Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Kazan_HB on January 13, 2011, 05:50:16 AM
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How to shoot down the bomber?(Guide)
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9895/buffs01.jpg)
(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5475/buffs02.jpg)
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3307/buffs03.jpg)
(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2359/buffs04.jpg)
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5104/buffs05.jpg)
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8360/buffs07.jpg)
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5521/buffs08.jpg)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8692/buffs09.jpg)
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9671/buffs10.jpg)
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6360/buffs11.jpg)
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2476/buffs12.jpg)
Use right button mouse -> show image
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If you attack from the 3-9 line you don't need as much speed/altitude.
Either above or below attacking from the wingtip you have a much bigger target to shoot at.
Also bombers can not fly missing a wingtip, they roll over and fall. So often instead of hammering away at them and accomplishing little you can kill them with just a few well placed rounds into the wingtip.
The idea being to not be a stationary closing target that they can hammer with their guns from 3-600 yards.
Flying up to them from behind does exactly that, your an easy target. That is why they call it "dead 6" after all.
Executing a good high bounce, or High or low 3-9 line slashing attack puts you in their sights for the least amount of time. Your position relative to them is always changing. So your a harder target to hit.
One other note, a properly setup front beam attack will leave you perfectly positioned to shoot at both the lead bomber, and the trailing bomber on the far side. Giving you the potential at least to take out 2 birds with a single pass.
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Ghost, do you have a writeup on slashing attacks that you could link me to? I've never really tried
to properly execute a slashing attack. I'm pretty sure I know how and do on occasion, but I've never
really.. divulged, I guess one could say.
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If you attack from the 3-9 line you don't need as much speed/altitude.
If you are in a cannon armed plane, the 3-9 attack is probably preferred. In a U.S. fighter armed only with Mother Deuce, I prefer the high-six attack as Kazan so wonderfully described, so you can target the wing root/fuel tanks. In Spits, 190s, etc. I have more success with 3-9. With the Jug, Hog, Pony, I always use a high-six. My aim point in the dive is the nose of the lead aircraft until I open fire, as this drops me in right behind the tail of the formation, giving the tail gun position a very fast tracking profile. Likewise for the 3-9 attack, track the nose of the lead aircraft, and once you open fire, don't pull any more lead, so you can slip behind them quickly without risking a collision.
Perhaps Snailman will post his preference, as I know he's a bomber-killer of fame...
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If you are in a cannon armed plane, the 3-9 attack is probably preferred. In a U.S. fighter armed only with Mother Deuce, I prefer the high-six attack as Kazan so wonderfully described, so you can target the wing root/fuel tanks. In Spits, 190s, etc. I have more success with 3-9. With the Jug, Hog, Pony, I always use a high-six. My aim point in the dive is the nose of the lead aircraft until I open fire, as this drops me in right behind the tail of the formation, giving the tail gun position a very fast tracking profile. Likewise for the 3-9 attack, track the nose of the lead aircraft, and once you open fire, don't pull any more lead, so you can slip behind them quickly without risking a collision.
Perhaps Snailman will post his preference, as I know he's a bomber-killer of fame...
I use the same approach as you do. High & fast 6 in US rides, slashing 3-9 attacks in others.
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belly attacks work well against lancs. Also, I like ho'ing bombers, and vertical slashing from non-90 degree angles make it very hard for gunners to track you.
lastly, try and figure out where 9991110 is and avoid him.
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Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo. :eek:
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Good write up Kazan thanks :salute
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Very helpful. I just need to practice my shooting as I come down. I've had some success damaging bombers coming in on the 3-9 line, or just any angle that doesn't mean sitting behind them forever.
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Contrasting and supplementing the great OP by Kazan:
How NOT to attack bombers. Pictures from a B-17 sortie earlier today:
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/hownot1.jpg)
Plain six attack with marginal speed advantage. It would even had been far less if I had not deliberately slowed down to get the Pony quicker into close range (a favourite trick of mine ;))
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6628/hownot2.jpg)
Even with a high speed plane, attacking from six o'clock is a serious and unnecessary risk. Instead of using his speed to get in front & above me, he decided to press the attack and fly directly into my stream of bullets. Speed is not that advantageous in this case. Result:
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/889/hownot3.jpg)
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Sorry Lusche I couldn't resist doctoring that last pic a little
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/dichotomy/hownot4.jpg)
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I find too often even with a well-executed high 6 attack, a decent gunner will ping you up pretty badly. I therefore use (in all rides, cannon or otherwise) a high 4 or high 8 attack, which (as someone mentioned) also allows for striking two buffs in one pass. I aim cockpit on the first, inner (relative to formation) wingroot on the second. Usually does the trick nicely, with maybe just a few stray rounds finding their way to my ride. It also sets you up as you pass behind your second target to swoop out below and ahead of your target, without sitting directly in front and below their chin turret.
