Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Muzzy on January 02, 2011, 11:14:36 AM
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How? Discuss.
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I'm no pro at it, you should contact Sukov if you want an in-depth explanation.
The two most lethal moves I've found in the Ta-152 are the Wingover and High Yo-Yo.
For the wingover, dive a bit, gain E, then WEP it. Go nose up (near 90 degrees) and wait for the plane to come to neutral G's. Kick rudder and use ailerons to nose down onto the target. This is very tricky in this plane, especially when one little detail often leaves you floundering for speed. It takes some getting used to.
The yo-yo: I just wait in lag pursuit until the person either turns or dives. I go up, look to see where they are, and dive onto them. If they turn, you can either lead if you have enough time, but if not, just climb and wait for an opprotunity to arise again.
Snap-roll is a good defensive maneuver in this plane, I like 190s for their ability to pull this off with ease. Be careful that you have plenty of area to correct yourself, this craft is not as forgiving as others.
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Muzzy,
Seat time is the best thing you can do,oh and fly it heavy and learn to deal with the inverted flat spin.
With full fuel and DT it will do a tail slide thats alot of fun to try and get out of,just be careful when it inverts,it takes every trick in the book to recover from that stall.
As for flying it,well it's an FW and none of the FW's like to pull G's under corner speed,so I'd fly it and watch the airsped indicator and accelerometer{G meter} to get an idea of the G loads it will take before you stall a wing.
:salute
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I'm no pro at it, you should contact Sukov if you want an in-depth explanation.
The two most lethal moves I've found in the Ta-152 are the Wingover and High Yo-Yo.
For the wingover, dive a bit, gain E, then WEP it. Go nose up (near 90 degrees) and wait for the plane to come to neutral G's. Kick rudder and use ailerons to nose down onto the target. This is very tricky in this plane, especially when one little detail often leaves you floundering for speed. It takes some getting used to.
The yo-yo: I just wait in lag pursuit until the person either turns or dives. I go up, look to see where they are, and dive onto them. If they turn, you can either lead if you have enough time, but if not, just climb and wait for an opprotunity to arise again.
Snap-roll is a good defensive maneuver in this plane, I like 190s for their ability to pull this off with ease. Be careful that you have plenty of area to correct yourself, this craft is not as forgiving as others.
I assume the wingover is something like a rope? Or can it be used offensively as well?
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The wingover it basically a hammerhead. Instead of going straight to the side using only rudder, I use ailerons as well. If at all possible (enough E) I just try to pull up and avoid getting anything near a stall.
It goes from defensive to offensive, like a hammerhead.
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Ya hit the go baby go button. :D
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i am efinatly no pro at it either and actually don't enjoy the plane much, but i can warn you that it hates to stall. . and seems to fly off the rails real easy. From what i can tell, and again this is just my observation, you hav to be very keen on the ridder or the tail will kick out and flip you over and under. . .
oh and the flat stall. . . very nasty.
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Yep. If you are too rough with her at slow speeds , she'll drop into a flat spin instantly. (Well, she always seems to do that with me anyways :lol)
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Muzzy,
Seat time is the best thing you can do,oh and fly it heavy and learn to deal with the inverted flat spin.
With full fuel and DT it will do a tail slide thats alot of fun to try and get out of,just be careful when it inverts,it takes every trick in the book to recover from that stall.
As for flying it,well it's an FW and none of the FW's like to pull G's under corner speed,so I'd fly it and watch the airsped indicator and accelerometer{G meter} to get an idea of the G loads it will take before you stall a wing.
:salute
Seat time is more important in this bird then probably any other just because of the stalls. I like to fly it in the vertical and use wingovers to come back down on peoples heads.
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One of the toughest birds to make it turn. Avoid turnfights except your opponent is a p51, p47, Typhoon, mossie, or an other 190. It turns the best from all the 190s (with equal fuel amount, of course), and has decent flaps. The sustained turn rate isnt as poor, but the turn speed is, so you can be reversed easily. The rudder is quite effective, almost like an f4u, but if you dont use it carefully enough, that lovely flatspin will come. When it really excels, is the BnZ attack. Feels like it never wanna run outta energy, and also has a decent climb rate with wep on. Has a nasty yawing response to elevator/rudder input, so the goal is to create a crossing snapshot. Has 90 rounds of the über tater, and great secondary cannons, only one pass is enough. Possibly the best BnZ fighter in game.
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One of the toughest birds to make it turn. Avoid turnfights except your opponent is a p51, p47, Typhoon, mossie, or an other 190.
