Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tyrannis on March 02, 2011, 09:47:12 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110302/ap_on_sc/us_eastern_cougar
this is kind of sad :( to think, the way civilization is advancing and engulfing the planet, this same thing could happen to all animals one day.
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Dinosaurs are extinct, and we had nothing to do with it.
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well thank heavens we still have them around here, beautiful creatures
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Dang it, I like chasing around the more mature hotties.
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My first question is whether or not their is a difference between this one and the ones found out West. If not, you can easily transplant though that invites other questions, like sanity.
My family is mostly out West, where I was raised. My Dad is a USN Vet from Korea, served on the USS St Paul (CA-73) as a fire director for the 5", with a couple tours of duty. He left the Navy and moved to the Mountains of Utah. He actually attempted to sign up for Aces High at my urging but when he found someone had already taken the call sign 'mntnman' he dumped it. He's pretty stuburn.
In any case, as a true mountainman who has trapped over 200 blackbears in his life, he has more then a few stories about the cougar. Incredible animals. He has even been stalked by one, creepy story. He was walking his trapping line up in the high Uintah Mountains, catching beaver. He walked to the end of the line then as he walked back he would check the traps. When he got to the end he checked his furthest trap then began return. He went about 50 feet and spotted lion tracks in the snow. Creeped him out but really got to him when he found these tracks picked him up back at the truck and followed him over a mile up the canyon. And this lion was no more then 50 feet behind him when he turned around.
I've got dozens of lion stories. The big fat question of the day, why would you want one of these things parked in your backyard? Cute n all but they are designed to kill things. Just say'n...
Boo
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My first question is whether or not their is a difference between this one and the ones found out West. If not, you can easily transplant though that invites other questions, like sanity.
My family is mostly out West, where I was raised. My Dad is a USN Vet from Korea, served on the USS St Paul (CA-73) as a fire director for the 5", with a couple tours of duty. He left the Navy and moved to the Mountains of Utah. He actually attempted to sign up for Aces High at my urging but when he found someone had already taken the call sign 'mntnman' he dumped it. He's pretty stuburn.
In any case, as a true mountainman who has trapped over 200 blackbears in his life, he has more then a few stories about the cougar. Incredible animals. He has even been stalked by one, creepy story. He was walking his trapping line up in the high Uintah Mountains, catching beaver. He walked to the end of the line then as he walked back he would check the traps. When he got to the end he checked his furthest trap then began return. He went about 50 feet and spotted lion tracks in the snow. Creeped him out but really got to him when he found these tracks picked him up back at the truck and followed him over a mile up the canyon. And this lion was no more then 50 feet behind him when he turned around.
I've got dozens of lion stories. The big fat question of the day, why would you want one of these things parked in your backyard? Cute n all but they are designed to kill things. Just say'n...
Boo
true they are designed to kill, but think about it. do we really have the right to kill off a whole species of animal that roamed this earth longer than we have?
i find it the same way with all animals.
if we get killed by them, then its our own fault for wandering into its territory. most of humanity has lost all its respect for nature. and then get a hard dose of reality slapped in there face when nature retaliates.
if you get attacked by the animal, by all means defend yourself. but to go out and hunt the animal to sell its fur and body just for a little $$$? that is unacceptable.
theres ways of keeping cougers out of human zones and humans out of couger territory without bloodshed being needed on ether side.
sadly tho humans get greedy. and over expand. pushing animals to the brink of there habitat. you can only push a wild animal back so many times before it desides to lash out.
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My bro in law used to be the Commander of the National Guard base in Utah. Several years back they trapped a lion, tagged it and put a tracking device on it. They then turned it loose and just watched. If you know what Utah looks like they were shocked at where this lion went. It went from Camp Williams, crossed I-15, went through Lehi, American Fork, into Lindon and Orem. Went through allies, backyards, down streets, along canals, etc. It then went onto the base of Mnt Timpanogos and followed the base of that mountain back to Camp Williams. Literally this lion went through backyards, etc. They checked missing animals, no way to prove it but they did find that a number of cats and dogs were reported missing over this one week galavant.
This almost makes your point, that coexisting with lions is going to be fine. They also noted that not a single person reported a lion roaming the neighborhood. Is this replicatable out East? There are stories of lions killing people, even though the environmentalists deny it. The East has nothing even close to open space that Utah has. maybe its fine but...
One thing is for sure. If a State out East decided they wanted a number of lions, Utah would likely volunteer no problem. Utah has more lions per square mile then any other place in North America. They eat and kill between 30-50 deer a year. Help clean up some White Tail out East.
If they want them...
Boo
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Researchers believe the eastern cougar subspecies has probably been extinct since the 1930s.
This was taken from that article....
Strip
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was just looking at that
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i live in the mountian of NC.... we got Mtn lions and we got bobcats........cougers i havent heard of but panthers i have........
I always thought cougers were native out west not to the east.......well thats what i was taught so this news source might be a bit old rehashin old known data!
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My first question is whether or not their is a difference between this one and the ones found out West. If not, you can easily transplant though that invites other questions, like sanity.
They are the same but consider sub-species.
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Well, the 1930s coincide with massive spike in global temperatures so I think what we're really seeing is clear validation of what Al Gore (praise be to him) has been saying - man made global warming is destroying the planet. This species disappearing from the highly industrialized East coast of the US in the 1930 is undisputable proof of that.
:noid
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My bro in law used to be the Commander of the National Guard base in Utah. Several years back they trapped a lion, tagged it and put a tracking device on it. They then turned it loose and just watched. If you know what Utah looks like they were shocked at where this lion went. It went from Camp Williams, crossed I-15, went through Lehi, American Fork, into Lindon and Orem. Went through allies, backyards, down streets, along canals, etc. It then went onto the base of Mnt Timpanogos and followed the base of that mountain back to Camp Williams. Literally this lion went through backyards, etc. They checked missing animals, no way to prove it but they did find that a number of cats and dogs were reported missing over this one week galavant.
This almost makes your point, that coexisting with lions is going to be fine. They also noted that not a single person reported a lion roaming the neighborhood. Is this replicatable out East? There are stories of lions killing people, even though the environmentalists deny it. The East has nothing even close to open space that Utah has. maybe its fine but...
One thing is for sure. If a State out East decided they wanted a number of lions, Utah would likely volunteer no problem. Utah has more lions per square mile then any other place in North America. They eat and kill between 30-50 deer a year. Help clean up some White Tail out East.
If they want them...
Boo
Years ago (probably 10 or more) on the news I remember footage from some security cams that caught a pair of lions passing through the Delta Center (pretty much right downtown SLC) parking lot in the middle of the night. Yea, they can have huge ranges, and travel fast, but if they find a neighborhood they like they will stick around for a while.
I chuckle at the people who keep building homes higher and higher up the mountainsides here, then complain when deer eat their flowers and lions eat their cats and dogs. If the idiots don't like wildlife then why did they build a house smack dab in the middle of prime wildlife habitat. I for one think people should just stick to building homes in the valleys, and leave the mountains wild. Sadly around here the biggest status symbol is how high your house is on the mountain. :rolleyes:
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Dang it, I like chasing around the more mature hotties.
cougar hunting 101....never tell a cougar your age...she may digress
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My bro in law used to be the Commander of the National Guard base in Utah. Several years back they trapped a lion, tagged it and put a tracking device on it. They then turned it loose and just watched. If you know what Utah looks like they were shocked at where this lion went. It went from Camp Williams, crossed I-15, went through Lehi, American Fork, into Lindon and Orem. Went through allies, backyards, down streets, along canals, etc. It then went onto the base of Mnt Timpanogos and followed the base of that mountain back to Camp Williams. Literally this lion went through backyards, etc. They checked missing animals, no way to prove it but they did find that a number of cats and dogs were reported missing over this one week galavant.
This almost makes your point, that coexisting with lions is going to be fine. They also noted that not a single person reported a lion roaming the neighborhood. Is this replicatable out East? There are stories of lions killing people, even though the environmentalists deny it. The East has nothing even close to open space that Utah has. maybe its fine but...
One thing is for sure. If a State out East decided they wanted a number of lions, Utah would likely volunteer no problem. Utah has more lions per square mile then any other place in North America. They eat and kill between 30-50 deer a year. Help clean up some White Tail out East.
If they want them...
Boo
We don't need cougars around here. We have crackheads and they are dangerous enough...
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If they look harder in southern WVa, there have been many people say they have seen cougars down here.
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We don't need cougars around here. We have crackheads and they are dangerous enough...
Hey Von, Some of those Philly girls are Cougars.... and crackheads.
<S> Oz
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Hey Von, Some of those Philly girls are Cougars.... and crackheads.
<S> Oz
The man speaks truth :aok
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We weren't supposed to have them in Iowa... About 3 years ago pets started disappearing in the town of Carlisle. A local veterinarian set up a motion triggered camera... He got a few pics of a healthy adult cougar. A bit disconcerting, but awesome nonetheless.
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We weren't supposed to have them in Iowa... About 3 years ago pets started disappearing in the town of Carlisle. A local veterinarian set up a motion triggered camera... He got a few pics of a healthy adult cougar. A bit disconcerting, but awesome nonetheless.
That is what Kansas department of wildlife and parks keep tell Kansans. The past fall and land owner caught a few pic of a cougar on his land. Even i saw one in the field. I still believe that there are more of them in the Kansas area.
These animals have the ability to travel a long distance....as far as 1000 miles in a short time. Red Rock, Oklahoma found one that got hit by a train. It was tagged northwest Nebraska area as wildlife officials kept track of it till it diapered.....3 months later it ended up in Oklahoma.
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Yep they are all over the eastern US and I have seen and heard them "screaming" when I was a kid here in Perry County, Alabama. Our neighbor had a farm with lots of pigs and cattle and about once a month either a pig or calf would be found partially eaten out in the area that backed up to our property. My grandfather saw one near there this past fall as they were coming home from church on a bright sunny Sunday afternoon.
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Yep they are all over the eastern US and I have seen and heard them "screaming" when I was a kid here in Perry County, Alabama. Our neighbor had a farm with lots of pigs and cattle and about once a month either a pig or calf would be found partially eaten out in the area that backed up to our property. My grandfather saw one near there this past fall as they were coming home from church on a bright sunny Sunday afternoon.
Was the kill cover up with brush and dirt?
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I took my trip up north last New Years to the family cabin, and was saddened to hear (and of missed out on) there was just a cougar incident I missed out on with a bear dog being taken down in middle of the front driveway of one of the residents that lives in the same river valley we live in (the dog was owned and lost by a non-local bear hunter, who eventualy located it in a bush off to the side of said neighbors driveway). They called the neighboring Sheriff (couple weeks before he retired at the start of this year) who called the FnG warden (who both thought it looked like a cougar kill), who then called up the tracker, one of only a handful of people in the state that are contracted and certified and permitted to track/trap/hunt/kill cougars. This all happened just after the first good snowfall up there this year, so the tracker backtracked the blood from the found dog to dead front and center in the driveway. From there he backtracked and found this cougar has been wandering around the buildings on his place and others of his more imediate neighbors, so it was agreed from this to be a dangerous animal that came down looking for a meal and that didn't just stumble upon one while crossing through the valley. This neighbor of mine has dogs of his own, a teenaged daughter, as well as other animals cougars would love for dinner - was just random luck he had them all stabled or inside and this unfortunate stanger's lost dog came wandering out of the woods at the wrong place and wrong time.
While my neighbor was catching me up on this story he showed me a picture of the tracks in his driveway on his phone. I'm no mountain man or tracker by a good stretch, but I've spent enough time outdoors in my youth to see plenty of cougars, tracks and scat. My imediate reaction was "those are huge! that's not one of our girls, was it?", referring to a couple of lioness sisters that are the well-known local cats for the last ~6-7 years that are occasionaly spotted together crossing the valley or walking down the road on the way to the river or lake, smart enough to know where their place is and not to ever get "too" close to get into any trouble. They're both still relatively young and as lionesses go are of a healthy size and build but are obviously young still.
He replied no, that he hadn't seen the sisters since the first weeks of November, but he thinks he had a good idea why. He then showed me the picture of the killshot with the offending cougar and victorious tracker. It was the largest and darn-healthiest mature grown lion I had ever seen (go figure), weighing in at 328 pounds (with mind you, likely an empty stomach) and a bit larger than the 5'5" tracker. A shame though he was becoming a pest, just a gorgeous creature, it's very rare to get to see such large and well-developed lions and to have to put one down is nothing short of a sad loss to the world, especialy since their expanses of range and territory is many times that of the lionesses. He had tracked it down a few valleys over, on the other side of one of the mountains (and this is no small mountain, see: Bonanza King Mnt.). The lion was shot as it was traveling through a meadow away from a barn it had been snooping around, another distant neighbor of ours up there (retired couple, they have a few chickens, dog and a cat) was unaware until the tracker came walking out of the woods and knocking on their door asking to look around.
Most cougars I find are smart enough to avoid man, at their worst they may be on the edge with taking advantge of the lazy, fat and plump rabbits and deer that frequent our gardens, but they do go awry once in a while.
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Was the kill cover up with brush and dirt?
From what I remember they were covered with stuff from the surrounding vegetation but I don't exactly remember. I got to see one when I was about 15 in person but mostly I only remember what my dad and grand dad would tell me after our neighbor reported it to the Game Wardens and they came out to check it for Cougar sign.
The only one I ever saw was before the newbie game warden showed up and said it was a bobcat that took down a 400lb boar hog. I was about 15 and laughed my butt off at the guy. I was standing there when the guy that owned all the livestock flipped him the bird and walked away. That was the only time I ever saw Mr. Taylor do something like that. My grand dad just chuckled in the way that men who served in WW2 do and walked off with him.
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From what I remember they were covered with stuff from the surrounding vegetation but I don't exactly remember. I got to see one when I was about 15 in person but mostly I only remember what my dad and grand dad would tell me after our neighbor reported it to the Game Wardens and they came out to check it for Cougar sign.
The only one I ever saw was before the newbie game warden showed up and said it was a bobcat that took down a 400lb boar hog. I was about 15 and laughed my butt off at the guy. I was standing there when the guy that owned all the livestock flipped him the bird and walked away. That was the only time I ever saw Mr. Taylor do something like that. My grand dad just chuckled in the way that men who served in WW2 do and walked off with him.
Bobcats can take down a 400 lbs animal but so rare for them to do that. If the kill was cover up that is a possibility, also if the kill was drag off into the brush and half eating. Mountain lions only will eat the meat not the organs.
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Maybe a 400lb calf but a 400lb boar?
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I love it when people that live in big cities read this stuff . Do cougars need to be exterminated ? Hell no . Do they need to be controlled ? Hell yes . People who say otherwise , never go out of the city . You don't need to go out into the wild for them to be a problem . You don't need to go into their territory to be in danger . In Oregon about 15 or so years ago it was made illegal to hunt cougars with dogs or bait . Population at that time around 500 . Population today , estimates range from 5100-6300 . I personally believe it to be in the area of the 5000's . Now all of these cougars require vast amounts of space to live . So they must seek new territories . 500 is a shameful number . 5700 is a dangerous number . If you disagree let your kids go out to a bus stop at the end of your driveway with tracks from a big young Tom all over the place . He has never been hunted . His mother has never been hunted . In all like likely hood his grandmother has never been hunted . He has no fear of us . He leaves trackways that would show even a city boy he is stalking the bus stops . He is an inexperienced hunter , even though he is surrounded by his natural prey . He is instead looking at humans for a snack . Like all predators he knows to get injured is too risk death . So he targets the most vulnerable . My kids , not yours mine . Because of the huge amounts of confrontations between humans and cougars Oregon DFW has come up with a plan to get the number down to 3000 or so . While we don't make the laws for the state . That is done by the population pockets in Portland and Eugene , a tiny portion of the state geographically . It is where the vast majority of the population lives . They will never have face a cougar themselves nor worry when they send jr. to school . They make a huge uproar about any plan to control the animal . It is one thing to admire the beast . On Animal Planet it is one thing . To smell it not be able to see it another . I am not for a return to a population of 500 . I don't like the present plan to control it much either . They will be hunted by professional hunters with dogs . The number is close , but should be raised from 3000 to 3500 or so . Tags should be sold by lottery . Entering should carry a huge price with no refunds if you don't get a tag . The ban on using dogs would have to be lifted . There is no other way to successfully hunt them . What is the difference between paying a professional to do it with dogs . As opposed to letting amateurs do it with dogs . Only one thing . The price . Now alot of people will probably link some pages of attack statistics to us . Remember one thing . Not long ago as the super bowl approached . We would hear all these reports and claims by women's organization about huge increase in domestic violence cases in ER's around the country . I heard it for years . For you younger guys ,the worst thing possible entered the picture . A man or 2 that could do some math . It was proven that the ridiculous numbers were disproved . The countries ER system would have collapsed . It boils down to this the flora nad fauna do not need to be raped . Some elements need control . This is one of them . BTW try to find a list of confrontations in Oregon . One last thought until Dec 2010 the Alabama DFW would have told you had you inquired that their were no Cougars in the state . Only took an attack to show that they may have under estimated just a little .
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true they are designed to kill, but think about it. do we really have the right to kill off a whole species of animal that roamed this earth longer than we have?
i find it the same way with all animals.
if we get killed by them, then its our own fault for wandering into its territory. most of humanity has lost all its respect for nature. and then get a hard dose of reality slapped in there face when nature retaliates.
if you get attacked by the animal, by all means defend yourself. but to go out and hunt the animal to sell its fur and body just for a little $$$? that is unacceptable.
theres ways of keeping cougers out of human zones and humans out of couger territory without bloodshed being needed on ether side.
sadly tho humans get greedy. and over expand. pushing animals to the brink of there habitat. you can only push a wild animal back so many times before it desides to lash out.
Neither the right nor the need . We do how ever have the right and the need to control them .
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Question, what makes you think a population of 500 is to low or 5700 is to high?
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Yeah Oak, I was wondering what experience you had with these. There haven't been very many confirmed sightings here in Kansas, but about half the people you talk to will swear they saw one. Not too long ago here in Lawrence we had a large cat get hit by a car on the outskirts of town. They never got a picture of it and just cleaned it up, which led many people to believe the Lawrence Police is now involved in the conspiracy to cover-up mountain lions in the area. :rolleyes:
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Yeah Oak, I was wondering what experience you had with these. There haven't been very many confirmed sightings here in Kansas, but about half the people you talk to will swear they saw one. Not too long ago here in Lawrence we had a large cat get hit by a car on the outskirts of town. They never got a picture of it and just cleaned it up, which led many people to believe the Lawrence Police is now involved in the conspiracy to cover-up mountain lions in the area. :rolleyes:
Well, i believe that they are in Kansas..but a vary low number. THere was one resent sighting this pass fall that was caught on a motion camera and the only one that ever been document by camera in Kansas that i know of. Other than the resent event, the last well know document was in the 1960s.
You are right about one thing, you talk to half of the farmers and ranchers and claim they seen one on their land. When i was working for the federal and state as a rangeland management specialist, there where countless of times i met a rancher or farmer that said they have one on their land. Some of them show me the tracks. I laugh and told them that they are not cougar tracks, in fact, they not even tracks of any cat spices. They are tracks from the Canis family - dog. But they still claim that they are around.
If you really think about it. Of all the ranchers/farmers/hunters and trigger happy fools in Kansas. I find it interesting not one of them shot at and killed a cougar. Then call the media to show it off. There is not state law that i know of that you can not shot a cougar.
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Well, i believe that they are in Kansas..but a vary low number. THere was one resent sighting this pass fall that was caught on a motion camera and the only one that ever been document by camera in Kansas that i know of. Other than the resent event, the last well know document was in the 1960s.
You are right about one thing, you talk to half of the farmers and ranchers and claim they seen one on their land. When i was working for the federal and state as a rangeland management specialist, there where countless of times i met a rancher or farmer that said they have one on their land. Some of them show me the tracks. I laugh and told them that they are not cougar tracks, in fact, they not even tracks of any cat spices. They are tracks from the Canis family - dog. But they still claim that they are around.
If you really think about it. Of all the ranchers/farmers/hunters and trigger happy fools in Kansas. I find it interesting not one of them shot at and killed a cougar. Then call the media to show it off. There is not state law that i know of that you can not shot a cougar.
i think cougars are on the endangered species list. and thats why they didnt shoot them.or atleast if they did shoot them didnt parade them around the media.
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i think cougars are on the endangered species list. and thats why they didnt shoot them.or atleast if they did shoot them didnt parade them around the media.