If I find myself with a view similar to that of your 8th frame, I consider it a poorly setup attack. To each his own though, I suppose.
Good hunting. :aok
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I find too often even with a well-executed high 6 attack, a decent gunner will ping you up pretty badly.
The key is the steepness of the dive. If your dive starts to shallow out, better to pull off and reset. If the dive is steep enough, the tail/top gunners positions will have a very difficult time effectively leading your descent.
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The key is the steepness of the dive. If your dive starts to shallow out, better to pull off and reset. If the dive is steep enough, the tail/top gunners positions will have a very difficult time effectively leading your descent.
Yea, I fully understand that Stoney. I still notice though that while I rarely hear any pings on the 4/8 attacks, I'll get a handful coming straight down at them. I could be entirely making it up as well. To be honest I think the larger benefit (for me anyway) is having an easier shot on two bombers at once in a pass, I guess. I do my buff hunting in the M Jug, so a burst of 8 .50s to the cockpit often does the trick, allowing a second kill (or at least good damage) in the same pass. As I said, to each his own.
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You can easily kill bombers from any angle and shooting from farther out is no crime as long as your not wasting it. Taking two down in one pass is not THAT hard but takes at least two cannon and practice.
Bf-110's are great bomber killers btw. A horde of 5k Lancs came my way one day and I shot 11 down and one goon before landing. Taking three at a time from the front is easy with them.
As Ghosth said, clipping the wing tips brings them down easy and can really screw them up if they are in scope on run. Whats even funner is killing them from 1k out with 110 rockets...again, takes practice.
N1k1's and TA-152's used to be killer for wrecking bombers. Come down on them and once first guy pops use full rudder to slide around them and take one or two more...especially if Lancs
B-17's always gave me trouble but the rest were easy unless they had a good gunner. 999000 hated me...not really..he was a good guy..I miss going against him. Is he still around?
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I think I've shot 990000 down before, but not recently. Mace350i is usually my buff drone, although I've also been running into Iraqvet a lot. Nowadays I can take all three bombers if they've got a crappy gunner, or 1 or 2 if they've got a good one. If I get hit and they don't take a wing off I can usually land the kill, especially if I'm close to base.
I've been trying the high six approach and had some success, but my biggest problem is tracking the bombers when they're below me. Any suggestions?
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I've been trying the high six approach and had some success, but my biggest problem is tracking the bombers when they're below me. Any suggestions?
My sight line over the nose ideally only shows me the cockpit forward of the lead aircraft. If I can see the whole formation in the dive, I know I'm coming in too shallow. Then, just as I'm passing through 1000 yards, I being to aim for the wing root, and usually open fire inside 600 yards. Now, I use a Jug typically, so I have ammo to spare.
Another thing that helps is to establish the approximate course of the bombers, so that if you do lose sight of them, you'll know approximately where they should be under the nose.
@Tool,
With respect, we're not talking about banging down Lancs in a 110 at 5k over a town.
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I take it then I kind of have to guesstimate where the formation is while in my dive? I can cope with that, but is there a good marker to let me know when to open fire? Like, say, when I see the lead plane start to appear under my nose or something?
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I think I've shot 990000 down before, but not recently. Mace350i is usually my buff drone, although I've also been running into Iraqvet a lot. Nowadays I can take all three bombers if they've got a crappy gunner, or 1 or 2 if they've got a good one. If I get hit and they don't take a wing off I can usually land the kill, especially if I'm close to base.
I've been trying the high six approach and had some success, but my biggest problem is tracking the bombers when they're below me. Any suggestions?
You must be over bomber. Then the attack. Not lowers the flight, before the attack.
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So right above the bomber? Problem...how do I know when I've reached that point? Can't really see to gauge my position. Second, how high over the bomber?
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That was the theory.
And this is the practice ...
Kills in of by died in
B-17G 0 16 0 0
B-24J 0 24 3 0
B-25C 0 2 0 0
B-25H 0 6 0 0
B-26B 0 4 0 0
Lancaster III 0 13 0 0
------------------------------------------
65 3
Kill of death 20+...
:devil
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So right above the bomber? Problem...how do I know when I've reached that point? Can't really see to gauge my position. Second, how high over the bomber?
about 1k +. I prefer 2k more..
edit :
higher is better (look screenshots again)
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Gotcha.
My kills are sadly 54/20, a bit better than 2 to 1 but still getting killed.
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So right above the bomber? Problem...how do I know when I've reached that point? Can't really see to gauge my position. Second, how high over the bomber?
There are a couple of different ways to do it. You can tail chase them, and keep rolling over to look at them, or offset from their course a few km, flying parallel to them, and then close once you're in position. Its a little easier to keep track of them this way, but tougher to swing into attack position. My ideal altitude advantage is 3,000 feet. Any more than that and I have a tendency to pick up too much speed, any lower, and not enough.
You don't have to guess-timate the position of the bombers--just keep the nose of the lead bomber visible over your nose. Then, once you've closed to a firing position maneuver to take the shot.
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Gotcha.
My kills are sadly 54/20, a bit better than 2 to 1 but still getting killed.
What aircraft are you using?
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ways to and to not shoot at bombers are here as well enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8EbLDhHEdU
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my favorite is from about 1.5 to 2k directly above. Roll over and start the attack. I usually just aim to take one per pass. 190s are butchers.
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What aircraft are you using?
This tour I'm using the Spit 8 (about half the bomber kills in that were at 6-10k) and the K4. Last tour my primary ride was the Dora but it didn't have the hitting power or the durability for bomber interception (the radiator kept getting shot out and the engine quits pretty fast when it loses oil).
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Okay I've got some fail film I'd like to share. What's a good place to post it so you guys can critique?
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So right above the bomber? Problem...how do I know when I've reached that point? Can't really see to gauge my position.
This is why you should start it above and a little to the side, instead of directly above. A quick drop of the wing will give you a clear view of your position. During the attack the bombers will be to the lower and side of your nose making them less likely to disappear under the hood for extended periods. On top of all of that, you present a much harder target to the gunner because unlike you, he is not firing in the direction his plane is traveling and the correction for that varies with the aspect and elevations which is confusing for most gunners. Finally, your rebound and zoom is more efficient because you will be diving 20-30 deg less steep. The only price you have to pay is that your deflection shot is a tiny bit more difficult, but definitely worthwhile.
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I actually stumbled upon this tactic last night while fighting a large buff raid in LW:Blue. Dropped 3 Lancs but their escort got my radiator and I had to ditch within sight of the runway. :cry
My problem is still the deflection shot. I think I've been zipping down and taking shots from dead six, instead of at a higher angle. Again, I will post some film of a failed attack for critique.
Oh, and maybe if someone could post some in-cockpit snapshots of the firing point? So I can see what I'm looking at? That would be very helpful.
-Muzzy
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i seem to do best with slashing attacks. it keeps me in their guns less, makes me appear faster, and thus a harder target. it also allows me to climb somewhat parallell to the target, setting up the next attack.
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Oh, and maybe if someone could post some in-cockpit snapshots of the firing point? So I can see what I'm looking at? That would be very helpful.
Steeper is safer, if I find myself getting too shallow I pull out and try again:
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8207/buff2l.jpg)
Always go for the drone, tougher for the buff pilot.
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9240/buff3.jpg)
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careful with that "go for the drone" thing.
a lot of us gun from the drones. makes it easier. :devil
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careful with that "go for the drone" thing.
a lot of us gun from the drones. makes it easier. :devil
Gotta start somewhere though Cap. I'll take my chances with the drone :)
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well, the best advice with going for a drone.....most tend to go for the right drone, as they approach from the rear of the bomber formation. they do this to avoid the "warp" as the left drone is destroyed, and the rightr drone moves over. i(and i think a lot of us) guin from this drone for this reason. if you're gonna go for a drone, then go for the left one first, keep speed high, and keep "slashing", as you're a much harder target this way.
this is what happens on a six high attack....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/Capture109b.jpg)
and if i recall, this one was a direct six attack......
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/Capture.jpg)
generally, fly parallel to the target, about 3k above them, and about 1.5k to 2k horizontal from them(to keep out of their gun range). continue till they're about 45 degrees behind you(about your 4 or 5 oclock). turn into their flight path, adjust as necessary, try to keep your speed above 400mph. take your shot, and keep going. bank slightly in the direction of your original heading, so as you climb back up above them, you're pulling out front again. repeat and rinse.
if you misjudge the turn, and they're passing through before you can get guns on them, use your rudder to "skid" the plane slightly,. if you get guns on him, take a shot, and then see above.
this is the slow way to do it, but it works about 80% of the time, and is much easier than the vertical dive. it also gives you a chance to put rounds in all three of the planes in the formation if you do it right.
these types of slashing attacks work best for me, and on the other end, i've found these to be the absolute hardest to defend against.
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In 262 or 30mm birds I always attack from 3-9 line, co-alt/slightly above and fire on the lead bomber and let the rounds trickle across all 3 bombers. 3 in 1 pass is always fun.
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Came upon a strategy, thought I would throw it by you guys and see what you thought:
Instead of a high 6, which always seems to get me shot, this is what I do:
From 2 or 10 o'clock about 2k out, turn inbound and set yourself up for a shot into the lead plane cockpit. You can only normally get 1 at a time but it is such a high angle and such a quick attack, that gunners barely are able to track you. Also, it is a guaranteed kill if you lay into the cockpit with a rain of .50s.
