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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 68ZooM on March 17, 2011, 01:31:35 PM

Title: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: 68ZooM on March 17, 2011, 01:31:35 PM
Old squadmate sent me this, i thought i would share its something i never knew, Lewis and Clark's air rifle,  Made in 1790 by Girandoni it holds 22- 46cal ball ammo, he says it could shoot 40 shots before starting to lose Muzzle velocity, 22 shots in 30 seconds, I've never heard of this Rifle in any history class i took while in school but its in his diary on the first page  :headscratch:  interesting 8 Min's video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 17, 2011, 01:43:32 PM
 :O  now that is seriously cool...800psi in an antique rifle with at least 100 yards range?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: 68ZooM on March 17, 2011, 01:51:03 PM
i just never knew they had an Air Rifle back then, thank heavens they wasn't used during the civil war
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Blackwulf on March 17, 2011, 02:25:11 PM
Cool video, I am always glad to learn something new.
I wonder though, if this was around so early on, why there wasn't further development of these types of rifles?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Tac on March 17, 2011, 03:08:13 PM
Considering that the avg line of foot soldier could barely fire 3 rounds a minute with a musket... wow.. wonder why they didn't adopt this rifle all over. It can easily pump 10+ rounds a minute.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 17, 2011, 03:12:02 PM
i'm guessing range was a big factor...100 yards accurately with air vs 200+ accurately with powder...

and pumping it back up in combat would not be a good thing to get caught doing when the enemy does a bayonet charge...

Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: AWwrgwy on March 17, 2011, 03:14:43 PM
i'm guessing range was a big factor...100 yards accurately with air vs 200+ accurately with powder...

and pumping it back up in combat would not be a good thing to get caught doing when the enemy does a bayonet charge...



800psi.

How long does it take to pump up your 35psi car tire with a bicycle pump?


wrongway
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 17, 2011, 03:33:23 PM
800psi.

How long does it take to pump up your 35psi car tire with a bicycle pump?

wrongway
i've never actually been successful in doing it... :lol

i could have sworn the guy in the video said 1800 pumps to fill that rifle...  :O
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Tac on March 17, 2011, 04:06:32 PM
i'm guessing range was a big factor...100 yards accurately with air vs 200+ accurately with powder...

and pumping it back up in combat would not be a good thing to get caught doing when the enemy does a bayonet charge...



muskets were horribly inaccurate down to 100 yards anyways. The black smoke blocked the view after the first volley so aiming was out of the question..not to mention recoil.

The musket also needs to be propped up to reload..and there is no reason the air rifle could not be fitted with a bayonet (heck it needs no loading from the end of the barrel so it'd be even better to fix a bayonet on it).


The guy said the rifle would fire about 45 rounds before starting to lose PSI. It took 1500 pumps to get its pressure to full. Armies of the day would line up to fight each other...plenty of time in the night or morning to pump up your gun. Even then, most musket troops barely fired 10 to 20 rounds before either being dead or in bayonet combat.

The key thing is rate of fire. A line of foot firing 10 rounds a minute will obliterate a line firing avg 2 rounds a minute.

I think the reason why this weapon was not adopted was the same for which the fergusson rifle (or rifles in general) were not adopted: bureaucratic red tape and unwillingness in the army to spend money to re-arm their troops.
 
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 17, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: MarineUS on March 17, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
if they are the only thing keeping my country safe at night? Yes.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 17, 2011, 10:17:50 PM
Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin
well, you're a prime example of why the illiterate peasants shouldn't have anything more lethal than a wet noodle...

that air rifle was state of the are for the 18th/19th century...amazing thing is they wouldn't have let you touch it back then either.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: M0nkey_Man on March 17, 2011, 10:34:53 PM
well, you're a prime example of why the illiterate peasants shouldn't have anything more lethal than a wet noodle...

that air rifle was state of the are for the 18th/19th century...amazing thing is they wouldn't have let you touch it back then either.
:rofl
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: clerick on March 18, 2011, 04:46:07 AM
Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

I think your opinion of people back then is a bit skewed.  I'd argue that institutional education not withstanding, those people had far more common sense and far greater knowledge of things you and I know nothing about.  I remember my great grandmother showing me a copy of a test she took back in 1910, she was 9 years old at that time, and I couldn't answer half of the questions that were on it and I have always done well on modern tests; ACT, ASVAB et.c.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Getback on March 18, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
All this time and so many documentaries I have never heard about this gun. Great post!
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Masherbrum on March 18, 2011, 07:40:17 AM
well, you're a prime example of why the illiterate peasants shouldn't have anything more lethal than a wet noodle...

that air rifle was state of the are for the 18th/19th century...amazing thing is they wouldn't have let you touch it back then either.

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl      :aok
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 18, 2011, 09:53:20 AM
Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin

Um, no.  We only trust them to give their lives for us.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Vulcan on March 18, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
I think the reason why this weapon was not adopted was the same for which the fergusson rifle (or rifles in general) were not adopted: bureaucratic red tape and unwillingness in the army to spend money to re-arm their troops.
 

More like complexity and cost of manufacturing. When a war is on you need guns fast.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Sonicblu on March 18, 2011, 07:18:56 PM
Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin

How would a herd of illiterate peasants get rifles worth tens of thousands of dollars?

I recommend you find an appleseed shoot in your area and attend one. If you dont have a rifle I will have one provided for you for the event. Ill even buy your ammo.

Look up Morgans rifle company.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: mtnman on March 18, 2011, 08:16:42 PM
muskets were horribly inaccurate down to 100 yards anyways. The black smoke blocked the view after the first volley so aiming was out of the question..not to mention recoil.
 

Those two sentences are far less accurate than a musket at 100yards.

For starters, black-powder firearms do not produce black smoke.  Recoil isn't bad either, compared to modern center-fire rifles.

I have a .75 Brown Bess musket, accurate to the year 1762.  Flintlock, with an atrociously slow lock, and firing hand-cast lead balls.  It easily shoots a 4" group at 75 yards.  Hitting a paper plate at 100 yards isn't that rough.  It's a fine gun for deer out to 75 yards.  Still deadly beyond that, but I'm not comfortable shooting further with it.

Loaded with shot, I've used it for several turkeys, ducks, pheasants, geese, rabbits and squirrels.

That gun is far less accurate than my flintlock rifle, which is also accurate for the Lewis and Clark time-period.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: ToeTag on March 18, 2011, 10:37:37 PM
Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin

Don't we?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: PFactorDave on March 18, 2011, 11:34:13 PM
Those two sentences are far less accurate than a musket at 100yards.

For starters, black-powder firearms do not produce black smoke.  Recoil isn't bad either, compared to modern center-fire rifles.

I have a .75 Brown Bess musket, accurate to the year 1762.  Flintlock, with an atrociously slow lock, and firing hand-cast lead balls.  It easily shoots a 4" group at 75 yards.  Hitting a paper plate at 100 yards isn't that rough.  It's a fine gun for deer out to 75 yards.  Still deadly beyond that, but I'm not comfortable shooting further with it.

Loaded with shot, I've used it for several turkeys, ducks, pheasants, geese, rabbits and squirrels.

That gun is far less accurate than my flintlock rifle, which is also accurate for the Lewis and Clark time-period.

+1  I have a replica 1777 Charleville musket, with patched balls it is much more accurate then you would expect.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Vulcan on March 19, 2011, 04:06:31 AM
patched balls eh... must be a yank thing  :devil
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: BERN1 on March 19, 2011, 04:30:05 AM
if you watch the video you will see that these guns were used in battle just not over here.
at the time black powder muskets were being massivly produced by every industrialized country,i suspect that cost and availability are the reasons that these were not used by us
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Tac on March 19, 2011, 11:09:03 AM
k not black smoke but smoke. a cloud of grey/white, eye-stinging smoke coming from a line of foot volley will blind the shooter's aiming ability past the first round.

Cost definitely may have been a problem but when you think about it... its nearly 4 times the rate of fire (which was known at the time to be the deciding factor on a musketry fight) you would think that would be worth the re-armament cost. I suspect it was more an issue of politics and bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: 68ZooM on March 19, 2011, 12:58:03 PM
I found it to be very interesting thats why i posted it, but just imagine if we had access to these during our early years as a new nation, i wonder if the outcomes would of changed and/or changed history as we know it.  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 19, 2011, 01:49:27 PM
Don't we?


No, most soldiers know how to read, write and follow quite complex cleaning requirements.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: BERN1 on March 20, 2011, 08:09:28 AM
No, most soldiers know how to read, write and follow quite complex cleaning requirements.

-Penguin
you must be a soldier ...thank you for serving
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 20, 2011, 09:09:00 AM
No, most soldiers know how to read, write and follow quite complex cleaning requirements.

-Penguin
in the 18th/19th century? you should read more...assume less.

all the way through wwi illiteracy was a problem among the ranks of foot soldiers...officers were the educated ones...because their families were rich and could afford to be educated. during the time that air rifle was created, the average soldier could barely spell his name, let alone read an instruction manual (not that any existed)...it wasn't considered necessary for a foot soldier to be able to read, just fire the weapon as they were taught.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Masherbrum on March 20, 2011, 09:12:27 AM
you must be a soldier ...thank you for serving

I hear the sarcasm all the way on the east side of the State.   ;)
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: MarineUS on March 20, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
in the 18th/19th century? you should read more...assume less.

all the way through wwi illiteracy was a problem among the ranks of foot soldiers...officers were the educated ones...because their families were rich and could afford to be educated. during the time that air rifle was created, the average soldier could barely spell his name, let alone read an instruction manual (not that any existed)...it wasn't considered necessary for a foot soldier to be able to read, just fire the weapon as they were taught.
And guess who the ones were making all the biggest mistakes?

Granted not ALL officers were incompetent morons - just the majority. A tradition we seem to carry on to this day.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 20, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
in the 18th/19th century? you should read more...assume less.

all the way through wwi illiteracy was a problem among the ranks of foot soldiers...officers were the educated ones...because their families were rich and could afford to be educated. during the time that air rifle was created, the average soldier could barely spell his name, let alone read an instruction manual (not that any existed)...it wasn't considered necessary for a foot soldier to be able to read, just fire the weapon as they were taught.

My bad.  I meant today's soldiers ought to be literate.  I didn't mean to cause confusion!

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 20, 2011, 03:34:41 PM
And guess who the ones were making all the biggest mistakes?

Granted not ALL officers were incompetent morons - just the majority. A tradition we seem to carry on to this day.
:rofl   :lol  true throughout history there have been few exceptions.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: MaSonZ on March 20, 2011, 04:13:09 PM
I think your opinion of people back then is a bit skewed.  I'd argue that institutional education not withstanding, those people had far more common sense and far greater knowledge of things you and I know nothing about.  I remember my great grandmother showing me a copy of a test she took back in 1910, she was 9 years old at that time, and I couldn't answer half of the questions that were on it and I have always done well on modern tests; ACT, ASVAB et.c.
im in agreement...i'm only 17, have tinkered with odds and ends here and there on cars and the sorts... not completely stupid with them. but I ask my dad something about a car and i give him a breif sentence describing it he pretty well knows the issue...and to think someone had to teach him that knowledge, and so on down the line. The more technological our world gets the less intelligent we as a race get. we need more farming and carpentry, less computers and robots.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 20, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
Well sure, but then we wouldn't know how to use our computers.  All things seems 'simple', 'easy' or 'quick' when discussed in theory.  However, once a field is explored, one realizes that it is not as simple as it seems.  For instance, drawing.  It took me years to learn to draw male and female faces differently (seriously, the shemale or Mr. Nutless guys I created then give grown men pause).

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: MaSonZ on March 20, 2011, 05:31:53 PM
Well sure, but then we wouldn't know how to use our computers.  All things seems 'simple', 'easy' or 'quick' when discussed in theory.  However, once a field is explored, one realizes that it is not as simple as it seems.  For instance, drawing.  It took me years to learn to draw male and female faces differently (seriously, the shemale or Mr. Nutless guys I created then give grown men pause).

-Penguin
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36. who is going to that, unless of course your working for nasa. we dont need a fancy calculator telling us the rise and run with each height and depth for our stringers to put a stair case in. we dont need a fancy $3,000 GPS system to get a farmer from one field to the next while watching a movie in his tractor. calculators are great if your working for Nasa, dont get me wrong, but the other things? really? God gave us brains so we could use them...not be victims of two or 3 genius' patent. its sad how dependant we are on technology for every day things.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 20, 2011, 06:18:56 PM
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36. who is going to that, unless of course your working for nasa. we dont need a fancy calculator telling us the rise and run with each height and depth for our stringers to put a stair case in. we dont need a fancy $3,000 GPS system to get a farmer from one field to the next while watching a movie in his tractor. calculators are great if your working for Nasa, dont get me wrong, but the other things? really? God gave us brains so we could use them...not be victims of two or 3 genius' patent. its sad how dependant we are on technology for every day things.

This is too good to resist.  Humor me in my insanity.

How old are you?  If you're a scholar/student, this attitude is inexcusable. 

How many of us are farmers?  Honestly, have you missed the Industrial Revolution?

Victims?  How are we victims?  If we can use technology to do the legwork, why not?  We still know how to add, subtract and multiply.  It'll take longer, but give me a piece of paper and I can (theoretically) add, subtract or multiply any two infinitely large numbers.

Math is art, it has limited practical applicability, but if you get past all the excercises and textbooks, math is actually FUN.  Try coming up with a formula for determining how many seconds you've been alive, or how many girlfriends you will have annually.  Math is fun, it's just that school makes it seem like drudgery.

Not to insult you, but you need to realize that computation isn't the end of math.  In fact, it's the one thing that keeps it from being fun.  Who would like to do the long division for:

34,122,235,463
2,347,892,345,989,235

Math is really about stuff like this: ei*3.14159...=-1 

I'm sorry for my rant, but many fail to realize how wonderful math can be. 

-Pengun
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 21, 2011, 08:41:33 AM
ya, math is great...like stale bread...eat it if you're starving but not if you have a choice.

the only math i consider essential is windage and elevation...the rest is like english to a thai farmer.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 21, 2011, 08:58:45 AM
im in agreement...i'm only 17, have tinkered with odds and ends here and there on cars and the sorts... not completely stupid with them. but I ask my dad something about a car and i give him a breif sentence describing it he pretty well knows the issue...and to think someone had to teach him that knowledge, and so on down the line. The more technological our world gets the less intelligent we as a race get. we need more farming and carpentry, less computers and robots.

I agree.  Knowing about cars = intelligence.  Digging a trench = intelligence.  Making computers and robots = stupid  :aok
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: MarineUS on March 21, 2011, 02:25:57 PM
the only math i consider essential is windage and elevation...the rest is like english to a thai farmer.
According to the surroundings, I'm going to need 1 click right. Should be center. ;)

One shot....
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 21, 2011, 03:15:06 PM
According to the surroundings, I'm going to need 1 click right. Should be center. ;)

One shot....
i was thinking 3 clicks but then i'm seeing debris flying around...  :t
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Vudak on March 21, 2011, 03:20:00 PM


Math is art, it has limited practical applicability, but if you get past all the excercises and textbooks, math is actually FUN.  Try coming up with a formula for determining how many seconds you've been alive, or how many girlfriends you will have annually.  Math is fun, it's just that school makes it seem like drudgery.


Come on now, at least give yourself a bit of a challenge!  :D  :P
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 21, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
I agree.  Knowing about cars = intelligence.  Digging a trench = intelligence.  Making computers and robots = stupid  :aok

If you wish to reclaim whatever shred of dignity you have left, please support your point.  I will support mine.

Making computers and robots is not "stupid".  Computers run almost any car with nowadays; unless you're an antique collector, understanding your CPU is quite important when tuning.  In fact, without your CPU, your engine would overheat, cracking the block.  You can already see how important computers are to cars.

Digging a trench can be made easier by using a computer to plan it (assuming that it is a long enough trench).  Have you ever heard of the Engineering Design Process?  It entails quite a bit of mental legwork before you even touch that shovel.  The trench needs definite dimesions, and must fit within the surrounding obstacles.  A computer can model those surroundings and make digging the trench a simple matter of following the plan.

If you consider building computers and robots stupid, consier this as well.  One who could be considered the brightest in the county (he is 16 and a sophmore in college), is still baffled by technical problems arising from the building of our school's robot for our F.I.R.S.T. competition.  Building a computer isn't easy, either.

To build a computer, one must put together a dizzying array of parts, screws and delicate components.  Firstly, you will need (at least for a desktop) a motherboard to hook it all into, and then: a power cord, a hardrive, RAM, graphics card, mouse, keyboard, monitor, input jacks, output jacks, power button, CD/DVD drive, cooling fan(s), processor, and the wires, screws and aluminum to connect it all.

All technical things require intelligence, do not let your limited knowledge of a field allow you to assume its simplicity.

-Penguin

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Motherland on March 21, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
snip
You should get better at detecting sarcasm
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36.
It's certainly a lot more convenient than doing it by hand...
Of course, some stupid idiot came up with the idea for the calculator instead of milking his cows and working in the fields...

Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin
While poorly articulated, this is probably largely correct. These weapons were probably too complex to be produced cheaply enough and in large enough numbers to become a standard issue weapon, as well as being too complex to be maintained in the field.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: mtnman on March 21, 2011, 08:48:07 PM
These weapons were probably too complex to be produced cheaply enough and in large enough numbers to become a standard issue weapon, as well as being too complex to be maintained in the field.

In the early to mid-1800's, annual income for an average worker was something like $400 - $600.  A muzzle-loading rifle cost roughly $150.  The rifle cost 1/4 to 1/3 of an average persons annual salary... 

Also, almost every single gun was individually created.  No real standardization of parts.  That didn't really happen much until the mid-1800's.  Even as late as the civil war, just providing ammunition was a hassle because the weapons weren't standardized enough. 

Prior to that, the gunsmith hand-made his gun barrel, and then hand-made the gun around that.  When it was finished, he hand-made a mold for the bullets for that individual rifle.  Nowadays, we have muzzle=loading rifles in standard .32, .44, .45, .50, .54, etc.  We use standard 44, .49, .53 balls, etc...

Back then my rifle might have used a .525 ball, while your "identical" rifle made by the same smith might need a .510 ball.

Really, as interesting as it was/is, the "air" rifle never went anywhere...  It's still considered a "toy".  I've been looking, and haven't found any real data on the Lewis and Clark rifle.  What kind of FPS did it produce?  How did it vary after several shots?  The guy in the video really doesn't give any factual information regarding accuracy or velocity.  Breaking through a 1" board at 100yds doesn't mean all that much, IMO. 

For accuracy, the rifle would rely on a tight fit in the rifling, and that was known at the time. 

In every other rifle at the time, that was achieved with a tight-fitting patch/ball combination.  No bullets (or very few anyway) were being loaded from the breach, and none were contained in cartridges.  That means several things...  For one, all muzzle-loaded balls were "undersized", so would simply roll out of the barrel if the gun was tipped (the patch prevented that).  But with breech-loaded projectiles the ball/bullet is over-sized, so gets "slammed" into the rear of the rifling (engaging the rifling and sealing the bore). 

The air rifle would have needed the latter...  And if it used over-sized balls it would have required substantial pressure to form the ball to the rifling and seal the bore.  Without doing that, accuracy would suffer greatly, as would velocity.  For a repeater, that would have also meant wasted energy as compressed air passed around the ball as it traveled (bounced?) down the bore.  Modern air-rifles get best accuracy with skirted pellets that flare open from the rear to engage the rifling and seal the bore.  Those type of projectiles weren't used until the civil war (half a life-time after Lewis and Clark).

Honestly, it's a cool gun.  But I think it's being over-hyped.  It never went anywhere, and never saw much use/popularity beyond that of a toy.  My guess is that one big reason is that compressed air simply isn't as easy and efficient as a mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate.  That's also why it isn't replacing gasoline as a fuel, even though it can be used to turn over a motor.

It had usefulness as "show" with the native people L and C came across, but I doubt anyone would have been rushing for that weapon over a standard black powder weapon (or a knife) had a battle come up.  L and C took a small cannon for the same reason (show).  Keep in mind, the first powder-operated firearms used in battle were mostly for "show" as well!
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Masherbrum on March 21, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
If you wish to reclaim whatever shred of dignity you have left, please support your point.  I will support mine.

Making computers and robots is not "stupid".  Computers run almost any car with nowadays; unless you're an antique collector, understanding your CPU is quite important when tuning.  In fact, without your CPU, your engine would overheat, cracking the block.  You can already see how important computers are to cars.

Digging a trench can be made easier by using a computer to plan it (assuming that it is a long enough trench).  Have you ever heard of the Engineering Design Process?  It entails quite a bit of mental legwork before you even touch that shovel.  The trench needs definite dimesions, and must fit within the surrounding obstacles.  A computer can model those surroundings and make digging the trench a simple matter of following the plan.

If you consider building computers and robots stupid, consier this as well.  One who could be considered the brightest in the county (he is 16 and a sophmore in college), is still baffled by technical problems arising from the building of our school's robot for our F.I.R.S.T. competition.  Building a computer isn't easy, either.

To build a computer, one must put together a dizzying array of parts, screws and delicate components.  Firstly, you will need (at least for a desktop) a motherboard to hook it all into, and then: a power cord, a hardrive, RAM, graphics card, mouse, keyboard, monitor, input jacks, output jacks, power button, CD/DVD drive, cooling fan(s), processor, and the wires, screws and aluminum to connect it all.

All technical things require intelligence, do not let your limited knowledge of a field allow you to assume its simplicity.

-Penguin

-Penguin

Irony is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 22, 2011, 08:42:59 AM
Thanks for the spellcheck.  Care to make a point of any substance?

If you are bent on having perfect spelling, here is my fixed post.

If you wish to reclaim whatever shred of dignity you have left, please support your point.  I will support mine.

Making computers and robots is not "stupid".  Computers run almost any car with nowadays; unless you're an antique collector, understanding your CPU is quite important when tuning.  In fact, without your CPU, your engine would overheat, cracking the block.  You can already see how important computers are to cars.

Digging a trench can be made easier by using a computer to plan it (assuming that it is a long enough trench).  Have you ever heard of the Engineering Design Process?  It entails quite a bit of mental legwork before you even touch that shovel.  The trench needs definite dimensions, and must fit within the surrounding obstacles.  A computer can model those surroundings and make digging the trench a simple matter of following the plan.

If you consider building computers and robots stupid, consider this as well.  One who could be considered the brightest in the county (he is 16 and a sophomore in college), is still baffled by technical problems arising from the building of our school's robot for our F.I.R.S.T. competition.  Building a computer isn't easy, either.

To build a computer, one must put together a dizzying array of parts, screws and delicate components.  Firstly, you will need (at least for a desktop) a motherboard to hook it all into, and then: a power cord, a hard drive, RAM, graphics card, mouse, keyboard, monitor, input jacks, output jacks, power button, CD/DVD drive, cooling fan(s), processor, and the wires, screws and aluminum to connect it all.

All technical things require intelligence, do not let your limited knowledge of a field allow you to assume its simplicity.

-Penguin


My spelling errors are beside the point.  I ask you again, please come up with an intelligent rebuttal.

-Penguin

PS LET THE GAMES, BEGIN!  :salute
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 09:52:49 AM
Thanks for the spellcheck.  Care to make a point of any substance?

If you are bent on having perfect spelling, here is my fixed post.

If you wish to reclaim whatever shred of dignity you have left, please support your point.  I will support mine.

Making computers and robots is not "stupid".  Computers run almost any car with nowadays; unless you're an antique collector, understanding your CPU is quite important when tuning.  In fact, without your CPU, your engine would overheat, cracking the block.  You can already see how important computers are to cars.

Digging a trench can be made easier by using a computer to plan it (assuming that it is a long enough trench).  Have you ever heard of the Engineering Design Process?  It entails quite a bit of mental legwork before you even touch that shovel.  The trench needs definite dimensions, and must fit within the surrounding obstacles.  A computer can model those surroundings and make digging the trench a simple matter of following the plan.

