Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: SmokinLoon on February 03, 2011, 05:46:11 PM
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I have film. I will be sending it in, but I I am posting it here to see if anyone else has some funky stuff going on with the Panther's armor.
I was in a Panther, slightly angled to my left (10-15 degrees?) 2800 + yards out from an M4/76mm when he connected on my right front tread. When viewing the film, the shot went through the entire length of the right tread and into the very rear of the engine compartment and destroyed my Panther.
Anyone else having :headscratch: moments while in the Panther? I seem to be destroyed quite a bit by M4/76mm from 2000 yards and further, on even ground or when it favor me.
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Keep in mind that what you see in your film, and what happened on his FE are not necessarily one in the same. That said the only odd thing I've seen so far Pthr vs. M4 was when I fired an HE round at a Panther at about 2k distance aiming for the ground just right of his tank in an attempt to track him. The shot went just a hair long and hit the ground behind and to the side of him and he blew up so I'm guessing if the Panther has an Achilles Heel its the engine compartment. I've found at longer ranges the Panther is super tough, the other day I was in a Tiger slugging it out with a Panther at about 2800yds and it was basically a stalemate.
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Keep in mind that what you see in your film, and what happened on his FE are not necessarily one in the same. That said the only odd thing I've seen so far Pthr vs. M4 was when I fired an HE round at a Panther at about 2k distance aiming for the ground just right of his tank in an attempt to track him. The shot went just a hair long and hit the ground behind and to the side of him and he blew up so I'm guessing if the Panther has an Achilles Heel its the engine compartment. I've found at longer ranges the Panther is super tough, the other day I was in a Tiger slugging it out with a Panther at about 2800yds and it was basically a stalemate.
A duel at 2800 yards between a Panther G and a Sherman M4A3/76mm... by all data provided and by all account given, the Panther should have no trouble shrugging off rounds from the 76mm from the Sherman regardless of where it impacts. As I stated, I think at most the Panther would have been tracked, but the film shows the shot going in the right front track, and exiting maybe 1/8th or 1/4th from the right edge of the engine compartment. The angle of impact alone, if the track had not there, would have deflected off the side armor. The angle of the impact is at most 15 degrees.
I wish I knew how to grab a picture from an AH film. I'd post it here. I've frozen the "tracer" as it impacts the Panther numerous time while viewing the film. From tip to tip the "tracer" is longer than the Panther it is quite clear the entry and the exit path. The angle of impact is easy to see as well.
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You would need your opponent's film to see where his round impacted you. Your film will be close, but not as accurate as his. Your film has a perfect representation of where your rounds hit, not hits on yourself from others
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I have killed panthers with 3 rounds of 37 from il2. panther's are easily killed, i mentioned this before, not sure if its a bug or whatever.
semp
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The IL2 can easily kill a panther because its top armor and side armor are not any tougher than a panzer.
It is ONLY tough in the front armor and the turret...and youd be wise to sit back 2k+.
I have killed panthers with a t34-85 with HVAP with 2 shots to the turret within 1500 yards.
Long story short don't park diagonal to your enemy like you normally would park directly towards them in the panther.
The panther is not a supertank like the Tiger....I have killed several of them with a m8 in 2 shots from the sides and rear.
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It seems to be soft in the lower chin, the few times i had died in it, it was always a front shot low on the chin!. that is the spot i like to hit panzers, i am not sure that it couldn't be going under the tank and bouncing up tho, i do know that a few guys have found this soft spot, i try to keep the hull behind a hill at all times and the front towards the enemy, don't think i have lost a turret in one yet tho!
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An Il-2 vs Panther is no question in favor of the Il-2. It is not difficult to punch through the thin armor on top, and the side and rear armor is marginally better than that of a M4A3 Sherman or Panzer IV. That isn't the issue.
I'm under the impression the the film of the person who destroyed my Panther is immaterial because regardless of where his film showed he hit, the impact on my tank from my view is what matters. Is that not correct?
The T34/85, M4A3/76mm, and Panzer IV all have a fighting chance to defeat the frontal armor on the Panther out to 1600 yards depending on angle of impact, etc. I have no issue getting destroyed inside those ranges while in a Panther, especially if the round impacts the side armor relatively perpendicular to the side. The impact on the right front tread that went 3/4th the length of the tread and into the engine compartment at a very shallow angle is the issue (10-15 degrees max). Mind you that the M4/76mm shot that destroyed my Panther originated further than 2800 yards.