1. I don't think these farmers are too concerned about the endangered species list.
2. They'll tell people, farmers talk like women at a hair salon.
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i think cougars are on the endangered species list. and thats why they didnt shoot them.or atleast if they did shoot them didnt parade them around the media.
Here are two facts about the T&E Act.
1) 80% of American supports it
2) Not in my back yard
Having to say that, most people do not know what species are on the list. As for the ranchers and farmers in Kansas, the only species they do know that is on the list is the Greater and Lessor Prairie Chicken.
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"they (cougars)are designed to kill"
This is a wrong statement.
They do their job to survival.
Man is the only animal, among the earth's creatures, who kills for nothing.
We are the problem, cougers the solutions.
Now, in a part of the world, a free spirit is missing and the
human soul is much poor and alone from the paradise.
What remains is a bunch of with unfair man and woman
dancing as a mad around their stupid rifles idols.
:salute
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"they (cougars)are designed to kill"
This is a wrong statement.
They do their job to survival.
Man is the only animal, among the earth's creatures, who kills for nothing.
We are the problem, cougers the solutions.
Now, in a part of the world, a free spirit is missing and the
human soul is much poor and alone from the paradise.
What remains is a bunch of with unfair man and woman
dancing as a mad around their stupid rifles idols.
:salute
We have cougars here. They are beautiful animals for sure. One of the things that makes them so beautiful to us is the deadly grace they exhibit. Don't kid yourself though, they are not cute little kitty cats, they are top of the tier predators who can be very dangerous if encountered under the wrong circumstance. I saw one once heading down to Oak Bottom Campground one morning like he/she had not a care in the world. One was shot a few years back after it had been lurking outside the French Gulch school's playground, and just last year one was reported within the Anderson city limits, as well as on the Sacramento River Trail in Redding.
We may be the problem :rolleyes: but if you live with them you better be aware that they view you as nothing more than prey. Around here they have no natural predators so they seem to do well. So well in fact, that they are starting to move out of the wild life areas and into populated areas. There have been several cougar attacks on humans just in California that I'm aware of in the last decade and not out in the woods like you would expect but in suburban areas. Normally around bike/walking paths.
Another fun fact, cougars like a lot of big cats like to attack from ambush, and will wait for you to pass so that they can attack you from behind. They will try to grab your neck or head after they have pounced onto your back knocking you to the ground if you don't have a dedicated friend or good samaritan willing to help you out you're probably cat food.
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Man is the only animal, among the earth's creatures, who kills for nothing.
Total BS. Do you know anyone that owns a house cat? Those vile vermin of Satan joyfully tear apart all manner of defenseless creatures and leave their remains on your new carpeting.
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This was taken from that article....
Researchers believe the eastern cougar subspecies has probably been extinct since the 1930s.
Never let facts get in the way of a good argument (or whine). :old:
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Total BS. Do you know anyone that owns a house cat? Those vile vermin of Satan joyfully tear apart all manner of defenseless creatures and leave their remains on your new carpeting.
Thank you Snuggie. I laughed out loud when I read his wandering babble. Another person with apparently no experience with most any animal what-so-ever, save for maybe a poodle or chihuahua. :lol
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My bro in law used to be the Commander of the National Guard base in Utah. Several years back they trapped a lion, tagged it and put a tracking device on it. They then turned it loose and just watched. If you know what Utah looks like they were shocked at where this lion went. It went from Camp Williams, crossed I-15, went through Lehi, American Fork, into Lindon and Orem. Went through allies, backyards, down streets, along canals, etc. It then went onto the base of Mnt Timpanogos and followed the base of that mountain back to Camp Williams. Literally this lion went through backyards, etc. They checked missing animals, no way to prove it but they did find that a number of cats and dogs were reported missing over this one week galavant.
This almost makes your point, that coexisting with lions is going to be fine. They also noted that not a single person reported a lion roaming the neighborhood. Is this replicatable out East? There are stories of lions killing people, even though the environmentalists deny it. The East has nothing even close to open space that Utah has. maybe its fine but...
One thing is for sure. If a State out East decided they wanted a number of lions, Utah would likely volunteer no problem. Utah has more lions per square mile then any other place in North America. They eat and kill between 30-50 deer a year. Help clean up some White Tail out East.
If they want them...
Boo
Yep around here white tails have become somewhat problematic there are so many of them. Last week in a two mile stretch I counted no less then 6 roadkilled dear along side the road. Lion and wolf populations would be beneficial around here. But the same peta types that protest the deer and bear hunts every year are often the same ones that complain when they movie to the rural areas and see the bear going through their trashcans
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We have cougars here. They are beautiful animals for sure. One of the things that makes them so beautiful to us is the deadly grace they exhibit. Don't kid yourself though, they are not cute little kitty cats, they are top of the tier predators who can be very dangerous if encountered under the wrong circumstance. I saw one once heading down to Oak Bottom Campground one morning like he/she had not a care in the world. One was shot a few years back after it had been lurking outside the French Gulch school's playground, and just last year one was reported within the Anderson city limits, as well as on the Sacramento River Trail in Redding.
We may be the problem :rolleyes: but if you live with them you better be aware that they view you as nothing more than prey. Around here they have no natural predators so they seem to do well. So well in fact, that they are starting to move out of the wild life areas and into populated areas. There have been several cougar attacks on humans just in California that I'm aware of in the last decade and not out in the woods like you would expect but in suburban areas. Normally around bike/walking paths.
Another fun fact, cougars like a lot of big cats like to attack from ambush, and will wait for you to pass so that they can attack you from behind. They will try to grab your neck or head after they have pounced onto your back knocking you to the ground if you don't have a dedicated friend or good samaritan willing to help you out you're probably cat food.
Hmmm. sounds alot like the indigenous human population here in Camden and Newark.
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true they are designed to kill, but think about it. do we really have the right to kill off a whole species of animal that roamed this earth longer than we have?
i find it the same way with all animals.
if we get killed by them, then its our own fault for wandering into its territory. most of humanity has lost all its respect for nature. and then get a hard dose of reality slapped in there face when nature retaliates.
if you get attacked by the animal, by all means defend yourself. but to go out and hunt the animal to sell its fur and body just for a little $$$? that is unacceptable.
theres ways of keeping cougers out of human zones and humans out of couger territory without bloodshed being needed on ether side.
sadly tho humans get greedy. and over expand. pushing animals to the brink of there habitat. you can only push a wild animal back so many times before it desides to lash out.
Of all the things you have posted, this has to be the least sensible yet. I suppose that you wouldn't mind not living
or vacationing by nature because an animal lives there? Of course you have to retroactively move people out
because they think the eastern cougar has been extinct since the 30s.
I suppose we'd have to live on places like Iwo Jima because anywhere else is bound to have some sort of wildlife
on or in it. Or is it only animals you find attractive that apply?
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The eastern cougar may be extinct but we've had plenty of sightings the past few years. They are trying to determine if these cats are true eastern cats or have they move this way or if in fact they are released pets that grew to be too much trouble to keep.
All of the eastern coast of N.A. had or has populations of cougars,pumas,mountain lions,whatever name you want to use,what we never had before were coyotes and their numbers are growing to dangerous levels. They're taking small pets out of yards and last summer one even took a poodle/fluffymutt right off the leash of it's owner! Yes they've become that bold.
The cougars arent as bold yet and are rarely seen,beside there's so many deer around it's easy pickings for them.
:salute
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Nooo!!!! I love cougars!
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Total BS. Do you know anyone that owns a house cat? Those vile vermin of Satan joyfully tear apart all manner of defenseless creatures and leave their remains on your new carpeting.
I didn't know humans eat the humans they kill.
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Of all the things you have posted, this has to be the least sensible yet. I suppose that you wouldn't mind not living
or vacationing by nature because an animal lives there? Of course you have to retroactively move people out
because they think the eastern cougar has been extinct since the 30s.
I suppose we'd have to live on places like Iwo Jima because anywhere else is bound to have some sort of wildlife
on or in it. Or is it only animals you find attractive that apply?
how is this the least sensible? theres places you can go in nature without treading into an angry predators territory.
but hey, the way you talk. lets just kill all the animals off right? they lash out at humans when humans push them too far out of there natural habitat, but hey! the animals must be the common enemy! not humans! kill them all! because im a human and i want to go wherever i want on this planet and not have to worry about respecting nature!
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The eastern cougar may be extinct but we've had plenty of sightings the past few years. They are trying to determine if these cats are true eastern cats or have they move this way or if in fact they are released pets that grew to be too much trouble to keep.
All of the eastern coast of N.A. had or has populations of cougars,pumas,mountain lions,whatever name you want to use,what we never had before were coyotes and their numbers are growing to dangerous levels. They're taking small pets out of yards and last summer one even took a poodle/fluffymutt right off the leash of it's owner! Yes they've become that bold.
The cougars arent as bold yet and are rarely seen,beside there's so many deer around it's easy pickings for them.
:salute
Morf coyotes are becoming a real problem in many areas. They are smart, bold, and work as a unit. Amazingly they are thriving in urban areas where garbage, rodents, and the occasional domestic pet makes for good living. The ones I've seen around here look well fed. When I see them they are moving out of a subdivision heading back out into a wooded area early in the morning. I almost never see them in the evening, but I sure do hear them after the sun goes down.
I didn't know humans eat the humans they kill.
Some have been known to. Dahmer comes to mind.
Thank you Snuggie. I laughed out loud when I read his wandering babble. Another person with apparently no experience with most any animal what-so-ever, save for maybe a poodle or chihuahua. :lol
Dolphins have been documented killing for sport, as well as Orca.
If a new male lion takes over the pride he kills all the offspring from the previous male. I guess technically not for sport but that's just splitting hairs. So your argument that man is the only animal that does it doesn't really hold water.
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i live in the mountian of NC.... we got Mtn lions and we got bobcats........cougers i havent heard of but panthers i have........
cougar/moutain lion/panther= same
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Dinosaurs are extinct, and we had nothing to do with it.
Consideing the context of this thread, this comment truely deserves the most retarded comment award by far.
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I didn't know humans eat the humans they kill.
My sister-in-laws loathsome cats don't eat what they kill. They torture it slowly and then rip it to pieces.
Cats are the Devil's handmaidens. They are evil to the freakin' core. Like furry snakes that smell really, really bad.
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Dinosaurs are extinct, and we had nothing to do with it.
:headscratch:
(http://wattahack.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/moron.gif)
(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/638-moron.jpg)
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My sister-in-laws loathsome cats don't eat what they kill. They torture it slowly and then rip it to pieces.
Cats are the Devil's handmaidens. They are evil to the freakin' core. Like furry snakes that smell really, really bad.
The human influence on domestics cats.
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The human influence on domestics cats.
Hello, my name is Richard, and I am a small animal mutilator. I have this problem where I lust for the thrill of catching mice, lizards, and frogs in my yard, then tormenting and torturing them while I force my otherwise unwilling housecats cats to watch. Initially it was a real struggle to make the cats pay attention and absorb the horror of what I was doing, it was just not in their nature. After many hours, however, they came to appreciate the special kind of cruelty that only humans can inflict on other creatures, and they adopted the practice of catching and shredding small creatures for fun and sport as their own. My evil plan was complete, I had indoctrinated my housecats with a human form of evil. I confess all my sins now.
:rofl
Seriously Milo, do you actually believe something so stupid as what you just typed? I'm hoping you were being facetious. Otherwise, if you weren't, I do feel compelled to inform you that you are quite a good ways behind Tyrannis in the "How much stupid stuff can I say" contest....but keep it up. You may still have a chance of catching up with him.
:aok
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Dinosaurs are extinct, and we had nothing to do with it.
I was a bit harsh earlier, sorry.
It's just that the current man-made mass excintion that's underway has nothing to do with dinosaurs and their extinction.
I just tend to blow a head gasket they are compared in an attempt to down play what's currently happening.
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Hello, my name is Richard, and I am a small animal mutilator. I have this problem where I lust for the thrill of catching mice, lizards, and frogs in my yard, then tormenting and torturing them while I force my otherwise unwilling housecats cats to watch. Initially it was a real struggle to make the cats pay attention and absorb the horror of what I was doing, it was just not in their nature. After many hours, however, they came to appreciate the special kind of cruelty that only humans can inflict on other creatures, and they adopted the practice of catching and shredding small creatures for fun and sport as their own. My evil plan was complete, I had indoctrinated my housecats with a human form of evil. I confess all my sins now.
:rofl
Seriously Milo, do you actually believe something so stupid as what you just typed? I'm hoping you were being facetious. Otherwise, if you weren't, I do feel compelled to inform you that you are quite a good ways behind Tyrannis in the "How much stupid stuff can I say" contest....but keep it up. You may still have a chance of catching up with him.
:aok
if what i say is so stupid, why do you feel like you gotta add you $0.02 to what i say?
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if what i say is so stupid, why do you feel like you gotta add you $0.02 to what i say?
Actually, I was responding to Milo, not you, I just informed him that if he continued to say stupid things he'd be in the same league as you. Kind of a warning, I guess, maybe a bit of advice for him.
Get it right.
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Actually, I was responding to Milo, not you, I just informed him that if he continued to say stupid things he'd be in the same league as you. Kind of a warning, I guess, maybe a bit of advice for him.
Get it right.
:rofl reaper your far from the right person to be pointing fingers and calling people stupid.
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:rofl reaper your far from the right person to be pointing fingers and calling people stupid.
(http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
M'kay kid. I'll leave that to you, you're the authority on the subject.
I've forgotten more than you'll likely know. Difference is I don't come to the BBS and spout off about it. Maybe when you're old enough to drive after dark you'll have something better to do than make yourself look silly here. :rofl
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:rofl reaper your far from the right person to be pointing fingers and calling people stupid.
+1 :aok :aok :aok
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+1 :aok :aok :aok
:rofl :rofl :rofl
LOL, Mister "Humans make housecats evil." You're in good company with Tyrannis. :rofl
Seriously, you can click on my name and have the option to view any and all posts I have ever made on this BBS. Find me ONE single post even remotely as stupid or dim-witted as what either of you have posted in just the last 24 hours and you will have really accomplished something. :rofl
Look, I gave you the benefit of the doubt by saying "I hope you were being facetious." i.e. Surely you're just being sarcastic or comical, and seriously don't believe what you typed to be true. Judging by your past posts you've not suffered some sort of brain injury, so I assume you were just kidding. Otherwise..... :uhoh
If you do actually think humans have made domesticated cats the way they are and that humans are the only animals that kill for reasons other than food or survival, well......I can't help you. You two rocket surgeons go entertain yourselves. I've lost several IQ points just talking to you! :lol
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(http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
M'kay kid. I'll leave that to you, you're the authority on the subject.
I've forgotten more than you'll likely know. Difference is I don't come to the BBS and spout off about it. Maybe when you're old enough to drive after dark you'll have something better to do than make yourself look silly here. :rofl
are you not spouting off right now?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
LOL, Mister "Humans make housecats evil." You're in good company with Tyrannis. :rofl
Seriously, you can click on my name and have the option to view any and all posts I have ever made on this BBS. Find me ONE single post even remotely as stupid or dim-witted as what either of you have posted in just the last 24 hours and you will have really accomplished something. :rofl
You two rocket surgeons go entertain yourselves. I've lost several IQ points just talking to you! :lol
<--- doors that way. im afraid this thread isent big enough to hold your bigotry reaper.
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are you not spouting off right now?
Nope, I was talking to Milo. Your decision to open your "yap hole" to me a couple of days ago caused you to be referenced. That is all.
<--- doors that way. im afraid this thread isent big enough to hold your bigotry reaper.
No, I think I'll stay, kid. And "bigotry?" Biggotry of what, or is your vocabulary failing you? Am I biggoted against kids who make stupic comments and claims on the BBS that are complete nonsense? Yeh I guess I am. Guilty as charged.
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i live in the mountian of NC.... we got Mtn lions and we got bobcats........cougers i havent heard of but panthers i have........
I always thought cougers were native out west not to the east.......well thats what i was taught so this news source might be a bit old rehashin old known data!
When I moved to Florida in '76, alligators were an endangered species....when I moved away in '95, you could get gator-tail nuggets at the drive-thru
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When I moved to Florida in '76, alligators were an endangered species....when I moved away in '95, you could get gator-tail nuggets at the drive-thru
Let's compare oranges to apples, why don't we?
Much easier for an animal that reproduces at a rate roughly 60 times faster than the mountain lion to come back from the brink.
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Your sense of humor is most teeny; I just find the idea of gator-tail nuggets pretty frikkin funny
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Let's compare oranges to apples, why don't we?
Much easier for an animal that reproduces at a rate roughly 60 times faster than the mountain lion to come back from the brink.
True, but gators are limited to a small part of the country where mountain lions are nation-wide, event up into Canada. Also, lets look at terriorty per individual. Gators are are not protective of their territory while Mountain lions are.
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That, and Cougar paws aren't crispy and tasty
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Your sense of humor is most teeny; I just find the idea of gator-tail nuggets pretty frikkin funny
:aok I eat gator a couple times a month.
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True, but gators are limited to a small part of the country where mountain lions are nation-wide, event up into Canada. Also, lets look at terriorty per individual. Gators are are not protective of their territory while Mountain lions are.
Don't go near a gator's egg nest.
Cougar, puma, mountain lion, mountain cat, catamount, panther range as far south as southern Chile.
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if you get attacked by the animal, by all means defend yourself. but to go out and hunt the animal to sell its fur and body just for a little $$$? that is unacceptable.
I don't understand this part.
Basically, there are three requirements to life. Food, water, shelter. You cannot live without all three; all three are vital.
Most people (hunters included) argue that it's only acceptable to kill if you plan to eat it. But... Fur has been (and still is) used for clothing, which is simply portable shelter. That makes fur harvest as "acceptable" as food harvest. There's still a large demand for fur world-wide, and (contrary to popular belief) it isn't just for fashion.
If I trap and sell the fur, how is that any less acceptable than killing an animal and selling the meat? Is buying meat acceptable, if it puts money in someones hands? What about fur? What about vegetables, if wildlife habitat was destroyed to make room for the farm? What about a book, if its creation was enabled by habitat destruction resulting in loss of animal life (during the harvest of the wood, its transport to the mill, the building of the printing facility, the creation of the ink, etc, etc, etc...) Is it acceptable to buy a computer? Is it acceptable to use a computer? It all results in animal death, and those animals aren't being eaten.
Reality check- If you're alive, you're encroaching on wildlife.
Mountain lions aren't threatened nearly as much by hunting as they are by habitat encroachment. Just by existing you're part of the "problem". The farm that supplies your food, the road that allows the food to be delivered to your neighborhood, the habitat destruction that occurs to fuel your energy needs all encroach on wildlife.
How does the puma protect itself from you?
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Now mtnman, don't you go and throw logic and thought into an argument filled with illogical emotional bleating.
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Since this lovely thread has gone down the toilet....a bit of levity.
(http://www.entertainmentworlds.com/Jackmorans.jpg)
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I don't understand this part.
Basically, there are three requirements to life. Food, water, shelter. You cannot live without all three; all three are vital.
Most people (hunters included) argue that it's only acceptable to kill if you plan to eat it. But... Fur has been (and still is) used for clothing, which is simply portable shelter. That makes fur harvest as "acceptable" as food harvest. There's still a large demand for fur world-wide, and (contrary to popular belief) it isn't just for fashion.
If I trap and sell the fur, how is that any less acceptable than killing an animal and selling the meat? Is buying meat acceptable, if it puts money in someones hands? What about fur? What about vegetables, if wildlife habitat was destroyed to make room for the farm? What about a book, if its creation was enabled by habitat destruction resulting in loss of animal life (during the harvest of the wood, its transport to the mill, the building of the printing facility, the creation of the ink, etc, etc, etc...) Is it acceptable to buy a computer? Is it acceptable to use a computer? It all results in animal death, and those animals aren't being eaten.
Reality check- If you're alive, you're encroaching on wildlife.
Mountain lions aren't threatened nearly as much by hunting as they are by habitat encroachment. Just by existing you're part of the "problem". The farm that supplies your food, the road that allows the food to be delivered to your neighborhood, the habitat destruction that occurs to fuel your energy needs all encroach on wildlife.
How does the puma protect itself from you?
i see your point, but just because someone offers $$$ for the furs&bodies of the animal, does that make it allright to hunt it to extinction over?
especially an animal that was allready on the endangered species list to begin with?
over in iran, a man put out an add saying he will pay $$$ for body parts of killed americans.
that man is offering $$$, so does that make it ok to hunt americans and sell there body parts?
i have nothing against hunting in its true form:for survival. when you hunt to eat the meat. but when your in a part of the world that is allmost overrun with deers, do you really need to hunt an endangered animal for its meat?
and most of these cougers probally werent even killed because of that. they were most likely killed out of ignorance. people look at a big predator like that, and they immediatly think "kill it!". its like how most people react to snakes. if you see a snake in your field, 8/10 people would try to kill it instead of just letting the snake go along its way. if the cougers attacking your livestock, then theres diff ways of removing the problem without actually killing it. you could of had it captured, and relocated.
and yes i fully understand humanity is the problem, thats why ive been saying we have lost our respect for nature. we kill animals off without even shedding a tear when there gone. we demolish the rain forrest for trees to make paper out of, and by doing that were pushing very rare animals out of there homes.
and in the cougers case, america was its territory before humans ever arrived. i feel we had no right to kill it off.we tend to forget that most animals have been around longer than we have when we're destroying there homes.
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i see your point, but just because someone offers $$$ for the furs&bodies of the animal, does that make it allright to hunt it to extinction over?
especially an animal that was allready on the endangered species list to begin with?
Which animal was hunted to extinction?
Can you name an animal that was hunted to extinction while it was on the endangered list?
i have nothing against hunting in its true form:for survival. when you hunt to eat the meat. but when your in a part of the world that is allmost overrun with deers, do you really need to hunt an endangered animal for its meat?
and most of these cougers probally werent even killed because of that. they were most likely killed out of ignorance. people look at a big predator like that, and they immediatly think "kill it!". its like how most people react to snakes. if you see a snake in your field, 8/10 people would try to kill it instead of just letting the snake go along its way. if the cougers attacking your livestock, then theres diff ways of removing the problem without actually killing it. you could of had it captured, and relocated.
You're right (although your logic is twisted) when you say "most of these cougers probally werent even killed because of that", but I bet you don't know why. You're right, because most of the cougars that died weren't hunted. They (a few, anyway) may have been shot, poisoned, or trapped, certainly, but they weren't hunted. In reality, the majority likely died due to habitat encroachment. They died because another species moved in and utilized the environment for it's own needs (which is exactly what the cougar was doing up until that point).
Hunting is a regulated activity. Part of that regulation is not allowing endangered species to be hunted. If an endangered species is killed, it isn't hunting. It's a violation of federal law (here in the US).
And killing cougars is not like killing snakes. My wife would probably kill a snake, but she wouldn't kill a cougar. 8 out of 10 folks would not kill a cougar. 99.9 out of 100 would never even see it.
Moving an animal isn't always a good option (and it's ofetn a bad option). It really comes down to why it was there in the first place. Viable, healthy cougars generally don't come close enough to people to kill their livestock, unless they have no other option. Of course, habitat encroachment may take away their other options... Moving an animal is seldom as easy and effective as most city-folk believe.
and yes i fully understand humanity is the problem, thats why ive been saying we have lost our respect for nature. we kill animals off without even shedding a tear when there gone. we demolish the rain forrest for trees to make paper out of, and by doing that were pushing very rare animals out of there homes.
You're also doing it by buying pre-packaged food, going to school, heating your house, doing your laundry, and watching TV. No need to get all elaborate and bring up the rain forests. The rain forest argument is just an attempt to shift the blame to someone else. If you exist (and I believe that you do), you're responsible for the death of animals (the overwhelmingly vast majority of which you are not eating, or seeing, or hearing, or thinking about).
and in the cougers case, america was its territory before humans ever arrived. i feel we had no right to kill it off.we tend to forget that most animals have been around longer than we have when we're destroying there homes.
The "before humans" argument can be used for any animal, really. But then again, what does it matter? Are we part of the ecosystem? Or not?
If not, humans are an invasive species. And, our human response to that is to attempt to eradicate the invasive species (unless we like them or can profit from them; pheasants are an example). Should we eradicate ourselves? Or at least limit ourselves to a small portion of Africa (where we came from)? That would probably mean putting our population at a "controlled" level as well. Anyone want to volunteer to be "culled" for the good of the earth?
If we are part of the ecosystem, then maybe we should just leave ourselves alone, and let happen what will happen? If we're part of the ecosystem (part of nature) then our activities are "natural", and no more evil than a robin eating a worm, or a flower growing. To not leave ourselves alone would be unnatural.
Beaver (an animal I've trapped many of, sold many hides of, and eaten just a few of) are a very destructive animal. They take a "nice" place, and destroy it by altering water flow, and clearing trees and saplings. They dig ugly canals and tunnels to make their work easier and safer for themselves. The slow the flow of water, and make it impossible for the native fish (trout) to spawn. In the end, the beaver eat themselves out of house and home (they eat the bark of the trees they cut down, no trees equals no beaver food). At that point, they either die or move to another location to begin the process again. The original "pristine" habitat will take decades to repair itself. The pond will fill in gradually, leaving a marsh, and then a meadow. The stream may eventually carve it's way back through.
In the meantime, all sorts of other critters will use the "artificial" habitat left by the beaver activities. What looked like horrific damage to some organisms, is cherished by others. Deer (and cougars which eat the deer) will find the meadow to be a good thing.
Maybe people are like beaver? Who knows what will happen after we destroy the original habitat. Do we have a "right" to survive and prosper?
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That is what Kansas department of wildlife and parks keep tell Kansans. The past fall and land owner caught a few pic of a cougar on his land. Even i saw one in the field. I still believe that there are more of them in the Kansas area.
These animals have the ability to travel a long distance....as far as 1000 miles in a short time. Red Rock, Oklahoma found one that got hit by a train. It was tagged northwest Nebraska area as wildlife officials kept track of it till it diapered.....3 months later it ended up in Oklahoma.
The ones we occasionally have here in the midwest I believe are the western variety, which if I remember correctly may be too similar (or even identical to) the eastern variety to realistically declare the eastern variety extinct.
The western variety is obviously alive and kicking. The closest population to me is in northern Michigan, but every year a few toms will move through this neck of the woods, and even head down near Illinois. They're generally considered to be dispersing, looking for a female. Not finding any they likely move back north.
There's actually a lot of speculation over puma subspecies. We like to divide them here in NA into a Florida variety, California variety, and eastern and western varieties, but some consider them to actually just be seperate populations of the same animal.
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There's actually a lot of speculation over puma subspecies. We like to divide them here in NA into a Florida variety, California variety, and eastern and western varieties, but some consider them to actually just be seperate populations of the same animal.
I believe they are divide into sub-spices by their DNA.
i see your point, but just because someone offers $$$ for the furs&bodies of the animal, does that make it allright to hunt it to extinction over?
especially an animal that was allready on the endangered species list to begin with?
over in iran, a man put out an add saying he will pay $$$ for body parts of killed americans.
that man is offering $$$, so does that make it ok to hunt americans and sell there body parts?
i have nothing against hunting in its true form:for survival. when you hunt to eat the meat. but when your in a part of the world that is allmost overrun with deers, do you really need to hunt an endangered animal for its meat?
and most of these cougers probally werent even killed because of that. they were most likely killed out of ignorance. people look at a big predator like that, and they immediatly think "kill it!". its like how most people react to snakes. if you see a snake in your field, 8/10 people would try to kill it instead of just letting the snake go along its way. if the cougers attacking your livestock, then theres diff ways of removing the problem without actually killing it. you could of had it captured, and relocated.
and yes i fully understand humanity is the problem, thats why ive been saying we have lost our respect for nature. we kill animals off without even shedding a tear when there gone. we demolish the rain forrest for trees to make paper out of, and by doing that were pushing very rare animals out of there homes.
and in the cougers case, america was its territory before humans ever arrived. i feel we had no right to kill it off.we tend to forget that most animals have been around longer than we have when we're destroying there homes.
You have to understand that most people (Americans) do not understand about wildlife biology. They understand how to tweet and blog. However, they have no clue how displacing one specie of wildlife can disrupted the whole ecosystem.
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I believe they are divide into sub-spices by their DNA.
Interestingly, that's why there's been the discussions on NA puma subspecies (or lack of). Before they looked into the DNA, they had the mountain lion broken down into many, may subspecies (30 or more, I believe).
Following the DNA research, they've basically settled on 6, 5 of which aren't even indigenous to NA (they are only found in SA).
That means that based on DNA, the eastern subspecies never existed, so is therefore not extinct. It wasn't a subspecies, it was just an eastern population.
No sense in jumping to conclusions though, it would kind of make this entire thread pointless... Let's just keep it under our hats, and let people vent.
The puma used to be recognized as belonging to the genus Felinae (Felis concolor), but is now recognized as belonging to Puma (Puma concolor). That's another outcome from DNA analysis. Let's talk about that one instead.
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Interesting stuff Mtnman!
So are you say the Florida Puma is a subspecies{Puma concolor}or are you talking about the SA Puma?
Up here in southern Ontario there's been many sightings,scat and tracks found,of a type of Cougar. Whether these are "Eastern" Cougars or not has yet to be determined but if what you say is true then they'll never be able to tell.
Most biologist suspect these cats are released pets that have grown to be too much work to keep! However they've stopped the spring bear hunt here and now the bear population has grown considerably,to the point that bears are becoming a nuisance and this may have driven a once illusive cat into the open.
:salute
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Interestingly, that's why there's been the discussions on NA puma subspecies (or lack of). Before they looked into the DNA, they had the mountain lion broken down into many, may subspecies (30 or more, I believe).
Following the DNA research, they've basically settled on 6, 5 of which aren't even indigenous to NA (they are only found in SA).
That means that based on DNA, the eastern subspecies never existed, so is therefore not extinct. It wasn't a subspecies, it was just an eastern population.
No sense in jumping to conclusions though, it would kind of make this entire thread pointless... Let's just keep it under our hats, and let people vent.
The puma used to be recognized as belonging to the genus Felinae (Felis concolor), but is now recognized as belonging to Puma (Puma concolor). That's another outcome from DNA analysis. Let's talk about that one instead.
Hmmmm. One publication stated this analysis (Culver et al (2000)),which went right into Mammal Species of the World), that there are 6 distinct subspecies. While this may be true... the distinction between a sub-species and a non-interbreeding sub population of the same species is very razor thin. Gene flow is certainly highly highly restrictive between members.
While I would not ascribe to the somewhat obscure "32 sub-species" of the late 80's, there is sufficient restriction among alleles to warrant more than 6. I find Culver's clumping of the North American cats to be a little simplistic. His loci may have contributed to a certain degree of bias in his results, as well.
But in any case, it's truly splitting hairs. Sub-species, or non interbreeding sub-population.... they're all gone.
Link to the Culver et al paper http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/3/186.full.pdf (http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/3/186.full.pdf)
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Hmmmm. One publication stated this analysis (Culver et al (2000)),which went right into Mammal Species of the World), that there are 6 distinct subspecies. While this may be true... the distinction between a sub-species and a non-interbreeding sub population of the same species is very razor thin. Gene flow is certainly highly highly restrictive between members.
While I would not ascribe to the somewhat obscure "32 sub-species" of the late 80's, there is sufficient restriction among alleles to warrant more than 6. I find Culver's clumping of the North American cats to be a little simplistic. His loci may have contributed to a certain degree of bias in his results, as well.
But in any case, it's truly splitting hairs. Sub-species, or non interbreeding sub-population.... they're all gone.
Link to the Culver et al paper http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/3/186.full.pdf (http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/3/186.full.pdf)
We're learning about alleles in Biology!
/hijack
-Penguin
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What is interesting about the argument of subspecies cougars is that there is a similar argument about Red wolf and Kit Fox. Biologist debate on whether if Red wolf (Canis rufus) is a subspecies to the Eastern Gray wolf or a cross breed between coyotes and Gray wolf.
As for the Kit Fox (Vulpes macrotis), it is greatly debated whether if it is a subspecies with the Swift Fox (Vulpes velox). Both look so similar that it is hard to tell the difference. Some biologist will argue that they are sub-species do to their geo-biological area. While the other side believe they are the same species just a slight difference in color and body size.
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I don't understand this part.
Basically, there are three requirements to life. Food, water, shelter. You cannot live without all three; all three are vital.
Most people (hunters included) argue that it's only acceptable to kill if you plan to eat it. But... Fur has been (and still is) used for clothing, which is simply portable shelter. That makes fur harvest as "acceptable" as food harvest. There's still a large demand for fur world-wide, and (contrary to popular belief) it isn't just for fashion.
If I trap and sell the fur, how is that any less acceptable than killing an animal and selling the meat? Is buying meat acceptable, if it puts money in someones hands? What about fur? What about vegetables, if wildlife habitat was destroyed to make room for the farm? What about a book, if its creation was enabled by habitat destruction resulting in loss of animal life (during the harvest of the wood, its transport to the mill, the building of the printing facility, the creation of the ink, etc, etc, etc...) Is it acceptable to buy a computer? Is it acceptable to use a computer? It all results in animal death, and those animals aren't being eaten.
Reality check- If you're alive, you're encroaching on wildlife.
Mountain lions aren't threatened nearly as much by hunting as they are by habitat encroachment. Just by existing you're part of the "problem". The farm that supplies your food, the road that allows the food to be delivered to your neighborhood, the habitat destruction that occurs to fuel your energy needs all encroach on wildlife.
How does the puma protect itself from you?
Thrown in the leather too bro . LOL . Love a well reasoned statement .
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Question, what makes you think a population of 500 is to low or 5700 is to high?
The available habitat .
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1. I don't think these farmers are too concerned about the endangered species list.
2. They'll tell people, farmers talk like women at a hair salon.
Take a look at game laws . Fines etc. you may see why it is not paraded . I don't know state law anywhere but here . You must prove that life or livestock was endangered here . Not pets , livestock or human life . A bureaucrat will be the one that determines that life was endangered not a biologist or a warden .