You need to go with what the aircraft can do and do well. Turning in a tight circle is not one of these things. In the craft, you should try to maintain your E as much as possible. Turning will give away all of your E in a couple of circles.
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Sure, but scissoring is more fun than BnZing ;)
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Sure, but scissoring is more fun than BnZing ;)
Well said.
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Moot was an animal in that thing. High,low fast or slow he could throw that thing around like you wouldn't believe
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Moot was an animal in that thing. High,low fast or slow he could throw that thing around like you wouldn't believe
I remember him, mostly his forum avatar from a few years back. A smoking duck, IIRC?
Anyhow.. Where did that fellow go?
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One of the toughest birds to make it turn. Avoid turnfights except your opponent is a p51, p47, Typhoon, mossie, or an other 190.
If you try to turn fight a Mossie in a Ta152, the Mossie will annihilate you if he has any concept of E management.
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If you try to turn fight a Mossie in a Ta152, the Mossie will annihilate you if he has any concept of E management.
Mossie will actually hold its own against alot of birds....but its a huge target and thats what a tator bird likes ;)
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Mossie will actually hold its own against alot of birds....but its a huge target and thats what a tator bird likes ;)
Too bad it is wood and not metal.
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Too bad it is wood and not metal.
Why????
The wooden structure of the Mossie is 1 of it's best attributes,you obviously have not seen pictures of the Mossie that survived a 262 encounter. It took 3 or 4 30mm hits and still flew it's crew home.There's a few Canadian canoe builders that could explain why the wooden mossie was so good.
:salute
edited for spelling and the canoe makers if an affectionate term used to describe the workers at DH.
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Moot was an animal in that thing. High,low fast or slow he could throw that thing around like you wouldn't believe
Agreed
Loved fighting Moot in his 152, the man flew it like he was wearing the thing.
Met up with him off a field once it was us and 4 or 5 red guys. I Fought one and splashed him, turned to go help moot and that was all i saw was him.... Asked him where the other Cons went and all i saw in the local chat buffer was-----------> : )
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If you try to turn fight a Mossie in a Ta152, the Mossie will annihilate you if he has any concept of E management.
Well, the mossie needs his flaps out to turn effectively, and is a brick without them. The Ta has a decent turn rate without flaps too and doesnt lose much with them. And almost the same turn radius with flaps. Im talking about the light 152 now, with fuel for about 12-15 minutes.
Btw i would love to meet one of those 152 experts who can control, handle that tailslide and make advantage from it. Im just turning it like a 109 G, and its still a pretty impressive bird.
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Well, the mossie needs his flaps out to turn effectively, and is a brick without them. The Ta has a decent turn rate without flaps too and doesnt lose much with them. And almost the same turn radius with flaps. Im talking about the light 152 now, with fuel for about 12-15 minutes.
Btw i would love to meet one of those 152 experts who can control, handle that tailslide and make advantage from it. Im just turning it like a 109 G, and its still a pretty impressive bird.
Best time to get into it is while spiral climbing
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Well, the mossie needs his flaps out to turn effectively, and is a brick without them. The Ta has a decent turn rate without flaps too and doesnt lose much with them. And almost the same turn radius with flaps. Im talking about the light 152 now, with fuel for about 12-15 minutes.
Btw i would love to meet one of those 152 experts who can control, handle that tailslide and make advantage from it. Im just turning it like a 109 G, and its still a pretty impressive bird.
The Mossie will turn well at all speeds below 425 mph. The Ta152 stands no chance with slow speed maneuvering against the Mosquito. You can take a mossie, creep along at 100 mph indicated airspeed, flaps raised and not have much trouble turning. And using flaps just make stall speed handling that much better- especially since the flaps can let you hang on your props at 85 mph indicated. Try doing that with the Ta152. The mossie doesn't need any flaps in combat unless you intend to fight at stall speeds. Simply put, the Ta152 should not engage in a stall speed fight unless you don't mind dieing a lot, or just doing it for fun.
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I am by no means a Mosquito expert pilot, but I know how well it can handle in a fight. Too many people just don't fly it often enough, and too few are encountered and flown well in a fight. People naturally assume that it's useless in the air-to-air role because it's big and made of wood.
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I am by no means a Mosquito expert pilot, but I know how well it can handle in a fight. Too many people just don't fly it often enough, and too few are encountered and flown well in a fight. People naturally assume that it's useless in the air-to-air role because it's big and made of wood.
Or because its roll rate is horrible......but thats why you don't roll in it :D
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The Mossie will turn well at all speeds below 425 mph. The Ta152 stands no chance with slow speed maneuvering against the Mosquito. You can take a mossie, creep along at 100 mph indicated airspeed, flaps raised and not have much trouble turning. And using flaps just make stall speed handling that much better- especially since the flaps can let you hang on your props at 85 mph indicated. Try doing that with the Ta152. The mossie doesn't need any flaps in combat unless you intend to fight at stall speeds. Simply put, the Ta152 should not engage in a stall speed fight unless you don't mind dieing a lot, or just doing it for fun.
You can stay in the air at 50mph in a 152
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You can stay in the air at 50mph in a 152
shhhh you!!!!!! :noid
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what is the TA152?? :huh :headscratch: i dunno what and how to fly it.
greens
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Why????
The wooden structure of the Mossie is 1 of it's best attributes,you obviously have not seen pictures of the Mossie that survived a 262 encounter. It took 3 or 4 30mm hits and still flew it's crew home.There's a few Canadian canoe builders that could explain why the wooden mossie was so good.
:salute
edited for spelling and the canoe makers if an affectionate term used to describe the workers at DH.
I have seen the mossie after a 262 encounter. I meant too bad for him, as flying against it with the Ta-152 would yield lesser results than if the Mossie were a metal bird.
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You can stay in the air at 50mph in a 152
Ran some tests in the Offline mode. With these tests, I attempted to determine how stable the aircraft is in a nose-high attitude at the slowest speed possible (hanging on the props). In both of these tests, I made sure to climb to 1,000 feet after takeoff, maintain course heading and altitude. Before takeoff, I loaded both the Ta152 and Mosquito Mk6 with 25% fuel, and light guns package. Spawning on the runway, I dropped to full flaps. Here are the numbers I took note of:
1. Mosquito Mk6 - the airplane can maintain an indicated airspeed of 75 mph while the controls are quite stable. Yawing is apparent when applying some small rudder. The aircraft can maintain a consistent heading throughout flight, as long as the pilot applies the right amount of controls. Nose attitude was roughly 15-20 degrees above the horizon.
2. Ta152 - the airplane can maintain an indicated airspeed of 87 mph with stable controls and course heading. I had attempted to apply a higher nose-up attitude to decrease airspeed, but unfortunately, due to CoG issues and wing loading and engine torque, the aircraft wants to yaw to the left and flip over. To give the Ta152 a better chance, I re-spawned a second time, emptied all the guns out, this time the plane can hold an airspeed of 83 mph with stable controls. Any lower speed will result in dangerous swaying motion, and a risk in crashing. Nose attitude was roughly 15-20 degrees above the horizon.
To add in some extra fun, after conducting both tests, I attempted a pure vertical split-s maneuver at 1,000 feet altitude at the slowest possible control speed of both planes. At 75 mph, the Mosquito Mk6 was able to complete the maneuver with roughly 30-50 feet to spare. The Ta152, on the other hand, failed to complete the maneuver. The aircraft needed an additional 250 feet of altitude in order to pull off the maneuver without crashing.
Regardless of whether I did a great job testing, the implications are still the same. The Mosquito Mk6 is simply more stable, accelerates faster, climbs faster, and turns sharper at slower speeds. Therefore, if you're in a Ta152, avoid pure turn 'n burn fighting against the Mosquito Mk6. Your best chances of winning is maintaining an energy advantage over the Mosquito, keeping your speed up, and using BnZ tactics to your advantage.
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Ran some tests in the Offline mode. With these tests, I attempted to determine how stable the aircraft is in a nose-high attitude at the slowest speed possible (hanging on the props). In both of these tests, I made sure to climb to 1,000 feet after takeoff, maintain course heading and altitude. Before takeoff, I loaded both the Ta152 and Mosquito Mk6 with 25% fuel, and light guns package. Spawning on the runway, I dropped to full flaps. Here are the numbers I took note of:
1. Mosquito Mk6 - the airplane can maintain an indicated airspeed of 75 mph while the controls are quite stable. Yawing is apparent when applying some small rudder. The aircraft can maintain a consistent heading throughout flight, as long as the pilot applies the right amount of controls. Nose attitude was roughly 15-20 degrees above the horizon.
2. Ta152 - the airplane can maintain an indicated airspeed of 87 mph with stable controls and course heading. I had attempted to apply a higher nose-up attitude to decrease airspeed, but unfortunately, due to CoG issues and wing loading and engine torque, the aircraft wants to yaw to the left and flip over. To give the Ta152 a better chance, I re-spawned a second time, emptied all the guns out, this time the plane can hold an airspeed of 83 mph with stable controls. Any lower speed will result in dangerous swaying motion, and a risk in crashing. Nose attitude was roughly 15-20 degrees above the horizon.
To add in some extra fun, after conducting both tests, I attempted a pure vertical split-s maneuver at 1,000 feet altitude at the slowest possible control speed of both planes. At 75 mph, the Mosquito Mk6 was able to complete the maneuver with roughly 30-50 feet to spare. The Ta152, on the other hand, failed to complete the maneuver. The aircraft needed an additional 250 feet of altitude in order to pull off the maneuver without crashing.
Regardless of whether I did a great job testing, the implications are still the same. The Mosquito Mk6 is simply more stable, accelerates faster, climbs faster, and turns sharper at slower speeds. Therefore, if you're in a Ta152, avoid pure turn 'n burn fighting against the Mosquito Mk6. Your best chances of winning is maintaining an energy advantage over the Mosquito, keeping your speed up, and using BnZ tactics to your advantage.
I am fairly confident in saying that the 152 has nothing to fear in the mossie. As for the split-S there is a trick to pulling it off smoothly.
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Thanks for posting this test result, Plazus.
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Anyhow.. Where did that fellow go?
School so I never have to wake up for a job I hate.
The 152 trials by Plazus look accurate but they are one more instance of paper figures not telling the full picture. Even though the Mossie (VI, I don't know anything about the new one) clearly has better numbers than the 152, it's still within reach of the 152 provided you don't make mistakes and use the vertical as much as you can. Indeed there's basically no chance to keep in touch once 152vsMossie have scrubbed their speed down below 200 IAS or so, if you stick to the horizontal.
Also numbers don't tell you anything about the very large variety of factors and variance of each of those factors in actual Aces High Arena conditions: Just as the Mossie can surprise most players when you suddenly fly it to the max and turn inside or outbrake/snapshot their spitfire or N1K, so the 152 can surprise many Mossies; although in this case it's way harder to accomplish because the 152 has a much smaller useful envelope for tight dogfighting and on top of that is much less forgiving in that restrained envelope.
Morfiend put it in a nutshell above: Practice, practice, till you can almost do things blindfolded... Till you can "wear" the plane: till you know everything that'll happen before it happens, till the plane is an extension of yourself.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ta_152H
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[...]
Morfiend put it in a nutshell above: Practice, practice, till you can almost do things blindfolded... Till you can "wear" the plane: till you know everything that'll happen before it happens, till the plane is an extension of yourself.
[...]
Ahhhhh amen to that!
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Hi Moot. Good to see you're still lurking about. I was just about to post "Where's moot when you need him?" and low and behold, there you were.
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Hey BaldEagl.
Coupla details missing in the above: You should always be as smooth as possible. Every unnecessary jerk, even small, momentarily puts the plane at high angle of attack which acts like an airbrake. Unless you need to scrub off speed, it's best to be as economical with your speed (aka "keep your E") so that you can "spend" your speed on that many more maneuvers or even just small corrections later on. Every little bit adds up to make a difference.
You also should be on the rudders almost permanently. The 152 has one of the loosest tails, and sometimes in regular flight (meaning when you wouldn't expect it) acts just like the fuselage blanks the rudder which makes it that much easier for the tail to derail and that much harder to recover it.
e.g. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,302470.msg3881728.html#msg3881728
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I used to hate running across moot in that damn thing down low no matter what I flying, best thin air 152 jock I ever ran across was Turner though.
shamus
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Hey Shamus :) One of these days..
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If you have fuel in the aft tank, burn it first. Also lock the tailwheel if you expect to land for a reaming. It has a wicked ground loop.
Above 20k, it becomes a completely different aircraft. One you can engage and disengage with, AT WILL.Watch the Man. Pressure gauge to see what I mean.
Flown properly and well managed, nothing can touch a 152 at or above that alt.
The only thing close is a P-47N
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IIRC the spit14 is competitive as well. 25-30k is more the boundary I remember for 152 coming into its own, relative the rest of the plane set.
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If you have fuel in the aft tank, burn it first. Also lock the tailwheel if you expect to land for a reaming. It has a wicked ground loop.
Above 20k, it becomes a completely different aircraft. One you can engage and disengage with, AT WILL.Watch the Man. Pressure gauge to see what I mean.
Flown properly and well managed, nothing can touch a 152 at or above that alt.
The only thing close is a P-47N
:aok