Outside 2400 yards though... I thought I only really had to fear the Tiger, Firefly, and other Panthers on hits to the front of the Panther tank. How wrong I have been.
I will figure out how to grab the still from the film and get the image posted.
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I'm under the impression the the film of the person who destroyed my Panther is immaterial because regardless of where his film showed he hit, the impact on my tank from my view is what matters. Is that not correct?
Nope, you've got it backwards.
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Here is a meager attempt at posting a pic. I will post more if needed. Again, the key is the shot came from 2800+ yards out.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/JRBL1A1/PantherKillShot.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/JRBL1A1/PantherKillShot2.jpg)
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you still need the other guy's film to see where it actually hit. the view from your end is just an approximation
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you still need the other guy's film to see where it actually hit. the view from your end is just an approximation
Correct. Send the film to HTC the data is there for them to check, but the film viewer doesn't show it. If there is an error/bug they will be able to spot it. Using the film viewer to show what the "other guy" did is never a good idea.
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I sent 28 seconds of film in to HTC and am anxiously waiting for their reply. :) This is the first time I've ever really heard that it is the shooter's view that matters more so than the target. I would have thought it to be the other way around due to the infamous lag issues.
So based on the pictures I showed, just how different can the shooters film be? We were both stationary for at least 3-4 seconds prior to him connecting with the kill shot. I wouldn't think lag would have been much of an issue. If either of us had been moving during the shooting then yes I could see how lag would have effected the outcome, but that wasn't the case. He only connected once... AND it was from 2800 yards out... 2800 yards. BTW, while zooming in and out I was able to get a view from inside the tank and the round connected mid way back on the lower hull were the armor is 40mm thick, but again the angle of impact was still 15 degrees at most, probably less. AND not to mention that the shot came through the track as well.
At 2000 yards, the M4A3/76mm can penetrate 97mm of armor at best. At 2800 yards, the Panther should have easily shrugged off the rounds from anything but a Tiger, Firefly, or another Panther. It is the range of the kill shot that boggles my mind. One would think with the shot coming in slightly off center, the angle of the side armor should have deflected it off if it would have been a clean hit.
I'll just wait and see what HTC says about the debacle. There has to be some logical explanation on how the M4A3/76mm was able to pull it off.
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I sent 28 seconds of film in to HTC and am anxiously waiting for their reply. :) This is the first time I've ever really heard that it is the shooter's view that matters more so than the target. I would have thought it to be the other way around due to the infamous lag issues.
because basically when he shoots at you, it's his computer that decides it was a hit... his computer tells yours "youre dead", and your computer says "ok i'm dead"
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This is the first time I've ever really heard that it is the shooter's view that matters more so than the target. I would have thought it to be the other way around due to the infamous lag issues.
Easy to explain if you think about it. What would happen if the target's view would matter, not the shooters? Where would a player then have to aim to hit his target, especially in a dogfight? ;)
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Easy to explain if you think about it. What would happen if the target's view would matter, not the shooters? Where would a player then have to aim to hit his target, especially in a dogfight? ;)
The Euros certainly do not aim dead on, they account for lag. You need to listen to ZENZEN (Plymouth, UK) howl on vox sometime. :D
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The Euros certainly do not aim dead on, they account for lag.
When shooting at the enemy, we don't. When being shot at, we better take it into account :)
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The IL2 can easily kill a panther because its top armor and side armor are not any tougher than a panzer.
It is ONLY tough in the front armor and the turret...and youd be wise to sit back 2k+.
I have killed panthers with a t34-85 with HVAP with 2 shots to the turret within 1500 yards.
Long story short don't park diagonal to your enemy like you normally would park directly towards them in the panther.
The panther is not a supertank like the Tiger....I have killed several of them with a m8 in 2 shots from the sides and rear.
Ummm the Tiger is pretty much a POS too, should be untouchable by American armor 2k and out.
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Ummm the Tiger is pretty much a POS too, should be untouchable by American armor 2k and out.
BUMP. I hope HTC is reviewing the film I sent in. I'm really very curious as to how at 2800 yards an M4/76mm defeated a Panther. ;) I hope to hear something soon! :pray
As far as the Tiger goes....
I don't think the M4A3/76mm can defeat a Tiger at 2000 yards and further, especially from the front. AH's own stats show the M4 76mm's 2000 yard penetration capability at 97mm of armor, and the Tiger is at minimum 100mm. Add in a wee bit of a non-perpendicular impact (canted position of Tiger) and the chances of the M4's 76mm defeating the Tiger only get worse.
Remember that range and impact angle are two major trump cards. That goes for all tanks.
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Any verdict??? I've heard nothing, no reply via email or here in the forums. I hope I didnt submit that in vain. :cry
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A duel at 2800 yards between a Panther G and a Sherman M4A3/76mm... by all data provided and by all account given, the Panther should have no trouble shrugging off rounds from the 76mm from the Sherman regardless of where it impacts.
According to the in game information I wouldn't say that this statement is entirely accurate. The 76mm gun on the Sherman will penetrate 134mm/115mm/97mm at 0, 1k, 2k respectively. Not counting the turret the thickest armor on the Panther (again using the in game data) is 80mm. I'm not factoring in and angle of impact here and those penetration values are at 0 deflection but what you described as happening doesn't sound that far out of reach at all.
Of course there could be a bug, but depending on angle, range and where the round actually hit damage may not be as far fetched as you'd think.
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According to the in game information I wouldn't say that this statement is entirely accurate. The 76mm gun on the Sherman will penetrate 134mm/115mm/97mm at 0, 1k, 2k respectively. Not counting the turret the thickest armor on the Panther (again using the in game data) is 80mm. I'm not factoring in and angle of impact here and those penetration values are at 0 deflection but what you described as happening doesn't sound that far out of reach at all.
Of course there could be a bug, but depending on angle, range and where the round actually hit damage may not be as far fetched as you'd think.
None of the armor on a Panther is 0 degrees, and we all know what sloped armor does: it "increases" armor thickness and increases the chance of a deflection. Regardless of where it hit, the impact was not perpendicular vertically or horizontally. The pics I posted show exactly the angle it hit horizontally, and the vertical impact would not have even allowed the point of the projectile to connect with the armor, so it "should" have been a glance shot, I believe.
I would have not brought it up if I didn't think there was a legit reason, but at that range the Panther should only fear the Tiger, Firefly, or another Panther. Just a few days ago I had a spawn "camped", if you will by performing a blocking action between their spawn and town. I sat out in the open, 2400 yards + from their spawn. They upped M4A3/76mm, Panzer IV's, and T34/85. I was taking round after round after round and the Panther shrugged them off. As I watched the film, I counted 22 enemy tank hits on my Panther, and I ended up with 8 kills. THAT is what a Panther should be able to do. So the 2800 yard miracle shot to the tread makes me go :headscratch: .
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To me it looks like it penetrated the armor behind the road wheels (which I'm assuming isn't very thick, though I may be wrong) and set fire to either ammunition or fuel, which kills the tank.
As to the above conversation, one of the older flight sims (Air Warrior? WarBirds?) used the target's front end for damage calculations...I hear it was pretty horrendous.
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To me it looks like it penetrated the armor behind the road wheels (which I'm assuming isn't very thick, though I may be wrong) and set fire to either ammunition or fuel, which kills the tank.
As to the above conversation, one of the older flight sims (Air Warrior? WarBirds?) used the target's front end for damage calculations...I hear it was pretty horrendous.
The armor is 40mm thick on the lower hull sides. Remember the key here is 2800 yards. Then, the angle of impact. Then, the round would have had to penetrate the front of the track and wheels for the first 1/3 or 1/2 of the length of the entire tread, THEN penetrate the lower hull side armor.
I hoping HTC can give an explanation as to why it happened. If the results show the impact was legit and not as the film shows then I'll move on. I'm still flabber-gasted at the range.
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Well, keep in mind as well that if the damage model is as in-depth as HTC claims, spalling from the armor could have set a fire or killed the driver. I wouldn't count the track and wheels for much stopping ability either.
I'd like to hear the result as well, though.
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Yes. Thread is STILL alive. ;)
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Stayin' alive, staying alive.. ha ha ah staying aliiii iiii iiii ve. [insert disco guitar here]
;)