So... what was with the....?

[Krusty]

Sorry for ambiguity, "exposure" comment was to Molson saying he was new to the FSO. That comment was directed at him.

Viper, that wasn't directed at your squad.

However, your quip about all tactics being valid is a farce. In the REAL world perhaps. This isn't the real world. We have 2 hours or so to have a little fun. We have set objectives, set players, set planes, and we have set constructs to help guide the fight.

As I said, while technically legit, this kind of mission is underhanded. In the REAL world it might win you a medal. In here, it's lame duck at best. You've clarified it wasn't a mission outlined by the CiC, just your own concoction...

Probably everybody else would have told you to move it up or not to do that. Except your own squaddies, that is. Naturally squaddies stick together (it's part of being in a squad, we back each other up) but let's hope you're the only guy in FSOs that tries this kind of thing. Otherwise there's no point in showing up.


We might as well have 250 players on the attack side sit on runays for 1.5 hours to save gas, or fly to a land mass, land, turn off engines for 1 hour, and take off again to continue the mission.

We might as well have bombers that intentionally come in at the last minute of frame logs to drop, then suicide bail, hoping the points they earn offsets the loss of the bombers.


No, sir. That dog won't hunt.

[ImADot]

I've flown defensive CAP for 45 minutes with no action other than to land with 5 minutes to spare - because I was tasked to defend a base; which includes being there in case of a late-frame attack.  And as I said earlier, we were 1,000' lining up with the carrier to tower out with 5 minutes to go when the CV was attacked by a squad of zekes which had absolutely no chance to rtb.  There's a big difference here - the distances involved with those zekes precluded them from getting home in time.  That was not the case here in Frame 3 where the bases were close enough to get home within 20 minutes and before end of frame.

With the posts by the CM Team, this thread should have ended.  But with each whine post afterwards, all I hear is this: 
"I saw action right away, got kills and had fun...I should be able to call it a night early."
"They should have to send all the attackers all at once so I can rack up more kills and spend the last 30 minutes in the tower drinking beer instead."
"They should change the rules because I don't want to have to fly the whole two hours."

It is a game. We play for fun.  We play because we want to have a small taste of what it might have been like - albeit without the real life-or-death consequences.  With a recreation of historical scenarios, one cannot expect white-knuckle action the whole two hours.  I think the Rules and the players present a good balance between action and creativity.

[CUTT]

" With a recreation of historical scenarios, one cannot expect white-knuckle action the whole two hours.  I think the Rules and the players present a good balance between action and creativity".



Well said ImADot. If somebody wants high intensity full on air combat maybe the dueling arena is where they should spend their time.  
 I felt it was time to chime in on this discussion due to the fact I believe the current rules were set up by people who like the spirit of the FSO. We have had this discussion before and as I remember it was to prevent "controled furballs". As in anything else involving people as a group you can't make everyone happy. The CM's running the scenarios put a lot of thought and hard work into coming up with historical battles that we try to duplicate within the parameters of the simulator.
Viper is my mission planner and knows the rules inside and out. He is very diligent about planning our stratagies and everyone holds this in high regard. Most of the postings have backed up the fact that the rules were not broken in any way. Like Viper said, "The 325th VFG Attack against A143 utilized the valid tactics of Timing / Force multipliers / Coordination / Deception and Route selection". Our squad goes the additional mile to make a valid plan and carry it out. That is the spirit of the FSO in my opinion, and many others who posted replies to this discussion.

[WxMan]

..... We have set objectives, set players, set planes, and we have set constructs to help guide the fight.....

  and these are the rules set up by the CM Team. 

I'm tired of those who get their panties in a wad about intent or spirit of the rules as they see them. The rules as stated are black and white, do this, don't do that.  No need for interpretation.  If enough people get sand in their privates, then more rules are added.

What Viper did was plainly within the rules.  It's something I have thought of and probably would do myself.  This is not just about air combat or mindless furballs, it's also about winning. That's why scores are kept, and thoughtful tacticians will do what is necessary to achieve a winning outcome within these rules.

[SlipKnt]

I want to clear the air regarding Axis CiC for Frame 3, which was me.

I fully expected a second attack at A144 and A143.

I also had to consider points and what we needed to counter attack and which bases still had the most points left.

So...

The second strikes from Axis went to A117 and A141.  We simply needed to do more damage.  Originally, we did establish a High Altitude CAP over 143 and 144.  Once I realized what forces I needed to deploy to 141, I made the decision to move teh CAP over 143 towards 141.

While searching for a secondary strike to 143, I had my CAP move east to 141 and inflict as much damage possible while a second strike hit 117.  At that same time, once I knew I had a CAP over 67 covering 144 defensively from the east and knowing the CV was dead, I moved my CAP of 16 to 144 slightly east and north while moving my 144 CAP north to cover egress of returning strike package from 141.

143 was intentionally left so we could be successful at 141 and 117 as well as covering egress of my last 110 and returning Ju88s.  It was a calculated risk.  So while the second strike of 143 was impressive, we were not fooled into thinking the strike wasn't coming, only fooled into not locating that strike while otw to 141.

I know the 325th really well and I know them to be really good at FSO and planning.  I do not believe any breaking of the rules occurred. 

There was never an agreement to any RTB between both sides.  At T plus 110, the Axis CiC.  I was advised of the time left and that I should consider a RTB.  I did in fact put the orders out to Axis to RTB at the mentioned time to recover all aircraft.  But, my motive for the recovery was that I saw the second strike at 143 from the tower.  I saw the altitude.  My intention was to be recovered so I woiuldn't have to consider an agreement for an extension in time to recover aircraft.  I was betting on them not getting back in time.

Well played Viper61.  3 Minutes...   

 

The things I did as CiC for axis was calculated and well thought out.  I had reason for doing things the way I did. 

This was my first crack at being CiC.  I hope that the Axis guys had a blast.  I did and they all flew well and did the things I asked of them.   

Cerberus
Operations Officer
VF15 Satan's Playmates
 

[ghostdancer]

Thanks for filling in the blanks SlipKnt and well played. Always good to see a CiC respond dynamically on his feet, evaluate things, takes risks, and fight things out to the end.

[SlipKnt]

 

Thank you sir!

Like I said...   ...I know the 325th well and have flown with them in FSO many times before.  They are the reason VF15 Satan's Playmates became interested in FSO.  I know Viper61 works hard to do the right thing and plays the game with honor and integrity.  There is absolutely no reason to fault him or even accuse him of loophole rule play.  That is not him.  

Considering the attack, as I understand the rules.  The base being attacked was by a formidable force prior to T plus 60.  I expected more was coming considering only 3 hangers went down.  

Hitting the base at T plus 90 is fair play since the first strike happened before T plus 60.  Instead of staying over 143, the best thing for Axis to do was "Counter attack".  I prefer to be aggressive and try to knock my enemy back on their heels whenever able.  Like Viper61, I was in the military too (US Marine Corps).  I was a grunt Sgt. and a Chief Instructor for SOTG.  I am a solid tactician and was fully aware of the events unfolding in front of me.  Try doing THAT while keeping a tight formation!  

Regardless...   ...I agree with what Viper did and respect his plan of attack.  I think is was a good one.  Too bad I sent my 190s away!!!    

But...   ...my risk did pay off in that I was able to strike hard and get my planes back efficiently.

  Viper61 and the rest of the 325th.  

I recommend locking this thread if possible.  I think we beat this horse to death!!  

[RSLQK186]

I also have always thought the T+60 rules included that all strike packages had to be on target within 60 min. No intent or in spirit, but that the rule stated such. Even my literal mind did not catch that they do not state such a thing. Well played.
So, can a CiC use a squad as a reserve to send anywhere needed without designating a target before hand?

[ImADot]

So, can a CiC use a squad as a reserve to send anywhere needed without designating a target before hand?

I believe not.  As I understand it, each squad needs to be assigned a specific task/target by the CiC prior to the frame.

[Krusty]

I also have always thought the T+60 rules included that all strike packages had to be on target within 60 min.

If you are implying that is what I thought, you are wrong. I knew that was not the case. However, the average FSO frame barely lasts 2 hours (if not the majority being ended sooner).

This is on par with those MWA squads that hit a field then switch to hitting a field on the other side of the map when anybody ups to defend. It's on par with hiding the CV 250 mi across the map so that nobody can sink it if you lose a port in LWA. Much as you can plan for it, and much as you can defend against it (I and my FSO squaddies have orbitted fields for a long time for CAP before being ordered to land in the past, I am no stranger to following orders), it's still a lame tactic. It's a step away from what I described in my previous post (hiding entire strike packages and escorts for 1.5 hours then having them take off, not taking off for 1.5 hours before you even head to target, etc).


It's timid.

P.S. For perspective, first hit on A143 was around 30 minutes. This "followup" didn't occur for another hour. An hour. How much more effective would it have been to actually send these guys in with their pals? To send the spits from the SAME squadron along WITH the bombers so that they actually had escorts? Considering that 50% of the damage they did to the field was only after half the server had logged off, I'd say it's a hollow victory. (I use "victory" loosely in this case, I don't know the frame results)

[Zoney]

Krusty, sir <S>.  I believe you devalue yourself sir with this arguement and your complaint about "5 mph crosswinds" on the last frame.
As you can see no one agrees with you about the activities you complain about being wrong.

In my opinion the only thing I see that is against the "spirit of the game" is allowing the FSO boards to host what has devolved into a main arena war of words.

Krusty , sir <S>, you are better than that.

[Jenks]

I'll wager that, had the OP been on station and still defending, he would have hooted with joy at seeing more enemy. And.. this topic would not be in existence.

It would seem that the lesson learned is not to make assumptions based on the "In flight" data available.

[Viper61]

SlipKnt and AKP - Great Posts on the your take of what unfolded and your actions.  Always a pleasure flying with you and some times even better fighting against you and the Playmates.  Or in this case my plan vs. your plan 

Appreciate the posts and your prospective.  And for that sir you get the Dancing Banana X 3     

WxMan and Jenks - Good add's as well.  In fact Jenks I think you probably hit the nail on the head.

With these last posts it seems pointless to continue the typing by anyone, probably better that it stops as no good will come from any further dialog.  Great posts and lively debate by all.  I recommend that it stop.    

[Bannor]

 

[AKDogg]

We don't need anymore rules additions to a alrdy with to many rules event.  Anymore rules that get added and the CM's might as well make the orders and CIC each side so no rules get broken.  FSO is a Tactical event, not a furball event.  If u don't like that, You don't have to participate, simple as that.