Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MarineUS on February 27, 2011, 02:22:52 PM
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(http://i52.tinypic.com/4idlr5.jpg)
Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
9 hours ago
KINGSTON, N.Y. — A vintage military jet, now privately owned and flown in air shows, crashed into ice on the Hudson River on Saturday as it came in for a landing at an airport in Kingston, authorities said. The pilot was missing and feared dead.
A search for the pilot, identified as Michael Faraldi, 38, of Germantown, was suspended late in the evening, state police said.
Divers searching the river for signs of Faraldi discovered that the front section of the plane, including the cockpit, had struck the river bed in about 5 feet of water, police said. The search was expected to resume Sunday.
The accident happened at about 1:30 p.m. near the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge, which spans the river midway between Albany and New York City.
Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Holly Baker said the aircraft was partially submerged after the crash. Only one person was known to be aboard the plane when it went down.
Faraldi was piloting the plane from Nashville, Tenn., to an airport in Ghent, N.Y., state police said.
The jet, a British-made BAC 167 Strikemaster, was headed to Kingston-Ulster Airport from an airfield Johnstown, Pa., when it went down, Baker said. The aircraft made a low pass over the airstrip before hitting the river.
There was no immediate word on whether the pilot reported any problems before the crash.
The jet was a type of training and light attack aircraft first made in the late 1960s and used by various air defense forces in the Middle East, Africa, South America and elsewhere. In recent years, it was owned by Dragon Aviation, a company that flies fighter jets in air shows all over the country.
A snarling green dragon adorned the jet's nose.
"This has got to be a bad dream," said the company's president, Andy Anderson, as he traveled to the crash scene Saturday afternoon. He said the pilot, who he declined to name, was "a good, good friend."
A person who answered the phone Saturday at Kingston-Ulster Airport said he couldn't answer any questions. The airstrip predominantly serves recreational aircraft and is home to a flying school. It sits just a few hundred yards from the river.
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:pray
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The body was recovered today. :frown:
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sad to hear :(
:pray :salute
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Has there been any speculation or official determination on the cause of the crash?
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Anyone find a FAA preliminary on this yet?
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i live half an hour from Ghent, NY....scary. :salute
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Has there been any speculation or official determination on the cause of the crash?
According to what I read in the news he pulled up for a vertical climb (apparently overestimated the power to weight ratio), stalled. At that altitude and in such an aircraft it's next to impossible to recover from a stall in such a short time. Common cause: low level aerobatics.
Again I would like to repeat that I concluded that based on what the news said, the original information might be inaccurate.
EDIT: Another news article says witnesses sow that when he pulled up he either restarted the throttle or the engine lost power.
Anyone find a FAA preliminary on this yet?
Give it about 6 month, they usually take a while.
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I have family in Germantown and have driven by that airport plenty of times. It's very close to the Hudson so it's
not unreasonable that an overshoot would land in it.
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EDIT: Another news article says witnesses sow that when he pulled up he either restarted the throttle or the engine lost power.
i can't find the article i originally saw that said he had refueled the plane did a fly by for friends and family near by and had pulled up, think it said at a 90˚ angle, and the plane lost power and it nosed over. never said at what angle it went in to the Hudson.
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Dang, I've stayed in Germantown for a few weeks and seen a little bit of the airport too
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Any speculation on a compressor stall?
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pulled up for a vertical climb (apparently overestimated the power to weight ratio), stalled.
14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:
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14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:
Should be fine for the aircraft but sometimes poop happens and bad things happen to good people. Mechanical equipment; no matter how well maintained fails at the most in opportune time.
:salute to the pilot....fair winds and clear skies sir. You got to do something that many of us only dream of doing for a living. :pray for his family or think positive thoughts for them. They need it.
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Should be fine for the aircraft but sometimes poop happens and bad things happen to good people. Mechanical equipment; no matter how well maintained fails at the most in opportune time.
:salute to the pilot....fair winds and clear skies sir. You got to do something that many of us only dream of doing for a living. :pray for his family or think positive thoughts for them. They need it.
Well said.... +1
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14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:
I don't know, just saying what I read.
Waiting for the NTSB report.
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14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:
No way in hell a Strikemaster has a 2:1 Thrust to Weight ratio.
More like 1:2. They weigh something like 6000lbs for takeoff (not a big jet) with about 3000lbs of thrust (not terribly much)
This was a doctor who was flying in his new toy that he just bought. I read one report (grain of salt) he had just bought the thing or taken delivery that day. He didn't have much experience and he was putting on an airshow at home. If I were to fill out an SMS (Safety Management System) form for this I think it would spontaneously combust.
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Should be fine for the aircraft but sometimes poop happens and bad things happen to good people. Mechanical equipment; no matter how well maintained fails at the most in opportune time.
:salute to the pilot....fair winds and clear skies sir. You got to do something that many of us only dream of doing for a living. :pray for his family or think positive thoughts for them. They need it.
Indeed <S>
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He didn't have much experience
You don't know that. Just the fact that someone let him fly it says he was not a bad pilot. He has a multi-engine rating & instrument, so it's not like it was his first solo.
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You don't know that. Just the fact that someone let him fly it says he was not a bad pilot. He has a multi-engine rating & instrument, so it's not like it was his first solo.
I'd let myself fly my own jet too. There are plenty of people with more money than sense and at first blush this isn't any different. He was a private pilot with a VFR limitation on his multi ticket and a VFR limitation with his Strikemaster type rating which was issued in December. The VFR limitation isn't a big deal or terribly unusual for airplanes like this depending on how the airplane you're flying is equipped however the fact he isn't even qualified to fly it in the clouds speaks to experience. He didn't have much experience in this jet, seemingly no other jet experience, definitely none as a PIC and this was also his first experimental aircraft type rating.
He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it. He's dead now and the only people that lose are the ones that cared for him. He's not the first doctor or well to do individual to kill themselves in a cool boys toy and he won't be the last. What he wasn't was a profesisonal aviator. You don't need to be an ATP to be a professional but it does take a certain mindset. Tailwinds, hope it was worth it.
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I'd let myself fly my own jet too. There are plenty of people with more money than sense and at first blush this isn't any different. He was a private pilot with a VFR limitation on his multi ticket and a VFR limitation with his Strikemaster type rating which was issued in December. The VFR limitation isn't a big deal or terribly unusual for airplanes like this depending on how the airplane you're flying is equipped however the fact he isn't even qualified to fly it in the clouds speaks to experience. He didn't have much experience in this jet, seemingly no other jet experience, definitely none as a PIC and this was also his first experimental aircraft type rating.
He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it. He's dead now and the only people that lose are the ones that cared for him. He's not the first doctor or well to do individual to kill themselves in a cool boys toy and he won't be the last. What he wasn't was a profesisonal aviator. You don't need to be an ATP to be a professional but it does take a certain mindset. Tailwinds, hope it was worth it.
I was not aware that the jet was his. I agree with most of the things you say, there are a lot of people with more money than brains. Low altitude aerobatics is also one of common causes of crashes. My point is that it's not like he just solo'd, sure he did not have commercial, ATP, low level aerobatic waiver, ect.. but we don't know specifically what kind of training he went though. Also one of the news reports I read says that a witness saw that he either cut his throttle or lost the engine (I don't know how true this is). I don't think we can say that it was pilot error until an official investigation.
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5KN weight at SL.
More like 40kN
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Lots of pilots with more money than brains.
If I recall correctly there was a GM CEO awhile back with a fighter pilot attitude and millions of dollars.
It didn't take him long to kill himself.
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More like 40kN
oops my mistake, 40-50KN.
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He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it.
I am confused. How do you get experience if you should not do what you don;t have experience doing?
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There is something to be said for experience both in the type of jet he was flying (minimal) as well as the type of flying he was doing. The former he didn't have any, the latter I don't know.
He learned a lot in his last seconds I imagine.
Using aerobatic waivers as an example you don't start off by getting a ground level authorization. You chip away from your 1500' minimum. 1000, 500, 100, etc until you have enough experience to safely do such things. You start small at a safe altitude with steep turns, stalls, slow(ish) flight and high speed flight to get a feel for how the airplane handles. Chandelles, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, loops may come next at varying speeds. Then you chip away at the altitude you're performing them once you've mastered the basics. You don't start off in a new jet you just took delivery of and fly even impromptu airshows safely.
You especially don't do these things in a new to you airplane you don't have any history with. I can handle an engine canning at a worst-case time when I'm at 12,000' with time to recover from whatever lousy situation I find myself in or get out of the airplane. That opportunity doesn't present itself when stuff goes wrong and you don't even know how the airplane might react when you're in a reduced/no thrust situation pointing at the sky at under 100 knots.
This guy did it wrong and he died. I'd encourage pilots to learn from it because this stuff can kill you and not to think for a moment it won't if you let it.
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More like 40kN
newton, abbr. N, unit of force in the mks system of units, which is based on the metric system; it is the force that produces an acceleration of 1 meter per second per second when exerted on a mass of 1 kilogram
It is not a measure of weight.
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umm ... yes it is.
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umm ... yes it is.
umm ... NO it is not
The newton as, bcadoo said, a measurement of force
Strip
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mmmmkay, whats the unit for weight then?
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In this system of units its the kilogram....kg
Strip
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nope, thats a unit of mass.
try again ...
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I see where your going with this and I am not playing along, if you want to delve into the realm of physics and the special measurements they have be my guest.
Here on Earth the most meaningful and wide spread measurement is the kilogram....
Strip
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Ok...so technically I mis-spoke, and should have said 'mass'.
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No you didn't bcadoo, some one wants to play semantics with arcane forms of measurements....
Interestingly enough the Strikemaster weighs 4,219 kilograms (9,300 lbs) with a thrust of 15.2 KN (3,140 lbs), I believe that would be a lot less than some WW2 birds.
Strip
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No you didn't bcadoo, some one wants to play semantics with arcane forms of measurements....
Arcane? Hello, it's 21st century and we are talking about airplanes.
The newton as, bcadoo said, a measurement of force
Weight is a force.
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Arcane? Hello, it's 21st century and we are talking about airplanes.
Weight is a force.
Heh, move a rock and look what crawls out from under it. You are alive :O
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well I'm sorry it ended up as a multi-post hijack, but you guys tried to correct bighorn when he was in fact right ...
back OT my point was that the Provost shouldnt have problems doing some basic aerobatics if its fit, the RAF used them for displays before the Gnats came along.
if some rich guy wants to take those kind of risks, and he isnt going to endanger anyone else or destroy a unique aircraft, then I say fair play to him. :salute
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Actually gravity is the force and weight is the magnitude of the force.
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Actually gravity is the force and weight is the magnitude of the force.
As far as airplanes are concerned, the four forces are Drag, Weight, Lift, and Thrust
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Arcane and obscure, the newton as a measurement of weight really only applies when comparing objects in different gravity environments.
I don't know about your third line RTHolmes, some times people really do need protecting from their selves.
Strip
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You are alive :O
Against the wishes of many :devil
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No you didn't bcadoo, some one wants to play semantics with arcane forms of measurements....
Interestingly enough the Strikemaster weighs 4,219 kilograms (9,300 lbs) with a thrust of 15.2 KN (3,140 lbs), I believe that would be a lot less than some WW2 birds.
Strip
bolded.....funny how that seems to happen in nearly any thread. :aok
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Against the wishes of many :devil
Heh, party pooper :furious
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As far as airplanes are concerned, the five forces are Drag, Weight, Lift, Thrust, and $$$$.
Fixed. Unfortunatley one was missing here.
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Fixed. Unfortunatley one was missing here.
we've got a guy locally around here that flies an l-39. he's run it off the end of the runway at south jersey regional a couple times already. he's since moved to milleville from what i heard.....and i think he lost his canopy on take off a couple years ago. it landed in someones back yard.
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In fairness to the departed - not all of us with the means to buy an aircraft are retarded behind the stick. Not saying this guy was - but the L-39 CAP just mentioned, jeez.
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In fairness to the departed - not all of us with the means to buy an aircraft are retarded behind the stick. Not saying this guy was - but the L-39 CAP just mentioned, jeez.
I dont think he is reffering to High Performance aircraft owners, but low time pilots who think they are the best.
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Golfer might be a bit harsh but many of us have experienced first hand the "doctor killer syndrome". Ask Ill say is that poor devil had his TopGun moment, sadly the persons he was trying to impress are left wondering if he was the victim of an unfortunate mechanical malfunction, or just an another rich flying clown :(
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In fairness to the departed - not all of us with the means to buy an aircraft are retarded behind the stick. Not saying this guy was - but the L-39 CAP just mentioned, jeez.
wolf.....none of the guys i know that know this guy will fly with him. it's ashame too, 'cause it'd be cool to get a ride in one of them.
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we've got a guy locally around here that flies an l-39. he's run it off the end of the runway at south jersey regional a couple times already. he's since moved to milleville from what i heard.....and i think he lost his canopy on take off a couple years ago. it landed in someones back yard.
:uhoh
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http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=e49bd9a9-8430-45e2-8da9-955295167de9&Dynamic=1&Range=WEEK&FromDate=02%2F24%2F2011&ToDate=03%2F03%2F2011&Category=%2Findex.cfm (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=e49bd9a9-8430-45e2-8da9-955295167de9&Dynamic=1&Range=WEEK&FromDate=02%2F24%2F2011&ToDate=03%2F03%2F2011&Category=%2Findex.cfm)
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Maybe there are "notes" in the POH for not going vertical with less than xxx lb of fuel, or throttles/speed combo ... or whatever specific aero restrictions pilots tend to forget. Maybe something came loose ... maybe this ... maybe that. :frown: The guy's toast :salute
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Maybe there are "notes" in the POH for not going vertical with less than xxx lb of fuel, or throttles/speed combo ... or whatever specific aero restrictions pilots tend to forget. Maybe something came loose ... maybe this ... maybe that. :frown: The guy's toast :salute
This is coming from my ignorance, but no ejection sit on those planes?
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This is coming from my ignorance, but no ejection sit on those planes?
military aircraft that are "demil'd" for civilian use have the ejection seats disabled.
i was told it had to do with the fact that a civilain may feel the need to eject, and allow the plane to plummet into a populated area.
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military aircraft that are "demil'd" for civilian use have the ejection seats disabled.
i was told it had to do with the fact that a civilain may feel the need to eject, and allow the plane to plummet into a populated area.
That's not true. It's a maintenance issue for the seat and it's perfectly acceptable to have a hot ejection seat in an airplane. It's a giant pain in the rear to maintain a proper (read: safe) ejection seat as well as a pretty fair expense. There aren't a lot of egress specialized mechanics running around in the civilian world but there are airplanes out there that have them.
I can name at least two L39s that have a hot seat but plenty of others that don't for example.
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That's not true. It's a maintenance issue for the seat and it's perfectly acceptable to have a hot ejection seat in an airplane. It's a giant pain in the rear to maintain a proper (read: safe) ejection seat as well as a pretty fair expense. There aren't a lot of egress specialized mechanics running around in the civilian world but there are airplanes out there that have them.
I can name at least two L39s that have a hot seat but plenty of others that don't for example.
ok...i didn't know that. i was going on what i had been told. :aok
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You are allowed to have an ejection seat in your experimental aircraft, a long as it's used for R&D, exib or air race. But you have to service it, placard it, secure it, and notify the airport manager that explosive is inboard. It's usually more money and assles that private owners want to deal with.
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Golfer beat me to it :cheers:
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lol
well..i can admit when i was wrong......unlike some people on these boards. :devil
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It's a maintenance issue for the seat and it's perfectly acceptable to have a hot ejection seat in an airplane.
yup, just another way to cut corners, and costs, thereby increasing risk. mil aircraft are maintained to spec, private ex-mil aircraft are maintained to budget. given the costs involved in running a mil jet, I'd be amazed if theres a single privately owned ex-mil jet in the world which would pass inspection in a NATO airforce.
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I can think of numerous that are in far superior condition than they were in service.
That said a hot ejection seat is a hassle and poses it's own risks that can create a headache that outweighs the benefit. Not to mention the technology depending on the installation might cause more damage to the pilot than a forced landing or bailout.
I don't fault someone or have any feelings one way or the other for deactivating their ejection seat(s)
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I can think of numerous that are in far superior condition than they were in service.
That said a hot ejection seat is a hassle and poses it's own risks that can create a headache that outweighs the benefit. Not to mention the technology depending on the installation might cause more damage to the pilot than a forced landing or bailout.
I don't fault someone or have any feelings one way or the other for deactivating their ejection seat(s)
We talking aircraft that are a product/child of war time or peace time? Operated by mostly draftees or volunteers? I'm not arguing against you, but this stuff matters IMO. And I agree, I've seen some really worn and used birds come out of the military and have a fantastic second life in good, dedicated, civi hands. The military uses them in war, and loves babying them in peace. At home base the COs like to see their reflection off of each rivet, at the cost of a units flying status or an individual's career if so be it. Out in the field they want as many flying and doing their job as possible, and are very content to just have every one of them just make it back home, day after day after day.
And I agree with the ejection seats being a lot of hastle. Might only be worth it for certain experimentals and performers who could possibley find themselves in a situation only survivable by an imediate ejection, if at all. For your average tail-drager aviator though, I would think there are alternative options that would be a better investment for the money?