If you consider building computers and robots stupid, consider this as well.  One who could be considered the brightest in the county (he is 16 and a sophomore in college), is still baffled by technical problems arising from the building of our school's robot for our F.I.R.S.T. competition.  Building a computer isn't easy, either.

To build a computer, one must put together a dizzying array of parts, screws and delicate components.  Firstly, you will need (at least for a desktop) a motherboard to hook it all into, and then: a power cord, a hard drive, RAM, graphics card, mouse, keyboard, monitor, input jacks, output jacks, power button, CD/DVD drive, cooling fan(s), processor, and the wires, screws and aluminum to connect it all.

All technical things require intelligence, do not let your limited knowledge of a field allow you to assume its simplicity.

-Penguin


My spelling errors are beside the point.  I ask you again, please come up with an intelligent rebuttal.

-Penguin

PS LET THE GAMES, BEGIN!  :salute


 :rofl  I would drop it while there is still time.  Then again, you could teach me a bit about computers.  Maybe I ll be able to get my VCR to stop flashing 12:00 all the time.  Stupid computer don;t even know what time it is unless I tell it.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 09:53:32 AM
Irony is a wonderful thing.

 :O
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Masherbrum on March 22, 2011, 01:17:09 PM
:O
:joystick:
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 01:25:32 PM
:joystick:


Did you ever not go fishing and still catch a big one?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Masherbrum on March 22, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
Did you ever not go fishing and still catch a big one?

Absolutely!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 22, 2011, 03:07:21 PM
:rofl  I would drop it while there is still time.  Then again, you could teach me a bit about computers.  Maybe I ll be able to get my VCR to stop flashing 12:00 all the time.  Stupid computer don;t even know what time it is unless I tell it.

Stupid trench doesn't exist unless I dig it...

Trenches and Computers are both human inventions, they require us to think of and build them.  Of course the computer needs you to set the time, how should it know where it is?

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: mtnman on March 22, 2011, 03:10:44 PM
Stupid trench doesn't exist unless I dig it...

Trenches and Computers are both human inventions, they require us to think of and build them.  Of course the computer needs you to set the time, how should it know where it is?

-Penguin

How does the computer know where the trench needs to go?  Doesn't someone need to tell it that too?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 03:13:34 PM
Stupid trench doesn't exist unless I dig it...

Trenches and Computers are both human inventions, they require us to think of and build them.  Of course the computer needs you to set the time, how should it know where it is?

-Penguin

Um, it does have a clock you know.  Why can't it just look it up?
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 22, 2011, 03:15:54 PM
Stupid trench doesn't exist unless I dig it...

Trenches and Computers are both human inventions, they require us to think of and build them.  Of course the computer needs you to set the time, how should it know where it is?

-Penguin
Actually the trench is not a human invention, it's a process of erosion in nature that humans have learned to do in a more logical manner for convenience.

The trench is easy enough even you could do it. The computer requires the work of many to get right so that just one 1d10t can look at pictures. Over the course of time the 1d10t forgets how to read or write anything that isn't grossly and improperly abbreviated or has lol in it. However the trench digger has learned how to communicate both verbally and in writing and is now telling the 1d10t how and where to dig the trench.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 22, 2011, 03:18:26 PM
Yes, a computer is a tool.  It needs a human being to operate it (apart from things such as AI- another can of worms).  I never said that computers are all powerful beings capable of doing anything and everything.  I said that building computers and designing trenches requires intelligence.

Um, it does have a clock you know.  Why can't it just look it up?

Yes, but when you take it out of the box, it asks you what time it is.  From then on, if you move across time zones it will require that you reset the clock.  Otherwise, it should keep the time nearly perfectly (assuming it updates itself from the internet).

Actually the trench is not a human invention, it's a process of erosion in nature that humans have learned to do in a more logical manner for convenience.

The trench is easy enough even you could do it. The computer requires the work of many to get right so that just one 1d10t can look at pictures. Over the course of time the 1d10t forgets how to read or write anything that isn't grossly and improperly abbreviated or has lol in it. However the trench digger has learned how to communicate both verbally and in writing and is now telling the 1d10t how and where to dig the trench.