Thoughts?
Spork
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the cockpit is a very small target.......when i do my slashing attacks i mentioned before, i aim for the front half of the plane, and normally land hits across the wings and tail sections. this may or may not kill em, but it creates a goodly amount of damage, and often times, you end up tagging all three of em.
once damaged, it's only a matter of time
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Cockpit is fine, if you can hit it. And a pilot wound on a bomber is as good as a death. As his odds of getting home and landing before dieing are virtually nil.
10 or 2 Oclock approach is classic, just takes the patience to set up correctly.
However if you have trouble hitting the cockpit, or your line isn't quite right settle for a good wingtip shot.
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Knowing how to attack which bombers and what the weak points are helps a lot too. For instance, the attack from straight up is great on B24s because the wing root lights on fire so easily. This isn't as true for a lanc which seems to die best by knocking off wing tips. B-17s are different too. B26s are a challenge because they are fast and have big guns. Knowing your enemy helps in this process.
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Shooting down the leader instead of the drone has the advantage of throwing the gunner off on your egress. Especially if you just tear its wing, the lead bomber will slowly roll and drop - it is nearly impossible to hit anything if the gunner is still aiming from there. If he quickly bails and moves to another drone, he will be off in the aiming point and will take time to reacquire you. By then, you are safe.
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Shooting down the leader instead of the drone has the advantage of throwing the gunner off on your egress. Especially if you just tear its wing, the lead bomber will slowly roll and drop - it is nearly impossible to hit anything if the gunner is still aiming from there. If he quickly bails and moves to another drone, he will be off in the aiming point and will take time to reacquire you. By then, you are safe.
unless said gunner is gunning from a drone.
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How to shoot down the bomber?(Guide)
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9895/buffs01.jpg)
(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5475/buffs02.jpg)
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3307/buffs03.jpg)
(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2359/buffs04.jpg)
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5104/buffs05.jpg)
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8360/buffs07.jpg)
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5521/buffs08.jpg)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8692/buffs09.jpg)
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9671/buffs10.jpg)
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6360/buffs11.jpg)
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2476/buffs12.jpg)
Use right button mouse -> show image
Thanks, cool post.
Now, what if B-17 is at 37,000 feet?
Most bombers fly too low.
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Thanks, cool post.
Now, what if B-17 is at 37,000 feet?
Most bombers fly too low.
in rl, b-17's only flew at 20,000 to 26,000
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in rl, b-17's only flew at 20,000 to 26,000
I honestly do not know the historical accuracy of the B-17.
I do know, this game is not played as it would be if flown as was, in real life.
And I also know from experience in this game, few fighter pilots know how to even get to me above 30,000 feet. A few guys do; they are very good and their score tallys reflect this.
Off topic: As to real life and the B-29 coming into theatre. Seems to me they flew above the ack.
This is a game.
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Kazan I like your initial setup, but I think the illustrations show too close to a dead 6 shot. With such a good setup a more direct and safer vertical attack could have been pressed.
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I honestly do not know the historical accuracy of the B-17.
I do know, this game is not played as it would be if flown as was, in real life.
And I also know from experience in this game, few fighter pilots know how to even get to me above 30,000 feet. A few guys do; they are very good and their score tallys reflect this.
Off topic: As to real life and the B-29 coming into theatre. Seems to me they flew above the ack.
This is a game.
yea i know......i was just sayin. i've been above 30k exactly one time. in lancs. was watching a corsair stalling trying to get to me. :devil
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gotta say... some bomber pilots actually say they cannot get good shots on the 10-11 and 1-2 of the bombers. The enemy cannon bird comes in, shoots a few rounds at high speed and pulls out at the 4-5 7-8 and turns perpindicular and patiently waits for the same angles again and also using 3-9 slashing attacks once the initial pass is over
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You'll love it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMfBKrdErY
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Kazan
I tried the attack plan you described and got 2 B-29's about 3 hours ago and got away clean. :old:
Thank you for the info. :salute
LtngRydr
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I was in a P-38J Lightning. I forgot to add that part. :old:
LtngRydr
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WTG Sir! :x :x :x
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Contrasting and supplementing the great OP by Kazan:
How NOT to attack bombers. Pictures from a B-17 sortie earlier today:
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/hownot1.jpg)
Plain six attack with marginal speed advantage. It would even had been far less if I had not deliberately slowed down to get the Pony quicker into close range (a favourite trick of mine ;))
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6628/hownot2.jpg)
Even with a high speed plane, attacking from six o'clock is a serious and unnecessary risk. Instead of using his speed to get in front & above me, he decided to press the attack and fly directly into my stream of bullets. Speed is not that advantageous in this case. Result:
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/889/hownot3.jpg)
classy move to hide the names as to avoid embarassment <S>