Author Topic: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY  (Read 3626 times)

Offline MachFly

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2011, 07:56:35 PM »
14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:

I don't know, just saying what I read.
Waiting for the NTSB report.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2011, 08:03:23 PM »
14KN thrust, 5KN weight at SL. should be ok going vert? :headscratch:

No way in hell a Strikemaster has a 2:1 Thrust to Weight ratio.

More like 1:2.  They weigh something like 6000lbs for takeoff (not a big jet) with about 3000lbs of thrust (not terribly much)

This was a doctor who was flying in his new toy that he just bought.  I read one report (grain of salt) he had just bought the thing or taken delivery that day.  He didn't have much experience and he was putting on an airshow at home.  If I were to fill out an SMS (Safety Management System) form for this I think it would spontaneously combust.

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2011, 08:13:06 PM »
Should be fine for the aircraft but sometimes poop happens and bad things happen to good people. Mechanical equipment; no matter how well maintained fails at the most in opportune time.

 :salute to the pilot....fair winds and clear skies sir. You got to do something that many of us only dream of doing for a living.  :pray for his family or think positive thoughts for them. They need it.

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Offline MachFly

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 08:52:53 PM »
He didn't have much experience

You don't know that. Just the fact that someone let him fly it says he was not a bad pilot. He has a multi-engine rating & instrument, so it's not like it was his first solo.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:05:02 PM by MachFly »
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Golfer

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 09:16:36 PM »
You don't know that. Just the fact that someone let him fly it says he was not a bad pilot. He has a multi-engine rating & instrument, so it's not like it was his first solo.

I'd let myself fly my own jet too.  There are plenty of people with more money than sense and at first blush this isn't any different.  He was a private pilot with a VFR limitation on his multi ticket and a VFR limitation with his Strikemaster type rating which was issued in December. The VFR limitation isn't a big deal or terribly unusual for airplanes like this depending on how the airplane you're flying is equipped however the fact he isn't even qualified to fly it in the clouds speaks to experience. He didn't have much experience in this jet, seemingly no other jet experience, definitely none as a PIC and this was also his first experimental aircraft type rating.

He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it.  He's dead now and the only people that lose are the ones that cared for him.  He's not the first doctor or well to do individual to kill themselves in a cool boys toy and he won't be the last.  What he wasn't was a profesisonal aviator.  You don't need to be an ATP to be a professional but it does take a certain mindset.  Tailwinds, hope it was worth it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:18:50 PM by Golfer »

Offline MachFly

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 09:29:00 PM »
I'd let myself fly my own jet too.  There are plenty of people with more money than sense and at first blush this isn't any different.  He was a private pilot with a VFR limitation on his multi ticket and a VFR limitation with his Strikemaster type rating which was issued in December. The VFR limitation isn't a big deal or terribly unusual for airplanes like this depending on how the airplane you're flying is equipped however the fact he isn't even qualified to fly it in the clouds speaks to experience. He didn't have much experience in this jet, seemingly no other jet experience, definitely none as a PIC and this was also his first experimental aircraft type rating.

He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it.  He's dead now and the only people that lose are the ones that cared for him.  He's not the first doctor or well to do individual to kill themselves in a cool boys toy and he won't be the last.  What he wasn't was a profesisonal aviator.  You don't need to be an ATP to be a professional but it does take a certain mindset.  Tailwinds, hope it was worth it.

I was not aware that the jet was his. I agree with most of the things you say, there are a lot of people with more money than brains. Low altitude aerobatics is also one of common causes of crashes. My point is that it's not like he just solo'd, sure he did not have commercial, ATP, low level aerobatic waiver, ect.. but we don't know specifically what kind of training he went though. Also one of the news reports I read says that a witness saw that he either cut his throttle or lost the engine (I don't know how true this is). I don't think we can say that it was pilot error until an official investigation.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:31:05 PM by MachFly »
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2011, 09:56:40 PM »

Offline Tupac

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2011, 10:52:54 PM »
Lots of pilots with more money than brains.

If I recall correctly there was a GM CEO awhile back with a fighter pilot attitude and millions of dollars.

It didn't take him long to kill himself.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2011, 08:25:28 AM »
More like 40kN

oops my mistake, 40-50KN.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2011, 09:35:41 AM »
He didn't have the experience to be doing what he did but he had the money to do it.  

I am confused.  How do you get experience if you should not do what you don;t have experience doing? 
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Golfer

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2011, 09:45:31 AM »
There is something to be said for experience both in the type of jet he was flying (minimal) as well as the type of flying he was doing.  The former he didn't have any, the latter I don't know.

He learned a lot in his last seconds I imagine.

Using aerobatic waivers as an example you don't start off by getting a ground level authorization.  You chip away from your 1500' minimum.  1000, 500, 100, etc until you have enough experience to safely do such things.  You start small at a safe altitude with steep turns, stalls, slow(ish) flight and high speed flight to get a feel for how the airplane handles.  Chandelles, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, loops may come next at varying speeds.  Then you chip away at the altitude you're performing them once you've mastered the basics.  You don't start off in a new jet you just took delivery of and fly even impromptu airshows safely.

You especially don't do these things in a new to you airplane you don't have any history with.  I can handle an engine canning at a worst-case time when I'm at 12,000' with time to recover from whatever lousy situation I find myself in or get out of the airplane.  That opportunity doesn't present itself when stuff goes wrong and you don't even know how the airplane might react when you're in a reduced/no thrust situation pointing at the sky at under 100 knots.

This guy did it wrong and he died.  I'd encourage pilots to learn from it because this stuff can kill you and not to think for a moment it won't if you let it.

Offline bcadoo

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2011, 10:05:00 AM »
More like 40kN



newton, abbr. N, unit of force in the mks system of units, which is based on the metric system; it is the force that produces an acceleration of 1 meter per second per second when exerted on a mass of 1 kilogram

It is not a measure of weight.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2011, 11:01:45 AM »
umm ... yes it is.
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Offline Strip

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2011, 11:36:55 AM »
umm ... yes it is.

umm ... NO it is not

The newton as, bcadoo said, a measurement of force

Strip

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Vintage jet crashes in Hudson near Kingston, NY
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2011, 11:47:06 AM »
mmmmkay, whats the unit for weight then?

...
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli