
We might as well have bombers that intentionally come in at the last minute of frame logs to drop, then suicide bail, hoping the points they earn offsets the loss of the bombers.
No, sir. That dog won't hunt.
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I've flown defensive CAP for 45 minutes with no action other than to land with 5 minutes to spare - because I was tasked to defend a base; which includes being there in case of a late-frame attack. And as I said earlier, we were 1,000' lining up with the carrier to tower out with 5 minutes to go when the CV was attacked by a squad of zekes which had absolutely no chance to rtb. There's a big difference here - the distances involved with those zekes precluded them from getting home in time. That was not the case here in Frame 3 where the bases were close enough to get home within 20 minutes and before end of frame.
With the posts by the CM Team, this thread should have ended. But with each whine post afterwards, all I hear is this:
"I saw action right away, got kills and had fun...I should be able to call it a night early."
"They should have to send all the attackers all at once so I can rack up more kills and spend the last 30 minutes in the tower drinking beer instead."
"They should change the rules because I don't want to have to fly the whole two hours."
It is a game. We play for fun. We play because we want to have a small taste of what it might have been like - albeit without the real life-or-death consequences. With a recreation of historical scenarios, one cannot expect white-knuckle action the whole two hours. I think the Rules and the players present a good balance between action and creativity.
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" With a recreation of historical scenarios, one cannot expect white-knuckle action the whole two hours. I think the Rules and the players present a good balance between action and creativity".
Well said ImADot. If somebody wants high intensity full on air combat maybe the dueling arena is where they should spend their time. :joystick:
I felt it was time to chime in on this discussion due to the fact I believe the current rules were set up by people who like the spirit of the FSO. We have had this discussion before and as I remember it was to prevent "controled furballs". As in anything else involving people as a group you can't make everyone happy. The CM's running the scenarios put a lot of thought and hard work into coming up with historical battles that we try to duplicate within the parameters of the simulator.
Viper is my mission planner and knows the rules inside and out. He is very diligent about planning our stratagies and everyone holds this in high regard. Most of the postings have backed up the fact that the rules were not broken in any way. Like Viper said, "The 325th VFG Attack against A143 utilized the valid tactics of Timing / Force multipliers / Coordination / Deception and Route selection". Our squad goes the additional mile to make a valid plan and carry it out. That is the spirit of the FSO in my opinion, and many others who posted replies to this discussion.
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..... We have set objectives, set players, set planes, and we have set constructs to help guide the fight.....
and these are the rules set up by the CM Team.
I'm tired of those who get their panties in a wad about intent or spirit of the rules as they see them. The rules as stated are black and white, do this, don't do that. No need for interpretation. If enough people get sand in their privates, then more rules are added.
What Viper did was plainly within the rules. It's something I have thought of and probably would do myself. This is not just about air combat or mindless furballs, it's also about winning. That's why scores are kept, and thoughtful tacticians will do what is necessary to achieve a winning outcome within these rules.
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I want to clear the air regarding Axis CiC for Frame 3, which was me.
I fully expected a second attack at A144 and A143.
I also had to consider points and what we needed to counter attack and which bases still had the most points left.
So...
The second strikes from Axis went to A117 and A141. We simply needed to do more damage. Originally, we did establish a High Altitude CAP over 143 and 144. Once I realized what forces I needed to deploy to 141, I made the decision to move teh CAP over 143 towards 141.
While searching for a secondary strike to 143, I had my CAP move east to 141 and inflict as much damage possible while a second strike hit 117. At that same time, once I knew I had a CAP over 67 covering 144 defensively from the east and knowing the CV was dead, I moved my CAP of 16 to 144 slightly east and north while moving my 144 CAP north to cover egress of returning strike package from 141.
143 was intentionally left so we could be successful at 141 and 117 as well as covering egress of my last 110 and returning Ju88s. It was a calculated risk. So while the second strike of 143 was impressive, we were not fooled into thinking the strike wasn't coming, only fooled into not locating that strike while otw to 141.
I know the 325th really well and I know them to be really good at FSO and planning. I do not believe any breaking of the rules occurred.
There was never an agreement to any RTB between both sides. At T plus 110, the Axis CiC. I was advised of the time left and that I should consider a RTB. I did in fact put the orders out to Axis to RTB at the mentioned time to recover all aircraft. But, my motive for the recovery was that I saw the second strike at 143 from the tower. I saw the altitude. My intention was to be recovered so I woiuldn't have to consider an agreement for an extension in time to recover aircraft. I was betting on them not getting back in time.
Well played Viper61. 3 Minutes... :salute
:devil
The things I did as CiC for axis was calculated and well thought out. I had reason for doing things the way I did.
This was my first crack at being CiC. I hope that the Axis guys had a blast. I did and they all flew well and did the things I asked of them. :salute
Cerberus
Operations Officer
VF15 Satan's Playmates
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Thanks for filling in the blanks SlipKnt and well played. Always good to see a CiC respond dynamically on his feet, evaluate things, takes risks, and fight things out to the end.
:salute
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:salute
Thank you sir!
Like I said... ...I know the 325th well and have flown with them in FSO many times before. They are the reason VF15 Satan's Playmates became interested in FSO. I know Viper61 works hard to do the right thing and plays the game with honor and integrity. There is absolutely no reason to fault him or even accuse him of loophole rule play. That is not him.
Considering the attack, as I understand the rules. The base being attacked was by a formidable force prior to T plus 60. I expected more was coming considering only 3 hangers went down.
Hitting the base at T plus 90 is fair play since the first strike happened before T plus 60. Instead of staying over 143, the best thing for Axis to do was "Counter attack". I prefer to be aggressive and try to knock my enemy back on their heels whenever able. Like Viper61, I was in the military too (US Marine Corps). I was a grunt Sgt. and a Chief Instructor for SOTG. I am a solid tactician and was fully aware of the events unfolding in front of me. Try doing THAT while keeping a tight formation! :P
Regardless... ...I agree with what Viper did and respect his plan of attack. I think is was a good one. Too bad I sent my 190s away!!! :cry
But... ...my risk did pay off in that I was able to strike hard and get my planes back efficiently.
:salute Viper61 and the rest of the 325th.
I recommend locking this thread if possible. I think we beat this horse to death!! :cheers:
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I also have always thought the T+60 rules included that all strike packages had to be on target within 60 min. No intent or in spirit, but that the rule stated such. Even my literal mind did not catch that they do not state such a thing. Well played.
So, can a CiC use a squad as a reserve to send anywhere needed without designating a target before hand?
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So, can a CiC use a squad as a reserve to send anywhere needed without designating a target before hand?
I believe not. As I understand it, each squad needs to be assigned a specific task/target by the CiC prior to the frame.
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I also have always thought the T+60 rules included that all strike packages had to be on target within 60 min.
If you are implying that is what I thought, you are wrong. I knew that was not the case. However, the average FSO frame barely lasts 2 hours (if not the majority being ended sooner).
This is on par with those MWA squads that hit a field then switch to hitting a field on the other side of the map when anybody ups to defend. It's on par with hiding the CV 250 mi across the map so that nobody can sink it if you lose a port in LWA. Much as you can plan for it, and much as you can defend against it (I and my FSO squaddies have orbitted fields for a long time for CAP before being ordered to land in the past, I am no stranger to following orders), it's still a lame tactic. It's a step away from what I described in my previous post (hiding entire strike packages and escorts for 1.5 hours then having them take off, not taking off for 1.5 hours before you even head to target, etc).
It's timid.
P.S. For perspective, first hit on A143 was around 30 minutes. This "followup" didn't occur for another hour. An hour. How much more effective would it have been to actually send these guys in with their pals? To send the spits from the SAME squadron along WITH the bombers so that they actually had escorts? Considering that 50% of the damage they did to the field was only after half the server had logged off, I'd say it's a hollow victory. (I use "victory" loosely in this case, I don't know the frame results)
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Krusty, sir <S>. I believe you devalue yourself sir with this arguement and your complaint about "5 mph crosswinds" on the last frame.
As you can see no one agrees with you about the activities you complain about being wrong.
In my opinion the only thing I see that is against the "spirit of the game" is allowing the FSO boards to host what has devolved into a main arena war of words.
Krusty , sir <S>, you are better than that.
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I'll wager that, had the OP been on station and still defending, he would have hooted with joy at seeing more enemy. And.. this topic would not be in existence.
It would seem that the lesson learned is not to make assumptions based on the "In flight" data available.
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SlipKnt and AKP - Great Posts on the your take of what unfolded and your actions. Always a pleasure flying with you and some times even better fighting against you and the Playmates. Or in this case my plan vs. your plan :D
Appreciate the posts and your prospective. And for that sir you get the Dancing Banana X 3 :banana: :banana: :banana:
WxMan and Jenks - Good add's as well. In fact Jenks I think you probably hit the nail on the head.
With these last posts it seems pointless to continue the typing by anyone, probably better that it stops as no good will come from any further dialog. Great posts and lively debate by all. I recommend that it stop. :salute
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:salute
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We don't need anymore rules additions to a alrdy with to many rules event. Anymore rules that get added and the CM's might as well make the orders and CIC each side so no rules get broken. FSO is a Tactical event, not a furball event. If u don't like that, You don't have to participate, simple as that.
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We don't need anymore rules additions to a alrdy with to many rules event. Anymore rules that get added and the CM's might as well make the orders and CIC each side so no rules get broken. FSO is a Tactical event, not a furball event. If u don't like that, You don't have to participate, simple as that.
+1
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Well played Viper! Nice to see some thoughtful planning and preparation. I note that you gave your group the "hard" job (as always).
WxMan and Dog hit the nail on the head. Lots of WTGs in this thread. Well deserved.