Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Warty on March 19, 2011, 12:51:10 AM
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I've flown I dunno, maybe 25% of the AH planeset so far. I don't even think I qualify for "rusty". "Decrepit", maybe. Anyway, I decided I would just stick with the P-47M for now, and see what I can do to get better in that one plane. I was flying against JUGler once a couple weeks ago, and he was in a Jug, I was probably P51, and I had some alt on him, and he revved on me so quickly I still don't know how he got me. All of a sudden he was in a HO position. blammo.
I've read Soda's P47D eval (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P47D40.htm). Are there any other writeups with Jug advice and tactics? preferably, really detailed?
even basic stuff, like what do Jug experts use for convergence and fuel tactics would help.
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I've flown I dunno, maybe 25% of the AH planeset so far. I don't even think I qualify for "rusty". "Decrepit", maybe. Anyway, I decided I would just stick with the P-47M for now, and see what I can do to get better in that one plane. I was flying against JUGler once a couple weeks ago, and he was in a Jug, I was probably P51, and I had some alt on him, and he revved on me so quickly I still don't know how he got me. All of a sudden he was in a HO position. blammo.
I've read Soda's P47D eval (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P47D40.htm). Are there any other writeups with Jug advice and tactics? preferably, really detailed?
even basic stuff, like what do Jug experts use for convergence and fuel tactics would help.
Hmm, If you are saying that I HOed you, I would seriously doubt that! Now if you would like some help just give me PM when you see me in the MA and I will happily go to the DA/TA (your choice) and help you out! :aok
convergence- traditionaly I have set all guns to 300, I am working now with one bank at 250 and each bank there after set 25 yards further out/
Fuel:
Base defence- 50% and a drop
Anything past the radar circle- 75% and a drop
In the D11, D25 or the M sometimes I will take 75% - 100% respectively as I've found the added weight helps with E retention on these 3 JUGS. E retention is not a problem with the D40 or the N. The down side here is you will turn poorly but vs E monsters like corsairs it helps get angles in the initial stages of the fight IF your opponent is of poor to average quality ;)
Hope this helps :salute
JUGgler
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Warty it's likely that you need general ACM help before you need P-47 specific training.
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JUGler:
Didn't mean to imply you took a lame HO, it was just a complete surprise for me to see you facing me. It was some kind of front-quarter shot, completely legit. Thanks for the offer of help, I'll take you up on that soon!
cc on conv. and gas info. I noticed you with a drop tank yesterday, thought maybe that was helpful. I will try that next time. I run out of gas A LOT.
FLS: I don't disagree. I guess my point is that I want to try and stick mainly with one plane while getting back on my feet, to reduce the amount of variability in the equation. And I like the Jug, and the 8 .50s :). I'd love to go to one of the training sessions, but I can't ever get on before 10:30 pm Eastern (kids etc), so I end up missing them. hell, I don't even know what I don't know at this point :)
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You can fly the P-47 for general ACM training. Trainers are available at different times for 1v1 training in addition to the clinics and training events. I generally train Saturday mornings ET.
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#1) If you are on a JUG and he tail slides to kill you its not a HO.....
#2) hmmm..... nevermind, baby steps
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JUGgler would you please explain the thinking for setting your guns for such a wide convergence range? Are you doing this because you never go after bombers? I do take the odd shot or two at buffs and find that I need all rounds hitting the same place.
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JUGgler would you please explain the thinking for setting your guns for such a wide convergence range? Are you doing this because you never go after bombers? I do take the odd shot or two at buffs and find that I need all rounds hitting the same place.
Blame it on the silly brewster, I've found in a close grinder with small turny dork rides :) "all guns" at 300 sometimes converge past the target. My "window" to PWN said dork rides is very small, if I miss a couple crossing shots I'm pretty much screwed. I decided to spread them out so they act more like a shotgun. Converging incrimentally at 25 yds doesn't seem to be too far apart. My gunnery is off at the moment but I think it's cause I've been flyin the jet quite a bit. Still not sold on the new convergence setting but I will keep at it and decide to keep it or go back soon!
I'm an "opportunist bomber killer" I do not hunt them, I would much rather turn fight brewsters then go after bombers :aok
JUGgler
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In the D11, D25 or the M sometimes I will take 75% - 100% respectively as I've found the added weight helps with E retention on these 3 JUGS. E retention is not a problem with the D40 or the N. The down side here is you will turn poorly but vs E monsters like corsairs it helps get angles in the initial stages of the fight IF your opponent is of poor to average quality ;)
This just ain't so Jug-there have been posts on the forum with the math to explain it before-but the gist is that adding weight to your plane hurts, rather than helps E retention. (It does NOT work the same as using heavier bullets in a rifle for more energy retention down range.)
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This just ain't so Jug-there have been posts on the forum with the math to explain it before-but the gist is that adding weight to your plane hurts, rather than helps E retention. (It does NOT work the same as using heavier bullets in a rifle for more energy retention down range.)
Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention IMO.
JUGgler
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oops. posted this here, but meant to put it in the "i love p47M" thread over in general.
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Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention IMO.
JUGgler
Do some searches for the pertinent threads...I'm too lazy...gist is, it's been tested, charts have been posted, load a plane heavier, unloaded zoom climb decreases. Now having a lower drag *in relation to weight* than the next plane is great, all things being equal, however, the ratio of thrust vrs. weight and drag of the airframe is far more important. Now if the airframes were being shot straight up out of a cannon at the same velocity with the engines shut off, then yes, the heavier Jug would probably zoom higher, however, that tactic is rarely used in the MA. :noid
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Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention IMO.
JUGgler
Just to confirm what BnZ said, you want to fight the Jug as light as possible. Higher weight is nothing but a performance penalty, regardless of what you perceive. In all models, regardless of total fuel quantity, I like to be at about half a tank in a fight. Anything more than that and it wants to mush. Luckily, that gas guzzler up front will help you get there in a hurry. That being said, I usually take off with 75% in all models but the D-11, where I take 100%. But, that's accounting for the fuel I use climbing up and cruising to the fight. Learn to get back to base with 1/8th of a tank, and when you're at 1/4 tank or so, all models really start to get nimble, relatively speaking, especially once you've blown through half your ammo or so (because you're carrying several hundred pounds of ammo as well). With all the extra power, I really like fighting Ns and Ms at 1/4 tank--they can really power through a hard turn until they get completely out of E.
I personally set my convergence at 300 on all guns, unless I'm doing some dedicated buff hunting, then I push them out to 400. That being said, the most lethal guy I know in a Jug, Wolfala, likes a shotgun spread on his Jug, starting at 375 and increasing each pair by 25 yards up to 450 on the last pair. So, I'd say do what works best for you.
Remember that 7,000 feet gives you enough altitude to accelerate to 500mph in a dive, which will allow you to escape most everything else that's not already doing 500mph. Never use more than 3 notches of flaps in the beginning. If you can't get the shot with 3 notches, you're probably not going to get it.
The Jug has a ton of rudder authority, and sometimes I'll actually skid inside of a turn to get a shot against something I can't quite out turn. About the only things you can out turn are 190s and P-51s, so don't try that until you get savvy enough.
When doing classic BnZ, make sure your zoom climbs are unloaded. Pull a few G's to get your nose up, relax the stick, and then let Pratt and Whitney do the rest. I recommend never letting your airspeed get lower than 200-250 indicated during the zoom before you level off or get the nose back down to recover speed. The Jug really wallows at low speed, so to preserve some maneuverability at the top of the zoom, spare some airspeed.
Against bombers, use very high angle 6 o'clock attacks. Executed properly, the top gunner positions can't track you as you drop almost vertically into the formation. The caliber .50 works best against the bomber wing roots to start fuel fires instead of pumping rounds into the fuselage.
Last, stay as fast as possible as long as possible the whole time you're up. Always have some airspeed held in reserve during this beginning period--it will save your bacon if you get jumped.
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Remember that 7,000 feet gives you enough altitude to accelerate to 500mph in a dive, which will allow you to .
:huh
Most of my fine artistry is performed below 500' :aok
JUGgler
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That being said, the most lethal guy I know in a Jug, Wolfala
Umm, I think YUCCA and NOMDE are on top of the JUG ladder, YUCCA getting a slight edge for his "slow" control of the beast IMHO <-- "very humble opinion" :t
JUGgler
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Umm, I think YUCCA and NOMDE are on top of the JUG ladder, YUCCA getting a slight edge for his "slow" control of the beast IMHO <-- "very humble opinion" :t
JUGgler
Notice I said "most lethal" and not the best stick. Wolfala is probably in the top 5 top Jug sticks, but he is the most lethal I know of. He can land 10 kills in one P-47N sortie easily and that reference was in regard to setting up guns, not ACM. BluKitty is the top stick, in my opinion, with Yucca being a close 2nd. Nomde is up there as well, but its just my opinion.
And, as far as the altitude suggestion I made--this guy is just starting out in the Jug. If he tries flying around 500' AGL trying to learn to fight the plane, he will fail, get discouraged, and move on to something else. Just because you can do it doesn't mean its something he should try in the first few months of trying to learn the plane. Heck, I've turn-fought Spit 16's in a November Jug and won, but I'm not going to advise anyone starting out to do that until they know what they can get away with. Crawl-walk-run. Once he learns the basics on how to fight and survive, then he can figure out just how far out on the ragged edge he wants to take it.
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I guess I have been gone for so long I have been forgotten. :rolleyes:
Vlkyrie1
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I just printed the info from warty's original post, is the D-30 similar to the D-40?. I'm finding that when flying the D-11 taking a DT and 75% fuel then letting the dt go after I get to 15k seems to work best for me. I am still trying to get used to the spread convergence you mention juggler, but it does seem to help so thanks.
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I just printed the info from warty's original post, is the D-30 similar to the D-40?. I'm finding that when flying the D-11 taking a DT and 75% fuel then letting the dt go after I get to 15k seems to work best for me. I am still trying to get used to the spread convergence you mention juggler, but it does seem to help so thanks.
I will say this in all honesty. If you want to improve in the JUG "or any plane for that matter" you must put yourself in positions that are difficult to come out "smelling like roses" from. Being at the disadvantage most of the time will teach you great defensive flying as welll as expedite your learning of "turning the tables" on your foe! I would suggest a "personal commitment" on your part to never go above 5K unless actively in a fight! 5K is plenty of alt for any plane to equalize E states at the critical moment! After being shot down zillions of times you will begin to see the light!
One very important tidbit about JUG flying, If you win, in almost all cases it is cause your opponent made a mistake. The JUG is outclassed by virtually every "reasonable" fighter in the game! so you could say the "default" setting on the JUG is to LOSE! :aok
JUGgler
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I'm finding that when flying the D-11 taking a DT and 75% fuel then letting the dt go after I get to 15k seems to work best for me.
You'll climb a bit faster with the extra internal fuel instead of the drop tank. The weight is about the same, but you don't have the drag. If the centerline was bigger, I'd go with it, but at 75 gallons, I go internal. YMMV
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This is all great information, more graduate or Phd level info. I think the first trick is don't meet JUGler in combat. haha
I would start with basic concepts like barrel rolls, low n hi yo-yo, what a boom and zoom is versus turn and burn. After some of the basic manuevers, learning to watch speed, I would shift into the set-up, when to engage, etc. Before, during and after that working on gunnery. I do all of my guns at 400m, though I never fly the Jug.
About the only real add to this thread is consider most of the great pilots are BnZ and when it comes to turn fighting they get fancy with stall turns. All the rest seems to be rookie stuff.
Just my observations.
Boo
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Couldn't get an N or an M tonight because of rook #s, but had fun in a D-25. Had 1 four kill hop where I think I never made it over 5k. Mostly luck though.
What would you do with a spit at 8-10k, and you at 5k? I had that tonight, did a split S the first time, but the second time, he followed me in the split S, and so I started a rolling scissors, but I wasn't watching my speed and crapped out at the top of one of my rolls and got blasted. The spit really didn't overshoot much on the 2nd splitS (at all), so I think maybe he shed some speed to stay with me.
also: when you are at top of zoom, are you using anything fancy to turn around? When I get under 150/125 at the top of a zoom, the jug is just wallowing around. I'd like to do rudder reversals or even a hammerhead, but not good enough to get it to work. Do you typically just do a wingover in a jug? I followed an F4U up today and watched him to a sweet rudder reversal right in front of me.
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I think the first trick is don't meet JUGler in combat. haha
I disagree. Part of learning how to fight in a plane is learning not to run away, or avoid, an opponent. Fighting back has more rewards than running away, even if it means getting shot down.
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J
If you can't get the shot with 3 notches, you're probably not going to get it.
Iirc, two notches of flaps give best sustained turn rate, which is what most people are thinking of when considering "out-turning" the other fellow.
If bandit alts are high or variable, one might consider cruising somewhat higher than normal, in the 15K-20K range. This ensures that one will either A. Join battle at alts where the Jug's MIL/cruise speed is more competitive than other rides or B. Generally have the drop on the fight.
I've done alot of time in the D-11 in the furball lake. The thing the Jug does well besides boom and zoom and roll is dump speed and fly slow well. Note, I didn't say turn well at low speeds, I said fly well...it will just sort of sit there at ridiculously low speeds. Lots of people will fly by. But note this strategy is a *last* resort, it may work well against the bandit you are fighting, it also leaves you exceedingly vulnerable to the 20 or so other buzzards.
I'll add one more thing-conserve WEP. Come into the battle with the full five minutes, look for a breather to cool it if you look like you are getting close to running out. All Jugs gain tremendously from WEP; In the M and N WEP is the difference between being a LW monster and a pant-load.
Dear Juggler: You have a right to your opinion. However, I already know I am a reasonable "duellist". I have no need to fly as you do, and give up kills to those whose "skill" consists of flying spixteens and N1Kis in large groups to prove anything. The MA is a place of dirty, rotten, pirate stuff. Be the most heinous pirate of them all, I say!
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Just to confirm what BnZ said, you want to fight the Jug as light as possible. Higher weight is nothing but a performance penalty, regardless of what you perceive.
I agree in general but there are specific benefits to zooming with a heavier plane. This isn't perception as much as proven through experience. It was most evident to me in some P-40E duels in the DA I had some years back. I wasn't having much success until I took 50% or 75% fuel. A better pilot in the lighter plane was out turning me, but if I merged and just out zoomed him I continued up noticably higher than him and he stalled out several times in his 25%-loaded plane. I was able to roll back down on him much easier. Was about the only time I got a decent kill on him. [edit; He actually complimented me on my E retention too]
Note, however, you're trading turning ability. After 1 or 2 ropes like this he pulled a turn too tight for me to get lead on as I dove down on him for the kill and after that he was able to manuver around me. However if I just wanted pure BnZ that extra fuel meant the difference between being dead in 5 seconds vs a prolonged fight with me above the other guy.
Really depends on if you want to do ANY turning or not. If not, the extra fuel could help in zoom climbs.
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Really depends on if you want to do ANY turning or not. If not, the extra fuel could help in zoom climbs.
Extra weight never helps in zoom climbs. Mace (F-14 pilot) made that very clear in another thread about the subject. I can't find it quickly, but its out there. However, with a lot of weight, if you use low-G maneuvers in the vertical, it will minimize the penalty.
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This thread is useless without films. :neener:
RE: Staggered convergence. If you use 65o as a max and stagger back every 25 yards you get a second convergence @ 300 yards for each wing bank of guns.
It didn't really work for me though.
wrongway
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I have been trying to learn the Jug for the last 5 months.. Mostly the M, and I use the D40 for Jarbo. The N seems to catch fire, after the 1st ping because of all the fuel.
I have learned that this game is hard. The learning curve is insane, and the jUg is probably not or even close to the 1st plane a person should begin with.
Secondly if it was easy everyone would be doing it. The DA would be full of 47 M's instead of Tyhpoon's, Tempest's and spit 16's.
I have a LONG way to go but have found that using the Jugs big ailerons to roll at high speeds seems to work in a flat scissors. Also I agree with the jugs ability to dump speed quick and fly at 78mph and watch people fly by. That however leaves you with no speed or time to build up any speed.
My last point from someone just learning, is dare I say a complaint and question. I have finally been able to swing my Jug around fast enough to land hits on other planes. Convergence at 35o, landed in close. ONlY to watch them fly away or shoot me down with no damage to their plane? 8 .50 calibers should be a tad more damaging? I have the clips saved? Is it me or does 8 .50's in this game pack a weak punch?
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IIs it me or does 8 .50's in this game pack a weak punch?
The key with Mother Deuce is to make the rounds all hit in the same place. With a point convergence and good gunnery, you should be able to knock down just about every fighter in-game with no more than a one second burst, excepting maybe the F6F, other P-47s, or FW-190A8s. If you're scattering rounds up and down the fuselage, don't expect decisive results.
Good luck though--I thought the rest of your comments were very helpful to the OP...
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I agree Jug is a terrible choice for a first plane for newbies. I'm like a pseudo-newbie: remember a decent amount of stuff about ACM/etc, have forgotten more; have very little AH-specific knowledge, and have lost a lot of muscle memory and timing (my gunnery is crap for example). I'm also struggling a bit with a switch to the eye camera view thing (can't think of it's name), rather than fixed views on a hat.
OTOH, I'm really enjoying the jug. I found out the "Dueling Arena" is really the "Furball Arena" a couple nights ago, and have been having a blast in there. (I thought it was a kind of 1 on 1 arena for folks who had insulted each other publicly in the MA or something). Sticking with 1 plane is helping, I think.
My feeling so far is that the LA-7 is the scariest opponent I see for a jug. Not sure if I'm right about that, but sure feels that way. I don't even want to engage them when I have an E advantage. Unless they are glued to someone's six.
Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone had some P47 films that would be useful for Jug newbies to watch. Films with good offensive or defensive maneuvers, etc.