I apologize, I incorrectly assumed we were referring to man-made trenches.  Yes, trenches can be formed by erosion- but for the sake of the argument let's assume that they are man-made. 

You are also extrapolating the results of many trials from the results of one (possibly a friend's).  You are also exaggerating and fear mongering.  What you are saying simply isn't true.  Look at the forum community, there are plenty of intelligent people who use computers.  Furthermore, if this effect is so powerful, why can you read what I say?

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Yes, a computer is a tool.  It needs a human being to operate it (apart from things such as AI- another can of worms).  I never said that computers are all powerful beings capable of doing anything and everything.  I said that building computers and designing trenches requires intelligence.

Yes, but when you take it out of the box, it asks you what time it is.  From then on, if you move across time zones it will require that you reset the clock.  Otherwise, it should keep the time nearly perfectly (assuming it updates itself from the internet).

-Penguin

Sounds like it can't even keep track of time unless someone corrects it once in a while.  I don;t understand how people trust them to make decisions involving life support or trading and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 22, 2011, 03:23:35 PM
Sounds like it can't even keep track of time unless someone corrects it once in a while.  I don;t understand how people trust them to make decisions involving life support or trading and stuff like that.

It does keep track of time, it's just that if you go to a new time zone (for instance, from Eastern Standard Time to Central Mountain Time), you need to reset the time.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: dedalos on March 22, 2011, 03:35:05 PM
It does keep track of time, it's just that if you go to a new time zone (for instance, from Eastern Standard Time to Central Mountain Time), you need to reset the time.

-Penguin

Got it.  At list I m still holding on to whatever shred of dignity I have left.  I assume you are young so I ll leave it alone.

Read back foo!  :neener:
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: mtnman on March 22, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
It does keep track of time, it's just that if you go to a new time zone (for instance, from Eastern Standard Time to Central Mountain Time), you need to reset the time.

-Penguin

I've gone to lots of different time zones, and never reset the time on my computer.  It always still had the "right" time on it when I got home.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: BrockS on March 22, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
Read "Undauted Courage" about the L & C expedition. Merriwether Lewis used to demonstrate it to the indians as sort of an ice breaker as he encountered new tribes along his way.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: BrockS on March 22, 2011, 04:55:09 PM
I'm an A-hole!...LOL I posted before watching the vid. Sorry
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: gyrene81 on March 22, 2011, 04:58:32 PM
You are also extrapolating the results of many trials from the results of one (possibly a friend's).  You are also exaggerating and fear mongering.  What you are saying simply isn't true.  Look at the forum community, there are plenty of intelligent people who use computers.  Furthermore, if this effect is so powerful, why can you read what I say?

-Penguin
extrapolating results? exaggerating and fear mongering? the people within this forum are just a microcosm of the overall population, hardly an example for what you're trying to assert. although there is a good segment who through the use of technology have lost the basic abilities learned in elementary school and, common sense has no more meaning than two words in the english language. you may live in some backwoods hole in the wall town where people haven't succumbed to the ignorance technology has brought to the masses but, i can tell you from a lifetime of travelling and spending time in many different places, the few who can build and/or utilize technology to improve themselves are by far outnumbered by those who have become ignorant with it.
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: Penguin on March 22, 2011, 07:07:32 PM
Not to nitpick, but a microcosm is a small world representative of the world at large.

I do not live in the middle of nowhere, (although there are few things to do here), I live near a major city.  I know plenty of people who use technology, and they are just fine.  What abilities have they lost?  Grammar?  I see typical teenage writing when we peer-review papers, but nothing resembling OMG BFF LOL.

I've gone to lots of different time zones, and never reset the time on my computer.  It always still had the "right" time on it when I got home.

You are correct, sir.  I should have added that the computer in question does not automatically update the time based on a reliable source.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
Post by: BERN1 on March 28, 2011, 04:34:23 PM
Quote
That's also why it isn't replacing gasoline as a fuel, even though it can be used to turn over a motor.

sorry I had to do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJeMnZuOOJU